What makes you think you can formulate an opinion about anything?

[Jara sang]

Seriously, how can you comment on something that you, yourself do not witness first hand or experience in the first person. This is not an indictment, for I include myself in this. How do you come to the conclusions that you draw about the world around you?

[swag]

1. Ludwig Wittgenstein gave me permission

[Arkana]

36. Exactly. Didn't Wittgenstein also condemn religious language

as "useless" because it had no intrinsic meaning?

NOTE: This is just what Wittgenstein said. Do not get offended, those of you who are easily offended.

[swag]

55. "What we cannot speak of , we must pass over in silence."

I think that's a correct quotation of the final passage of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus.

Of course the relationships among language, philosophy, science, "spirituality," and everyday life were always in play with Wittgenstein, even toward the end of his life.

And in stepped the philosophy doctors to mow me down. Welcome! Welcome! Mow me down!

[Trajan]

2. One word ....

Hunger ....

[democracyindanger]

3. Do you mean the act of commenting, or the validity of the comment?

[Jara sang]

13. I mean how are you qualified to form an opinion about... Oh let's say...

The pope. You've seen pictures of him, have you ever met him? Everyone has an opinion about the pope. Do these people know anything about him, except for the things the press has feed him. I can honestly say that I do not have enough information about Pope Benedict XVI to formulate an opinion about him. How many other people in this world would be so honest? Does he have an impact on your life? Why do you even care about the pope? A month ago nobody had even heard of Cardinal Ratzinger.

[democracyindanger]

27. You are as qualified to make an opinion as you want to be

The validity of that opinion can only really be judged by others--and even then, it is their opinion, which is also open to judgment by yet others.

Also, even if you believe you don't have enough information, or desire, to formulate an opinion--that is also your opinion. Others may disagree, saying that you indeed have enough information, and it may be a lack of desire, rather than enough information.

Lack of an opinion is an opinion in and of itself.

[blm]

28. And there are others of us who have known about Ratzinger's work for

at least two decades.

Pieces of the puzzle eventually come together when you have a grasp of the forces behind the big picture....or philosophical agendas of those in positions of power and those who helped put them there.

[Sapphire Blue]

40. Yes, people know quite a bit about Ratzinger and have witnessed

... and experienced his persecution over the years... persecution which had a horrible impact on numerous lives... thus the many qualified opinions on this particular subject. People have known who Ratzinger was for decades.

[Jara sang]

41. "There are those that say..." People know..."

:eyes:

[Sapphire Blue]

54. You asked if "people know anything about him"

You don't seem to like the answer to your question.

"A month ago nobody had even heard of Cardinal Ratzinger." "Nobody?"

Do some reading, dear. You might learn something.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Ratzinger%27s+persecution+of+Archbishop+Raymond+Hunthausen&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&start=0&sa=N&filter=0

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&tab=wn&q=ratzinger%27s+persecution+of+Archbishop+Raymond+Hunthausen&ie=UTF-8&filter=0

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-07%2CGGLD%3Aen&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&filter=0&q=Ratzinger+%26+Hunthausen&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

http://news.google.com/news?q=Ratzinger%20%26%20Hunthausen&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&sa=N&tab=wn

[Jara sang]

60. Had you heard of him? I may have heard of him in passing.

I will admit to that.

[Sapphire Blue]

61. I lived through the persecution.

[Jara sang]

65. I don't follow you.

Please explain.

[Orangepeel]

62. I am as qualified to have an opinion on Ratzinger as

Ratzinger is qualified to have opinions on American politics.

In answer to your original question, I can formulate an opinion about anything that comes to my attention. I'll express it if it seems relevant to the situation. Others can take my opinion into consideration or ignore it as they choose.

[Maddy McCall]

4. Oh god this reminds me of freshman philosophy.

Please. You're giving me a headache. :D

[Eloriel]

5. While there are more and more exceptions these days,

and most of them seem to be in Washington, D.C., not everyone lies to me about what is going on in or true about the world.

[PowerToThePeople]

6. Well, with that...

What makes you think you can form an opinion on something that you experience first hand? Just because you are a part of it, you don't "know" 100% what any other person involved is thinking or their reasons for their personal actions. You can only form your opinions based on statistical phenomena. I have seen lie after lie from the mouths of * cabal members, so I have formed the opinion that they tend to lie often. I have seen them give handouts to the rich corporations/people while stripping programs for the needy, so I have come to the conclusion that they are heartless animals. The list goes on...

[Jara sang]

8. Quantum uncertainty

From wiki: Quantum uncertainty is usually described in terms of a particle with a definitely measured momentum for which there must be a fundamental limit to how precisely its location can be specified

[Just Me]

7. *LOL* What makes you think,...you can formulate a question about anything?

How on earth can you possibly create a question without drawing conclusions about the world around you?



Round and round we go *LOL*.

[Jara sang]

9. What is your opinion about the situation in Kyrgyzstan?

Or what do you think of Tony Blair? Is one question more significant than the other?

[Just Me]

15. Are your questions,...more significant than the opinions of others?

How come you fail to question policies that advance the profits of a few over the interests of the many?

Isn't that a more significant question than those you formulate?

HMMMMMMM.

[Jara sang]

17. What do you mean?

:shrug:

[jimshoes]

10. They are opinions that we, or rather I, post

mostly. And you know what they say about opinions. But seriously it is however the factual data and the latest breaking news that keeps me coming back. The stuff we will never see again on the M$M.

P.S. Thanks to all the dedicated DU'ers who keep us all posted on the real news.

[pscot]

11. Roshomon

Zen laughter.

[radwriter0555]

12. Why would I rely on others to form MY opinion? I listen, watch, learn and

educate myself.

I don't watch teevee or listen to the radio. I read, read and read some more. And then I learn, then I decide what MY position and opinion are.

If you don't like my opinion, then tell me why I'm wrong with something to back it up that YOU thought of...

*YOU* being subjective, of course!

[Jara sang]

16. Education, that is a good answer.

However that information has likely been filtered through several people through the ages. Let's say you take a course in volcanology at Columbia university from a professor who had never left New York in his life, but knew everything there is to know about volcanoes. You just got back from Hawai'i and stood two feet away from a surface flow of hot lava oozing from the Earth. You ask the professor if he had ever witnessed such a thing. he says "no". Who then would be the expert?

[thebigidea]

18. the professor, of course. Does simply witnessing lava give you a degree?

I imagine decades of research, reading, and conversing with peers would give you a hell of a lot more information than sweating by a volcano.

or are pictures and films of volcanic activity somehow a huge conspiracy?

pretty poor example.

[Jara sang]

19. That professor would never be able to tell you the way

lava smelled, or how hot it was, or if the stench made you nauseous. I say the student. What is a degree? I can buy several of those.:eyes:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

32. what are you basing your knowledge of the spelling on? Fancy books?

man, I have been UP CLOSE to asanine. I KNOW that's how you spell it - no matter what your fancy spellcheck says.

But, yeah - ditch the argument in favor of typo nagging. You couldn't answer the questions, eh?

[Jara sang]

35. Actually visiting the Capitol IS a good way to learn about

Political Science. Have you ever been there? Do you know what is on the floor directly below the Capitol dome? I do. Try to find that on the internet. I challenge you.

[radwriter0555]

20. Right, but when you're SO educated on a topic that you know instantly the

lies from the truth, you then have the ability to form an opinion.

For example, I know far more about the bush family than 99.99999% of the American people.

I'd say I'm able to form the accurate opinion -- and I did, in August of 2000 -- that bush is a lying, cheating, thieving fascist hitler wanna be who will stop at nothing to grab power and lay waste to nation or people in his way; using the US taxpayer dollars and the US military.

And I was right.

[Generator]

14. I agree with ignored

[lala_rawraw]

21. I am not sure I understand your

Question exactly. Do you mean:

1). How do we humans process reality?
2). How do we humans perceive reality?
3). How do we humans analyze reality?

Or what school of thought we find most supports our own concepts?

:)L

[Jara sang]

23. What qualifies you to make a statement about anything that you

don't witness first hand?

[thebigidea]

24. what qualifies you to question the expertise of others?

[Jara sang]

26. I'm human

[thebigidea]

30. about as deep as a not very deep thing.

