What Is This About "Liberals Hate The Founding Fathers?"

[BamaLefty]

I've also heard it said that they only one that liberals like is Thomas Jefferson because it is believed that he had a child w/ a slave.

Off the top of my head, it sounds like just another tired RW, trivial argument.

But try to clear this up for me. I'm only 17 y/o, so my knowledge of history is a little lacking. All of our history teachers are just sports coaches...

[Straight Shooter]

1. Repubs just try to link the word "hate" with "liberals" every which way.

Liberals hate this, liberals hate that, blah-blah-blah. Every other word out of a Repub's mouth is hate.

They're the ones who despise the Founding Fathers and are doing everything in their power (and out of their power) to undo the foundation which formed America.

[evlbstrd]

2. Coming here was the first step to your education.

Yes, we love Jefferson. But it has nothing to do with a love child.
Watch what happens after this post.

[smoogatz]

3. Liberals LOVE the founding fathers

those wise, dead white guys who wrote great stuff into the Constitution like guarantees for free speech and equal protection and separation of church and state. Know what's NOT in the Constitution? Any mention of God or Jesus Christ. So don't let anybody try to tell you this country is based on Christianity, or Judeo-Christian principles, or whatever. The framers knew that kings--like George III--claimed to rule by divine right. But in a Democracy, they reasoned, all power is derived from the informed consent of the people. Got that? Power comes from the people in a Democracy--NOT from God. Pretty cool, huh?

[punpirate]

4. It's pretty much an extended myth...

... that the right has pushed as part of the "our nation was founded as a Christian nation routine."

To clarify terms, the Founding Fathers is the generally accepted term for the people who drafted the Constitution. The religious right would rather the term mean the first settlers, and by extension, the Puritans and Calvinists who populated the country early on.

But, typically, liberals understand their history better than the religious right. The principal founders, those who wrote much of the Constitution, such as Jefferson and Madison, understood the necessity for the separation of church and state, the necessity for a limited standing army, the necessity of avoiding imperial ambitions, and particularly, the necessity for checks and balances in government.

Jefferson's failure to condemn slavery is one of the things most liberal-minded people find least attractive about him, especially given the stories and letters related to his relationship with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings.

[susanna]

19. Fabulous post, punpirate.

May I add that the original settlers (Puritans and Calvinists) owe the survival of the "American Experiment" to the Enlightenment minds of Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Washington, etc., in no particular order.

If it were not for those great thinkers, there would have been no Revolutionary War to "free" the Puritan/Calvinists from a monarchy who hounded them across the seas. Just my thoughts.

edited for clarity.

[punpirate]

21. One of the little-known facts...

... about the Revolutionary War is that more than a third of the colonists were dead-set against a war or any eruption of dissent toward England. How many of those were those subjected to religious persecution in England, I do not know. But, I suspect that, economics being what it is, money was as powerful then as it is now. :)

It's interesting to note, too, that some of the most specific of Jefferson's letters on the subject of church-state separation were to ministers worried that one particular sect or another might succeed in making itself paramount in official affairs of the states.

But, with regard to those enlightened minds, I recall someone saying the same thing not too long ago--how did it come to pass that the United States had several genuine minds full of such genius devoted to making a wholly new government in a country of so few people, and most of them still relatively young. We tend to gloss over the fact that Jefferson, for example, was only thirty-three when he drafted the Declaration of Independence.

Cheers.

[seabeyond]

5. bama one of my favorite, from their mouths

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

- Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

- Thomas Jefferson

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

- John Adams

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

-James Madison

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

-James Madison

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Patrick Henry has been quoted as saying that, but as to the context, and the source I am not sure.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible), of which I own a copy. It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it.

John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams again:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Still more John Adams:

“...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

James Madison again:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Finally, a word from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[neuvocat]

6. I suppose in a sense they would be correct.

The founding fathers wanted to reserve the right to vote strictly reserved to white, wealthy landowners. It was because of the efforts of Andrew Jackson, Susan B. Anthony, and Martin Luther King that have done more to make our country a democracy and less of a republic than what the founding fathers had planned.

[tabasco]

7. Tired old drivel from the hatemongers.

They claim to love their country so much. They are the super-patriots and the liberals are the evil traitors.

Funny how they don't have the guts to say it to my face, though.

But this is not surprising from the crowd who denigrate war heroes like Max Cleland and John Kerry.

The truth is that liberals believe in this country and the ideals for which it was founded. We believe in the Bill of Rights and have profound respect for the Founders. If any right-wing a-hole ever tells you that crap - tell them they are liars and hatemongers who are loyal to their PARTY and not to the Nation.

[BamaLefty]

10. Awesome Statement

Way to go my friend.

And thank you for your service as well. :patriot:

[BamaLefty]

8. I Figured It Was Just Another Bullshit Tagline

And yes, most of my history/political knowledge comes from DU and my dad... who thought about becoming a history professor while he was in college.

Where do you else do you expect me to learn history? In a fundie & NRA asskissing Alabama classroom??? What I figured...

[evlbstrd]

11. I told ya.

We need you and your friends!

[FredScuttle]

9. Whoops....the jig's up

OK, you got me....I confess. I do hate the founding fathers. And puppies. Sunny days and spring flowers make me miserable.

I'm in favor of dirty-dancing cheerleaders and spray-painting Satanic slogans on churches.

Hey! I could be a "Democratic" panelist on Fox!

[Sparkly]

12. Right! We also hate America, God, and families.

We hate the flag, we hate rich people, we hate the South, we hate the Bible, we hate apple pie!!

And why? Because rightwingers' scam doesn't work unless they're against something. And they've had to reach further and make up more outrageous lies to provide rationale for being against liberals/Democrats -- because the truth is, the majority of voters do agree with us on policy issues and principles.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. And we also hate Jesus, the Troops, and Unborn Babies

You are correct, it is a tired RW trivial argument.

[BamaLefty]

14. You Guys are hilarious!

But this beats ALL! One time a girl in my class told me that "John Kerry is a homosapien.":wtf:

I wanted to tell her ________________ (insert what you wish). Stupidity.

[evlbstrd]

15. Reply--

Yeah? You gotta problem with that?!

[pnorman]

16. It's the THEO-CONS who hate the Founding Fathers.

Check this out:

America's Most Famous Deists

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."
-George Washington

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels."
-The Rev. Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister and historian (lamented in an 1831 sermon)

Founding Father Quotes You Won't Hear on the 700 Club

Ex-Judge Moore felt that keeping a monument of the 10 Commandments in a courthouse was appropriate because he felt it was the foundation of American law. He obviously never read the Constitution of the United States.

"...but America was founded as a Christian nation," many say. Not so. Most of the more famous Founding Fathers were, in fact, Deists. Just listen to their own words.

The Constitution of the United States

Article VI, Section 3: “...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”

George Washington

George Washington to Tench Tilghman, (March 24, 1784):
"I am a good deal in want of a House Joiner and Bricklayer, (who really understand their profession) and you would do me a favor by purchasing one of each, for me. I would not confine you to Palatines. If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mahometans, Jews or Christian of an Sect, or they may be Atheists."



John Adams

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787–88:
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. … It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. …Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery… are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind”

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams.
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, (July 16, 1814):
"Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires."


More on John Adams

Thomas Jefferson

Letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moore, August 14, 1800
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law, & ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man. They are still so in many countries & even in some of these United States. Even in 1783, we doubted the stability of our recent measures for reducing them to the footing of other useful callings. It now appears that our means were effectual."

Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, September 23, 1800
“ believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man”

Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1801, First Inaugural Address
"And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803
"I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others."

Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, January 19, 1810
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."

Letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

Letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own”

Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, January 10, 1816
"You judge truly that I am not afraid of the priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries, of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying & slandering, without being able to give me one moment of pain. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West, and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance of those on whom their interested duperies were to be plaid off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develope itself. If it does, they excite against it the public opinion which they command, & by little, but incessant and teasing persecutions, drive it from among them. Their present emigrations to the Western country are real flights from persecution, religious & political, but the abandonment of the country by those who wish to enjoy freedom of opinion leaves the despotism over the residue more intense, more oppressive. They are now looking to the flesh pots of the South and aiming at foothold there by their missionary teachers. They have lately come forward boldly with their plan to establish " a qualified religious instructor over every thousand souls in the US." And they seem to consider none as qualified but their own sect."

Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, May 5, 1817
"I had believed that the last retreat of monkish darkness, bigotry, and abhorrence of those advances of the mind which had carried the other States a century ahead of them. ... I join you, therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character. If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, 'that this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'

Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Jefferson's Autobiography
“n amendment was proposed by inserting ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that should read ‘A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion’; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination”
>
>
http://www.deism.org/frames.htm

pnorman

[evlbstrd]

17. It's like going to college for free!

Keep your mind open, read a lot, and I mean a lot, and always ask questions.

[BamaLefty]

18. I Do- And Will Continue

I love DU. Its a big break from the life I have to live with around all of these Republicans in Alabama.

It will change though. It will surely change...

[ruggerson]

20. Most of the Founding Fathers WERE liberals

[tom_paine]

22. Projection, my friend. It is the Busheviks who hate the Founding Fathers

but they must do reconstructive surgery on history to make the 180 degree opposite of reality their "truth".

Check out my signature quotes and take a look at the one from Geo. Washington.

Kind of says it all, doesn't it?

As has already been mentioned, the Founding Fathers WERE Liberals.

That is as disgusting lie as I have heard from teh Busheviks in at least two or three minutes.

Want to understabnd the Busheviks, Leaders and Followers both? Read George Orwell's "1984".

Sadly, that's about all there is to them, and if we do not stop them before the Tranformation of America to Amerika is complete, a Great Darkness wil descend on the world unlike anything since 1933.