Gates insulted us in an interview today.

[cornermouse]

The interview can be heard at

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1142516

Really ticked me off.

[AlCzervik]

1. hate to be a pain but could you elabroate a little bit?

[cornermouse]

2. As I recall,

Basically, Americans are not smart enough or educated enough to work for him. That's why he is going to China and India. They're smarter than Americans. They're better educated than Americans. All our unemployed programmers just aren't good enough.

As I remember, he can find a ration of 4 Chinese to 1 American programmer (no mention of the ratio of the population of China as a whole as compared to America as a whole). Also, I'm not sure whether he's just picking over their universities or whether he's actively supporting them.

[The Doctor.]

3. Hmm.... Hey I know!

Let's cut more funding to education!

[LSparkle]

5. I wish people like him would admit they're just CAPITALISTS

not Americans or any other nationality. As Randy Newman wrote many moons ago, "It's money that matters ... " and as Randi Rhodes has paraphrased, they value WEALTH over COMMONWEALTH. They can't fathom the concept of members of a society actually putting aside their own selfish desires in favor of what's best for their nation.

And they want people like ME to leave the country -- THEY're the ones who need to go ... PERMANENTLY!

[FreedomAngel82]

20. Well gee duh

Isn't he a Bush supporter? I thought he gave a lot of money to the republicans.

[LynneSin]

55. Actually he use to be a pretty big democratic contributor

But times change

:shrug:

[alfredo]

56. Ralph Reed is working for him. MS gave $5,000 to Asscleft

Remember, buy Blue.

[brettdale]

23. His New CFO

Is a Newzealander, he was being interviewed on our tv here. He said Bill Gates is a very much hands on person in terms of microsoft.

[RAF]

32. better educated huh?

a comment like this coming from a college drop out?

Hell, at least he's following the current republican signature trademarks. Limbaugh, Cheney, Rove all drop outs or in Cheney's case thrown outs. I'm sure there are many more republicans that fall into this category. Let's not even get into avoiding military service through deferment.

[Wizard777]

33. The worst part.

We can't even begin to argue with that until after Bush is out of Office.

[XOKCowboy]

37. It's all about education folks.

My work takes me to worldwide technology shows and the preponderance of attendees are Asians and Indians. It's because education is prized in their cultures. They aren't bogged down in primary and secondary schools by debates over "creation science" and other trivial things. They know that math and real science are the keys to success in today's world.

Sad but true. It's not wonder why we're laughed at by the rest of the world.

[RAF]

47. Look, America can and will turn it around in a second!

Instead of following this posters talking points ask yourself why the rest of the world over a life time couldn't do what America has done its its few short years.

Much of what we are going through in this country has been brought upon us by this administration. Do you honestly feel you would have posters spouting garbage like this in the hey day of the Clinton's years?

There is no doubt, in the last 4 to 5 years our country has sunk to a level that most of us thought could never happen. We will get through it and take hold of all things needed to advance.

[yellozebra]

84. Read the Friedman article

The problems are actually structural at this point, or at least fast becoming so. The US is not innovating fast enough, or China, India, etc and Europe are innovating faster.

But your point about the malAadministration is also valid: see this Morgan Stanley Global Economic Forum on the "Tipping Point": http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20050318-fri.html#anchor0
Basically, they argue that the confluence of the high current-account deficit financed by foreign capital inflows, high oil prices and military over-reach spells the tipping point for Great Power.

And the anti-intellectual stance of this malAdministration isn't helping either. They are telling ordinary Americans that intellectualism is a bad thing, which goes to the "ambition gap" Friedman talks about.

[idlisambar]

86. structural yes

But it is not as simple as saying that the US is not innovating fast enough. There are some fields in which the US has strong technological advantages -- pharmaceuticals, software, and weapons are probably the most of important of these areas, and it is no coincidence that each is backed by substantial public R&D budgets.

The main problem is that though these are important industries, high standing in them is not sufficient to support a large wealthy economy like the United States on a sustainable basis. Other nations have passed us in critical industries such as automobiles, steel, machine tools, industrial robotics/automation, aerospace, electronics, etc. In particular innovation and capital investment is lacking in areas of advanced manufacturing and the US has yielded leadership in these areas to Japan, Germany, France, Korea and several others.

In addition, even though there are no innovation problems in software and Pharma there are other ways in which the industries are mishandled. In Pharma, for example, offshoring of the manufacture of drugs is occuring to such an extent that we actually run a $10-20 billion trade deficit in this category, so that while basic innovation is strong here, the industry is not being used to its fullest extent, and our foundations for future leadership are weak. If for whatever reason the US government discontinues its generous subsidies the mantle of leadership will rapidly move elsewhere.

[Mythsaje]

87. Not to mention

stem cell research. Britain is currently leading the pack, but S. Korea and China are closing the gap fast. The U.S. is pathetically bringing up the rear, at least among technological leaders, because of this administration's bizarre backwards viewpoints on morality and ethics.

Ban human cloning? Go ahead. They'll be doing it in China within a decade. How about human/animal hybrids? China or N. Korea within 15 years.

Not that I think these things are 'good' things, perhaps, but our refusal to engage in this sort of research isn't going to stop it from happening...it just means we'll be sucking hind tit when it all comes about.

[yellozebra]

89. weapons definitely.

I agree there are areas where the US still enjoys advantages, weapons and pharamceuticals being major ones; nothing is ever that simple - but we try and keep this input short.

Nonetheless, one can say that on aggregate there is a concern that the US is not innovating fast enough in key areas, meaning: the US is not investing in its capacity to compete innovately (on average).

Offshoring compounds the problem where the US enjoys current innovative superiority. It affects the US future capacity to innovate. THe point is there are things that should be idea-d, designed, and made in the US in order to sustain the capacity to ideate, design, and implement.

On average, the US will lag behind at current rates - where it already lags behind in some areas.

[idlisambar]

91. We are almost in complete agreement

So forgive me if I focus on a small point.

You say that the "US is not innovating fast enough" and I agree, but one of the problems is that we have placed ourselves in a position in which we depend on constant innovation to stay afloat.

To see what I mean look at where the best of US innovation comes from these days -- our universities. Our universities provide a perfect venue for basic research, and very often the innovations in the university research labs lead to marketable products. But the problem with university research is that the results are available for all to see -- US firms can't build a strong lead based on technology that is publically available and easily duplicated. At most US firms can get "first dibs" on a new innovation, but even this isn't always the case as much of US university research is funded by foreign corporations who expect and receive access just as US firms do. So, in a nutshell, our universities don't just serve us they serve everyone.

This is why private R&D performed by firms is so important. Developed in house, it can be kept out of the hands of competitors and the potential to build a strong lead in a technology exists. US private firms do not invest enough in R&D and new infrastructure and it has only gotten worse in the last few decades. It is this lack of private R&D and inability to keep their bread and butter technologies away from competitors that helps makes US firms weak in advanced technology industries. Any lead acquired quickly evaporates as foreign firms outinvest ours and keep their technology to themselves. Always losing the last battle, Americans are under constant pressure to develop "industries of the future" only, in time, to be beaten in those as well.

[conflictgirl]

57. If only he'd invest some of his billion$ in improving the education system

...not just donating computers to schools.

I've read a lot about the sorry state of American education in the fields of math and science, in particular. I'm not blaming Americans and I'm not really even blaming the school systems; the problem is much, much bigger than that. For starters, all those whiners out there who vote down millages for school funding should just shut up about the types of students the schools turn out. If you want the schools to prepare students for high-level engineering types of careers, you have to fund them adequately. The schools are working with a deck that's been stacked against them when they're so broke teachers have to ask parents to contribute the construction paper and crayons for their kids.

[rman]

92. Translation: Americans are not as cheap is Indian/Chinese laborers.

Western laborers now have to compete on price with low-wage workers.

It's not that their performance is better, it's their price/performance ratio that's better - which for corporations translates to "increased productivity": more profit per worker.

With the living expenses we've got we'll actually be worse of then them.

I'd be happy to work for 14ct a hour (blue-collar sweat shop wage) - if the rent would be $50/month and a loaf of bread would cost 1ct. Though i wouldn't want to give up so-called trade-barriers such as environmental laws and worker's rights, Unions etc.

Ain't globalization wonderful.

[WatchWhatISay]

80. I really hate to read this

Because my son works for Microsoft. They are very good to him, and he is very proud to work there. He is quite liberal and good hearted.

[dbonds]

4. I supposed he means that Microsoft software sucks because

it was made by American programmers. Guess if it wasn't for his underhanded business dealings it would have went nowhere. It is an insult for him to say that, at the same time I would have to say that being a programmer is a lot like being an artist just using technology as your canvas. Education only gives the artist tools. Finding the artist in the midst of those that can use tools but not create art is hard, but there are plenty of them here in the US. Gates just doesn't want to pay what a software engineer is worth in the US, he wants it cheap.

[Horse with no Name]

6. not only that

but didn't he take a shitload of money out of the country and put in Euro's?
I guess his attitude is is that he raped this country and now it's time to move on.

[Anakin Skywalker]

7. I Have Never Regretted

not touching Micro$uck anything. :)

[mutus_frutex]

8. Look at the make up of faculties around the US..

Why is it that there so, so many foreigners there? Why is it that most grad students and postdocs are foreigners?

Maybe because the educational system in this country is fucked up? Because students think they are entitled to good grades even when they don't deserve them?

Yes, MS software is shit, but in this case Bill Gates is right.

[yorgatron]

9. if foreign schools are so good,then why do they bother to study over here

at all?
our system only works at the graduate level?
please explain further,or are you worried about your H1B running out?

[ikojo]

11. I had a roommate from Malaysia and she was here on a

Malaysian government scholarship. She was sent here primarily to learn American English and American business practices.

[mutus_frutex]

14. The answer? Money to do research.

There is a lot of money for research here. Most grad students that come to the States are overeducated for grad school. They usually excel in the courses they have to take. They come not for the education they receive, but for the research they are able to do (which also is, in a sense, part of their education).

I think the whole system is broken, even at the level of grad school. But in that case, since research is the essence, the drawbacks are not so noticeable.

Another reason they come is that the salaries are better, even when they are just a fraction of what people in industry get.

Finally, your veiled insult is quite astute. My visa runs out at the end of the year. Am I worried? Not much. I'm pretty sure I'll find somebody that wants my skills since there aren't many americans that have them.

Cheers..

[ultraist]

18. LOL! (Your last paragraph)

Our lower education institutions SUCK. That's why over 60% of our top researchers are foreign born. (As well as the money incentives). We do offer tuition specials and encourage foreigners to attend college here so we can stay competitive.

I dated a guy from Paris years ago who did some teaching and was APPALLED at the level of the work the High School students were doing. Many other Europeans I've spoken with have said the same thing.

In my Southern public High School, people who were illiterate were graduating. They've since ended social promotion, but the schools have not improved that much in the last two decades.

[mutus_frutex]

22. You know what surprises me?

I come from a very "Prussian" educational system: you have to learn the theory behind almost everything, you have to be able to solve problems that are new and original. You have to learn certain techniques: understand them and memorize them. Teachers TEACH you the techniques, don't help you discover them, which is what teachers seem to do here in the states. One would think that teaching you to discover would encourage your creativity, but it doesn't.

Let me give you an example from my personal experience: The prof. in charge would give a class and the students participate essentially "discovering" the method. Then they go home, solve the problem sets, which are usually identical to book examples or for which they already have the solutions. Then they take the exams that have problems which are essentially identical to the problems in the class sets!?!

Back home we do it the other way around: the class shows you the methodology, the problem sets are original and teach you to use the techniques in an original way. Then the exams are COMPLETELY different from what you saw in class. That's how you learn..

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It's just that this is a topic that ticks me off.. :-)

Cheers..

[cornermouse]

19. edit.

[Strelnikov_]

25. No. There Are Plenty Of Americans Skilled

in creating elaborate fantasy worlds.

[mutus_frutex]

28. And your point is? nt

[yorgatron]

27. so you ARE just here for the money.

i'll tell that to my unemployed friends here in silicon valley.

[mutus_frutex]

30. Nice way of distorting what I said..

Yes, I'm here for the money: For the money to do research. Research that would be much more difficult to do in my home country, research that is helping your country for the most part. If I was interested in money for ME I would be in industry, not doing basic research in academia.

And I'm really sorry for your friends. I've seen the same thing happen to farmers in my home country which can't sell anything to the US due to the subsidies to farmers here.

[ikojo]

13. American education and American attitudes toward

academic achievers needs to change if the country is to remain competitive. I believe kids are too coddled in the early grades. From talks I have had with immigrants, to a person they worry about the effects American culture will have on their teens doing well in school. American high school and college students are encouraged to have fun, fun, fun all the time. As a country we pay lip service to test scores and such but not to real intellectual development. Students today are good trivial pursuit players but are they good problem solvers?

One Chinese immigrant who works as an actuary at the company I work at is concerned about her son's academic performance now that they live in the US.

[mutus_frutex]

16. I'm also quite worried..

But since my daughter is only 1, I have some time to figure out a solution. :-) I can always send her back home to get an education (and considering that back home education is free at every level, it could be a pretty good deal.. :-)

[cornermouse]

31. Hello.

Do you realize that you have basically indicated that you consider us to be inferior to you?

[mutus_frutex]

41. Like clockwork...

Every time I get into one of these discussion somebody says this.

No, I don't think americans are inferior to me. Your educational system is, however, inferior to the one I come from, in many senses.

Don't take it personally.

[cornermouse]

42. Go back and reread what you wrote from our point of view

not yours and think about how you would feel if we said it to you. That's the reason why people say this to you "like clockwork".

And then think about the fact that I have several computer programmers in my family, one of whom has continually been in the position of finding his job outsourced, another has several higher education degrees from our "inferior education system".

[mutus_frutex]

49. Facts are facts..

I'm really sorry people feel insulted by them, but what can I do? Ignore them? And I repeat, I have never said that I think americans are inferior to me. Just to make that point quite clear.

I'm also sorry that you relatives are loosing their jobs to outsourcing. I know the experience from a different point of view. As I said in another message, agricultural businesses back in my home country have been fucked time after time after time by the subsidies of the american and european gvmnts. I truly wish everybody had work, but closing the borders won't solve the problem...

Cheers.

[BiggJawn]

59. Dear me, must not teach much spelling "back home"

"I'm also sorry that you relatives are loosing their jobs to outsourcing."

No, the employers are "loosing" the jobs, the former employees are LOSING them. and "YOU relatives"? as in the Lakota sense, as Mitake Oyasin?
A really minor quibble, especially coming from me, the King of All Bad Spellers, But hey, I just HAD to show you that my "Inferior American Education " wasn't so sucky that I couldn't catch the simplest of mis-spellings...:7

Our schools sure have gone down the toilet in the last 30 years or so, I'll agree with you there.
But what can they do? There's no time to teach anything other than the Legislature-mandated "achievement test".

[mutus_frutex]

70. Thanks for you interest in my spelling..

The first one was a true typo: this notebook has a pretty small keyboard and sometimes I miss a letter. The second one was a true mistake. I always have to think about that one. You could cut me some slack and take into consideration that english is my second language. :-)

Finally, I would like to make some comments regarding the rest of your message, but I'm reconsidering my participation in these forums. Since I've been here I've had 2 messages deleted. The first one I put up with since it was strongly worded and indeed it probably offended a lot of the thin skinned faithful. Now I got another of my messages deleted, a response (that I sincerely think was measured) to a message that I could have perfectly had deleted. As a matter of principle I don't alert. I did it once and ended up with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Sorry that I had to direct this to you, I had to leave this somewhere in the thread. I'm going to answer another message and then ask the moderators for an explanation. If I don't get one I'll probably be out of here. I value freedom of expression above anything else.

Cheers...

[BiggJawn]

74. If you've only had two deleted, then you're not trying very hard.

Deleted? That's NOTHING. Wait till you get a personal (and private) note from one of the Mods or Skinner himself. I've lost track of how many I've had wiped

OK, I'll cut you some slack on account of Murkan not being your first language. :-)

[mutus_frutex]

76. What happens is that I'm a fairly polite guy.. :-)

You wouldn't guess it from the vitriol of some of my messages, but I am.. :-)

As I say in other messages, the removal of messages is one of my pet peeves with DU... I'm used to other type of discourse if you want.

Anyway, I still would like to have an explanation of why the message was deleted. I mean, isn't that a minimal demonstration of respect on the part of the moderators? :-)

Cheers...

[BiggJawn]

78. Nope.

I believe there was a thread in the now-defunct "Ask the Admins" forum to the effect of "The Mods are under no obligation to explain themselves."

BTW, I read some of your other postings, and it's clear to me, at least, where some folks could have gotten the impression that you consider us Americans a quaint bunch, but as long as we're crazy enough to give you and your wife LOTS of money and renew your H1B's, then you're crazy enough to keep taking it...

I'm not offended in the least. I've seen the same mindset amongst Academians who are native-born to this place. I figure it's an "Ivory Tower" thing, not a "Guest Worker" thing.

[cornermouse]

66. Its all in your overall message and your very obvious attitude.

Arrogance is not a strictly American attribute. Apparently its something that crossed the ocean with our ancestors. Like I said, if people are saying something to you like clockwork, you better start checking out what you're saying to get a unanimous reaction. That's what I would do, but then again, since you received a superior education perhaps you don't feel that's necessary...

Perhaps you should have taken more composition, syntax, and basic grammar classes while you were here?

Did I say anything about closing borders? Have I ever said anything about closing borders? No. I would however make Gates and company pay extra to bring their product back.

[mutus_frutex]

71. Think whatever you want.

I have stated facts. You have taken the very petty approach of attacking my spelling. Obviously you can't deal with the facts.

The reaction I get is very similar to the one most liberals (americans) get from conservatives: "Why do you hate america so much"? Some people just can't deal with the truth. I keep repeating the same because I'm amazed that there are people out there that don't realize the truth.

Finally, my apologies for having assumed that you wanted to close the borders.

PS: Do you really think that my grammar, spelling and composition are that bad? I've seen things in these forums that make me weep.

[cornermouse]

15. Gates is lazy, blind, and cheap.

And all his talk of thinking about the future of the country and world, now that he has children, meant nothing.

[mutus_frutex]

17. I used to think very bad of him..

But the money he has been putting into biomedical research has made me change my mind, at least partially. Now I look at him with suspicion only.. :-)

[FreedomAngel82]

21. I think you nailed it

Maybe if people put more money where it belongs (such as education, health care, enviornment) instead of to corporoate whores.

[RAF]

44. then leave now!

Don't use my country for "research" to further your agenda.

Remember it was America that has set the pace in almost every category of everyday life this past century. It's naive and closed minded to think otherwise.

Better question is, what kind of person uses others people to further their own goals. In your case I know we have the answer.

I suggest you take this holier than thou attitude back to your country of origin and help bring it to the level of America. Oh, that's right you had almost the dawning of time to do it, wonder what happened?

[ldf]

48. and some people refuse to see the truth

and just try to attack the "offender".

that is SO like bush and his ilk.

if you can't see that american education, and especially elementary and middle/high schools, have become a joke, then you are blind.

and now they are trying to turn our universities into their "balanced and fair" conservative diploma mills, where "liberal" professors must be silenced.

wake up!

[RAF]

51. who the hell is being attacked here ?

Are you now going to accuse me of being a Bush lover with past posts like this... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3570806&mesg_id=3571469

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1434638&mesg_id=1434638

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3561882&mesg_id=3562383

just as a few?

Don't question me or my opinion when defending our country when those who try to use it to their advantage shit all over it when not needed. Our American history speaks for itself.

I'll say it again, you wouldn't see a half assed post like this during the Clinton years.

[Carni]

52. I don't care for Gates or outsourcing

But I do think there is something seriously wrong with our education system -- what, I do not know and I certainly cannot offer any answers.

This is a sort of irrelevant example, but in my area they built a very elaborate public library (it was like 60 million dollars worth of elaborate) and it is truly impressive. Three floors, Wood paneling, marble throughout, a gazillion private meeting rooms--two huge computer labs and the list goes on and on.

It's a wonderful place, but when I went there the other day to check out books on any of about 4 business topics (as well as some local history topics) I was rather shocked to find that there were very few books (or no books) on the pretty common topics I was looking for.

I find that the public schools in my area are sort of the same way--fantastic surroundings with no substance.

Kind of like all hat no cattle I guess.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

64. True. During WW II some academic said--

--Hitler is my best friend. He shakes the tree, and I pick up the fruit.

[mutus_frutex]

69. My message was deleted.

I have had a couple of messages deleted in the past and I hate it, especially when other message go on undeleted. I'll quite likely leave this forum forever. I'll think it over and decide on Monday.

[Dan]

72. Don't leave

I've enjoyed your comments/thoughts on the subject of our educational system and Bill Gates. Please stay involved.

[mutus_frutex]

75. Thanks.. I was feeling a bit depressed... :-)

The removal of messages here in DU is something that has always pissed me. I understand that something has to be done to keep the number of disruptors down, but the removal of some messages is tantamount to censorship.

Personally, I know that I express myself forcefully sometimes, but my opinions are largely based in fact (I'm a scientist after all!!) and personal experience. I don't resort to insult either. Finally, I don't alert on messages. I think everyone should be heard.

And in this subject it truly pisses me off because it is not like I'm getting rich here in the states! I'm doing fucking basic research. We aren't exactly in the Gates league.. :-) At to hear a supposed liberal come out with the line "If you ain't happy, go back home" it's just a bit too much.

Anyway, thanks again for the message. I'll try to get an explanation from the moderators and then decide.

[dutchdemocrat]

62. America?

Remember it was America that has set the pace in almost every category of everyday life this past century. It's naive and closed minded to think otherwise.

How utterly arrogant. Have you ever been to another country? Europe has had a lot more intellectual influence the arts and sciences that you are obviously not aware of... The UK pound was the globe's backing currency prior to WW2, the Germans led the world in science (as is evident by the hundreds brought over to the US after the war), London is still the world's banking centre, not New York, and France with it's colonies and sphere of influence around the world are no small fries (despite the propaganda teaching Americans that they are the enemy and weak) and the Euro is soon to be the reserve currency in demand (China is already selling off US$) as well as the backing currency for oil (see Russia selling in Euro).

The days of US hegemony did not fall into place until the fifties - hardly the 'last century'.

He who shouts fool is often the fool himself.

Oh yes, my children will be educated in the Netherlands where the government PAYS kids to go to university - that's tax money well spent as far as I can see...

[cap]

88. how grad school got f--- d up...

during the boom, Americans didnt need the extra credential to make good money. Foreigners did need it because their schools did not prepare them for the American workplace and because of discrimination (they need the extra credential). After 10 years, a number of schools overseas have changed their curriculum so that it is more compatible with US industry.

Now, with the bust in the industry, Americans are not going into a dead field (at least a dead field in the US). Who wants a future where you are economically viable only until you reach 40 years old? Who wants the economic instability of the many layoffs in the tech sector? The wage rates are going down... who wants it!

Many American engineers are telling their kids NOT to go into computer science.

American universities and colleges are still the best in the world. Why else would foreigners pay such a premium to come here when they can get a degree in their own country for a few thousand dollars. There's not much financial aid for foreign students.

We are now 13th in terms of broad band usage. When the call comes for more programmers, they will have to go overseas. We, American programmers, will not be there. The best and brightest of us are leaving the field.

[Straight Shooter]

10. And I'm sure his products will go down in price to reflect his $$$ savings

Yeah, right.

I'm stuck with it because my clients have a specific software program that does not accommodate Mac. If I could, I'd dump Gates and all his Microslug products into the deepest darkest well of civilization and never look back.

[cornermouse]

12. I determined today that I only need to stay capable of

using it in an office setting. I'm probably going Apple or something next time.

[MazeRat7]

24. The irony is....

His company is mostly responsible for the "dumbing down" of computer science and technology workers. Microsoft is a "me too", "money driven" corporation. They have never invented anything...only extended the work of others. Shameful.

MZr7

[sendero]

29. That's true..

.... and it's amazing how few people get that. Microsoft, for all their vaunted expertise has not introduced ONE SINGLE MAJOR TECHNICAL ADVANCE TO COMPUTING.

GUI - stole from Apple who stole it from Xerox PARC. Local networking? Novell pioneered it, Microsoft co-opted it. Internet? Once again Bill got caught with his pants down and had to quickly buy someone else's browswer and shoehorn it into windows.

Their big project, Windows NT which began in the mid 80s and evolved into XP, is a piece of shit in which networking wasn't really considered and hence security is merely a sad dream.

Microsoft is the poster-boy company of how inferior products can succeed in the marketplace given enough lies, cheating, stealing and advertisin.

[kineneb]

53. Micro$oft never "invented" any of its technology

If we look at the history of its development we see(continuing from senedero's post):
GUI "taken" from Apple/Xerox
DOS "taken" from CP/M
networking "taken" from Novell

OS written in tinker-toy with so many back doors and holes that a truck (or virus, worm, Trojan horse) can drive through it. Why else do they need to issue major patches right after they come out with an OS "upgrade."

They have been surviving on hype for some time, but the reason Gates complains about the US programmers is that they won't work long hours for less than $20K/year like Indian or Chinese folks will. There are a lot of people here who could do the job, but they are thrown away because they are "too old"(=adults who have families to support and real lives). I don't think anyone has mentioned age-ism in the posts, but it is a real problem in the US IT world. Turn 40 and you can't get a job in tech.

[sendero]

67. Ageism....

.. is a real problem. I was a Windows C++ app developer, working at home on contract labor from 1991-2002. When the dot-com bust happened, it threw thousands of telecom programmers in my area out of work, and business dried up overnight because of it.

Being of advanced years (late 40s) I realized that getting a "job" would not be easy. Having worked in the industry for years, I was well aware of the bias against older people. People who have worked in the industry a decade or two are on to the tricks.

Trick number one: every management fuckup is the coder's emergency. Management of software development in the industry overall is abysmal. Most of the time, programmers are promoted to management, where their skills and temperaments are completely ill-suited to successfully do the job. I've seen it time and again. So when the project hits the rocks, you are expected to work 80 hour weeks in perpetuity (because coders working 80 hour weeks write crap code and so the vicious cycle begins).

Trick number two: you can't have a life and be a programmer. The stupid stereotypes about the kid with pizza and cola heroically saving the day working 20 hours days is embraced by lots of idiots. Never mind that that is a good portion of the reason that Microsoft code is among the lousiest in the industry. You really do get what you pay for.

So, older programmers who aren't taken in by these stupid management tricks have a hard time getting work. I made a decision to pursue another line of work after thinking about it for a while and seeing how bad the market around here (Dallas) is/was, and it's tough going but I don't miss the bullshit, only the money :)

[candy331]

26. Well why he is at it, I suppose he can sell it to them too rather than

expect low wage workers to buy them since soon no decent jobs for college/non college grads will be had in this country.

[Disturbed]

38. Bill Gates is a Capitalist ASSHOLE!

Most Corps now don't a damn about Amerika or it's people. They prefer to be Multi-Intl. Outsourcing, Insourcing, re-location of mfg. are all part of their greed. The Bush Junta is the same. The Dem Party has been complicit. Amerika is not important as a viable source of labor. Politicians love ignorant/stupid people as their base. Amerika has been a Plutocracy from the start. Now with the Bush Junta, Amerika is rapidly sliding into a Capitalist Fascist Nation. The population at large has no clue about this.

[Wizard777]

34. What gave us away?

All of our computer book titles that end with "for dummies."

[cap]

35. Gates needs SuperCheap Labor 'cause

1. His software is a piece of crap with ever increasing numbers of bodies to maintain that warped piece of spaghetti. Only one thing. Piling on the bodies wont solve his problem. It's not really that far from complete collapse. His stock is trading at 24 for a reason.

2. Open source is threatening his profit margins.

3. There is no expertise overseas that isn't duplicated here by overqualified (not just qualified, but overqualified) American programmers. There are lots of 40 and 50 year olds who are laid off who WROTE THE VERY SOFTWARE!!!!!! These are the people WHO BUILT THE INDUSTRY. Gates just doesnt want to pay health and retirement benefits! That's what this is ALL about.

4. Everyone is defining qualifications way too narrowly these days. If you do a reasonable job of keeping up, each product modification is not that different. They are all built on something from the past!
Java SWING is really MOTIF X-Windows repackaged, etc.

[Wizard777]

39. Gates Uses Prison Labor

Hey Kid do you want a job manufacturing Software CD's? Sell drugs or rob a liquor store and turn yourself in. Microsoft manufactures their Sofetware CS's in a California Prison. It is one of the better paying prison jobs. I don't remember if they were being paid 8.00 per hour or 8.00 per day. But I do remember the report saying that he would have to pay 28.00 per hour to non prison labor to do the same work.

[Az]

36. Could you clarify how that is an insult

I doubt Gates, a heartless capitalist who's only motivation is profit, would say something just to spite the US. His motivation goes to what makes him money. We all complain about how education in the US is being destroyed by the right. Well Gates is just agreeing.

He has an active interest in getting the best programmers for his money. It doesn't serve him to hire bad programmers even if they are cheap. If he can get good programmers for cheap so much the better.

So I am wondering how it is an insult. It is untrue? Are you saying that there is something genetically superior about Americans? Are you saying that we naturally make better programmers? Are you saying that it is impossible for India or China to have good programmers?

[cornermouse]

40. First of all. We all don't complain about education prior to

NCLB. That train wreck has just started on its merry little way.

I am saying that contrary to what Gates indicated, we are NOT inferior to Chinese or Indian, but nice try at twisting what I said.

The fact is, there are a lot of very good unemployed programmers in the U.S. who are more than capable of doing any job Gates would want done.

I seem to remember a fable about a monster that turns around, sees its on tail, and starts eating itself. That is exactly what Gates and the other CEOs are doing with their endless hunt for the cheapest labor. They're just too dumb to realize it.

[Az]

45. I have contrary experience

I have worked with and for Indian IT personal. They are quite well educated. I also have Chinese relatives and from what I have heard and what I have read the Chinese are quickly outpacing our education in science and computer education.

Its not a question of the quality of individuals in any of the nations. It is a fact that the US education system has been degrading over time. Meanwhile other nations have been increasing their education and dedication to education. Thus the gap has been closing and in some cases has reversed positions.

[Unions]

43. Who cares about being competitive?

When competitive means you're considered a good tool for folks like gates?

I'm pleased making $8.50/hr. I don't have a whole lot of material crap, but I'm happy and that's all that counts with me.

These corporations think if you weren't trained for one of their high pay high skill jobs you're somehow less worthy of life. No thanks - I don't need their money or their philosophy.

[barbaraann]

46. The problem is Microsoft's management practices and leadership.

The problem is NOT the employees.

[jen4clark]

50. Maybe

we should take it as tough love? I didn't listen to the audio so I'm not defending Bill, but I do know he's not the only one pointing out our education system isn't keeping up with the times...

It's a Flat World, After All
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

http://digbig.com/4dgtr

(link is to NYTimes Magazine)

[kineneb]

58. Yes, our education system sucks.

For the most part, the regular public schools were designed to train nice obedient factory workers and farmers. The problem is - we have no more factories, and farming is not an attractive or lucrative occupation. The schools have not kept up in terms of vocational training.

Back in the 1960's, there was a national push for science and math education due to the space race. These are the 40-60 year old unemployed programmers. Since then there has been no national resolve to push real technical achievement and the schools have gotten "flabby."

Add to that-
1. Mainstreaming. Possibly one of the worst educational ideas. When you have all abilities from vegetable to genius in one classroom, all you can do is teach to the middle. Foreign schools are undemocratic and track their students by ability. That may mean Johnnie doesn't go to college, but at least he will learn an occupation. Here, he takes a mish-mash of classes and is not prepared for the real world after high school. ("Would you like fries with that?" is his future.)

2. No child's behind left. Testing proves you can take a test. That is all. Add to it the vegetable-genius problem and the scores are meaningless. Why should the NCLB tests include the mentally disabled? And what about districts in really poor areas? Where children don't have proper homes and food. How can they possibly compare with test scores from middle and upper class neighborhoods?

3. America's long anti-intellectual tradition. We are fighting this all over again with the "christian" right. "We don't need none of that thar fancy larnen, we all jus' read the Bible and evrthang the Lard wuns us ta'know is in thar." AAArrrrrgggghhh!

[B0S0X87]

61. Expect to get flamed for bringing that up

I, however, think Friedman, despite his amazing idiosyncracies, brings up some very good points in the book. We are living in a global community, there is no way around that. To survive in a global community, we must remain competitive, and we can't try to close our borders or whine about the "globalist facist pigs." What we can do is update our education system for the 21st century, get rid of crap like NCLB, and make health care available for all Americans.

[nolabels]

77. B.S., the only reason they go to the other side of the globe is because...

they can't get here in the states. I.e. cheep labor, to tell me that I or the other smuck next to me can't figure out what some other smuck over there can is not even logical. How about boiling it down to basics, like the Gates management team does. Like fuck that guy already, bet he is just pissed about open source. I am glad to see him getting his ass kicked in finally. :hi:

[yellozebra]

82. Thanks for link. "Ambition Gap"

The point about the "ambition gap" is most difficult. We should "interest gap" too. I remember, some 10 years ago, it was a standard refrain that the US produces many more lawyers than engineers/scientists.

On a related note: MIT makes almost all of their course materials available online. This is an amazing reseource, available to anyone with a computer, an internet connection and interest. I know professors outside the US that use it/consult it/compare it to their own work.

[Corgigal]

60. I don't think it's about our education system

nor do I believe any other country as a better system but I do know what they have that we don't. Their society SEES the starving and the homeless. They see what can happen to you if you don't bust your ass right here and right now. American children can't believe it can happen to them. Between the MTV channels and the I-Pods and Play-station they can't see any difference then what they are living right now. Our capitalist society has sheltered them from seeing that possible reality. We parents do it also. We will pay extra taxes to put the mentally ill, homeless or poor out of our view and then blame that person for screwing up somewhere along their life.

Actually we have done too well for our children. We, the American people and of course the corporations who sell these items, believe that all children should have these things because all the other American children do. Yeah most of them do too.

People do only as much as they have to do. Especially our kids and young adults. When they see they too can be homeless and hungry without any shelter then we will regain our strength. Corporation love docile populations and hungry people are very docile when they need their paycheck just to eat. They must be. We aren't at that level yet.

This isn't about education, this is about being human.

[sweetheart]

63. Educated americans make bad slaves, they're too uppity

Indians and Chinese however, have a huge "distance to power" as a cultural
attribute, something that is much more in keeping with slavery.

Distance to power, basically suggests, that if you put the beginning
programmer in a room with the chief architect, an american will talk
frankly as much as they're educated, as equals. In a distant culture,
the beginning programmer will only say yes sir and sweat the whole
time offering no dialog, just slave behaviour.

The american corporation is about enslavement of a sort, and though the
culture preaches the 14th amendment, the corporatocracy has overturned
it in all but name. And when there is a slave revolt in the free
states, they simply take the plantation to where they can get more
humble slaves. It is wall street using bill gates as a tool, and bill
being an arrogant egotist, believing his success has conferred on
himself some sort of divinity, rather than being content with his
great good luck to have scammed IBM with the license for basic.

[yellozebra]

79. This may or may not be true, but no culture is static

Cultures are dynamic and the interconnectedness of the world makes this even more so. But interesting point, although I would not suggest that certain peoples are predisposed to slavery over others. But, slavery to what/whom ultimately? The vigilance of the American psyche, against corporate enslavement, is largely mythical though, IMO. The pervasive lack of critical thinking on many issues, and social ignorance puts this in doubt.

I teach college students both American and foreign. I agree with some of the observations about weaknesses of the American public educational system at some levels, better research funding in the US, etc. Another one is personal security, American students enjoy better personal security.

Some related things that we don't hear often, the so-called "comparative advantage," and social justice issues at a global scale. I wonder, can workers afford to ignore the social justice issues affecting workers in other countries? In this global economy, worker exploitation-for-economic-gain somewhere else means one can't get a job here, because one won't stand (or the legal system won't allow) for one's exploitation. It sounds so "communisty" Workers International like, that it is difficult to even start the discourse, in the US anyway.

The biggest challenge IMO is engaging all students and others to see problems holistically, the interrelatedness of many of the things we experience.

Sorry - for the long post.

[prohemp]

65. I agree with Gates and others who say

America has a problem with it's education system. At my college, if you look at the people in engineering and computer science 95% speak english as a second language. They are mostly from India and Asia. They have been doing calculus since 5 grade, I was only introduced to it at the university. This is not why they have an advantage though, it is mindset. Most Americans are in college to party. I don't know why. Maybe it's our culture or because we encourage non-intellectuals to pursue college, while they don't (just guessing).

I think that that the decline of science in America is political though and is the fault of both sides from what I see. The left, just wants evolution to be taught badly. This enrages the right and they waste time fighting against evolution and science in general. Until I got to college and began taking computer science, evolution was the mainly the only science I had learned. Now I like evolution, and I find it interesting. But really it's just a dogma, and even once you finally accept it, it doesn't really do anything for you. After learning to program, I think they should be teaching computer science instead. If you can program, you can make money, and change the world. I have yet to find out what the use of evolution really is other then to give religous people a spiritual crisis.

[barbaraann]

68. You think evolution is taught to give religious people a spiritual crisis?

That's pretty bizarre.

[fujiyama]

83. Ummm....

I agree with the part about the US education system having major problems. Asians have a strong work ethic. There is simply no denying that.

But I don't understand what the hell evolution has anything to do with it.

In other countries teaching evolution DOESN'T cause the same fuss. The same people you talk about coming from high schools from India and other countries don't have disputes over teaching evolution.

Evolution is a basic scientific concept and is a fundamental part of biology.

[CJCRANE]

93. Can you name one other

successful, advanced country that doesn't have evolution in its biology curriculum?

About the only country I can guess was against teaching evolution would be Afghanistan under the Taliban.

[Nikki Stone 1]

73. Gates didn't invent DOS--it was created by Xerox in Palo Alto with tax $$

And his mommy was on the board of IBM.

And now this piece of oppotunistic garbage, who made money on the work of other people--AMERICAN PROGRAMMERS--runs his ugly little mouth insulting Americans to justify the fact that he is hiring CHEAP workers overseas? When he wasn't smart enough to create the product himself?

Garbage.

Just garbage.

[harpo]

90. actually it wasn't xerox or gates

It was Tim Paterson

[barbaraann]

81. Gates' mugshot--laughing at us.

http://www.mugshots.org/misc/bill-gates.html

[snowbear]

85. Wasn't that interview...

done back in 2002? :shrug: