How can anyone (still absolutely astounded at this) consider him/herself

[efhmc]

a progressive/liberal of any sort and not be a feminist????? Yes, a feminist, someone who believes in all rights (sexual, economic, educational, etc) for all people of all genders all of the time. I need answers and pronto. I still read threads and replies daily that contradict this idea here on DU. Why and how is that possible?

[lady lib]

1. Which threads are examples? n/t

[efhmc]

6. Here are some general but not specific examples. The rules of many

churches and their stance on women as priests (tradition, Paul said it, etc), birth control, abortion, porn, certain jobs, any thread involving a woman politician we don't like becomes very sexually personal in a way that is NEVER done to men, etc. Do you want more examples. I would need to go back meticulously on today threads but I bet I could find at least 10 or more blatant anti-female statements by "liberals".

[mongo]

53. Being pro-porn is not anti-feminist

and I'm sure many feminist DU'ers would agree with me.

[efhmc]

56. Being pro porn can definitely be anti-female. The objectification of

woman for use as products will always be anti-feminist to me and this include much of so called regular advertisement and probably most porn. (I will say that I have never seen any and do not intend to see any so I am without too much background here.)And whether other DUers agree with me or not does not make any fact so or not. There are lots of studies that show that serial rapists and others who abuse women are great users of porn. Edited to add that I know your opinion on this matter and do not see you as anti-feminist but do disagree with you on porngrapy. We might as well agree to disagree because we will not go forward on this subject.

[radwriter0555]

77. these women participate in this highly profitable industry of their free

will.

I especially appreciate the women who have taken the reigns from the men and who are now really profiting from it.

Exploiting and profiting from men's weakness is a great thing.

[liberalhistorian]

90. Do you realize how sexist your last sentence

really sounds? If you subsituted "women's weakness" for "men's weakness" you could hear the howls of outrage from hear to Timbuktu. Sexism is sexism, no matter what gender is exploiting the other.

[radwriter0555]

133. Well sure, but why should acknowledging the truth be a bad thing?

It might be a sexist statement, but the statement wouldn't be valid if it wasn't accurate.

I'm merely pointing out the truth.

[Krupskaya]

140. Educate yourself.

Most women involved in the porn industry are not there of their own free will.

[sendero]

164. That's bullshit..

... and I defy you to name a credible source for that assertion.

[Krupskaya]

192. You know what, you're right.

"Most" was too strong. Also, it's hard to find statistics on illegal activities -- videotaped beatings, rapes, assaults and forced sex acts bought and sold under the label of free speech and waved away by "she'd get away if she didn't WANT to be there."

Read Linda Lovelace's autobiography, "Ordeal."

As far as stats, the best I could do was find a USA Today report citing a University of Pennsylvania report saying that an estimated 325,000 U.S. children age 17 or younger are prostitutes, performers in pornographic videos or have otherwise fallen victim to "commercial sexual exploitation." Which is hardly a vindication of the industry.

[mongo]

195. You are not describing the "porn industry"

You are describing an illegal underground child porn network.

You are NOT going to find the tapes you describe at your local porn store. Every performer is over 18 years of age, ID's are checked and records are kept. Every video and DVD has a USC 18 para 2257 notice on it. All models sign a model release.

I've heard many conflicting reports on Linda Lovelace. Besides, that was in the 70's when the industry WAS underground. You have absolutly no idea what you are talking about.

[Book Lover]

167. Bullshit

Know anybody in porn? I do. You would better serve us women if you focused on how women's healthcare is being gutted in this country.

[Krupskaya]

193. Amazingly enough, I do too.

Also, please don't make assumptions about what I do in my free time. I also fail to see how getting raped up the ass for cash because she "wants to" does anything to further women's health care in this country.

[Book Lover]

165. How is enjoying porn a weakness? (nm)

[mongo]

102. "studies have shown"

There are lots of studies that show that serial rapists and others who abuse women are great users of porn.

I bet they all drank milk too. Corelation does not equal causation. Millions of responsable, non-violent, non-abusive men AND women enjoy adult entertainment - without becoming serial rapists.

Actually, there were studies too that showed that serial rapists and pedophiles tended to grow up in more sexually repressed households and generally viewed porn at a later age than the general population.

[efhmc]

107. I knew you would come back on that one.

Using the scientific method means taking all the same factors and having them all the same for all the test participants all the time (For example: all had intact homes, all went to public school, all drank milk, all went to church, etc.)and then reviewing the variables in their lives to look for matches. There was not an increase in these people's (rapist, murderers of women, abusers of women, etc.)lives of reading Nancy Drew mysteries. There was a common factor of watching porn. It is regarded that the viewing of porn to these men was a factor because of their inherent hate and disregard of women as humans. Porn gave them command over women. Now do I think that you and all the others who enjoy porn are evil or criminal. Of course not. I do have a personal opinion that porn is a devaluer of humans. As I said earlier, we will not agree, but I value your ideas and respect your right to express them.

[mongo]

111. And social researchers tend to find what they are looking for

because they are already biased to a particular conclusion.

The "porn made them do it" argument is no different than the temporance movement in the early 20th centruy which held that alchohol is a great factor in violence against women (no argument from me on that one). Yet, no one today brings up alchohol as being "anti-feminist".

If we are also going to charge porn as a factor in their crimes, how about the fact that most sexual abusers grew up in violent homes and were abused themselves? Yet we don't go arresting offenders parents.

The mlk comment was just to say that you can't make the leap from rapists watch porn, therefore porn is bad.

[efhmc]

113. Where did I say that "porn made them do it"? You will get no argument

from me at all about alcohol. It a constant factor in all types of abuse, across the board. I just do not now or will I ever be able to see porn's value but I do see its harm and I do see it as a "factor" in the continuation of the degradation and exploitation of women. And btw, the tests I quoted were looking for common factors in the perpetrators of crimes against women. No one was looking for porn, it was just there along with alcohol and abuse. (Edited for overuse of quotation marks. Yikes.)

[mongo]

127. But my pont is

that alchohol is the greatest factor in abuse, yet no one seems keen on protesting in front of bars, or blames alcholhol in and of itself as a causal factor in abuse. Yet if a rapist has ever seen porn - then it is porn that is bad.

Porn in and of itself is neither good or bad. It is not "exploitation of women", it is ENTERTAINMENT.

[efhmc]

134. Making alcohol illegal was tried just for the reasons you suggest and

it didn't work, remember. Pornography does exploit women. As I said way back, we will not go forward on this issue. I do not agree with you.

[mongo]

147. Pornography is demeaning to YOU

Many women enjoy making porn and many more still enjoy watching it.

Here is a quote from you in regards to abortion:

#40 They just cannot be progressive people and tell others what they should be doing with their own personal property and in this case that property is ones body.

Perhaps to be progressive, you need to expand that viewpoint to porn to.
Here are some of the things you have said in this post:

#134 Pornography does exploit women

#136 I believe that the exploitation of any person harms us all, no matter the age, sex, political party, sexual preference.

#94 I find it degrading. Just as some like to take their tops off and dance on table tops. I don't need to have done it to know that it is not my idea of fun and to find it personally demeaning.

#103 Well, some feel that it is inherently exploitive and therefore anti-female or anti-human.

#115 Believe it or not, many people do not want to sell their self respect for money.

You do seem to have an idea of what other women should be doing with their own bodies when it concerns making porn.

Porn is and of itself not degrading or good or bad. It is simply entertainment.

[efhmc]

152. Again, I have repeatedly used the word "I". Guess what? That means it is

my opinion and it continues to be my opinion. It is an industry that uses women (and men) as sex objects or commodities and as I said before making a human an object is degrading. I have never said that it should be abolished or made illegal or that you and those who agree with you do not have the right to think and feel the way you do. As a matter of fact, I said that I respected your opinion and the right to express it (and not just as a hollow sound of 2nd amendment right to say what you want, but in a profoundly personal manner) but somehow if I do not acquiesce to your position then you have the right to call me unprogressive and deny me the same rights I have never, ever said you should not enjoy. I disagree strongly about pornography. I find the industry without merit, not entertaining.

[CTLawGuy]

145. most serial rapists

breathe air repeatedly, therefore breathing must cause people to rape others. :eyes:

[blondeatlast]

151. Commerce and the consumer culture are far worse at objectifying women

than porn is, for the most part.

My son will get a much better impression about women from watching an hour of porn vs. an hour of MTV.

You say you've never witnessed it--I'll say no more. I am a librarian, and we get "challenges" from people all the time who've never experienced what they are complaining about--we are very insistent upon asking, too.

I consider myself a feminist, big-time. Your mileage may vary.

[mtnsnake]

78. I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Just because you might find someone who happens to be pro-porn and liberal at the same time, it doesn't mean that porn is acceptable in the eyes of most DUers. You can bet your bottom dollar that pornography is an interest that's common to conservatives as well as liberals, etc etc.

Whether or not porn is part of any of our lives or not, it is one of the lowest possible forms of degradation expressed towards women on the planet. The women who claim to make so much money doing porn think that money justifies what they do. That's BS.

Pornography is absolutely anti-feminist, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[QC]

80. "Pornography is absolutely anti-feminist, no ifs ands or buts about it."

What about gay porn?

[efhmc]

82. What can possibly make you think that being gay-lesbian makes one

automatically a feminist? Nor does that make porn less exploitive because it is about gay sex?

[QC]

84. So two guys fucking one another is somehow antifeminist?

That's certainly an interesting perspective. Please explain.

And, though I should not have to point out something so glaringly obvious, nowhere did I state that:

1. Being GLBT automatically makes one a feminist, or
2. The pornography industry is {on edit: not} exploitive.

I'm not sure where those came from. The statement to which I replied was an assertion that all pornography is always and everywhere antifeminist. Please try to respond to what people actually post.

[efhmc]

91. No, you quoted another post and then questioned it . I asked

(getting an inference that you obviously did not mean) why you think that gay sex is somehow in a different category. BTW, I think that all exploitation of all humans is anti-feminism which I interpret as equality and respect for all people.

[mtnsnake]

86. So now you're implying that gay porn makes one a feminist? Brilliant. n/t

[QC]

93. Actually I'm implying nothing of the sort, as you would know

if you had troubled yourself to read my previous reply or to think for maybe two seconds before firing off a snide, drive-by reply.

But since you're the one who made the statement, perhaps you can explain how there is an imbalance of power in two guys having sex. Not even Dworkin ever argued that. I find this fascinating and hope you can elaborate on it.

[efhmc]

95. Try reading my reply. I find it exploitive and things

that exploit any human being are anti-human, anti-female, anti-male.
(Edited the caps out. Don't like screaming. Rude and unnecessary. Sorry about that.)

[QC]

96. That reply wasn't directed at you. n/t

[efhmc]

100. Okay. Jumped the gun on that one. Apologies.

[QC]

108. No problem! n/t

[mtnsnake]

98. I said porn is anti-feminst. Then you said, "What about gay porn?

If that's not an implication by you that gay porn is not anti-feminist, then I don't know what is.

[QC]

106. Bingo!

I did quite clearly imply that gay porn is not antifeminist in the sense that people usually use the word, since there is not an imbalance of gender power in such a pairing, which is at the heart of the most common feminist critique of pornography.

If you can explain how pornography in which women do not participate at all, either as performers or viewers, is antifeminist, I would be interested in hearing it.

Of course, all pornography is exploitive--consider the rampant HIV, suicide, and drug abuse, among other things. But that was not your point: you stated that all pornography is always and everywhere antifeminist. I am curious as to what you base your assertion on, since it obviously cannot be a gender-related imbalance of power between the participants.

[mtnsnake]

110. Jayeesus! When I said "Pornography is absolutely anti-feminist"

I was not thinking of the subject of gay porn which you brought up soon afterwards.

BTW, I did not state that all pornography is always and everywhere antifeminist. I said, "Pornography is absolutely anti-feminist, no ifs ands or buts about it", and my statement was in regards to what the OP was talking about, and I thought she was talking about pornography between males and females at the time.

Next time I'll try to remember to prefix my statement with "Unless you're talking gay porn...."

[mongo]

114. May I suggest some Candida Royalle

A female director who I doubt you would find anti-feminist or degrading.

I think that the inability to see porn as simply entertainment has more to do with ones own viewpoints towards sex than it does about the medium.

[efhmc]

116. Now that is a very revealing statement. So if one doesn't agree with

you about pornography, one has sexual hangups. Now that is the argument people (men) have always used to get women to do what they desired at the expense of the woman's right to make her own decision about herself and her body usage.

[mongo]

121. Hmmm......

First of all, I used the term "viewpoints" not "hang-ups".

Now that is the argument people (men) have always used to get women to do what they desired at the expense of the woman's right to make her own decision about herself and her body usage.

I'm going to assume you are talking about negotiations about specific sexual practices between consenting adults. Let's say a woman doesn't like to perform fellatio. I can see where she then wouldn't like porn, because she is going to see women on film enjoying giving fellatio which would counter her viewpoint that fellatio is bad or "dirty".

What if we turn that argument around? Many men won't perform cunnilingus. Is that a hang-up? or not caring about pleasing your partner? Because that is what I hear about it from popular culture, and ancedotal experience (not me, I love going down on a lady, I'm a pleaser).

I guess my point is that we have a double standard. I see it all the time in the TV show "Talk Sex with Sue" on Oxygen. When a woman feels uncomfortable with something, she is just excersising control over her own body, but when a man is uncomfortable with some act, he just needs to get over it and do what he should be doing to satisfy his gal.

[efhmc]

128. I am always on the side of any person having the right to decide what is

right for his or her body, no matter what age or where they are. What I am talking about is not some conversation about sex or sexual pleasuring but the pressure that society bears on women to "please" men and that pressure is so ingrained in our society that it is hard to separate it from many things, including lots more than sex. I do think that labeling viewpoints by questioning someones own personal sexual practices is manipulative.

[mongo]

135. and I agree with you 100%

about people deciding for themselves what is right for them.

But I do encourage people to explore their boundries and try new things, after all the mind is our largest sex organ.

As far as society goes, there is pressure on men to please women too. Which is why penis size is something that men obsess on, and also whether you can bring your woman to orgasm - which more often than not, has more to do with the woman's anatomy and her mental/emotional state, than a man's performance.

I do think that labeling viewpoints by questioning someones own personal sexual practices is manipulative.

But your viewpoints (especially about sex), are formed by your experiences and the environment you grew up in. I was not trying to manipulate you. I was stating my views.

[efhmc]

181. Stating your views clearly and openly is warm and rewarding, not

manipulative and most if not all people love that. But labeling someone who disagrees as sexually repressed, cold, etc. is using words to gain what one wants. That is manipulation. (Please notice that I am not talking about any sex in particular here or saying that you said this.) Sort of tired of defending what I did not say.

[Terran]

131. I've been folowing this porn subthread, and I must say...

that it appears that if one doesn't agree with *you* about porn being anti-feminist, then one is anti-feminist. See how that cuts both ways? As with any subject, there are degrees and shades of meaning involved, but I've noticed a lot of sweeping generalizations in this discussion that are not supported by any facts.

I also find this statement a little odd:

Now that is the argument people (men) have always used to get women to do what they desired at the expense of the woman's right to make her own decision about herself and her body usage.

Now this is assuredly true if a woman is being forced to engage in nonconsenual sex acts for the purpose of creating pornography. There probably is some of that out there, and it shouldn't be tolerated--it's inherently criminal in nature. But for the rest of porn, well, it's presumed to be consensual and voluntary in nature unless you have some hard data that shows it's not. So how does that relate to a man depriving a woman of her "right to make her own decision about herself and her body usage." Keep in mind, we're talking about pornography here, not just basic sex between adults.

It seems to me that if you validate the idea that a man can deprive a woman of her right to self-determination simply by suggesting she has sexual hangups, then you yourself are severely underestimating most women's ability to do that in the first place.

And just to back up a little: I hereby agree that the porn industry is exploitative. It's a capitalist enterprise that exploits cheap labor as much as any other enterprise, and I understand that women usually make less then men in straight porn. So that's a no-brainer. What I object to is the idea that all porn is inherently bad and anti-feminist. I still haven't seen any good explanation from anyone as to why this is allegedly true; all I see are people's personal distaste for porn posing as objective fact.

As a gay man, I also think it's absurd to declare that gay male porn is anti-feminist. I also find it very difficult to conceive of Lesbian porn, created by and for Lesbians, as anti-feminist. I see that viewpoint as merely anti-sexual.

[efhmc]

136. Never stated my opinion as a fact and please show me where I did. I

cited studies that dealt with abusers of women as being user of pornography (among other factors). I believe that the exploitation of any person harms us all, no matter the age, sex, political party, sexual preference. I found the entire gay porn thing was misdirected and purposely missed the point.

[Terran]

148. I didn't say you were doing that.

That's actually the crux of why I jumped in here. What's bugging me here the most is the somewhat disingenuous shock expressed (with five question marks yet) in your thread title, "How can anyone (still absolutely astounded at this) consider him/herself a progressive/liberal of any sort and not be a feminist?????"; and, when you were asked to describe the things you've seen discussed on DU that are anti-feminist, you blithely included porn in the list as if it were a given that any porn-tolerant attitude is anti-female; and you had lots of heads nodding in sage agreement, saying in effect, "Gee, who could possibly disagree with that?"

But then, throughout the thread, you continually state that this is just your opinion and that other opinions, while you don't agree with them, are valid. It just struck me that you and several others on the thread are so utterly assured that all porn = exploitation of women and the rest of us must be anti-female for holding different opinions, and yet you concede that this is indeed ALL just a matter of opinion.

Do you see now how lots of us can consider ourselves feminist and still not agree with you? This is not a black and white issue, as your thread title would have us believe.

By the way, I DO agree with you on almost every other thing you mentioned in your list.

[mongo]

137. Thanks for the post

just one point of contention:

I understand that women usually make less then men in straight porn.

Actually, women (non star status), first-timers, etc get paid $600-$1000 for a scene, depending on the acts involved. A man with the same status in the industry gets $100

Porn performers are one of the few professions where women consistantly make more than men.

[Terran]

149. You're welcome

And I didn't know that. I've seen a couple of interesting docs on HBO, and thought I remebered it the other way around. I do recall with interest that gay porn performers make far more than straight performers, but I don't recall if that was explained.

[QC]

117. Not everyone in the world is heterosexual.

Just something to keep in mind....

[dsc]

173. and you are being anti gay

if I use the same standards you are using to judge people anti feminist. You, in essence, deny the existence of any gay porn in your statement. For the record, I know what you meant, but my point is that any kind of PC argument can be taken too far.

[Lilith Velkor]

194. Um, not to mention anti straight

As if women don't have sexual urges, no, that's all male imposition :grr:

[walldude]

89. Well I'm glad that someone who has never

seen any porn can end the argument so decisively. It reminds me of the Fundies wanting to ban books and movies that they have never seen, and don't need to see, they just know there is something wrong with it. Every once in awhile my wife and I like to watch a little porn, she is about as feminist and independant as they come, and she doesn't seem to mind all that horrible degradation of women in porn. :eyes:

[mtnsnake]

92. ummm, I think you responded to the wrong poster

It was someone else who said they've never seen any porn. I didn't say that.

[efhmc]

94. Your choice. I find it degrading. Just as some like to take their tops off

and dance on table tops. I don't need to have done it to know that it is not my idea of fun and to find it personally demeaning. To be paid for it is another issue.

[blondeatlast]

161. PERSONALLY demeaning, yet you want to judge the feminist credibility

of anyone who has a differing view.

I enjoy soft-core porn, and am not oblivious to the abuses of SOME hard-core porn.

But if one differing view makes me NOT a feminist in your eyes, then fine. Maybe I should retract all my efforts made in favor of women's rights, domestic violence, GLBT issues, and abortion rights.

Your OP was pretty vitriolic. With the political climate today, any oppressed group needs all the allies it can muster, IMHO.

I know many who will find my views on porn offensive, but to claim I'm not a feminist or a progressive because of them is not only disingenuous, it's downright insulting.

[blondeatlast]

160. I work in a library as reference staff. I'm on the front lines when

an item is "challenged."

The RW theocons do this all the time. They complain about something being objectionable, but when you ask them why, it's either a standard answer (they astroturf big time!) or they haven't read it, only seen the cover or seen a review.

Yeah, we take those compaints REAL seriously. :sarcasm:

[mongo]

99. So being a feminist

means you get to choose what is an acceptable career for another woman?

Whether or not porn is part of any of our lives or not, it is one of the lowest possible forms of degradation expressed towards women

Yep, some porn is degrading. But the stuff that is being put out by the big players in the industry, Vivid, Wicked and Adam & Eve is not degrading at all. Adam & Eve even has their films reviewed by a board of psychologists to determine that they are not "degrading". Unless of course you feel that a woman having sex on camera is ALWAYS degrading.

[mtnsnake]

101. Nope, it doesn't mean you get to choose what an acceptable career

is for another woman.

Probably it just gives you the right to voice your opinion in the hope that people will listen. Like anything else...

[Lilith Velkor]

139. Now there's a maddening thing.

A lot of people just don't understand kink and see it as a sickness. The whole reason porn exists is because of two things that are so common they can hardly be called kinks: voyeurism and exhibitionism.

Anyone who tells me I'm degraded for doing what thrills me and getting paid for it deserves no response but mocking laughter.

[mongo]

146. THANK YOU!

[geniph]

153. I'm with you, Lilith

I'm a) female, b) flaming take-no-shit feminist, c) not antiporn (although I think a lot of it is lame and some of it exploits both viewers and performers), and d) damned if I'll let anyone else tell me I'm a substandard feminist if I choose to behave in an exhibitionist manner. I happen to really like getting that kind of praise. I also like acting, political campaigning, and many other forms of performing that usually are done with all my clothes on. It's still the same kind of positive feedback I'm getting. I fail to see why one is automatically suspect because I might be showing more skin.

We have got the weirdest obsessions about nudity and sex in this culture. It's an utterly sex-negative culture. Bodies are dirty. Genitalia are dirty, and looking at them is exploitative. That's a strange mindset to me. It's somehow automatically assumed that anyone who either watches or performs sans clothing or in a sexual manner is doing something wrong. I think the porn industry historically has been pretty slimy, but I also think there are LARGE segments of it these days that are very pro-feminist and very healthily sex-positive. Those tend to be ignored by those who want to tar all erotica and porn with the same broad brush.

[efhmc]

163. I think the human body is a wonderful, fantastic thing and that

if our country were not so hung up on sex and nudity, it would be a much better, safer, saner place. I taught my children to love and be proud of their bodies. We called all body parts and functions by their real names and my only caveat was that one is just as responsible for her/his body as she/he is for anything else and that includes all of your parts, your mind and spirit, as well as your physical functions. It is the only thing that will be with you forever so use it, tend it and enjoy it.

[blondeatlast]

162. Well put! nt

[mongo]

124. In my experience

Porn IS acceptable to most DU'ers. The anti-porn crowd is the minority.

[mtnsnake]

176. So what's that supposed to mean?

That you're right, just because you think porn is acceptable to most DUers?

Last I knew, we weren't trying to determine if porn is acceptable or DU-friendly, but whether it's anti-feminist or not.

I'll bet you think I've never seen any porn or something. LOL

BTW, I don't think the majority of DUers stay up late at night wondering if they're either pro-porn or anti-porn. I wonder if most here take it with a grain of salt, although I'm sure there are a few who are either dead against it or wildly for it. Besides, there's too much gray area between being anti-porn or pro-porn.

Anyway, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not porn is anti-feminist.

[JHB]

190. Don't be so sure yourself

First of all, one of the core principles of feminism is the free agency of sexuality; engaging in "unauthorized" sexuality should not be a matter of public judgement. Don't think your view of what's "degrading" and what's not is the only one. There are plenty of women who didn't throw off the yoke of patriachal institutions dictating what kinds of sexuality were proper and acceptable only to have a new set of dictates and judgements come down from women who claimed their view was THE Feminist View.

Second, don't think what you mean by "pornography" is what other people think of. Some might be talking about something much broader than you, including things you don't regard as pornography. In other cases, you might be the one with the broader view, and have people nodding in agreement right up until they discover that you're condemning something they don't think is so terrible.

[ComerPerro]

138. Sure, I make sexually personal comments about women I don't like

But I also make them about men I don't like.

I called Bush impotent in another thread yesterday!

[salib]

2. Makes no sense to me.

Must be drinking that koolaid on the side.

[MuseRider]

3. You got me.

:shrug: I can't even see why such a thought about equal rights for anyone would be controversial. :shrug: Funny. Tonight is a double :wtf: night for me.

[lastknowngood]

4. Remember the DLC'ers consider themselves to be "progressive"

delusion appears to be almost universal when one tries to protect ones ego.

[efhmc]

11. This group right here is what makes me scream. There are so many

young men here who seem worse than the men I grew up with and that was in Texas in the 60's. At least they didn't pretend to be liberals.

[Lerkfish]

14. yeah, that's pretty lame...

DLC'ers are many things, but progressive they're not.

[StepfordWife]

5. Just a thought...

Maybe not here on DU (I'm a brand spanking new poster!), but I think that there's certainly a negative stereotype of femininsts that seems to tie into a misunderstanding of what feminism is (i.e., all feminists are man-haters who burn bras and do radical things like occupy the offices of Ladies' Home Journal).

It's a phenonmenon that I do find astounding. At the same time, though, considering the deep cultural underpinnings here, as well as how the media is inclined to report on some feminist issues, it's not necessarily surprising.

[MuseRider]

7. Welcome to DU!

I burned my bra in High School and my father almost beat me silly. He was NOT a feminist! :hi:

Edit for spelling

[efhmc]

12. Bully for you. What was your Mom's stance? Quiet or otherwise?

[MuseRider]

20. She did

whatever my father told her to do. It was quite archaic. It is no wonder I fight these fights, nothing pisses me off more than judgemental ideas that have no basis in reality. We are PEOPLE, all of us with the same right to rights.

[cally]

41. Wow..;.I thought that was a myth

Kewl...Sorry for the beating though.

As many know, I went to Berkeley. A male friend from HS came up to visit and see if he wanted to transfer. All he kept saying, is the women don't wear bras. By that time, I was so used to it that I didn't think it was different at all. :shrug:

[efhmc]

46. I remember how so very very much I hated it when I began to wear a bra.

The other girls were so thrilled and excited but I absolutely thought it stunk. I remember this one girl that we thought was so wild because she would put on jeans and sweatshirt with no bra after studing late and go on campus to get a coke and candy bar. WICKED!!

[MuseRider]

48. Some actually did

burn them in a ceremonial setting but mostly it is used to just say you stopped wearing them.

[efhmc]

8. (Gosh, I hope that name is not for real.) We are really expecting MORE

from the people here, like understanding that rights are for EVERYONE, even those who burn bras and occupy offices (LHJ seems a bit silly to me) and most of us expected that by now the liberals, at least, would not only be understanding the need to fight for equal rights for all but would have stopped arguing about the triteness of words and be doing the work to make it happen.

[StepfordWife]

18. name is not real...

Though I'm a big fan of the 1974 version of the movie, which somehow manages to be wonderful in its terribleness.

The LHJ occupation was in the early 1970s I believe. It does seem a bit silly now, but fashion magazines and Miss America were issues for the women's lib movement.

At this moment, I do expect more from society, and I like to think (perhaps in my youthful optimism), that someday we'll get there. I also agree that, in many ways, the issue is one of semantics, especially with all of the (horrible, for the most part) cultural connotations surrounding it. It is very frustrating...I agree whole-heartedly with you.

[Kerrytravelers]

69. Welcome to DU... from a feminist married to a male feminist!

[efhmc]

81. Nice to have a true partner in life. Congratulations.

[Kerrytravelers]

172. Thank you.

We may not have a lot. We've watched employment come and go. This year, when doing our taxes, we came to the reality that we made 75% LESS than we did just two short years ago. We can't afford vacatations, gifts for one another, a better place to live. But we have the most important thing that money can't truly buy- respect for one another. I realize how fortunate I am and thank God every day that I was lucky enough to find the right person because it sure doesn't happen to a whole helluva lot of people.

[efhmc]

183. My husband was killed about 10 years ago in an accident so please

kiss, love, hug and enjoy every minute that you can. I gave him a kiss goodbye one morning and never saw him again. Getting maudlin here, sorry about that.

[efhmc]

185. Sorry I went off on my personal sob story. I love visualizing you two.

Have a great time enjoying one another.

[Kerrytravelers]

186. I am so very sorry for your loss. Never apologize for sharing your grief.

I can not imagine losing my husband. What a deep loss for you. It is obvious how much you love him. Your response to me was so heartfelt.

Thank you.

Feel free to PM me anytime you want!

kt

[MissB]

10. Welcome to DU!

Your username looks familiar. :hi:

[Tsiyu]

188. Just a thought

in each post here, you've used the terms "women's lib," "bra burner" and "man-hater"

As a person who has been discussing feminism for many, many years, I have to tell you that, after examining each post, I think you must be an older gentleman - just a guess - who wants to engage in some sort of discussion about feminism but you aren't sure how.

The terms you use are outdated. They are so old they don't even make anyone mad anymore.

Here's another thought: If you would like to discuss feminism, be genuine about who you are and why you feel the way you do. Be honest. That's the best way for humans to communicate- in truth.

[StepfordWife]

196. Actually, I am neither.

I'm a 19-year-old female college student. I promise.

I do want to engage in a discussion about feminism, and I will be the first to admit that, in many ways, I don't know how. As I said above, I'm pretty young, and I wasn't here during the feminist movement.

The question was about why progressive people might not identify themselves as feminist. I explained why I thought many might not. I do believe that, in many ways, the word is loaded and has negative connotations. I used the phrases above to describe said negative connotations.

I didn't mean to offend or insult. Honestly.

[Spinzonner]

9. What's so bad about Barefoot and Pregnant

:-)

[efhmc]

15. Have you ever been the latter?

[coffeenap]

17. Nothing as long as it is my CHOICE, not my required role--

and it isn't snowing!;-)

[efhmc]

22. Choice is a good word for that and most human conditions.

[question everything]

55. You forgot the kitchen

[Kerrytravelers]

70. If one choose to be barefoot and pregnant, and it is a mutual decision

then go for it! But if one is forced to become a baby machine... time to call in the feminists to the rescue!

[Nite Owl]

13. What I have noticed is a lot of

younger women don't seem to 'get it'. They have no idea what was fought for and what they have because of groups like NOW and other womens groups. It's all just always been there for them, they grew up being able play sports. When my husband and I got married we were both teachers and the banks wouldn't consider my salary---because I could get pregnant and then it wouldn't count. We aren't where we should be today and the fact that we can move backwards and lose ground just doesn't seem to get through.

[efhmc]

19. My fiance (later husband) was without a job but he and other males

were sent credit cards upon college graduation and I who had finished college early and had a job could not get one without a male's signature. TALK about a mad 20 year old!!!

[MuseRider]

23. These stories

just go on and on. I could tell so many but it does get old doesn't it? I still fight getting mail that has Mrs. My Husband's Name. I refuse to open them since that is NOT me, like I am a shadow of his :rofl:. Caused a few problems but I stick by it.

[efhmc]

27. Honey, I am a bunch older than you and I NEVER went by MRS.

(As a matter of fact neither did my mother.)I once had a meltdown in a Houston public library because they would not issue my card without my husband's name on it (in the early 70's). They were all "just get the card. It's only words." Well those words of identity meant something to me then and now. I also always had a checking account with my name only on it. Small but effective fights for the rights women now take for granted.

[MuseRider]

33. HAHAHA

I LOVE you! I had a meltdown on a trip in Alaska. My husband and my sons, both young teens, were given "credit cards" and keys to the room but I was not. Why? Because I was a female and they usually only gave them to the "men" in the families. I blew up and lectured the young women dispensing the cards and keys. I asked them if I really looked joined at the hip with anyone in my family etc, etc. Afterwords two older women applauded me. Don't even ask me what I said to the waiter who would not take an order from me but waited for me to tell my SON what I wanted for lunch so he could get it for "the little woman." I thought this kind of crap was over until that trip. I spent the entire trip livid with these people.

Yes those words mean something, identity means nothing if you are always the one who gets to have one. They do not understand nor do they care.

I had to ask the water company who would not put a water line in at MY farm if I really needed a penis to write the check. That stopped them.

[efhmc]

35. These things happened recently? Here is one for you. In the 90's,

my husband and I bought the house his mom had rented forever because she was always "fixing" to die (she didn't want any more property in her estate). Well, we went to the closing and they had the phrase, John Doe and wife Jane in the contract. I hit the roof and refused to sign. Only procedure, means nothing and all of the rest of that crap. Okay, I said since it really is only archaic law and means nothing change it to Jane Doe and husband John. We can't, won't be legal, etc., still refusing, funding needs to be done. etc., losing time and all of the rest of it. My husband, who was not a patient man, is waiting because he knows this is not going to happen until and if they change the text. Which they did, not perfect but it read John Doe, husband and Jane Doe, wife. This garbage is now no longer necessary for legal papers to be signed. SCORE!!!

[MuseRider]

39. It has all happened

in the last 10-15 years. Wow, that is some story. I used women to buy my farm, a woman realtor and a woman title lawyer so that went well but the rest was like pulling teeth. We should all get together and write a book and send it out to high school girls. They just do not know and everything I see and hear makes me think we are going to lose it all very soon.

SCORE indeed, well done! Sure, it means nothing to them. My husband would die if that was reversed and he had to be the nameless face on the document.

[JHB]

191. I don't think a book would do it...

...(though I could be wrong, and if nothing it's a start), but to get through to teenagers these days a girls-night-out combined with a little old-fashioned conscience-raising would get through easier: clips of old movies and tv shows with a range of examples of how different things were back in the Bad Old Days.

And, frankly, the same thing for boys, who'd be less easy prey for anti-feminist rhetoric if they really had an idea about how apalling things could be back then.

There are probably already things like this around, there just needs to be more.

It's worth noting that REAL anti-feminists (fundies and such) do this (well, not this but its opposite) as part and parcel of youth groups, youth camps, etc.

[newportdadde]

105. Wow

You were willing to not close on a home over verbage in one of the tens of thousands of forms you have to sign? You really showed em.

[efhmc]

118. You are a man. You are a person who has never had to be concerned

about being an "and wife" or an appendage to one of you. Therefore, you can not now nor will you ever understand this. Yes, that is what I am very proud to say that I did. At that small moment I had some power to stop what to me was a wrong and right it, so I did.

[newportdadde]

132. Nice reply. I like that....

You know how you felt marginalized with your name as wife, Jane? Thats how a "your just a man you can't understand" comment feels to a man.

I'm a man so I can't possibly understand or empathise, I couldn't have ever seen similiar happen to my wife and have been furious.. nope never happens. Couldn't have my own experiences from which could give me some insight.. nope nada. It is this kind of attitude that takes a man in the middle and turns him to a damn Rush listener.

I've seen other threads you have done and it seems to me you are very passionate about this and you set your own personal bar as a test for what is truly a feminist and anyone whom does not meet that bar isn't good enough or is doing something wrong. My wife thinks its over the top as well.. does that make her a bad lifetime female Democratic voter or not a good feminist?

[Pithlet]

142. You are the one

Who seems to have the problem, here. You took offense at someone insisting that legal documents recognize her as an individual, and not just an appendage of her husband. The response you got was 100% deserved. You obviously don't understand. And, she did not use the word "just". She merely stated that you are a man. If you hadn't have responded to her in the manner you did, you would not have received such a well deserved response. You do not understand. And your response proved that.

And before you say "I wasn't offended!", you took the time to post this, and you responded as if what the poster did was outrageous. How DARE she hold up proceedings over such a trivial matter!!!! Damn feminists. That attitude was dripping from your post.

[alittlelark]

144. I'll second that... the last line or two were, um, oddly worded

[Pithlet]

170. Yeah.

If insisting a name be right on a legal document is radical over the top feminism for some, then clearly we still have a way to go.

[geniph]

155. Um, I wouldn't close with the names wrong, either

The title could be challenged as invalid if both parties are not named in full. It's not correct to only give a portion of either spouse's name; both names should be completely spelled out.

My experience with my mortgage was a bit different; originally, because my husband and I had married before we closed and this is a community-property state, they did the mortgage papers with both names on them. They then had to go back and correct the entire package, because the mortgage company wouldn't ALLOW my husband's name to be on the loan or the title; that was a condition of lending the money (he was unemployed at the time, and I make quite a respectable salary). In fact, they made him sign a quit-claim. (If I had it to do over, I'd wait to get married until after we closed! It surely complicated everything.)

The name business is very serious and personal to me. I've never changed my name (I've been married twice), never even considered it, and neither of my husbands has had the slightest problem with that. It's my NAME. That's who I AM. There's been some occasions - bizarre that this is still an issue - when he and I having different names has caused problems, but that seems to be lessening somewhat. With my first husband, there was actually this one dimwit at one loan office who would not permit us to sign as spouses unless we signed a separate statement that we were indeed married but using different names, and HAD IT NOTARIZED. Dumbest damn thing - apparently, she'd never seen spouses each with their own surname before. :eyes:

(This was only 15 years ago, by the way.)

[Nikia]

158. For some reason, medical account is in my husband's name

Even though I hold the health insurance. Even though I have been employed at the same job since we have been in the area, using this health care organization while he has gone through periods of unemployment, including the time I made my first doctor's appointment there.
The only reason that I don't complain is because we have some outstanding medical bills and I have better credit.

[Nite Owl]

37. I went on a trip with my son

just 7yrs ago and they put the name for the room in HIS name, he was 14. Boy did I blow up. Heads turned in that lobby. I got sent flowers. I took that as an apology.

[efhmc]

42. What an idiotic idea. Did they think he was paying the bill?

[Nite Owl]

50. It was charged with my credit

card in my name. It was from a Visa points program so it was totally my credit.

[efhmc]

52. Well, then they were just not very good at customer relation since you

were the customer with the cash. Here and in most places a person who is underage cannot even get a hotel room without an adult in charge, even a male person has to be of age.

[MuseRider]

43. DAMN!

That is even worse than my story! The room? Did you tell them thanks since there was no way he could pay for it you would take that as a free room? :eyes:

[Nite Owl]

51. I tried being polite and bringing it to

the desk clerks attention. He thought it was 'cute'. That's when I blew up. This was at the height of fall foliage season in progressive Vermont too not in a red state. I hope it accomplished one thing: that they will take a woman seriously in the future.

[mongo]

54. I don't think that's true today

my 20yo daughter gets credit card solicitations all the time and she's still in school.

[efhmc]

122. Nope, you're right. Many things have changed and that was part of what

started the idea for this thread. The idea that these freedoms and rights are so taken for granted. The idea that few will id themselves as feminist who are and many who are progressives and should be feminists are not. Hurrah for the 20 year olds of today. I hope they take their freedoms and use them well.

[StepfordWife]

26. Great point! (And great thread, to the OP!)

I think a lot of young women don't know what was fought for, and they don't understand what it was like 50 years ago (however, I don't pretend to understand what it was like to grow up as a young woman the 50's).
Interesting story...
In my women's history class the other day, after reading a book by Sara Evans, there were literally numerous college-aged women raising their hands and announcing to the class "I am not a feminist."

[efhmc]

29. They are liars and hypocrites in the very best baby bush manner.

They are using all the rights and privileges granted to them by the long hard work of suffragettes and feminists. They need to give up their right to vote, have jobs, be educated, have their own ids and own property in their own names, make decisions about their own bodies (not just about abortion but about any type of birth control and even the right to retain their children after divorce) maybe then they can say they are not feminists.

[raccoon]

126. Amen to that!

I get annoyed when I hear that, "I'm not a feminist," stuff.

I think for one thing, the term has been demonized, same as the way the term "liberal" has been demonized.

And because of the idiot media always focusing on the cuckoos, many people still think of feminists as "bra-burners."

[Tsiyu]

66. What was the Title of the Book?

And why did these women say they were not feminists? Any reasons given?

[StepfordWife]

180. Tidal Wave: How Women Changed America at Century's End

Most said something to the effect of either "I think feminism's time has passed" or "I don't want to be associated with a movement of man-haters and bra-burners, even though I do believe in equal rights for women."

[Tsiyu]

187. Their language seems rather dated for college kids

Just my opinion.
"Man haters and bra burners" as a pejorative phrase to describe an entire philosophy of life seems to me to indicate that these college women ( girls?) are not very profound or deep thinkers.

The bra-burner rhetoric truly sounds like something a 65-year-old man would say. It saddens me that college students and grown men like yourself ( I assume) haven't been able to learn about the history of feminism and come to any better understanding of what it means than to use a dated, insipid phrase like that.

Very sad for our nation. BTW. Jesus was a feminist.

[question everything]

57. But this is true in all fields

There are many who absolutely hate unions, conveniently ignoring the fact that it was unions that brought us the five days work week, the paid sick days and vacations, and the child labor laws - all conditions that they would not be caught dead working without.

Similarly, you will see young women in all occupations declaring that they are not feminists, not knowing what that really means.

It is too easy for the demagogues to grab on something simple and unimportant and to wave it. You don't need to look too far back to see who abortion and gay marriage determined the recent elections, even though if voters were asked, it is the security of their jobs, access to health care and a dignified retirement that are the most important. And that, sadly, Kerry did not communicate well.

[efhmc]

87. Fear is what it is about. Fear of not fitting in and fear of change. But

just try to take away some of their rights that came about through hard won change and see how loudly they scream.

[Kerrytravelers]

71. My issue with the younger generatrion (that I am certianly a part of due

to my age) is that they mistake wome's liberation with the concept of whoring themselves out. Sexual freedom meant lifting the double standard on having sex prior to marriage. It was about making choices for our bodies in regards to reproductive freedom. It was about being taken seriously in matters of education and employment alongside men.

Young girls today dress provocatively and think "playing dumb" to get boys is the way to go. They allow themselves to be used sexually and treated like garbage in an effort to secure boys. They also have no knowledge of what the women before them went through to give them more opportunities.

Obviously this ins't true for ALL young women/girls today. But when I talk to women from the Second Wave, I hear this repeatedly.

[catzies]

197. Yeah. The "I'm not a feminist, but..." young women. The other side

was as successful at demonizing "feminist" the way they demonized "liberal."

I'm not a feminist, but...
I appreciate the right to help choose my government representatives. I enjoy the option of wearing pants or shorts if I want.
I'm pleased that I was allowed to learn to read and write.
It can be very convenient to control how many babies I want to have. It's awfully useful to be able to open a bank account and own property in my name.
I like knowing that my husband or boyfriend cannot legally beat me. It's really swell to keep the money that I earn.

more here
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~elk/feminismquotes.html

[sweetheart]

16. What is a feminist to you?

I was debating this in another thread, and i use the original
definitions of feminine and masculine from thousands of years back,
where feminine is darkness, mystery, power, lucidity, moon... and
masculie is light, order, sensitivity, subtlety, sun....

In that sense, feminine may not agree, and speaks from its mystery,
sometimes in gross polarity to rationality, a chaos that is itself
a power not understood, but no less potent than its masculine opposite.

And are not both men and women made of both halfs, just one more
dominant than the other. Is not definining feminism itself a sort of
betrayal of being feminine?... I do believe that those who's
politics come from the heart are feminists, and from the mind,
patriarchs... and goddammmit... we need more feminists to balance
out this terrible imbalance.

namaste,
-s

[efhmc]

21. You are right. Whenever the natural elements of this earth get out of

balance (as they certainly are now in soooo many ways)society suffers.

[MuseRider]

25. So true.

I sometimes wish it was safe to be feminine but it is not. It does not pay to let down your guard unless you can trust who you are with. Stinks.

[FloridaPat]

24. Women have been brainwashed for centuries. I've been a feminist

all my life and didn't know how badly I'd been brainwashed until I went to a workshop about 5 years ago. Discrimination against women is so pervasive, a lot of the time you don't know it's being done.

Take families: if there are no children, there is no future and no civilization. A lot of women prefer being home with the kids. On the other hand, women are taught job skills that are hard to make a good living at, so in one way they are forced into marrige thinking it's a great deal. For a lot of people, it's good. But for the women who want to do other things - she's trapped.

It starts in schools. There was a show on Donahue years ago about who girls are subconsiously discriminated against in our schoools. There is a belief that a smart girl will never get married. So girls don't like to look smart. In the schools, teachers want the kids to raise their hands and she calls on people. But the boys call out the answers and it goes on that way until the girls start calling out. Then the rules change. Girls are taught that how you look is more important that what you know and boys are taught the other way around. Girls are taught that the greatest thing they can do is have babies and boys are taught that the best thing is a career. Boys are taught trades that make money, girls aren't. Girls are taught that what women do is not worth anything and boys are taught that everything they do is important - sports for scholarships, jobs to get cars and dates.

It's a rough road and hard to see. A lot of jokes or distrimination against women - if you substitute African Americans instead of women - you will see that it's discriminatory and not funny. Try it sometime.

The answer - start respecting mothers for being mothers and career ladies for being career ladies. Russia use to pay the women to have babies and they were given a year off with pay. That's changed now that they are a democracy.

When all the discrimination that has gone on in the last 200 years - just imagine where we could have been if all citizens had equal input and equal respect in this country. More than half the brain power has not been used.

[efhmc]

58. Sorry that I did not see or read you complete answer earlier. I

really think what you say about girls is changing (at least a little) but we have a very long way to go. I have alway advocated for moms. They do not get enough support in any way but their job is of the greatest important. Sorry I skipped over your great reply.

[hecate77]

65. Have to agree that things are still pretty bad

I've been involved in Women's rights and Lesbian rights from the 60s on. I have seen many, many changes in those years, many of them for the better. However, things are still pretty bad for women throughout this country, at the very least. I cannot speak for all other countries, but I can speak from my own experience in this one.

Let me give you a an example.....

Year 1990 or thereabouts. I have a PhD in Theoretical Physics and was working on contract with the Department of Energy to enhance computer collection of airborne particulate data. This operation was run out of Sandia National Labs, using some small twin engined planes (Twin Otters) which were loaded with enough gear to have them classified as experimental aircraft. My job required me to go in at about midnight so I could have access to the aircraft between flights. I showed up the first night and was denied access to the plane by the guy running the hanger. The next day, I came over there with my contract contact from the Labs and listened in on this conversation snippet:

The guy: "If you can guarantee me that Ms. Maisie Fumblefingers here will not blow up my aircraft, then I suppose I will have to let her in there." (This said in my presence as if I were not there)

The next day, after he found out I had a doctorate, he said to me:

"Hello Dr. S...., I hear you make wonderful jams and jellies. I would love it if you would bring some in."

Ok, now, this is the 90s, after all that work we did to get some rights, and I suppose having the job of jelly maker to an asshole is an improvement to some jobs women have had to take, but still, is this anywhere near equality?

So, what did we fight for? So we could have the positions men no longer want? We can be astronomers, because men are more interested in particle physics these days? I also tutored lots of women when I was in graduate school, and I saw the systematic degradation of self-worth and its effects on female students. When I taught undergraduate physics later on, I taught to the women as much as I could, figuring the men had everything handed to them from the get go. Women were too often convinced that they were not intelligent enough to grasp what the men could.

I remember overhearing a young woman complaining about feminists and what did they ever do for us (this is in the mid 90s). She was unaware that the only reason she had sports teams to play on in high school was because of the fights we won in the 60s and 70s.

I have a niece, who was shaping up to be a brilliant mathematician. She was always talking to me about science and math, and seemed very excited about pursuing this to the graduate level. She met a guy in college. This guy's brain-washed mother insisted that math was no subject for a girl, and brow-beat her into dropping her science studies and going to nursing school. Now, nursing is a fine profession, if that is what you choose for yourself, but it is a lousy substitute for someone who was on the path to a brilliant math career. This again, in the early 90s. So often, they use other women to keep us in line, so it appears that our enemy is other women, and not the men who cowed and beat them into submission, victim's of some weird kind of Stockholm Syndrome, siding with their owners and controllers and destroying the lives of their daughters.

How soon we forget, and how easily we let people belittle and demean us, calling us 'feminists', of all things, as if it were a dirty, dirty, little word. Letting the radical right-wing nuts define our words. How did Feminist become a dirty word? Ask Rush. Ask Reagan. Ask and idiot repug theocrat. And to think we then internalized it to the point of almost being afraid to use the word anymore, just like we are afraid to use the word liberal. Well, maybe it is time to take back our words.

Well, feminist is not a dirty word. A feminist is the ultimate progressive, the one who is for equality for everyone. Everyone. No exceptions. No excuses. A feminist is one who values all of nature, and not just for the wealth it could bring her or him. Men as well as women can and must be feminists. Not Rush Limbaugh's definition of a feminist, but a truly egalitarian, open-hearted, open-minded person dedicated to an end to poverty, an end to violence, an end to corporate greed, you name it, if it is progressive, a feminist will support it.

You know, men should be proud be be called feminists. It is a sign that that person does not feel threatened by equality for all, by fairness for all. It is a sign of maturity, to be able to wear that label and not care what the right-wing nuts think.

(Sometimes I yearn for my days as a Radical Lesbian Separatist Feminist, but I know that we all have to do this together, and that, for me, at least, separatism was not the answer.)

Still, we have too few women in government, and often the ones there are shills for men. We have too few Barbara Jordans, Shirley Chisolms, Barbara Boxers, Hillary Clintons, Carol Brauns, Nancy Pelosis, and other good and strong women in our government.

Until all people are free, no one will be free. Until all people are equal, no one will be equal.

Well, I guess I have some strong feelings about this. I haven't written this much on feminism since my early days as a radical in Boston. Whew.

[Tsiyu]

67. Good post

and belated welcome to DU.

:)

[MajorFlaw]

72. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[FloridaPat]

73. Nicely said. Thank you. Thought you were a writer.

[efhmc]

79. An amazing post. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and

life stories with us. I wish you would post your great definition of feminism here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.
php?az=view_all&address=105x3178596 Perhaps it might be read by those most needing the help.

[Just Me]

141. Powerful post!!!

:yourock:

The demeaning and belittling,...oh, yea,...it still happens. I cringe at my own experiences.

Thank you for such a powerful post!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

150. This post should be its own thread

[Misunderestimator]

156. Hear Hear! "I Am A Feminist!"

Brilliant post! :thumbsup:

[The Flaming Red Head]

28. I agree but they (anti-feminist)seem to be welcome in the party

and I guess we have no choice but to put up with them, which is a scary thought, enough to make me give up on voting or vote for alternate parties that do back my right to choose.

[efhmc]

30. This idea of "putting" up with those folks instead of fighting them

is putting us on the road to total destruction. We will be something else entirely if that is the case. We will definitely not be progressive people.

[The Flaming Red Head]

34. They don't give us much choice

they (democrats) embrace them and run them as candidates. I'm ready for a new party of true progressives.

[efhmc]

36. The progressive feminists. It has a very nice ring to it.

[The Flaming Red Head]

49. They act like they don't need us at all

I'm sick of what passes for democrat these days and I don't feel very nice about it.

My friends keep asking "Are we going to vote at all?" Not if there is no one to vote for that covers our backs. What's the point of it anymore?

[radwriter0555]

31. I'm PROUD to ALWAYS declare myself a Liberal Democrat Socialist Feminist.

ALWAYS have.

[efhmc]

32. Well, we knew that. We are not worried about you. You are the backbone.

[liberalhistorian]

38. I know that there are certain

DUers who are of the "feminists for life" variety that take every possible opportunity to state their opposition to abortion and why everyone should just bow down to their great knowledge and wisdom because they alone know what's best for the rest of us dumb bimbos. Sickening! :puke:

[efhmc]

40. Total new term to me. I am happy for them to have their opinion about

abortion or anything else. They just cannot be progressive people and tell others what they should be doing with their own personal property and in this case that property is ones body.

[liberalhistorian]

88. I'm surprised you haven't heard of

Feminists for Life, they're a nationwide group. They claim to be the "real" feminists (gag!), because they believe that no true feminist would advocate "murdering their child" and that abortion does far more damage to women than us evil pro-choicers will admit. Yeah, right.

[efhmc]

120. Thankfully, that one passed me by also.

[Misunderestimator]

157. "Feminists for life" variety of DUers?

What exactly is that? Oops... misread... never mind... If it's what you described in #88, I hate them too :)

[efhmc]

182. Very misleading or maybe misunderestimated. (That is a joke.)

[reverendpatrick]

44. I am a Feminist.

'Nuff said.

[efhmc]

47. Welcome here and everywhere. We are happy to have you.

[cally]

45. Too many are threatened by feminists

I think some is that gender rolls have changed somewhat rapidly and it is confusing to figure out new rolls. Mostly, I think it's easier to not change and try to understand how offensive some of their ideas and opinions are.

[Bouncy Ball]

59. I'm a humanist.

I believe in equality.

[efhmc]

60. Anyone with a picture of a pet flower must be nice and for equality.

[Bouncy Ball]

61. ???

:wtf:

[efhmc]

62. Isn't that a flower puppy?

Pretty sleepy here.

[Bouncy Ball]

63. Well, yeah...

but I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or what.

Sorry if you weren't. I was trying to read into your comment!

:rofl:

It's not my dog, but isn't he beautiful? I fell in love with his eyes and had to have it as my sig pic.

[efhmc]

64. Nope just admiring your choice of sweet pictures. Usually a little more

awake. Goodnight. (I like it, I like it.)

[Tsiyu]

68. If you benefit from a system, why change it?

It seems many "progressives" still benefit from the patriarchal system.

Men benefit, obviously, by being taken seriously, by being considered competent merely by virtue of gender.

Women who can manipulate this sytem- who know how to say the correct things and who never threaten men - also benefit.

The men and women who buck the system have a tougher go of it in the workplace and in society. Sometimes it's easier to give in to a mindset, even when you know it's wrong, than to stand one's ground and be fired, stigmatized or worse.

I have horror stories, too, as a 46-year-old woman, and I continue to be appalled at younger women who have no idea what was done so that their lives and talents would be more helpful and meaningful to their families and their society.

Well, you don't know what you got til it's gone....

[efhmc]

74. Interesting thoughts. Although, we'd still be part of GB with that mindset

[Misunderestimator]

75. Narrow-mindedness and supreme self-centeredness... that's how...

boggles, doesn't it? :crazy:

[efhmc]

83. No, sadly, it seems rather par for the course.

[FloridaPat]

76. Things that are anti-women in the US:

1. Movies - we are half the population and a lot of the big movies have no women in them. Some just 1 or 2.

2. How to demean a man - call him a girl. I am getting REAL tired of that one.

3. Where ever there are a lot more women workers then men, the pay is low. If there are a lot more men then women, the pay is high. Cheap restaurants have a lot of women and expensive restaurants have a lot to all men waiters.

4. Supposedly 75% of the people on the INTERNET at any one given time are looking for porn.

5. Women are still judged by what they look like and men are judged by how they do the job.

6. A lot of jobs are still mostly or all men - religious leaders, high paying sports - remember the lady that couldn't play at the golf course?


And I'm sure there are a lot more.

[efhmc]

85. You are right. the motto should be, "You have a long way to go, baby."

But what really disturbs me are the amounts of people who are throwing away and deriding the rights that we fought so hard to gain.

[bloom]

119. A lot of comedy

is anti-women. I think that's where a lot of guys get the attitude that it's funny to bash women.

There are some "comedy" shows my (adult) son would have on that I find unwatchable. I expect some men like it like that - like the bars where women were expected to stay out of - so it would just be a "guy" experience. I walked into one in a small town - say 10 years ago - and you would have thought a martian had just walked in.

Of course I like comedy by women (and by the men that aren't women-bashing).

[raccoon]

129. Adult women being called "girls"

even women in their 40s and 50s. My pet peeve.

Call me a woman, call me an active adult, don't call me a girl.

[efhmc]

130. The men around town find it sweet to call this little old lady, young lady

They are nice guys really, if a bit condescending. As in "what can I do for you, young lady?" kind of funny, really.

[Nikia]

175. This bothered me too about my workplace

One superviser referred to all the women as girls, even ones who were close to retirement age. It just seemed silly to me.

[Arkana]

97. Well, I agree with you.

I don't think you can be a progressive and not support equal pay, equal rights, etc. for women.

I don't exactly understand how the porn thing gets into it, though.

[efhmc]

103. Well, some feel that it is inherently exploitive and therefore anti-female

or anti-human.

[mongo]

104. Working for Walmart is inhernetly exploitive and therefore

anti-human. More so than being a performer in adult.

[efhmc]

109. There is great potential to be exploited in all of corporate America but

if you think I or anyone can argue to my first generation Hispanic friend whose two daughter work for Wal-Mart (the only place, sadly employing folks in this one horse town) that they would be less taken advantage of in the porn industry, you are going to have a very hard row ro hoe.

[mongo]

112. I doubt if the women in porn

who make as much in 4 hours work as your friend's daughter makes in a week would agree with you.

[efhmc]

115. Believe it or not, many people do not want to sell their self respect for

money.

[mongo]

123. Believe it or not, many people do not believe that working in

adult is "selling their self respect"

[efhmc]

125. (If this is an inappropriately personal question, let me know. Would you

want this career for your daughter? Would you advise her to go into "adult entertainment"?) To answer your comment, and many, many do. Doesn't prove a thing.

[mongo]

143. There are a lot of careers I wouldn't advise my daugher to go into

Joining the Army or working for Walmart are some examples.

But my daughter is a semi-pro belly dancer (not a stripper). She teaches belly dance and occasionally does greek weddings and the like. I made some joking comment about her going to the local strip club on ameteur night - and she declined. Truth is to be a stripper you have to have no reservations about using men and parting them from their money. But I wouldn't mind at all if she had gone and was working the summers at the local strip club (she's in collage). I sell lingerie and t-backs (regulation stripper underwear) and garters and I special order their shoes for cheap, so I know most of the strippers in town. I get to see them with their toddler in tow and deal with them on a more human level than the guys do at the club.

If she WANTED to work in adult and had the personality to do it, more power to her. It would be her choice, and I can think of lots of worse things she could be doing with her life. She has clerked for me at the store in the past.

[efhmc]

154. Thanks for being so straight forward. Sounds like a great person.

I know we can agree that our daughters (sons too, don't have any myself )are wonderful, no matter what else we cross swords on.

[Nikia]

159. I don't know

They seem like hypocrites, don't they?
I never understood anyway how many men don't see women as equal people. One time I mentioned something to my boss "There are men who see women as equal and there are those that don't."
He said "That's too simplistic. Most men see a middle ground."
I just didn't know what to say. Sadly, my boss is one of the least sexist men employed in the organization.

[efhmc]

177. I do not agree that most men see a middle ground but it would be hard

to prove one way or another. BTW, what exactly does a middle ground mean?

[Nikia]

198. He seemed to be suggesting

That there was a middle ground for men between being sexist jerks and treating women as full equals. He was saying that most men do not believe that women's only purpose is sexual, childbearing, and serving their husbands but they may make gendered assumptions about women and treat women differntly in some situations. He doesn't see anything wrong with men being that way.

[DURHAM D]

166. I am surprised that no one commented that the runaway bride

story was sexist. If a guy had done the same thing it would not be reported.

Also, if a guy calls off a wedding he is labeled a stand up guy. If a woman calls off a wedding she is labeled a nut case.

[blondeatlast]

169. (Very minor) disagreement here. It WOULD have been reported,

but he would either be widely celebrated for his actions or made a pathetic laughing stock.

[efhmc]

179. The only time I knew this of the guy backing out was with one of my

friend's nephew and of course all of his family thought he was right and all of the bride's family thought he was a jerk. From I heard he made the right decision.

[sendero]

168. Feminism..

... who wouldn't be for it, as you've described it.

But feminism took on some baggage by the time the 70s were about over that it has not shed. Some confused "equal rights" with other things that are not and never will be true, such as "men and women are only different because of nurturing, not nature".

That's a load of crap, most people don't buy it for good reason, and it put an albatross around the neck of the whole idea.

Yea, that is really my opinion.

[Nikia]

174. Well

There are individuals, both male and female, who overlap quite a bit in regards to fitting gender stereotypes. There are also many activities in cultures that are considered men's or women's work in some cultures but the opposite in other cultures. In each of these cultures though, the particuliar activity is said to be naturual to a particuliar gender. Of course like other mammals, humans are suspectible to hormone induced behavior. Much of human behavior though is based on learning. Considering that socities have been highly gendered throughout history, I don't know if we could say how much is natuer and how much is nurture. If certain things are nature, why does society work so hard to teach children their proper roles?
We live in a country where we are allegedly not bound by the circumstances of our birth. For example, in some cultures, a child is pretty much forced to follow his or her family's trade. American values speak to the value of the individual. Why shouldn't a man or women be free to choose their path based on his or her individual preferences, not societal obligations?

[sendero]

178. Agreed...

I agree that maleness and femaleness are a continuum, not an absolute. I also agree that some of what men and women do is based on cultural training, not anything inherent.

But there are those have claimed that men and women are the same except for the obvious physical differences. I don't agree with this and neither does scientific study. And some of these same folks will embrace terms like "testosterone poisoning", which is sexist and stupid.

If believing that a woman should have the same opportunities and rights as a man makes me a feminist, call me a feminist. Even if a woman should choose a role or occupation that some would consider "masculine", it is not the role of society or government to restrict her. On the other hand, acting as though a woman is the same as a man without a penis is just as misguided.

[Abelman]

171. I agree

I agree that a progressive/liberal should be a feminist. But that is according to my personal definition of feminist. We can all lay claim to the dictionary definition and still frame the term ourselves.

This has been quite an interesting thread, what with the porn subthread and the reading suggested. I'm very interested.

I consider myself a feminist. To the best of my knowledge, I treat women as I treat men in a professional setting. Not as much in a social setting since I don't feel comfortable dating men. That's probably because I'm not gay, but I'm open to other reasons.

I don't know what I can say that will move along a discussion, so I'll just say what is on my mind. I find it disgusting that there is still a gap in salaries between men and women in this country. I find it disgusting that women don't get the same respect as men in professional settings. I hate that I still meet men who seem to think the pinnacle of their life is to find a good woman and set her at home and she can pop out the babies.

However, I also am upset when I meet women who don't think it's okay for a woman to be a housewife. My ex-girlfriend was strong, independent, hated being told what to do. She was very vibrant, very full of life and I won't get into why we aren't together, but she told me once that she really just wanted to be a housewife. She was incredibly intelligent and capable of doing anything she wanted but she just wanted to have some children and raise them with her husband, and take care of the house. There's nothing wrong with that; feminism is about choice.

I have big dreams, too. But there are times this pastoral image of working a regular job and coming home to a family and raising children with the woman I love seems far more appealing than working my butt off to be top dog. That's off-topic though.

I also hate how when children are raised, there are jobs the girls don't learn. How to change the oil in the cars and lawnmowers, how to use tools, how to fix things. My mother grew up on a farm and this was stuff she knows how to do better than my father. I am blessed in that respect; my parents have never acted as anything but equals. I am always shocked to meet girls and women who don't know how to do anything outside of the kitchen or laundry room. This is not my point, but I have met girls angry they don't know how to do anything outside of these areas because their fathers never taught them. But, gee, they just sit their and complain instead of learning it now.

That's something that irritates me, too.

I am open to women doing anything they wish to do, so long as no one is victimized. If a girl ever consulted me about abortion, I would advise her not to, such is my belief. But if she chose to end it, I would help her find the safest clinic possible. It is her body, not mine. If a woman has an opinion on a topic, I listen to her. If a woman is acting like a jerk, I let her know. I do the same with men.

Yet, I recognize that men and women are different. I believe in moderation and this can be seen in men and women. They are the same, but they are different. Men are physically stronger and therefore, I see them as responsible for their strength, to know when to not use it. Women are generally less physically strong and I expect them to know this and make sure they have tools necessary to counter that.

I think I've been rambling for long enough. I suppose we could go on and on. I just hope that everyone who claims to be a progressive/liberal is open to ways of life and ideas that do not discriminate needlessly and do not victimize other human beings.

[efhmc]

184. Great post, interesting, introspective and personal. Thank you for sharing

your thoughts and ideas.

[moggie]

189. They're allowing others to define the term

I'm thinking in particular of young women: when one of these says she's not a feminist, it usually turns out that her idea of feminism is a crude caricature of the real thing. This has always bugged me. Feminism is intensely personal, so why the hell let it be defined by people who clearly don't have your best interests at heart?:shrug: