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DId 57% of iraq's weapons come from russia, 1% from US?

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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:31 AM
Original message
DId 57% of iraq's weapons come from russia, 1% from US?
That doesn't sound right, especially when I researched where Saddam's chemical and biological weapons came from. Even the helicopters to gas halbja came from a sale Reagan made to iraq.

But I see freepers spewing this around as the latest gospel and I am having trouble finding specific info to refute it or confirm it.

http://www.command-post.org/archives/002978.html

So is this chart a lie? Is it over looking something? Is it accurate? Distorted?

Specific data would be very helpful.

Thanks
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Also check
Who paid for it.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. most conventional weapons came from the former Eastern Bloc
Edited on Thu May-05-05 12:35 AM by Anarcho-Socialist
because they were simply cheaper than their Western counterparts (but bought with U.S. military aid). This was the case in most Arab countries. The U.S. gave Iraq it's expertise in chemical weapons though.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. The biggest arms trader with Iraq (conventional) was Germany.
Not the USSR.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Was it the FRG or GDR? n/t
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Another good question.
But that's conventional weapons. They're legal and always have been. And WMD are WAAAAAAY CHEAPER than conventional weapons. This "57% vs 1%" chart is apples and oranges.

I wanna see a chart that compares VOLUMES of ILLEGAL weaponry and components and precursors sold to Iraq, country by country.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. The French sold them Mirage F-1's and Exocet missiles
Edited on Thu May-05-05 11:47 AM by jpak
;@sed during the attack on the USS Stark (37 American dead).

They also had large numbers of Chinese Type 69 tanks (knock offs of the Russian T-55) and Chinese armored personnel carriers (Type 63's IIRC).

on edit: China sold them F-7 (Mig-21 knock off) combat aircraft too...

Austria also sold them 300 advanced long-range artillery (the 155 mm G5).

Many of these weapons and dual-use WMD technologies were bought with the BILLIONS of US taxpayer-guaranteed "agricultural" loans Reagan and Poppy made to their good buddy Saddam.

People tend to forget the last part...

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The last part is kinda important, uh huh.
The tanks, F-1s, personel carriers, are all legal.

Poppa bush was loaning US taxpayer money to Saddam right up until the Gulf War. Most Americans never knew that so never had to worry about forgetting it.

*sigh*

And Americans wonder why we're so hated.

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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. SIPRI is highly credible
and doesn't have an apparent axe to grind.

Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

http://www.sipri.org/

Check out their website. The staff is impressively credentialed, and there's a wealth of other good information besides the stuff about Iraqi arms purchases.

Peace.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. Some facts for ya;
The USA supported Iraq during the 8 years of the war, with money, sattelite photos of enemy positions, and equipment INCLUDING chemical and bio weapons, technical expertise, and plans for chemical weapons factories.

-The US rewarded Saddam after the Iran-Iraq war with billions in loan guarantees and agricultural credits right up until Aug 2, 1990, the day Iraq invaded Kuwait.

In the fall of 1989, at a time when Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was only nine months away and Saddam Hussein was desperate for money to buy arms, President Bush signed a top-secret National Security Decision directive ordering closer ties with Baghdad and opening the way for $1 billion in new aid.

* In 1987, Vice President Bush successfully pressed the federal Export-Import Bank to provide hundreds of millions of dollars in aid for Iraq, the documents show, despite staff objections that the loans were not likely to be repaid as required by law.

* After Bush became President in 1989, documents show that senior officials in his Administration lobbied the bank and the Agriculture Department to finance billions in new Iraqi projects.

* As vice president in 1987, Bush met personally with Nizar Hamdoon, Iraq's ambassador to the United States, to assure him that Iraq could buy more dual-use technology. It was three years later that National Security Council officials blocked the attempt by the Commerce Department and other agencies to restrict such exports.

* After Bush signed NSD 26 in October, 1989, Secretary of State James A. Baker III personally intervened with Agriculture Secretary Clayton K. Yeutter to drop Agriculture's opposition to the $1 billion in food credits. Yeutter, now a senior White House official, agreed and the first half of the $1 billion was made available to Iraq at the beginning of 1990.

* As late as July, 1990, one month before Iraqi troops stormed into Kuwait city, officials at the National Security Council and the State Department were pushing to deliver the second installment of the $1 billion in loan guarantees, despite the looming crisis in the region and evidence that Iraq had used the aid illegally to help finance a secret arms procurement network to obtain technology for its nuclear weapons and ballistic-missile program.

An Agriculture Department official cautioned in a February, 1990, internal memo that, when all the facts were known about loan guarantees to Iraq, the program could be viewed as another "HUD or savings-and-loan scandal."

Of the $5 billion in economic aid provided to Iraq over an eight-year period, American taxpayers have now been stuck for $2 billion in defaulted loans.

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00776.html

Yes, U.S. helped Iraq get chemical, biological weapons

You don't have to dig deep to find that from 1982 to 1990 the United States supplied Iraq with not only conventional arms and cash but also chemical and biological materials, including the precursors for anthrax and botulism.

A 1994 investigation by the Senate Bank Committee found that U.S. companies had been licensed by the Commerce Department to export a "witch's brew" of biological and chemical materials, including precursors of anthrax and botulism. The report also noted the exports included plans for chemical and biolgical warfare facilities and chemical warhead filling equipment.

"Only on Aug. 2, 1990, did the Agriculture Department officially suspend the (loan) guarantees to Iraq -- the same day that Hussein's tanks and troops swept into Kuwait," a Los Angeles Times expose on Feb. 23, 1992, noted.

http://www.belleville.com/mld/newsdemocrat/5674107.htm

I've more links in here somewhere...my "faves" file is a deep dark bottomless pit...can find more if you need. :)
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. yeah, send more!
and thanks!

I can always add to my research archive
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. UH oh...I found my "US supplied WMD to Iraq" stash in my deep
bottomless pit of "faves" file! :D

Conventional weapons were and are NOT ILLEGAL; Iraq was allowed to have them. Rightwingnuts don't seem to understand or know this. "WMD" (nuke/bio/chem) were/are illegal for Iraq to possess. US under Reagan and Poppa Bush sold WMD, WMD technology, and WMD expertise to Iraq.

***Iraqgate, 1980-1994 National Security Archives
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/iraqgate/iraqgate.html

***The Riegle Report
U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Gulf War

http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html

***US Chemical and Biological Exports to Iraq
Committee Staff Report No. 3
U.S. Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs

http://www.chronicillnet.org/PGWS/tuite/chembio.html

***Made in the USA, Part III
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/23/news-crogan4.php

***IRAQGATE; United States Illegally Armed Saddam Hussein
This is an interview with the journalist who broke the IraqGate story and Archive documents
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/iraqgate.htm

Iraqgate: Confession and Cover-Up
http://www.fair.org/extra/9505/iraqgate.html

Saddam Hussein, US Policy and the Prelude to the Persian Gulf War
http://nsarchive.chadwyck.com/igessayx.htm

Iraqgate: The Illegal Arming of Iraq by the US and UK
http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collections/hidden/iraqgate.htm

US supplied anthrax to Iraq
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3887.htm

Report: US supplied the kinds of germs Iraq later used for biological weapons
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp_x.htm

Iraq War: WMD capability and disarmament

These weapons were developed with equipment and materials -- including the anthrax and botulinum bacteria -- supplied by US companies under licences issued by the Reagan and Bush administrations.
http://www.saag.org/papers7/paper641.html

The Corporations That Supplied Iraq's Weapons
http://www.thememoryhole.org/corp/iraq-suppliers.htm

Leaked report says German and US firms supplied arms to Saddam
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=362566

US helped Iraq develop its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs.
http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Back/Wnext24/Iraq.html

Middle East Report 234: Democracy, Deception and the Arms Trade
http://www.mafhoum.com/press7/232P1.htm

Saddam Hussein: Made in the USA
http://www.agrnews.org/issues/215/worldnews.html#saddam

That hold ya for awhile? :D

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lenidog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. Most of his conventional weapons
Edited on Thu May-05-05 12:53 AM by lenidog
came from the former Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact or China. Though he kept it varied he also had South African, Brazilian or French weapons. He did have some American but that was either things left over from before he took power or captured during the Iran-Iraq War. Now his chemical weapons technology was mostly US with some French aid. All of this was paid for out of loans from other Arab nations or from grants given by them. We also gave some monetary aid, loans and loan guarantees.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Don't confuse money with weapons
The US is not a great arms supplier. For the past fifty years, arms for thirld world countries largely came from the Eastern Bloc or France. This is why every time you see anyone in the middle east, central Asia or Africa firing a gun into the air, it is an AK-47 and not an M-16.

Now where the money came to buy those arms is another matter completely.
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RuleofLaw Donating Member (345 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. Well something is wrong here
It says that Denmark account for 1% of the weapons supplied to Iraq.
That's kind of odd since Denmark does not have an arms industry?

I don't think Denmark and the US supplied the same amount of arms to Iraq. Especially not when one consider that the period covers the time when the USA actively suppported Iraq in the war against Iran.

I say BS on this
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Go to the SIPRI site before you declare BS
Appreciate your opinion, but here's a rare case where it's easy to see the methodology.

Pick apart what they have to say, and your opinion will be ten times more valuable. I've been probing it, and looking for omissions, myself.

For my part, I think they're reporting accurately, but not able to determine sub rosa aid and other off-the-books transactions.

Peace.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
11. That chart is incorrect, imo.
Edited on Thu May-05-05 11:00 AM by LynnTheDem
The USA tried to blame the USSR for everything and cover up IraqGate and IranContra.

But it sure doesn't compare to the UN reports, Iraq reports, or any of the IraqGate documents from the Nat Sec Archives.

First off, the #1 conventional arms trade to Iraq was Germany, not the USSR. So are they counting German-sold but Russian-made weapons as Russian-supplied???

WMD aren't as pricey as conventional weapons, too, -not even close- so that should be considered, especially as conventional weapons were/are LEGAL for Iraq to purchase.

Let's compare VOLUMES of WMD sales between countries as ONLY WMD sales were/are ILLEGAL.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. Forget that chart...it's CONVENTIONAL ie LEGAL weapons.
Doesn't matter who the hell sold Iraq the most AK-47s and ammo and tanks and planes etc; Iraq was ALLOWED to buy those items and still is.

http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/atirq_data.html/view?searchterm=Iraq

Nice try, "Command Post" rightwingnuts. :eyes:
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