Why is everyone so shocked about the NC purge?

[Modem Butterfly]

Religious organizations have been painting people as heretics for political reasons since the beginning. The Baptists in NC have done nothing new or original. Religions are all about tarring groups of people as evil. So why the surprise?

[sinkingfeeling]

1. You are right, but I find it shocking that a small town church could

go this far against their own neighbors. All morning I've had lyrics of an old song in my head:

"Go ahead and hate your neighbor
Go ahead and cheat a friend
Do it in the name of heaven
You can justify it in the end
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgment day
On the bloody morning after
One tin soldier rides away" - Coven

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Nothing new- remember the Red scare? The Japanese internments?

Civil Rights? The witch trials?

[wicket]

35. I LOVE that song

:thumbsup:

[Warpy]

2. The surprise is that it's by political party

This is the new thing. If it spreads, we'll have a whole lot of churches being surprised by a tax bill, since they've become defacto Repuglican political organizations that take god's name in vain.

The extremist right always does itself in by its quest for ideological purity. This is just one of the first purges, and one of the more blatant.

[ultraist]

7. I agree. The Republicans are reaching deeper into the churches

and being more blatant about it. It's an organized effort. Things are escalating. With Senate Repugs making statements about "false religions" referring to all non fundamental Christian relgions and orgs such as Family Focus, we have cause for alarm.

[Modem Butterfly]

8. Not really

There were some deep divisions by party in the run-up to the Civil War in the non-slave states

[bloom]

13. thats going pretty far back...

and your other examples - more than anything - point to this being not only unusual - but associated with some pretty crappy points of view.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. It's what religion is designed to do

Separate people and re-define some as evil. There's tons of historical refernces to exactly this behavior. If you want more recent American examples, look at suffrage, McCarthyism, the civil rights and union movements, the ERA, abortion, Vietnam...

[bloom]

23. I think there is huge difference

between people who use religion as an excuse/reason to do evil and those who use religion to inspire them to be compassionate and helpful. Many people probably aren't really all that affected either way...

I don't think it's as black and white - ie. all religion is bad - as you seem to want to make it out to be.

[Modem Butterfly]

26. They're two sides of the same coin

Many people use religion to inspire them to be compasionate and helpful and end up doing evil. Consider the less terrorisyic elements of the anti-choice movement; they are inspired to be compassionate toward potential humans and to be helpful by preventing women from deciding when they will bring them into the world.

[bloom]

29. I'm also considering

the millions of religious people who are pro-choice and the ones who are inspired by their religion to be conscientious objectors.

Someone could say you are on the other side of the same coin from religious people - how would that be different?

[Modem Butterfly]

31. And there are many who say that is evil

It's all a matter of perspective. I'm sure that the folks in quesion believe they are being inspired by their religion to be compassionate and helpful by separating people into groups and defining them as evil.

[bloom]

36. I'm not sure which "folks in question" you are talking about...

the folks who want to say the Democrats are evil and must leave the church (what prompted this thread) or the people (that I mentioned) who refuse to fight wars because they don't want to kill people.

They are not the same people.

[Modem Butterfly]

38. I'm talking about religionists

While the ends are diffent for religious COs and those who exclude liberals based on religious grounds, the means are the same: i.e., using religion to explain and justify their actions.

[bloom]

40. While I don't like

the "in-group", "out-group" mentality of "religionists" - I would have a hard time seeing a problem with someone becoming a CO because of his/her religion - just as one example.

[ultraist]

18. In recent decades

The Republicans have been reaching into the churches more and more. During the Reagan era, they started networking with Southern churches. Prior to the late sixties, the South was heavily Democratic.

It is a growing movement. That's pretty apparent.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/solidsouth.html

The Solid South?

In the aftermath of the American Civil War the former Confederate states maintained a cohesive voting pattern nearly a century. It became known as "The Solid South" and was counted in the Democratic column for years. But as times, and party platforms, changed southern politics did too. Now for several decades the South has been solidly in the Republican camp. Find out more about the history, and possible future, of the southern vote below.

THE REAGAN REVOLUTION AND BEYOND
Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush have built on the legacy of resentment tapped into by Wallace and Thurmond. Social issues figured prominently in southern races and white evangelical Christians proved a powerful voter base for the Republican Party. Consider these trends from historian Richard K. Scher:

Beginning in 1980 the Republican presidential nominee has won about 54% of the popular vote in the South, virtually landslide proportions; the Democratic nominee averaged only 42%.

Since 1984, the South has supported the Republican presidential nominee at a higher percentage than the country as a whole. At the presidential level, the South is now the most Republican region of the country.

[shadowknows69]

3. I'm shocked

they didn't drag them outside and burn them at the stake.

[txaslftist]

6. Bern 'em at the steak?

What in the sam hell is that? Why'd ya wanna go wasterin a perfickly good steak?

Hayl, I seen them pitchers, and they got some perfickly good trees out back o' thet cherch. Down hear in the south we don't bother around with no steak-bernins (less'n its a cross). You kin re-use a rope.

[AspenRose]

4. Maybe not so much shocked as fed up

People are getting FED UP (I know I am)

[MARALE]

10. Here here

I am fed up. People are not taking this seriously but it is serious. It does not take a lot of people to start a bad movement. It takes a few people scaring others into doing harm. People that think the filth that comes out of Rush's mouth or any other hate monger is harmless, I think is naive. It is starting to really scare me.

[dogday]

9. This is the United States of America 2005

And this shit should not be happening in this country. This is not about religion, this is about freedom of choice, the right to worship one way and to vote another. This was not this church's mandate from the beginning, they have just recently changed to this Republican only status, therefore it is unconstitutional and should not be tolerated by any constitutional believing American in this country.

[Modem Butterfly]

11. Well, it is constitutional

Churches have a very wide latitude in deciding whom they invite and recogize. And quite frankly, Americans have been tolerating religious intolerance since the beginning.

[dogday]

12. They were invited and they did become Members by invitation

and that was not a problem at the time........ So when did it become a problem to this church and how did it affect those members who were accepted? They should of never accepted them for membership. Yes if it is a Private Church they can get away with it, but if it is an inviting church to the public, you have a different story when the rules of being a republican for membership are not posted anywhere....

[Modem Butterfly]

21. And now they're uninvited

The law doesn't recognize "private" or "public" churches, FYI.

[oneighty]

33. Modem Butterfly

I like your name.

If this Church is accepting federal faith based funds then a new question rises.

Is it still a private Church group?

Here is the can of worms faith based funding finally opens.

Perhaps ACLU steps in.

180

[Modem Butterfly]

37. There is no difference between private and public churches under the law

That's why it's so difficult, and so imporant, to keep church and state separate.

I have no idea whether or not this church gets "faith based funds", but if that's the only can of worms you can see opened by faith-based charities, you need to do more reading. The conflicts of interest are huge and well-documented.

[oneighty]

42. No doubt

180

[ultraist]

19. It's not the intolerance in general that is shocking

It's the POLITICAL involvement that is, that started during the Reagan era and is gaining a LOT of momentum. It's all part of the rising theocracy.

There are laws about campaigning in churches and the level of political involvement/activities of churches. I don't know specifically what these laws are, but they are in place to protect their tax exempt status.

[geniph]

20. Certainly it's constitutional for a private institution to be bigoted,

but if they are becoming an arm of a political party or serving to raise funds for specific political candidates, then that activity is not tax-deductible. Any church or other religious institution which becomes more or less wholly a propaganda outlet for the Republicans needs to have their tax-exempt status revoked.

[Hugin]

14. IMHO...

Here's what the excommuicatees should do...

1) Request to be reimbursed any and all donations ever
made by them to that church.

2) File a complaint with all levels of tax collection. Local,
State, Federal.

3) Do what all Americans have always been known for and
start their own church.

[DistressedAmerican]

15. Shocked No! Irritated Yes!

At least they were not forced to drink poison. That has worked for a lot of churches over the centuries!

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. This country has never suffered a religious war.

The way things are going, if these people get what they want, it will make the Civil War look like a fistfight at a sunday-school picnic.

[Sandpiper]

22. I'm not shocked at all, I used to live there

There are some A-1 holy-rolling, homophobic, racist, bigoted freaks in WNC.

[LostinVA]

34. Remember -- these are re the people who sheltered Eric Rudolph

for years. The guy looked pretty clean and well-fed when he was arrested, didn't he??? Plus, they are white supremacists groups stationed around there. WNC is so beautiful, and has some great artist colonies like Penland, but then you also have THIS.

[mmonk]

24. No, just thought we had something

special in our separation of church and state. I think our constitution is in jeopardy if we don't start fighting back, answering their lies about "a Christian nation" being under attack and explaining to them that the separation and the establishment clause protects religious views instead of being an attack on them. Finally we must call them out for being liars and for opposing our constitution instead of being patriots.

[ComerPerro]

25. Not really suprised. Just disgusted

This church is now a GOP PAC. Its tax exempt status should be revoked.

[barb162]

27. It doesn't bother me; they can kick out anyone they don't want.

To tell you the truth, it's fine. Now the Dems in that stupid ass church won't be donating to them. It doesn't surprise me either.

[derby378]

28. No, they can't - not if they want to remain tax-exempt (n/t)

[VOX]

30. Not shocked at all. But this was a public, line-crossing event.

Nothing new, true, but this purge is a public act that puts the sickness of the extreme-fundy church out in broad daylight, for all to see.

[Modem Butterfly]

41. Even the Freepers think this is wrong

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1398187/posts

[LostinVA]

32. I find it shocking because it's a mainstream denomination

Very much a F*CK YOU! The national organization's response to this will be very interesting. If the church is not kicked out of the.... association? denom,ination?... then all Southern Baptist churches should lose their tax exempt status.

To me it IS surprising because it's a mainstream church. Of course, the part of NC it occurred in does NOT surprise me...

[ClassWarrior]

39. Can we say "TAX EXEMPTION DENIED??"

I'm glad they did it. They outted themselves.

NGU.