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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 04:59 PM
Original message
Nader: Democrats Are Full of It
Received by email...don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger!

Harry G. Frankfurt was a Daily Show guest a couple weeks back. I believe the interview is on its Comedy Central website.

=========================================

Dear Friend,

Have the Democrats learned anything from 2004?

Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, now wishes President Bush “success” for his war in Iraq.

"Now that we're there, we're there and we can't get out," Dean told an audience of nearly 1,000 at the Minneapolis Convention Center on April 20, 2005. "The president has created an enormous security problem for the United States where none existed before,” Dean said. “But I hope the president is incredibly successful with his policy now that he's there.”

Two months earlier, Bush's CIA Director, Porter J. Goss, told the Senate that the U.S. occupation has become a potent recruitment tool for more terrorists from Iraq and other countries.

The military/industrialist Senator from New York, Hillary Clinton, the front-runner for her party’s 2008 Presidential nomination, continues to support the war in Iraq.

And now she is supporting International Paper’s plan to test burn used automobile tires at its Ticonderoga, New York facility – making the Republican Governor of Vermont – across the waters of Lake Champlain – look like an environmentalist for opposing the burn.

The test burn is the company’s first step in a plan to burn 72 tons of tires a day at the facility.

Vermont PIRG points out that the company’s boiler is not properly equipped to catch the highly toxic pollutants that are coming out of the plant right now, yet alone the witches brew of heavy metals and cancer causing chemicals released from burning tires.

Two years ago this week, President Bush, standing under a “Mission Accomplished” banner aboard the USS Lincoln, proclaimed the end of major combat operations in Iraq.

Since then, more than 1,400 Americans and more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in Iraq.

And the Democrats can’t muster a single member of Congress to formally call for the impeachment of Bush for his ongoing illegal war.

Democrats as an opposition party?

The Democrats want you to believe that they are the only game in town.

They don’t need to lie to do this.

They can bullshit their way.

"On Bullshit" is the title of New York Times' best selling book (number four and climbing) by retired Princeton University philosophy professor Harry G. Frankfurt.
“Since bullshit need not be false, it differs from lies in its mis-representational intent,” Professor Frankfurt writes. “The bullshitter may not deceive us, or even intend to do so, either about the facts or about what he takes the facts to be. What he does necessarily attempt to deceive us about is his enterprise. His only indispensably distinctive characteristic is that in a certain way he misrepresents what he is up to.”

Perfect description of the Democrats.

No lies needed.

And what exactly is their enterprise?

To make us believe that they are a true opposition party.

Yet the Democrats in Congress can’t find the internal fortitude to stop Bush’s legislative agenda on bankruptcy, tort deform, repeal of the estate tax, and the energy bill, much less to vigorously propose a worthy agenda of their own.

The reality is that there is no opposition party in the United States.

The Democrats and Republicans are two heads of the same mega corporate machine.

And the only opposition is going to come from the people, steeped in the history of resistance to corporate power, and equipped with the tools to change from within.

We’ve recently returned from a two week anti-war tour of Arizona, California and upstate New York.

To all of you who came out to listen, learn, react and activate – it was great meeting with you and discussing with you the state of our political economy.

To those of you who chipped in to help us drive down our 2004 civil liberties debt – incurred fighting off the corporate Democrats driving to push us off the ballot in many states – we say, thank you.

We have raised over $500,000 since the election and now are looking at $95,000 that we must pay off over the course of the next few months.

To both help move our campaign into the black, and to gain more of an understanding of the current political dilemma facing our nation, we make you this offer: For a donation of $100 to our campaign, we will mail to you a copy of Professor Frankfurt’s best-selling book, "On Bullshit", (Princeton University Press, 2005).

In addition, I will send you a copy of "Civics for Democracy", a 338-page history of major citizen movements and a detailed guide to social change.

This book has become a perfect teaching manual for all people – it will help identify the bullshitters that dominate our political arena – and forge alliances with your fellow citizen activists to organize for lasting social justice.

That’s Professor Frankfurt’s best-selling "On Bullshit", and the classic "Civics for Democracy" – all for a contribution of $100 to our campaign.

If out of our tens of thousands of supporters, only 950 of you act now, we will be freed from this imposed civil liberties debt so that we can move aggressively to challenge the political duopoly that plagues this great land of ours.

Purchase them both for yourself, or give them to a friend or someone you love.

And please let your friends and family know about this invitation by forwarding this letter to your e-mail address book.

Thank you for your generous support and bright horizons.

Sincerely,

Ralph Nader

=================================================

http://www.independencegear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=115&Category_Code=MAIN



For a contribution of $100 we will send you the following:

"On Bullshit" is the title of New York Times' best selling book (number four and climbing) by retired Princeton University philosophy professor Harry G. Frankfurt.

“Since bullshit need not be false, it differs from lies in its mis-representational intent,” Professor Frankfurt writes. “The bullshitter may not deceive us, or even intend to do so, either about the facts or about what he takes the facts to be. What he does necessarily attempt to deceive us about is his enterprise. His only indispensably distinctive characteristic is that in a certain way he misrepresents what he is up to.”

Perfect description of the Democrats.

In addition, we will send you a copy of "Civics for Democracy", a 338-page history of major citizen movements and a detailed guide to social change, signed by Ralph.

This book has become a perfect teaching manual for all people – it will help identify the bullshitters that dominate our political arena – and forge alliances with your fellow citizen activists to organize for lasting social justice.

NOTE: This product will ship separately. Due to Ralph Nader's busy schedule, please allow up to 6 weeks for delivery. Inscription includes name(s) of recipient(s) only.

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. I prefer to listen to leftists who don't profit off Boeing and Raytheon
Edited on Wed May-04-05 05:01 PM by jpgray
General Dynamics, Halliburton, &c--sorry Ralph.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You said it! Ralph is all about Ralph
People will get downright fanatical and try to tell me otherwise, but if Ralph cared about this country he wouldn't have done everything in his power to install the chimp in 2000.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. Exactly
If he really cared he wouldn't have taken money from the RNC and all that nonsense and what you mentioned with 2000. Ugh.
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. So Nothing Is Wrong With Corporate Sponsored Democrats?
Would you care to list the names of corporations that contribute to the Democratic Party and leading Democrats who run for high office?

You should know that big business feeds both the Democratic and Republican politicians. That's why they frequently join together in promoting anti-worker and anti-consumer legislation like the bankruptcy law. Senator Reid even bragged about his role in getting the "class action tort reform" and bankruptcy bills passed in the Senate!

I hope you found that objectionable. I did. And so did many others. Ralph Nader isn't alone on that one.

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. No, but I like my leftist heroes to be a cut above Democratic hypocrites
Edited on Wed May-04-05 05:24 PM by jpgray
That's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Sorry you don't feel the same way.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. And who don't block their own employees from unionizing
or justify not paying them a living wage
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. I can't figure out why Dean said that
It's embarrassing in my opinion. :-(
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. I try not to let my hatred of the messenger -
Screw up a careful analysis of his message. It's true, the Democrats haven't been an effective opposition party since 9/11 - but they certainly were a distinct party in 2000, despite the lies to the contrary.

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expatriate Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Gee, Ralph, thanks for all your help in 2000.
Nice to know that the fella who helped the Bush presidency come about is now chastising us all.

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Where was Nader with the bankruptcy bill?
Those who talk the talk must walk the walk.

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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Still cashing those checks from Grover, Ralph?
Get lost punk
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Sorry. That Won't Work
Sorry. That old election rhetoric won't fly here. The name calling and character assasination might work with political novices but not anyone who cares to check the facts.

People who like to attack Ralph Nader as some kind of right-wing anti-labor "Republican" are the first ones to embrace Senator Harry Reid as some kind of working class hero!
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. I guess I have not checked enough facts
Ralph is #2 on the list of people that I despise, right behind the President that he helped to elect.
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Amy6627 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. I totally agree with Ralph! I am a democrat and have been one
all my life. I will continue to vote democrat, but I am so angered when I hear about Dems voting for things like the bankruptcy bill, tort deform, repeal of the estate tax, and the energy bill. And when they say things like Joe Biden saying to Alberto Gonzalos, "You're the real deal", or Diane Feinstein saying about Condi, "a president deserves to have his selections confirmed."

And the Democrats and Republicans are two heads of the same mega corporate machine. Republicans being the size of 2 watermellons and the Democrats the size of a cantaloupe.

We must stand up and demand that Corporations can not be involved in politics period. Money does not equal speech. The hierachy of this country must return to 1st We the People, 2nd the Government, and 3rd Corporations.

Please read Unequal Protection by Thom Hartmann if you haven't already.
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DemNoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ralph and the DNC
Two sides of the same fascist coin!
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Everyones A Fascist!
Right. Bush is a fascist, the DNC is fascist, Dean is a fascist, Nader's a fascist, everyone is a fascist except you!
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Great post...
...people throw around 'fascist', 'nazi' and other third reich analogies to the point that they no longer hold meaning.
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DemNoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I know
Its a lonely fight!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. *Bang bang, your dead*
;)

I don't read his blather, but I did want to shoot you.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks, Ralph....

I'm so sorry we don't meet your demands and definitions. Funny how you move the goal posts so much, though. And in your depth of concern, just where are you on social issues- on unjustly but legally disenfranchised people, on the nasty things being done to gay people?

Unfortunately, the perfect is the enemy of the good in our situation.

And you, Ralph, are the bullshitter. The rest of us don't consider your one-note socialism of fools a meaningful politics.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
18. Ralph has done incredibly exceptional things in his life.
But, his diviseness during these times really pisses me off. His actions are enabling the right-wingers to maintain their grip on this country as he helps them bash democrats. I'm sick of it and simply reject his destruction of anyone failing to be within his box!!!!
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Sure
"His actions are enabling the right-wingers to maintain their grip on this country as he helps them bash democrats."

Sure.

And how would you describe the actions of those who defend Democratic Party leaders in Congress who help right-wingers implement their policies by voting for Bush's appointments and legislative agenda?
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
20. Good read.
Thanx for posting.
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. he's right on many things..
and he manage to get the first recount going in 2004 when the Dems all looked the other way.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I thought that was Badnarik and the Green Party.
I may be mistaken, but I tend to notice when a Constitution Party candidate says that an election he knows he couldn't possibly have one is effed up.
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rniel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. Well Ralphie
When you can get more than 1.06% of the popular vote I'll listen to you.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. Oh, goody. PDA, Tom Hayden, Solomon, and now Nader.
Dear Howard Dean, you are a bad guy.

I will add that to my little list.
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. PDA, Hayden, Solomon and Nader. Only one more and we'll have a full house.
LOL!

Dear Howard Dean,

How can you say....uh....well...uh...what you've always said?

Sincerely,

People who don't like Democratic unity, Inc.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I was going to say Zeese, but he is actually Nader.
He is ready for a 3rd party now.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. Dear Howard Dean
Lots of us Dems want you to advocate for NO PERMANENT BASES in Iraq.

--from all of the above except Nader, who doesn't give a flying fuck about organization building. (The others do, BTW)
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
27. Hey Ralph! You were pretty cozy with the Repubs during the ..
Edited on Wed May-04-05 09:36 PM by Crazy Guggenheim
primaries. Hmmm. BTW Ralph why didn't you stand up this year about voter fraud. Put your $ where your mouth is. I heard Ralph on TV one day in early 2002 saying that he support "The Presidents War on Terrorism". Huh??

Ralph sounds like a sellout.

On Edit:

Ralph. Why didn't Wynonna LaDuke support you this time? She supported Kucinich!!
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. So Who Was Getting Money From Republicans?
"Hey Ralph! You were pretty cozy with the Repubs during the .."

Please check your facts. Nader got about $100,000 from anti-Bush Republicans. John Kerry got around 10 million bucks. You didn't see the Republicans for Kerry campaign committee?

The Republican Ohio Secretary of State refused to allow Ralph Nader on Ohio's election ballot. He's the same one who refused to do a full and honest recount of Ohio votes. And he's also claimed that Ralph Nader didn't get even one write-in vote for President!

Ya. We had election count fraud in Ohio.
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Ben Stein - the actor ? - gave some money to Nader. Yes the
conservative actor. He was getting money from some conservative Repubs.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. Arkana: Saint Ralph Can Suck My Left Nut
Seriously. Ralph has just resumed his favorite hobby--bashing Democrats. I wouldn't take ANYTHING this guy says seriously.
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Even the Greens wouldn't run him. "Republicans are people too."
Edited on Wed May-04-05 09:50 PM by Crazy Guggenheim
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Nader Bashes Bush. Why Won't The Democratic Party?
Ralph Nader does something most Democratic Party leaders won't do.

Nader bashes George Bush on Iraq!

And he bashes Bush's presidential appointments. Democrats vote for them.

And he bashes Bush's legislative agenda. Democrats vote for Bush's bills.

Perhaps Ralph Nader and other progressives ought to bash those Democrats who vote for Bush's agenda! Oh .... Nader and other progressives do that! Sorry if that upsets you.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Look, you can defend Ralphie Boy all you want, but the fact remains:
HE HELPED PUT THAT FUCKER IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2000! I will NEVER EVER forgive him for that! Then he just lapsed into a coma for about three months, woke up, and resumed bashing the Democrats because of their "inability" to block Bush's judicial nominees.

Wake up, pal. Your hero is nothing but a senile old kook who takes money from Republicans to cause dissent among Democrats.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. You know what? Fuck Ralph Nader.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
36. CSE, Nader, and Hidden powers of Brothers Koch.
http://www.prwatch.org/node/2782

Good read. More later.
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. So?
So this millionnaire Koch has given a lot of election money to Republicans and to Democrats ($694,000 for Democrats). I think we already know that wealthy people and corporations finance both the Republican and Democratic parties. What's your point?

You didn't indicate what happened to the lawsuit. I assume it was either thrown out by the courts or abandoned as mere anti-Nader election propaganda stunt by those who filed it. Which was it?
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Doc Bottom Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
39. Ralph
is wealthy, and he is a gangly old man, and that creepy human look he gives people he finds stupid is kind of disconcerting, and he's a vegetarian, and an Arab.

These myriad political flaws aside, he's not half as evil as the Democratic leadership.

And it's not his fault Bush was elected in 2000. Just who decided not to be a sore looser and let a cheat occur?

In any case, it is absurd to suppose that Nader's 'spoiler' factor actually somehow justifies ignoring his accurate criticisms and harping about him rather than working to repair the corporate duopoly problem, which is a hell of a lot older than five years.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think Nader cares primarily about two things:
1. Having a lot of money.

2. Having a group of neophytes who worship him like some kind of hero.

He's an asshole. He will do whatever it takes to maintain those two things. He is unprincipled and devious.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. Democrats: NADIR Is Full of It n/t
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
43. Here's what else I found.
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/can_ind/2003_P20000527/P-T/

Go about 2/3 to 3/4 down. You'll see Ben Stein. He gave $2750 to Nader. Oh if that's not enough.

Take a look at this.

http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/can_give/2003_P20000527

Donations from the MI Republican Party!
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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
45. Nader is pro-life!!!! Oh my god look at this quote!!!!
Edited on Wed May-04-05 10:43 PM by Crazy Guggenheim
So here it is Nader is Anti-Choice!!!

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Ralph_Nader_Abortion.htm#6 It's right at the top. He said everything else but why would he say that??? Two can play at this game.

<snip>
If Roe is reversed, decision just reverts to the states
On Oct. 29, 2000, Nader questioned all the concern being voiced by liberals about abortion rights. "Even if Roe v. Wade is reversed, that doesn't end it," he said. "It just reverts to the states."
If his opponents were livid before, this pushed people to the brink of apoplexy. As a fine point of judicial procedure, this was undoubtedly true. Each of the fifty states would still be able to make an individual decision about abortion. But for many, this did not seem like the kind of point that would be made by someone who cared a whit about the issue. It registered as further confirmation of what Rep. Barney Frank had once described as "Nader's lifelong lack of interest in major social causes like civil rights, women's rights, gay rights, and poverty." Nader's disinterest was no big deal--opponents contended--so long as Nader remained a consumer advocate. But now he was a presidential candidate, peddling a message of major-party indistinguishability.
<snip>
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Itsthetruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Nader/Camejo Are Against Women's Rights? Just Another Slander
"So here it is Nader is Anti-Choice!!!"

Are you comparing Nader/Camejo to the leader of the Democratic Party in the Senate, Harry Reid?

I guess you don't find Harry Reid's opposition to women's rights and his votes in support of George Bush's appointments and legislation objectionable!

Dennis Kucinich changed his position on abortion rights along with Ralph Nader. Senator Reid remains opposed against a women's right to have an abortion.

So exactly where did Ralph Nader and Peter Camejo stand on women's rights in the 2004 election? It seems you didn't bother to find out. Perhaps you just didn't want to find out. Perhaps you didn't want to find out because unlike some of the leaders in the Democratic Party you love so much, Nader and Camejo actually support women's rights! Is that the case?

But once the slander about Nader/Camejo being opposed to women's rights, including abortion rights, is refuted I imagine you or someone else will launch some new slander. And that's how one goes about conducting a character assasination campaign. Launch one false charge after another .... keep repeating those charges over and over and over again. If you sling enough mud some of it might stick!

So here is the position of Nader and Camejo in the 2004 election which was prominently displayed at their election campaign website. Refute this!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Equal Rights for Women

Ralph Nader endorses the full eleven-point agenda for economic, social and political rights of women put forward by the National Organization for Women. The NOW platform is reprinted below. The Nader Campaign also announced that it would have a contingent of supporters joining the March for Women’s Lives sponsored by the American Civil Liberties Union, Black Women's Health Imperative, Feminist Majority Foundation, NARAL Pro-Choice America, National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health and Planned Parenthood Federation of America, this Sunday, April 25, 2004.

The NOW agenda endorsed by Nader includes:

Reproductive Rights

NOW affirms that these are issues of life and death for women, not mere matters of choice. NOW supports access to safe and legal abortion, to effective birth control, to reproductive health and education. We oppose attempts to restrict these rights through legislation, regulation (like the gag rule) or Constitutional amendment.


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Crazy Guggenheim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. The reply was meant as sarcasm. Just to see that his statement
like Dean's can be taken out of context.
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
46. And the knee-jerk reactions upon hearing Nader's name proves it
The neophyte wisdom bestowed is nearly equal to that of Freeps and "Clinton."
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
47. I agree with everything nader says, but his behavior has turned
me off. all that energy, and it always turned on against dems. never the repugs, which just makes me think "fuck nader".
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Nader isn't out to win elections
His goal is to voice an opinion through political pressure.

What is he supposed to do? Convince the Republicans that his list of issues cannot be discarded?

I don't buy the crap that he causes Democrats to lose elections. If his list of priority issues (which I happen to agree with) is good enough to draw voters, then maybe Democrats should start _adressing_ these issues.

That's all Nader is asking for, and it would certainly give the Democrats more credibility.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
51. Too bad Ralph has reverted to form, dividing and not uniting.
His comment about Dean particularly makes me mad, as do those of "others" such as Hayden, et al.

When did people suddenly decide that the Iraq War is Howard Dean's problem? Did anyone make it Terry McAuliffe's problem? Huh? Did they? Did many people even KNOW who the hell Terry McAuliffe WAS?

Dean has visibility and is a target for people who want to divide the party not help to bring it together, as Howard Dean is trying to do.
The party's position on the war (and that of the Democrats who voted for it and voted to keep it alive by granting further money for it) is and always was contrary to Howard Dean's position on the war. He was NEVER "for it" and ALWAYS said that it was a mistake. He has also ALWAYS said that since Bush got us into this mess it would be irresponsible to cut and run, since doing so poses even greater security threats to the U.S., the M.E. and our allies in Europe. He ALWAYS said that the U.S. needed to involve the UN and NATO in peacekeeping missions and in helping the Iraqis to rebuild and that the U.S. troops should come home. He repeatedly said that Iraq should be put in the hands of "credible" Iraqi leaders and that other Arab nations should also be involved in helping to keep the peace.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
52. Ralph Nader is a hypocritical opportunistic piece of shit
Edited on Fri May-06-05 02:35 AM by WildEyedLiberal
If he gave two shits about "progressive ideals" he wouldn't take Republican blood money. Simple as that. I thought it was all about principles, Ralph? :eyes:

He's just a self-centered hasbeen who can't give up his 15 minutes of fame that he got for being a "spoiler" in 2000. Thanks a fucking lot, Ralph, for leaving us with Bush. THAT'S your legacy, you sellout.
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