I'll take my leave before this thread descends into, "Like, man - ever think that like... our whole solar system and universe are like just electrons and stuff orbiting around inside a tiny atom inside an even bigger universe? And if you play the Wizard of Oz and Ethel Merman's Disco Album at the same time - they match up exactly... dude, where are you going? its only 3am..."

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lala_rawraw]

25. Right, I got that but it is vague...

I don't understand what you are trying to ask. Are you asking, for example, that people who are not direct witnesses in Iraq are not able to make a sound, reasonable, and yes, qualified statement?

Did I miss a thread that this was in response to or something. I am sorry, but this far too vague for me to answer:(

[Jara sang]

29. It is a simple question,really.

In a court of law, they call witnesses. There is a car crash. They call people that were on the scene and can describe through their various senses, what happened. You are a block away from the accident. They do not call you. You may have an opinion about the accident, however, it is not valid. Proximity equals experience equals knowledge. Books are a good place to start, but you are in effect reading somebodies opinion about a topic. I feel that you need hard data, evidence that you experience first hand, otherwise you are flying blind.

[PowerToThePeople]

33. You have to go off something

No person in omniscient. So you try to base your views on the "best" sources you can find. Unless you are repuke, then you believe whatever is spoon-fed to you.

[lala_rawraw]

45. Well my argument to this

Is that the collective "agreement" that certain experiences are real makes them so. From that we can extrapolate our own single experience, which in turn can be divided into several categories. Mainly, we use the "absolute" imperative to pull out empirical data and we process that data as it applies to other experiences.

Proximity does not equal knowledge, it simply equals direct experience which simply means "perception". In fact, proximity alone is not enough to guarantee a valid objective experience. Hard data, however, is also not entirely a true argument here because, for example, prior to the discovery of electricity, one could argue that such a thing did not exist. It is simply that we were not aware of its existence.

We all process things individually, but the framework is "absolute" in that there is an unconscious agreement that certain things are simply what we all know them to be. For example, every culture defines death processes differently. In Tibetan Buddhism, death is a peeling of layers until nothing is left. In the end, however, we are all just simply dead bodies and that fact we all agree is "absolute" and "universal". One surely need not die to identify that another is dead.

So the argument is not on either side of the two extremes, per your examples, rather, it is more centered on a collective experience and understanding and from there it works its way out in a more circular way.

My thinking on this is sort of a mixed bag of Kierkegaard, Camus, and the classical theories.

[Individualist]

47. That's a naive supposition

Are you unaware of the questionable accuracy of eyewitnesses? Here's just one example: www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/LOFEYE.html

Incidentally, that's somebody's opinion, not somebodies.

[shugah]

59. sure

in a court of law, they call witnesses.

sometimes, there's a car crash - 2 cars on a lonely back road at night... NO WITNESSES.

except...after the crash, there is a man in critical condition, a dead child, and a baby that was found 42' from the accident crying in a car seat. there is also an incoherent person sitting in the driver seat of one of the cars, and when a breathalizer is given registers as not just beyond the legal limit, but totally shit-faced...

oh well :shrug: no witnesses!

"hard data" is great when you can get it. and i totally fail to see how learning from the experience of someone else is not "hard data." (really, whatever the hell "hard data" means! ;-) )

sometimes, you just have to be a thinking person.

[annarbor]

34. Granted.....

Granted, I have never met the Pope, so I will refrain from forming an opinion. Admittedly, I have never met George W. Bush, but I can say with absolute certainty that he's kinda dumb.....

Just sayin...
Ann Arbor

[mmonk]

37. Why can't I?

[Jara sang]

39. I'm not stopping you.

[mmonk]

48. That's good.

I guess because I can communicate my thoughts on a subject. An opinion is easy to express.

[FinallyStartingToWin]

38. I've Read Your Other Replies and Am A Bit In Disbelief

This is probably the oddest question I've come across. If the question was how can you say you know something for fact without etc..., well that I can understand. But opinion? The very definition of opinion means that you cast judgement in the absence of fact. The right to cast an opinion outside of fact is inherent in the very fabric of what an opinion is. The very question you asked is an anomaly within itself, as it contradicts itself outside of logic.

To clarify, I will paste a definition.

o·pin·ion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pnyn)
n.
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Sorry if I am missing something.

[Jara sang]

42. The question is not about me, it is about those that choose to respond.

WHAT makes YOU think YOU can formulate an opinion about anything? I am indeed asking for your opinion.

[FinallyStartingToWin]

51. As I Already Said Clear As Clear Can Be

My right to formulate an opinion is inherent in the definition itself. It is the very meaning of an opinion. I have the right to formulate an opinion because many years ago someone decided:

"hey, when someone chooses to feel a certain way about something in the absence of fact, well for now on we are going to call that an opinion. And anyone can do it! Just as long as it isn't something completely provable, or it would then become fact, but if it isn't completely substantiated, then you have the right to feel however you want about anything and for now on, I declare, we shall call that feeling opinion! Hear Ye Hear Ye"

Sometime ago, in a land far far away, someone uttered those words. And forever since, I've had the right to formulate an 'opinion'.

[FinallyStartingToWin]

57. And Just In Case There Is Another Reply

I am going to bed, so I figured I'd give an additional insight.

What gives me the right to formulate an opinion?

God. Period.

God gave us free will. That means God gave all of us the right to think how we want, believe what we want, cast an opinion on whatever we want, choose what we want and live however we want.

The answer to your question is free will. The right was given to us by God himself.

Nuff Said.

[Jara sang]

64. Yes, Allah.

The prophet Mohammed was very wise.

[babylonsister]

43. Because I trust myself and the level of bullshit that

is taken in and/or released . I definitely have an opinion, and know what I think is true!

[meisje]

44. Magic 8-Ball

I just asked the 8-ball if I am right about everything and it replyed "Signs Point To Yes".

[PowerToThePeople]

46. The world only exists through my senses

So, the world is exactly how I think it is. I create the world around me.

[karlrschneider]

50. I'm an anti-solipcist...

everything but me is real.
:evilgrin:

[Jara sang]

58. I like it.

Scratch that... I love it!

[nonconformist]

49. I once stayed in a Holiday Inn Express

I feel this gives me carte blanche.

[Individualist]

52. "Cogito ergo sum" - Descartes

Anyone capable of thinking is capable of formulating an opinion. You seem to be implying that an opinion is the same as a statement of fact.

[FlemingsGhost]

53. What gives you the right to ask? (n/t)

Flem.

[Jara sang]

56. My muse, Hubris n/t

[walldude]

63. Well, here's my opinion...

If people didn't talk about things they witnessed first hand, we
wouldn't have much to talk about. Unless you are one of those people who love to bore people with the same story over and over and over :boring: If people didn't have opinions about things we didn't witness first hand, DU wouldn't exist. ;)

As for me there are 2 reasons I believe my opinion is valid. One is I educate myself. I read, I listen, I try to hear all sides of the story, and then I form an opinion on what I believe are the facts. The second is honesty, if I am not well enough informed to form an opinion I am not afraid to say it. You mentioned in a post the situation in Kyrgyzstan, well I have no opinion about it because I don't have any idea what you are talking about. I also make an attempt to clarify myself if I'm unsure about something or my sources are dubious.
On the other hand sometimes I just like to be an ass and annoy people with my uninformed bullshit :D
Now if you'll excuse me I have to get to Google and see what is going on in Kyrgyzstan...

[ultraist]

66. In different ways...

It depends on what the opinion is regarding. If it's an opinion of taste, I base it on less logical reasons. For instance, I cannot logically justify my opinion on aesthetic matters. I like abstract art because of the emotional reaction I have to it (some of it).

On other matters, I educate myself and use basic reasoning/analytical skills. The level of education varies per issue. I'm more interested in learning about some issues over others.

Obviously, our internal models, our worldviews, influence how we perceive, interpret and process information. It's important to be aware of our biases. ;)

[Jara sang]

69. That is a good answer.

[Dr Fate]

68. I base them on past experiences. n/t

n/t

[johnaries]

70. Cognito Ergo Sum.

I think, therefore I am. At least, I think I am. At the very least, I think i am thinking!
:evilgrin: