I think that we at DU throw around the word 'Fascism' a bit too much

[Mass_Liberal]

Do we honestly think that your average Republican, and even your average republican congressman advocates a police state with no media, no individual rights, strong governmental controls on industry/wages/prices, and forcible suppression of all political opposition?

I just think that we at DU and many of us Liberals in general are a bit too quick to label conservative ideas and people fascist. It makes us look extreme, and ignorant, and just plain wrong, in my opinion.

*Puts on flame retardent suit*

[DemNoir]

1. Yea right

Only a fascist would make such an assertion!

[LittleClarkie]

6. You Communists always go too far

with your Stalinist rhetoric.

[gort]

151. Reminds me of a quote

I can't find who wrote this quote but it went something like this:

"If you all had behaved properly there wouldn't have been a need for any communists." (I think a British humorist wrote this, anyone recognize it?)

I like to say that to Republicans who take umbrage to being called fascists.

[thebigidea]

2. if you wrap it in a flag, they'll buy it with no questions

and its not like they want a state with no media, they want a state with only THEIR media.

[Mass_Liberal]

5. duh.....

ur?

[thebigidea]

8. correct me if i'm wrong...

... but I don't think they were ever in any way hurt by calling us communists for decades.

[Mass_Liberal]

9. ok

agreed that they are guilty of political spin. But surely some democrats are guilty of doing the same in the past. And I would wager that your average republican would flip out if they had an openly state-run media.

[thebigidea]

11. would they flip out if Republicans ran the state run media? I doubt it.

it'd be the ultimate in fair and balanced.

[Mass_Liberal]

47. yea

I think so. Even conservatives want to be able to pretend that there is a free and unbiased press. I believe that most republicans think that the press is currently unbiased.

[bpilgrim]

15. fox news, gannon, paid shills, talk radio, etc...

i don't see any reTHUGs 'flipp'n out' yet :shrug:

peace

[Mass_Liberal]

57. Fox news is run

by a corporation, which is run by... wotshisname.... Rupert Murdoch, I think. Anyway, he is a man with interests common to some people in the current administration. He is not the administration himself.

[bpilgrim]

63. they're in OPEN collusion with each other and don't forget the other shill

mentioned.

if you don't recognize the OPEN wall-to-wall PROPAGANDA being programmed and broadcasted daily you need to hang out round here more often you'll get a helluva education.

:hi:

peace

[classof56]

32. Well, then, your average republican should step up to the plate now,

while there's still time to put the brakes on what is being done in their party's name. Because if the day comes when we have an openly state-run media, it's way too late to do any flippin' out. I'm sure there are democrats who are guilty of just about everything, but the Rs are in control now and calling the shots. Let's hope your wager pays off, as it could if the message keeps getting out about what the not-so-average republicans are aiming for and average Rs start paying attention. Fascism may be too strong a word, but there's that saying about the shoe fitting...

Tired Old Cynic

[LittleClarkie]

3. Like crying wolf, we may be desensitizing folks to the word

When it really does come, maybe they won't listen.

Rather like calling the Pope a Nazi, it overshoots the real issues we have with these people. If you go too far in your rhetoric, you end up discrediting yourself.

*ya got one of those things for me?*

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. It's already happened....that's what we keep trying to tell people....

Lots of Germans missed the key signals in 1934 when Hitler was named Chancellor...it appears that lots of Americans missed the signals in December 2000.

[goodboy]

85. but not us, er..not all of us.

:hi:

[goodboy]

139. why haven't they been desensitized to "liberal" or "liberal bias" or

"liberal media"

[H2O Man]

4. People should know

the definition of the word before they use it. Most of the people who "throw it around" do not know what it means, and what it doesn't mean.

[Cha]

134. I looked it up before I started using

the word fascist to describe the bush evil crime family.

"Fascism..often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>"

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fascist&x=18&y=15

[H2O Man]

160. That's it.

It's not difficult to understand, and it is pretty easy to draw on the similarities between what we have today and that definition. People do not need to add to it, or try to change it.

I've had DUers tell me that I am wrong to say that we should stick by the actual meaning of the word. Words have meaning, and it is actually common for fascist governments to insist on changing the true meanings of words. Beware of this. Words have power, and the abuse of that power should be avoided.

[Cha]

168. Words have meaning and power

to me. And I believe in calling a fascist a fascist.

[H2O Man]

169. Good.

There are fascists in the United States today, without a doubt.

[Cha]

170. Hey, WaterMan!

:toast:

[H2O Man]

171. That looks

like Guinness! Get me started, and I'll sing a few tunes about those fascists, by gosh!

[radwriter0555]

7. YES, I believe ALL those things as the future of the gop nazi party

are coming to fruition.

Fascism is the perfect definition.

[Mass_Liberal]

13. I just have to ask

do you really think that would be acceptable to your average Republican? I don't think that they would let that pass ("that" being truly fascist policies)?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

21. about "average Republicans"

do you find acceptable what they find acceptable? Why should Democrats care if the average Republican doesnt find something acceptable?

News flash, they don't study issues - they are told what to think and they believe what they are told - then they tune out. They will never find the liberal platforms acceptable.

[goodboy]

23. where are the "average" repukes...(crickets)

[bpilgrim]

10. depends who your talking about. if it's the neoCONs it isn't used often

enough, IMHO.

peace

[Generic Other]

12. The American Heritage Dictionary defines "fascism" very clearly

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerant nationalism or racism."

Now what part of this definition does not fit?

[Mass_Liberal]

18. erm... all of it

he was elected, and has checks and balances on his authority and as a result cannot be called a dictator. He hasn't placed stringent socieconomic controls, quite the opposite, he supports a powerful and uncontrolled industry, and he doesn't suppress opposition through terror or censorship, and doesn't pursue a policy of racism.

[goodboy]

30. he was not elected. the checks and balances melted away

when the pukes got control of the house and senate. Discrimination of gay americans using the marriage act certainly does count as a socieconomic control considering that marriage offers financial benefits and protections that currently are not afforded to them. Calling the teacher's union a 'terrorist organization' was an attempt to suppress the opposition. as for racism? I'll bet you can count the african-american bush voters on one hand. (figuratively speaking)

[Mass_Liberal]

162. well in that case

you are taking issue with the party system as the destruction of checks and balances. Because you are saying that checks and balances are destroyed when one party holds both the presidency and congress. This has happened with Democrats before. It has happened with Republicans before. As far as I am concerned this is just one step down the road. One day not too long from now I'm sure we'll have a democratic president and congress.

Did he really say that the teacher's union was a terrorist organization? Wow, that is pathetic, I never even knew that one.

[goodboy]

166. no...I'm taking issue with the fraudulent elections. (nt)

[Mass_Liberal]

172. no

I was referring to what you said about checks and balances melting away.

[Kerrytravelers]

34. .

he was elected :rofl:

has checks and balances on his authority :rofl:

He hasn't placed stringent socieconomic controls :rofl:

and he doesn't suppress opposition through terror or censorship :rofl:

and doesn't pursue a policy of racism :rofl:





I'm just kidding. I happen to think he is far more close to the fascist line than you do. I also have refererd to my new pope as a nazi, even though I have also posted articles that, in fact, there is no proof the ratzinger family ever participated in any Nazi attrocities. I just do not like the new pope and am not pleased that he was active in moving many Catholic votes towards * and bringing cardinal law to the Vatican. Should we watch our words? Well, I can't disagree. But, I also think that sometimes we are just letting off steam and venting our anger. When someone posts a thread about how angry they are with Catholics, I don't take it personally. I realize they probably aren't anti-religion in total, just pissed at what is happening and how "Christians" are persecuting everyone right now under *. :)

[Just Me]

39. Whoah, dude,...surely you're not denying the attack on checks/balances.

Twisted.

The "industry" and big corporations are controlling laws through him and his neoCON cabal ---- AW SHIT ---THAT'S FACISM!!!

He and his cabal have just made legalese semantics up,...to bypass the law,...just like any dictatorship would do.

He DOES censor, censor, censor, censor,...every freakin' single day!!!

DAMN!!!!

[goodboy]

40. how about destroying our judiciary...that is how hitler got control of

parliament in 1933

[Mass_Liberal]

51. I don't think so

I think that he grants total freedom to big corporations. Which is *not* the action of a fascist government. In a fascist government, it would be the other way around. And I don't think you can say that he really fully engages in censorship. He doesn't shut down the offices of and murder the employees of communist/socialist/liberal presses. I think that the problem is one of exaggeration.

And anyway, there is a judiciary and a congress still are there not? There is still (and hopefully will remain) a right to filibuster. So I don't think that checks and balances have been destroyed. (I will agree that an end to the right to filibuster is moving towards facism).

[goodboy]

55. he shut down al Sadr's newspaper in Iraq and set the insurgency on fire,

and are you forgetting the Italian journalist he tried to kill?

[Just Me]

64. No. He creates laws that PROTECT big corporations. That's not FREE!

Meanwhile, he seeks to further burden common folk with stricter bankruptcy laws, a HUGE national debt, destroying the net for those who are oppressed/unfortunate, underfunding education, funnelling BIG PUBLIC BUCKS to private energy, private militia/security, private health care & pharmaceuticals, corporations that care NOTHING for the best interests of the American people!!!

I feel like I am addressing a total stranger to what this administration is all about.

Are you a total stranger?

Good grief!!!

[Kerrytravelers]

87. I don't think the rethugs ar going to line us up and shoot us into a ditch

like the Nazi party. So, no, I don't equally equate * with Hitler in the same manner their goals are achieved. But, there are other ways of achieving your goals that are more likely to fly under the radar of this nation rocked to sleep. In that way, I thik the rethugs are marching towards a "friendly fascism", much like their "compassionate conservatism" than most people realize.

Anyway, I'm just tossing these two cents in the air.

[goodboy]

90. you don't have to be a nazi to be a fascist. (nt)

[Kerrytravelers]

94. I totally agree with you here. In fact, I have been quite interested in

all your posts.

The problem is, how do we educate people to this fact when schools clearly don't? I'm a teacher. It would blow your mind to learn how little material we teach in regards to this topic.

[goodboy]

97. thank you, KT, I think the first step toward educating people

is by not running away from defining what these people really are. We can't be afraid to use the word fascist to describe fascism. It's not about being politically correct, or less extreme, it's about being honest. We have to educate ourselves extensively on the subject as well. Unfortunately for our teachers, the Bushies are trying to eliminate honesty from our children's schoolbooks. With the current campaign to force schools to teach ID instead of evolution (which falls under 2 of the 14 points of fascism -intertwining religion, and disdain for intellectuals-) your job is gonna be harder than it already is.

All I can say is be brave, be honest, and be true to your beliefs, and you'll be doing the country a great service.

goodboy.

[mitchtv]

105. obviously you are not Gay

Gay people are not so sure about that statement

[Kerrytravelers]

110. YOu are correct. I am not gay. I never meant to undermind your struggle.

Really, that wasn't my intention.

[mitchtv]

114. well there is an overwlming number

who would say"we didn't know anything about it", as we end up in faith based mandatory reducation camps in the middle of the Mohave, our wealth stolen. Were the germans repsonsible for the concentration camps? they all hated the Jews. The struggle if things get much worse here will not be for marriage , but to get across the border.

[Kerrytravelers]

125. I can't disagree with anything you just said.

Seriously, I never meant anything disparaging against gay people in my post. In fact, I wasn't thinking of one specific group when I wrote my posts for this thread. I was just talking in general. However, I completly agree with you that there is a war against GLBT people, led by * and his "christian" friends, with the fundy fruitcakes as their footsoldiers.

[Mass_Liberal]

103. sorry this is a matter of word choice

You are right. I think that Bush's ideal world would be one in which Companies could operate with no government influence whatsoever, and no restraints as to fair labor practices and so on. That's what I meant by 'free' I didn't mean it in a positive sense. A better word for me to use would have been 'unfettered' or 'unrestrained'

[goodboy]

107. which would be yet ANOTHER of the 14 pts. of fascism, number 9

9.) Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

[bpilgrim]

82. WRONG

a fascist gov is in open collusion with big bizz

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power."

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"Checking the genealogy of fascism, the begats begin with the corporation and corporatism. This, in fact, was Mussolini's definition of Fascism -- the corporate State."

source...
http://www.thecorporation.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1882&

peace

[goodboy]

84. right! FYI,

Repukes and the Bush* administration are fascists, as defined by the 14 points of fascism which are:
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

[cosmicdot]

102. they did shut down Somalia's Internet and a telecom business ...

... or does it have to be within our borders to count?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1672220.stm

wonder if anyone has had their website shut down? or have been intimidated by the SS ... or been restricted to First Amendment Zones ...

they're chipping away at Congress via Diebolds (picked up enough Senate seats to be on their current emboldened path), they're good with character assassination, and, of course, collusion with the corporate media ... FAUX is always willing to be the State Press ... and, so much more!

they're working on the judiciary ...

oh, let's all wait until they take away the filibuster ... and, hope it's not too damn late ...


I would say the article in today's NYTimes re PBS, Rove, the White House, and the Office of Global Communications is an example of fascism in practice.

Republican PBS Chairman, Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, "without knowledge of his board" and "on the recommendation of administration officials" ... "hired the Director of the Office of Global Communications as a senior staff member" ... " to keep track of
the guests' political leanings on 'Now with Bill Moyers' " ... looking for liberal bias ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/arts/television/02public.html?hp&ex=1115006400&en=449e1c9c1177152f&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=login


they're fascists!

[goodboy]

free speech zones anyone? The white-house produced fake news

stories (propaganda goebbels would be proud of) to sell the country on Medicare and social security nightmares/

[bloom]

129. Plus they were also shooting journalists

in Iraq - putting AlJazeera out of business - making it near impossible for any "unembedded" journalists...

[goodboy]

130. and the Italian journalist they tried to kill...and possibly even

HST.

[Generic Other]

68. If you say it fast enough, it sounds just like democracy as we know it

centralization of authority = Homeland Security, Patriot Act, GOP
control of all three branches of the government, plus the military

stringent socioeconomic controls = Corporate self-regulation, tax cuts for the wealthy, reduction of social security benefits for poor and middleclass, bankruptcy bill, privatization schemes, secret energy deals

suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship = 9/11 and aftermath, First Amendment Zones, control of media propaganda,

a policy of belligerant nationalism or racism = Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, etc.

[Just Me]

14. The Neocons and their circle are fascists. Those who are betrayed,...

,...by their deception and manipulation are victims,...and as long as they allow themselves to be deceived and manipulated even in face of PROOF of deception/manipulation they are choosing to be victimized and/or silent in the face of evil and/or complicit.

[NEOBuckeye]

16. CORPORATISM is the term we must use in it's place

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
-- Benito Mussolini

[SlavesandBulldozers]

25. see Benito didn't even like being called a fascist

its so typical of a fascist to try to rename it.

[goodboy]

61. I agree with you, but I don't think it "pops" quite like "fascist"

[Kerrytravelers]

145. ""pops" quite like "fascist""

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[PowerToThePeople]

17. I will throw it around right now.

We are a * hair away from a total fascist state.

[Disturbed]

28. Rove's goal is a one party Amerika.

Corporatism is what I would deem as the condition that this nation is approaching. The nation need not be a police state and a totally controlled media in order for it to be a Corporatist nation. In my view Amerika is a Plutocracy. It has not reached the dictionary definition of a Fascist state. It sure seems that the NeoCon agenda is to turn Amerika into a Corporatist nation backed by a one party system, namely the Republican Party with an appeasment to the RW so called Christians and their agenda.

[DemNoir]

19. Isn't this always the way...

Another thread hijacked by fascists!

[tabasco]

20. Oh sure, all those millions of reasonable republicans ...

that support an unjustified war and hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians ... why they would never go for something like fascism !

[Mass_Liberal]

29. my humble opinion....

I believe in the basic good of human nature. I do ,however, believe that people can be manipulated. I think that neither the republicans nor the democrats who supported the war were thinking of the collateral damage that ensued. That is because they were being dazzled with reports of WMD's and their attention was almost focused on the true fact that Saddam Hussein was a dictator who slaughtered innocent people. They were, in my opinion, mislead.

Anyway the Iraq war has nothing to do with Fascism. Fascism is a kind of domestic government. It doesn't really have anything to do with foreign policy, intrinsically.

[tabasco]

52. There are millions of easily manipulated people in this country.

That has EVERYTHING to do with fascism.

edit typo

[bloom]

132. maybe you would like to read this:

http://www.nologo.org/ .... "Baghdad Year Zero"

Look for box with:

"You can download "Baghdad Year Zero" here or read it on-line here."


Corporations and the military intertwined - privatizing the world, basically.

They also do it with disasters - see: "The Rise of Disaster Capitalism". Same page.

[goodboy]

22. I don't think we use the word "fascist" enough! And yes, I do think

Repukes and the Bush* administration are fascists, as defined by the 14 points of fascism which are:
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

And, I started a thread about this very topic here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3482768

[DemNoir]

27. Sir!

Your post positively reeks of fascism!

[goodboy]

31. Now I must suppress you! The opposition! You're a communist!

You're either with us or against us!

[Trajan]

24. A bunch of ignorant republicans ...

havent a clue what has beset them ... THEY still think that the GOP supports public education and social security ...

I am old enough to KNOW they DO NOT ! ....

They will kill both as soon as they can get away with it ....

Public health care is already gone ....

FUCK the FASCIST GOP ... and their ignorant supporters ....

[Somawas]

26. Read the articles

on the indicators of a fascist/protofascist state. We have them all thanks to the GOP. Not quite as much as Germany in 1942. But we have them.

[goodboy]

33. Who said this?

Strength lies not in defence but in attack.

[Toby109]

35. The problem is when you say Fascist

people think Nazi. And when people think Nazi, they think of the Holocaust, genocide, WWII, epic stuff. They make no comparison to present day, and rightly so. Our job, as I see it, is to recognize and point out the trends towards full fascism in this country. We are the Democratic Underground.

[goodboy]

36. you don't have to be a nazi to be a fascist...we should make that

point as well.

[Selteri]

37. They call us Godless Commies

Anti-capitolistic Socialist-Communist Scum and everything else, who the hell cares that they don't like being called fascists when they are

ACTING LIKE FASCISTS!

When you call something what it is, at least people know it.

[AngryAmish]

38. Bush is Hitler

That is all.

[lastknowngood]

41. That's a pretty fascists statement

<sarcasm off>

[seabeyond]

42. i disagree, and no it isnt about flaming

that seems to make the opposite opinion as irrelevant. i think there are exactly the signs, that yes, this is what the republican party wants. and there are facts that support this

check out what is happening to pbs

[goodboy]

75. 6.) Controlled Mass Media (another one of the 14 pts. of fascism)

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[creeksneakers2]

44. I think of Fascism as mass psychological event

Those who want power use powerful and dangerous persuasion techniques to get control. These techniques succeed by reaching the worst values and emotions of public. This is already happening.

We've seen RW propaganda getting larger audiences than the mainstream press. We've seen approximately 30% of America become so brainwashed that they believe in wild conspiracies and cannot be reasoned with. The right does not see the left as a group of people who disagree. They see the left as a demon force bent on destroying law abiding religious folks. The religious right has so much anger now that the Republican party can no longer control them. The person who can best confirm their irrationality and promise the boldest action will be their next leader. The bold action will be aimed at destroying anything that stands in the way.

As events get out of control, the Fascist government fails to produce promised results. Blame is shifted toward the opposition. The end of it all is horrible.

Its important to do as much as possible to get the public to see what is going on. I've heard it said that evil triumphs because good men do nothing. I don't believe that. I believe evil triumphs because good people don't believe what they are seeing. That's where we are now.

I use the word when I think I'll have time to explain why what we are experiencing is the early stages of Fascism.

[deutsey]

45. Yes, I do believe in many instances Republicans do favor fascism

I have spoken to many Republicans who believe repression is acceptable and even necessary because "everything changed on 9/11." I had one tell me just a month ago or so that he believed we need an even tighter clampdown on civil liberties than has already happened.

Even before 9/11, I knew plenty of conservatives who thought Hitler did a good job, "he just went too far."

A majority of people in this country swallowed the Bush PR campaign that led to invading Iraq; they'll believe anything if pitched by the right marketing firm.

I'm not saying ALL Republicans are fascists, but many that I've encountered are open to American-style fascism. No one can convince me otherwise; I've heard it direct from the horse's mouth too many times.

[Mass_Liberal]

54. wow

"Even before 9/11, I knew plenty of conservatives who thought Hitler did a good job, "he just went too far.""

I hope you gave them a good asskicking. I sure as shit would. I haven't met the kind of republicans you are describing, perhaps my view is somewhat skewed. I hope that your average republican wouldn't agree w/ that statement.

[bpilgrim]

66. MANY reTHUGlicans agree with the FASCIST PNAC agenda and the ILLEGAL

PREVENTIVE war being waged against the people of Iraq which is exactly what the fascist did during WWII.

ever heard of GEACPS? (Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere)
same thing we are doing in the ME.

peace

[applegrove]

46. I think using patriotism to get people to vote for elite things - against

ones own best interest will always bring up the issue of fascism. So will a tightly disciplined group of congressmen & congresswomen.

It is what it is.

Now that the GOP are beginning to act and think a little more like human politicians.. the fascism talk has subsided.

If you don't want to be called a fascist. Stop acting like a fascist.

[goodboy]

48. it's nationalism...not patriotism. (nt)

[applegrove]

60. It is all tribalism. It is an old trick. In more organized societies it is

called fascism.

[goodboy]

62. rampant cronyism and corruption right? another of the 14 pts. of fascism

[applegrove]

69. They are pretty good at following the letter of the law (even if they

ignore the intent). The cronyism will result in untold riches from untold job opportunities for family and kin. Nothing we can get them on.

They'll just have to wait until the judges or the academics start to hit back. Oh and the voters too.

[goodboy]

79. that's why they're trying to kill our judiciary, and as for the academics,

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Another one of the 14 pts. of fascism.

[applegrove]

143. They've had to tame the beast they created. It was biting them back.

Look at Laura's appeal with her saucy jokes. A slap to the religious right.

[goodboy]

144. That's twice in less than a week! He slapped the right at his "press

conference" also

[Raksha]

49. I disagree....

I don't think we call them fascists enough!

[goodboy]

50. go Raksha! (nt)

[mitchtv]

112. I agree Raksha

not nearly enough

[whistle]

53. Here is my take on this.....

..."I honestly think that your average Republican, and even your average republican congressman advocates a police state with no media, no individual rights, strong governmental controls on industry/wages/prices, and forcible suppression of all political opposition.....and add to that a theocracy based on fundamentalist Christianity and white dominated rule."

[goodboy]

56. Kick for your post, Whistle! Right on.

[Mass_Liberal]

70. this is kind of a fallacy

Fascism entails the suppression of religion, not the support of it.

[goodboy]

72. bullshit! Fascist governments tend to use the most common religion in

in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

[Robeson]

123. Wrong....

...you need to see some pictures of Catholic priests and Protestant clergy men blessing Nazi flags before battle, before making that statement. And yes, those pictures are real, and it happened.

[Robeson]

124. Great post. In the region I live in , you've described most...

...Republicans I know.

[slor]

58. "average Republican" is not the way to...

describe those calling the shots. Tax-cuts for the wealthiest americans, during a time of war, while running huge deficits and attempting to destroy Social Security. Trumping up evidence to go to war, and complicity in 9/11. My friend, what exactly should we call them?

[goodboy]

59. fascists. (nt)

[goodboy]

65. I'd appreciate it if you would address some of my points in this thread.

thx in advance.


goodboy

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. No, but that's exactly what the neocons want

and they will use high-sounding phrases such as "love of God and country" to sell the masses on their programs.

That is precisely what Leo Strauss advised them to do.

Fascism doesn't have to be Nazism. Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, and countless Latin American governments have been fascist.

[Mass_Liberal]

71. ok

I think that we are all discussing three different things, and its confusing our argument:

1) The current state of the nation. Fascistic or not?

2) The desires/ideals of the average republican. And yes, quite a few of them exist, they aren't all invented by diebold. Do they support the direction of the republican party? Where do they want it to go? Are they being manipulated?

3) What do arch-conservative masterminds that we believe are very powerful behind-the-scenes players in Republican politics want? Where are they taking the part? Fascist or no?

[goodboy]

74. addressing each of your points:

1) The current state of the nation. Fascistic or not? (YES)
2) The desires/ideals of the average republican. And yes, quite a few of them exist, they aren't all invented by diebold. Do they support the direction of the republican party? Where do they want it to go? Are they being manipulated? (You still haven't told me who the 'average' repukes are. And Yes they support the direction of the party, and largely, they are NOT being manipulated)

3) What do arch-conservative masterminds that we believe are very powerful behind-the-scenes players in Republican politics want? Where are they taking the part? Fascist or no?

(The arch-conservative 'masterminds' want complete and total control over every aspect of government, they want control over the citizenry, control of the money, control of the military, control of the courts...And everything they've done to date is, by definition, fascist.)

[Mass_Liberal]

95. they weren't points

I was merely presenting the problem that in this thread, people are arguing on three different levels, when I was only arguing the first two.

[goodboy]

98. ok, fine, moving on. Would you be so kind as to respond to some of

my posts?

[Nite Owl]

73. The average republican

or even a congressman may not outright advocate facism but not separating from a party that clearly is going in that direction makes them just as culpable as the leadership. There are plenty of signs that we are in or very close to a fascist state. Our friend Paul Krugman even said this on cspan before the election. Actually what he said was that people who lived through this told him that they saw it happening here. They lived through it and it is something that doesn't get a bell rung, no one campaigns for this it slowly creeps in. We can't use the term enough, we must educate people.

[Finder]

173. Disagree

Better for them to stay in and stop the fascism. I think many moderate republicans see(as well as some leaders/politicians) and they are actively trying to bring things into balance. There is no "average republican" these days. There are many extremists who have joined the ranks in the last two decades.

As someone noted above, the definitions of words have been changing from what they really mean. Conservative, democratic, fascist, liberal etc...all have been defined by the nuts in power and in the media. Gerneralizations just don't cut it. Corporatism, religion and media propoganda are all tools of fascism.

[Cleita]

76. And then what should we call them, patriots?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. I judge my fascists the same way.

What Republicans think should be very unimportant to you because they have sold out our country to the fascist elements of their party and the sooner they notice the better.

[goodboy]

77. yes...and who are these "average" repukes. (nt)

[Kerrytravelers]

93. Don't insult the poor ducks.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. I judge my fascists the same way."


I judge my fascists the same way. :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl:
:spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl: :spray: :rofl:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. I don't think we throw it around enough....

...and if you think "it makes us look extreme, and ignorant, and just plain wrong", that's your opinion, and one that exists in a shrinking minority.

You better start paying attention to what's really happening around you instead of what you'd like to believe is taking place.

[leftofthedial]

81. You fascist-enabling commie

just being a wiseass BTW. You're probably right.

[goodboy]

83. come on, leftofthedial...which of these things DO NOT apply to the

bushies?

Repukes and the Bush* administration are fascists, as defined by the 14 points of fascism which are:
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections

[leftofthedial]

91. whoa! goodboy

the hard-core neotheocons are frigging fascists without question IMHO.

you're preaching to the choir.

I think, though, that on DU we sometimes yell "fascist" when "asshole" would be more accurate.

[goodboy]

92. whew! ok cool...

I'm just a little frustrated by this thread as you can tell.

[Octafish]

96. Gee. Prescott Bush helped arm the NAZIs.

Where do you think the NAZI friends of the Dulles brothers came from? And it's not just a puke thing. Averell Harriman was a DEM war profiteer along with them.

http://www.john-loftus.com/Thyssen.asp#fortune

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/011004Hasty/011004hasty.html

His son, George Herbert Walker Bush acted like a NAZI as president.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-death.htm

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/war/a102896b.html

His grandson acts like a NAZI as "president."

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-239/0504290499174521.htm

http://www.bidstrup.com/america.htm


COMMENT

How to legitimise a war in 10 days

May 2, 2005

Britain's attorney-general expressed reservations about war on March 7 2003, but on March 17 advised that it would be legal, writes Paul Vallely, Colin Brown, Anne Penketh and Kim Se

The document bore a single word heading. Above the lion and the unicorn crest of the British crown, it said simply: "Secret".

It was not what the prime minister wanted to read. War on Iraq was imminent. The United States and Britain had set a deadline 10 days thence - March 17 - by which the Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein must comply on six key demands. If he did not, then America would let slip the dogs of war, with Britain committed to fight at its side.

But the 13-page paper in his hand gave Tony Blair six reasons why the war might be adjudged to be illegal. Worst of all, the briefing was signed attorney-general Peter Goldsmith, the government's own chief legal officer. It was March 7. Lord Goldsmith had just 10 days to change his mind.

CONTINUED...

http://www.pretorianews.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=667&fArticleId=2504531

Bonus NAZI: George Herbert Walker Bush was in Dallas the day JFK was killed. The FBI said so because they talked with him.



That's some pretty NAZI shit. All true.

Like some good DUer said: "We have become a fascist empire due to these captains of industry, that is the BFEE imo."

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodboy]

146. Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there...

If, as you say, "Republicans, Conservatives, and in general many other profiteers have taken the world of fascist ideals and embraced it. In the name of order, they say, it is neccesary."

If they embrace fascist ideals, they're fucking fascists.

and: "I have no doubt that there are far too many, and also a number of democrats who believe in FASCISM.
1. Name one democrat who believes in fascism as seen in his/her actions or words.

and: "But let us remember that, NO group or entity is entirely fascist or evil."
2. All the Pukes are fascists. They all have "group-think" If they all support the same agenda, they're all culpable. There's none of this "I was just following orders" bullshit here. Call them what they are.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodboy]

149. well,

Zell Miller is NO DEMOCRAT. He's a traitor to the Democratic party.

I said it before, if you embrace fascist ideals, you're a fascist.

Let's take politics out of it for a second. Fascism is as much an ideology as it is a form of government, and No democrats share the fascist ideology.

You said, "I also know that, it is untrue to label the entire group for the actions of a collective.

I think what you meant to say is you can't label the entire group for the actions of a few. Well, yes you most certainly can. If you subscribe to the ideology and participate in that form of government then you are what you are.

you also said, "I know that they are out there for a fact." Good. The first step towards fixing the problem is accepting it.

You also said, "To hate the entire group body of people, I don't believe solves the problem. "

I don't hate people, I hate fascists.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodboy]

152. ok, cool. (nt)

[mmonk]

86. OK, "fascist cult" then

[Beam Me Up]

88. Yeah, Mass_Liberal, I'd like to see you address goodboy's points as well

Apparently you are a "liberal" who still believes that the system works. Many of us, myself included, have come to quite a different conclusion. The system PRETENDS to work but does it really?

You indicated that Bush was "elected"--I don't believe that; neither the first time and most assuredly not the second. Something has gone terribly wrong in our country when we can no longer guarantee a fair and VERIFIABLE election.

But there is much more. The man "W" is without a doubt a very inarticulate and stupid person. Yet, strangely, he occupies the "highest office" of the "only remaining superpower" on planet Earth. One has to wonder WHO wants this man in that position and FOR WHAT END?

You see, so far as I'm concerned, the fascists that we are referring to are not the Republicans or the Conservatives so much as an ELITE who have the wealth and power to use the National Security State infrastructure to manipulate economic, political and military force.

I, for one, have been saying ever since the selection of 2000 that we are outside the realm of "politics as usual." The events of 9/11 sealed that for good. On that day over 3,000 people, the majority American citizens, were willfully and intentionally sacrificed to achieve a long range national security state agenda.

You may not call that "fascist" but I do. And I do so only because I KNOW OF NO WORD which accurately characterizes the depths of depraved insanity that set in motion, carried out and have continued to cover up that dark, evil and oily deed.

But that was only 'just the beginning'; for from that was set in motion a "war" that is completely illegal, immoral and unconscionable.

You see, my dear Mass_Liberal, we have been and are continuing to be DECEIVED. Oh yes, sure enough, everyone is continuing on as if nothing much has changed, as if everything is more or less as it was--BUT IT IS A LIE. So long as we continue to buy into ANY ASPECT of their media controlled reality bubble, we are LIVING A LIE:

...knowledge brings responsibility. If we acknowledge that an inner circle of ruling elites controls the world's most powerful military and intelligence system; controls the international banking system; controls the most effective and far-reaching propaganda network in history; controls all three branches of government in the world's only superpower; and controls the technology that counts the people's votes, we might be then forced to conclude that we don't live in a particularly democratic system. And then voting and making contributions and trying to stay informed wouldn't be enough. Because then the duty of citizenship would go beyond serving as a loyal opposition, to serving as a "loyal resistance"—like the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, except that in this case the resistance to fascism would be on the side of the national ideals, rather than the government; and a violent insurgency would not only play into the empire's hands, it would be doomed from the start.

Forming a nonviolent resistance movement, on the other hand, might mean forsaking some middle class comfort, and it would doubtless require a lot of work. It would mean educating ourselves and others about the nature of the truly apocalyptic beast we face. It would mean organizing at the most basic neighborhood level, face to face. (We cannot put our trust in the empire's technology.) It would mean reaching across turf lines and transcending single-issue politics, forming coalitions and sharing data and names and strategies, and applying energy at every level of government, local to global. It would also probably mean civil disobedience, at a time when the Bush regime is starting to classify that action as "terrorism." In the end, it may mean organizing a progressive confederacy to govern ourselves, just as our revolutionary founders formed the Continental Congress. It would mean being wise as serpents, and gentle as doves.

It would be a lot of work. It would also require critical mass. A paradigm shift.

Paranoid Shift

And we'd better wake up damn fast.

[goodboy]

89. thank you. (nt)

[Mass_Liberal]

99. Now it starts

I'm not a real liberal because I'm not as hyperbolic as you are...

the simple point that I am making is that it is gross exaggeration to call the current state of America Fascist. It is also wrong to say that your ordinary republican would support a Fascist state, at least in my opinion.

"You see, so far as I'm concerned, the fascists that we are referring to are not the Republicans or the Conservatives so much as an ELITE who have the wealth and power to use the National Security State infrastructure to manipulate economic, political and military force. "

That's exactly what I mean. I wasn't arguing that there aren't powerful people behind the scenes of republican politics who have some goals that are disturbingly Fascistic. You bypass completely the arguement I am trying to make. And then of course, you label me not a real liberal. To use some hyperbole of my own, this is McCarthyist.

[goodboy]

101. but you have yet to defend your position in a convincing way...

it's not hyperbole if its true.


let's start here: Which of these things does not apply to the bush admin, and please explain why.

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14.) Fraudulent Elections

[Mass_Liberal]

117. ok

like I said for about THE 80th FRIGGIN TIME! I AM TALKING ABOUT REPUBLICANS IN GENERAL!!!!! NOT JUST BUSH/ROVE/POWERFUL BEHIND THE SCENES CORPORATIONS.

As for whether we live in a Facist state now, here goes.

1) that is a state of mind that pervades America right now, on both sides of the aisle. Believe me this is something that disgusts me thoroughly, and disturbs me as well. However I hesitate to say that Americans are 99% Facist, even though 99% of them would say that they are 'strongly patriotic, which is in my opinion just a veil for nationalism.

2) I will admit Guantanamo Bay left me pretty shellshocked. I believed that the army would do nasty shit to prisoners to get information, but the photos of naked pyramids etc. were so uneccessary, as well as cruel and horrific. I was surprised. But, torture is not a new invention. It is a disgusting practice that occurs in all forms of government, and is not intrisically Fascist. (this is nitpicking and not particularly important. Guantanamo Bay was one of the most outraging things that I have encountered in my (admittedly quite short) lifetime)

4) the military isn't supreme currently, it is right now quite under the thumb of the government. There haven't been any coups in American history either. And since conservative are in control of the government right now, and arch-conservatives are in control of the executive branch, the far far right is adequately representated enough not to need a coup.

5) Male Chauvanism is much more a cultural and religious thing than a govermental one. It certainly bears no direct relationship to Fascism. Sexism was weaker in Nazi Germany than in various Muslim Theocracies around the world, and on a par with those in other democracies in Europe.

6) I don't think that the media is controlled by the government right now. I think that some of it is controlled by people with many of the same goals as arch-conservatives (to the benifit of Big Business, and unfettered Capitalism)

8) Like I said before, the intertwining of religion and government is not a mark of Fascism. Quite the opposite. In Fascist states, religion is undermined. Theoretically, it shouldn't even exist, as it divides loyalties of people within the state to the church instead of the gov.

11) In Nazi Germany, artists were highly respected. Hitler himself had been an artist. Wagner was a national hero, etc.

12) Are you talking about suspension of rights like Habeas Corpus etc.? If yes, then I agree with you, suspension of such individual rights are indeed steps towards Fascism. But if you are talking about the death penalty, then I would say that many people (not including me) support the death penalty for heinous crimes, and I don't consider them to be Fascist.


14) On this one, I have to admit that my history is a little shaky. In Fascist Italy and Germany, did Mussolini and Hitler even bother with phony elections? I dunno.

15) as for the fraudelence of the recent elections, I really don't know how legitimate they were. I do know however, that millions of Americans actually did vote their hearts, and a significant number of those were republicans. As I have said my argument is addressing republicans and not neo-cons.

[goodboy]

128. thanks for responding, but you failed again to make your case.

1. "However I hesitate to say that Americans are 99% Facist, even though 99% of them would say that they are 'strongly patriotic, which is in my opinion just a veil for nationalism."
There's a huge difference between patriotism and nationalism. What you call rank-and-file pukes are the same ones telling us to go live somewhere else if we don't like it here. Also calling us traitors. (which takes us to point 3 Identifying enemies or scapegoats as a unifying cause)

2. "But, torture is not a new invention. It is a disgusting practice that occurs in all forms of government, and is not intrisically Fascist"
Disdain for human rights is intrinsically Fascist, and morally wrong, and against the law.

3. skip three I guess

4. "the military isn't supreme currently"
<>

5. "Male Chauvanism is much more a cultural and religious thing than a govermental one. It certainly bears no direct relationship to Fascism. Sexism was weaker in Nazi Germany than in various Muslim Theocracies around the world, and on a par with those in other democracies in Europe."
It's not just male chauvanism my friend. The gay marriage bill, destroying a woman's right to choose, W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs. Hager believes that headaches, PMS and eating disorders can be cured by reading Scripture. (Which brings us back to point 8 Religion and government intertwined)

6. "I don't think that the media is controlled by the government right now. I think that some of it is controlled by people with many of the same goals as arch-conservatives"
Point number 13 is Rampant Cronyism and Corruption. Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

7. skip seven

8. "Like I said before, the intertwining of religion and government is not a mark of Fascism."
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. (which reverts once again to point 3. Non-religious people didn't help Bush steal this last election.)

9. skip nine

10. skip ten

11. "In Nazi Germany, artists were highly respected. Hitler himself had been an artist. Wagner was a national hero, etc."
You don't have to be a NAZI to be a FASCIST. But it isn't just the arts that are under attack. There is a current campaign to demonize "liberal colleges and professors" Cuts in education funding are also a sign of fascism.

12. "Are you talking about suspension of rights like Habeas Corpus etc.? If yes, then I agree with you, suspension of such individual rights are indeed steps towards Fascism. But if you are talking about the death penalty, then I would say that many people (not including me) support the death penalty for heinous crimes, and I don't consider them to be Fascist."
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Thousands wrongly convicted each year: Thousands of suspects unable to afford lawyers are wrongly convicted each year because they are pressured to accept guilty pleas or have incompetent attorneys, the American Bar Association says in a report.

13. skip thirteen

14. "as for the fraudelence of the recent elections, I really don't know how legitimate they were. I do know however, that millions of Americans actually did vote their hearts, and a significant number of those were republicans. As I have said my argument is addressing republicans and not neo-cons."
Repukes were unified against an enemy and a scapegoat using propaganda, and people were intimidated by law enforcement, cronyism (#3) by Mr. Wally O'Dell and our good friends at ES&S made sure that if the pukes weren't unified enough, the voting machines would pick up the slack. It doesn't matter if you vote you conscience if the machine is rigged. And consolidation of power through elections is a part of fascism, if the machines are rigged or not.

I'm still not convinced Mass_Liberal. You haven't made your case convincingly based on any evidence.

[goodboy]

133. waiting...

[goodboy]

136. still waiting....

[goodboy]

137. and I'm still waiting...

[goodboy]

141. I have to get to bed soon Mass_Liberal..

[Art_from_Ark]

163. The Nazis only respected "state approved" artists

Perhaps you should read about Bertolt Brecht (of "Three Penny Opera" fame) and find out what the Nazis thought of non-approved authors. Or read about the book burnings of May 10, 1933:

"In 1933, Nazi Minister for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda Joseph Goebbels began the synchronization of culture, by which the arts were brought in line with Nazi goals. The government purged cultural organizations of Jews and others alleged to be politically or artistically suspect...."

"The works of leading German writers such as Bertolt Brecht, Lion Feuchtwanger, and Alfred Kerr were consigned to flames in a book burning ceremony in Berlin. The promotion of "Aryan" culture and the suppression of other forms of artistic production was yet another Nazi effort to "purify" Germany. Other writers included on the blacklists were American authors Ernest Hemingway and Helen Keller."

http://www1.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005852

[Finder]

174. Republicans know the US is becoming fascist.

Whitman, Specter, and several other longtime republicans are exposing it while still trying to retain power and save face. Many repubs I know voted democrat in 2002, 2004 and will in 2006 and 2008. Unfortunately, too many democrats are voting republican due to the propoganda machine.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

108. I think it IS hyperbolic to call the Bushies "Nazis," because

Nazism was a specific historical phenomenon, a specific variety of fascism.

But not all fascists are Nazis. Franco's Spain was definitely fascist, but it was not Nazi.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beam Me Up]

120. Uhh Uhn -- I didn't say you weren't a liberal. I said,

Apparently you are a "liberal" who believes the system still works.

Do you or do you not believe the system still works?

[katinmn]

100. No, the neocons are fascists all right. Why pussyfoot

around it?

[Mass_Liberal]

104. once again

not my argument. I wasn't talking about neocons. I was talking about rank-and-file republicans. (and they do exist, its not all just a conspiracy invented by electronic voting machines)

[goodboy]

109. you don't mean "rank and file" you mean goose-stepping. you still

have not named any of these elusive repukes.

[Mass_Liberal]

118. I was talking about

the several million of them that voted in the last election. I wouldn't call them elusive. No matter how fraudelent you think the elections were, you have to admit that while they may not be a majority, there certainly are a signficant number of them.

[goodboy]

131. I know who you were talking about, and except for an infinitesimally

small amount, they're all fascists. They were unified against an enemy (liberals) using propaganda and the corporate-controlled media.

[katinmn]

119. The neocons are the ones in power, and we are in a

situation where the fascists are in control of our government, no?

Rank-and-file Republicans put them there.

[Zorra]

106. Republicans are fascists, whether they understand that they are or not.

"A rose by any other name is still a rose".

Republicans are definitely fascists if this definition by FDR is accurate

" The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any controlling private power. " FDR

Also, republicans can be categorized as fascists under this definition:

fascism - a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Merriam-Webster Dictionary

[goodboy]

113. and here:

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4.) Supremacy of the Military
5.) Rampant Sexism
6.) Controlled Mass Media
7.) Obsession with National Security
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined
9.) Corporate Power is Protected
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14.) Fraudulent Elections


http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[lonestarnot]

111. Good you have on your suit...nope you're just in denial...

[bobthedrummer]

115. I don't think it's overused when describing The War President and

his administration and what has happened to our country since they were installed 12-12-2000.

[Mr_Spock]

116. fasiscts? Where are da fascists? We don't need no stinkin' fascists!

Every where I go I see fascists - GET THEM OUT OF MY HEAD

PLEASE!

[ailsagirl]

121. Well, check this link out then you tell me...

http://www.mvp-seattle.org/pages/pageFascism.htm

If we're not there yet, we're fast approaching. Remember-- these creeps have another four years in which to do their dirty work.

[Robeson]

122. No. It is what it is. Mussolini defined it. He's the father of....

...fascism. He invented the definition. If you have a problem with what HE said, argue with him. Based on the definition of the guy who invented the system, then yes, corporatism is fascism. Who am I to argue with the guy who invented the idea, and terminology?

[Lindacooks]

126. I don't think we say it enough.

One of the reasons it's alive and well in chimpy et al today is because this country hasn't experienced it first-hand.

Europe has, and that is why they hate chimpy so much. They KNOW what facism looks like, and it's the BFEE.

[bloom]

127. If we were wrong

it would make us look wrong. But I don't think we are wrong - so we don't.

"Do we honestly think that your average Republican, and even your average republican congressman advocates a police state with no media, no individual rights, strong governmental controls on industry/wages/prices, and forcible suppression of all political opposition?"

I think the average Republican has been fooled by state media (state controlled media - they wouldn't get away with all their crap otherwise). I have heard several say to me personally that they think lost liberties are called for under the circumstances. :eyes: I think they aren't paying attention to the gov't allowing industry to pollute (thwarting the Clean Air Act & delisting mercury as a hazard, for instance) & that many industries are being given immunity from prosecution/and civil liability. I have also heard about wage fixing/controlling - plus there is the outsourcing/offshoring. They are all too happy to have one party rule because they think that is the only way to subdue those liberals - make abortion illegal again and insure that gays cannot marry. And of course there is the voting problem - we don't even expect fair vote counts anymore.

It's like saying that the USA is not interested in empire. The gov't doesn't have to "own" everything to control as much of the world as they do - bases everywhere - corporations everywhere... US fascism does not have to look exactly like someone elses.

[rndmprsn]

135. no offense...i dont waste my time defending these people. NT

[Mass_Liberal]

161. hahaha

I know, its kind of pathetic. I start out trying to suggest that we speak more precisely, and I end up defending Bush&Co. Anyway, I was just stating that in my opinion calling America today Fascist, is a gross exaggeration, as anyone who has ever lived in a Fascist state could attest.

[renaissanceguy]

138. No, I don't think we use it ENOUGH!

People who voted for Bush knew what they were getting. There's no excuse.



http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21326737

[agincourt]

140. Ok I'm wrong wrong wrong

Fascists are Futurists and wear snappy uniforms.

[UdoKier]

153. What you describe is a very rigid definition.

Under Mussolini's definition of fascism "corporatism", the US would sertainly qualify, and not just the GOP.

The corporate, military-industrial complex-owned dems and the corporate media. It's fascism with a friendlier face and much, much more insidiously sophisticated propaganda.

Do I expect mainstream voters and republican-voting scum to get it? No, and I don't use that kind of rhetoric much around clueless people. But I think I should be able to use it where the assumption is that posters are informed, and progressive.


BTW, when corporations are in complete control of the government, and those mega-corporations have a lock on wages and prices, as is the case in the US, how is that not fascist?

When we have seen JFK, MLK, RFK all murdered, and countless other progressives die under mysterious circumstances, when political opposition is prevented by nationwide systems of rigged voting machines, how can you say that there is not forcible suppression of political opposition?

[Swamp Rat]

154. Fascism Fascism Fascism Fascism Fascism Fascism Fascism Fascism Fascism

I'm throwing it around a little. :D

[DoveTurnedHawk]

155. The Fascist/Hitler Screamers Only Marginalize Themselves

Which suits me just fine.

DTH

[Zorra]

167. Marginalized fascist screamers like FDR, his VP Henry Wallace,

Thom Hartmann, Robert Kennedy, Jr., etc? Or just those who scream about fascism at DU?

Seems to me that these folks speak/spoke candidly with accurate insight/foresight, clear perception, and with a purpose - to warn Americans of the very real republican-fascist takeover of our government.

July 19, 2004
The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "It Can Happen Here"
by Thom Hartmann
snip---
Vice President Wallace bluntly laid out in his 1944 Times article his concern about the same happening here in America:

" If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."

Nonetheless, at that time there were few corporate heads who had run for political office, and, in Wallace's view, most politicians still felt it was their obligation to represent We The People instead of corporate cartels. "American fascism will not be really dangerous," he added in the next paragraph, "until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information..."

Noting that, "Fascism is a worldwide disease," Wallace further suggest that fascism's "greatest threat to the United States will come after the war" and will manifest "within the United States itself."

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm

Wake Up And Smell The Fascism!:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[Skittles]

156. I think you are dead wrong

the trend is towards fascism - I see it and hear it loud and clearly

[mogster]

157. A bit too much?

:hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3582262

If you mean by fascism, funny looking men in black leather & tooth brush moustaches walking the pogo-togo in black and white pics - yes.

The US is a society in a pre-stage to the real thing IMHO.

[delete_bush]

158. It depends upon which side of the flies/honey

argument you come down on. If you tend toward the rather tedious goal of trying to convert repukes to our side, then I would say it's better to label some of their IDEAS as leaning toward fascism.

On the other hand, if you've had it with them and care not about conciliation, then I say call them as you see them.

My biggest problem with the word is when it takes on a hyphenated usage, such as Islamo-fascist. I have a hard time trying to reconcile these terms with Il Duce's definition, and since it was his creation I much prefer the narrow definition, the melding of state and corporate interests.

[anitar1]

159. Yes, I honestly think fascism is on the rise.

Germans did not think it was, they meekly sat back until it was too late . Then denied all at the end of WW2, claiming that they did not know what was happening. Yeah. Of course, I have memories of those times.

[in_cog_ni_to]

164. Read this. 14 points of Fascism.

A DUer posted this (can't remeber who, but THANKS! :hi:) and I saved it and keep copies in my car because I have a "Just say NO to FASCISM" bumper sticker on my car and will give it to any freeper who has the guts to say ANYTHING snarky to me. Have a read...it fits, unfortunately.

In an essay coyly titled “Fascism Anyone?,” Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, identifies social and political agendas common to fascist regimes. His comparisons of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet yielded this list of 14 “identifying characteristics of fascism.” (The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 2. Read it at http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm ) See how familiar they sound.


Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
 
Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
 
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
 
Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
 
Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
 
Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media are directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media are indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
 
Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
 
Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
 
Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
 
Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
 
Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
 
Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
 
Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
 
Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[Malva Zebrina]

165. It's irrelevant

Do we honestly think that your average Republican, and even your average republican congressman advocates a police state with no media, no individual rights, strong governmental controls on industry/wages/prices, and forcible suppression of all political opposition?

It is George W Bush and his PNAC Straussians who have driven this country into fascism. They have all the control and are riding that dark horse for all it is worth. The "average" Republican congressman is swimming with the Bush tide, or else.