Ignorance is our number one problem- we need to reach out to repubs

[Unions]

(First let me say when I say repubs I am NOT talking about the hard right or the fundies. They are a lost cause and spending any time on them is a waste. I am referring to the middle (somewhat sane) voters who refer to themselves as republicans. Also, when I say reach out I do NOT mean adopt republican positions - I mean education)

I was talking to some repubs today and you know what I noticed? They generally want the same things we do. They agreed with me health care was broken. Hell, one of them in a timid voice actually said "well, maybe we should socialize it some" They were very anti-gay. They were very pro-gun. They agreed on other issues like the economy being screwed.

The thing is even though they did hold some genuine republican positions (like being anti-gay) they generally seemed to realize things were broken and needed to be fixed. Hell, one of them even told me he didn't like bush but voted for him anyway.

So why is that?

Well, these people were EXTREMELY ignorant. No idea what's going on politically, outside of the country, nor even had a very good even basic understanding of economics. From the conversation I realized that if they were informed they *probably* would vote democratic, but ignorance was keeping them voting republican. They didn't even seem to be familiar with democratic party positions.

I think we need a candidate in 08 and candidates in 06 that are very able to communicate and educate in simple easy to understand means. In a way almost like clinton, but more so. I think if we can educate people and make them truly understand WHY we have solutions and HOW they will work for THEM we can get those votes. Does anyone else agree? I think simple education could solve the problem.

[lonestarnot]

1. You do it and good fucking luck LOL

[Maddy McCall]

2. They're anti-gay, probably anti-choice, and YOU call them SANE?

Hahahaha!

[Unions]

3. Again

I'm not talking far fundie right. When I say anti-gay I mean primarily anti-same sex marriage/civil union... but other than that I didn't detect any further bigotry.

[Maddy McCall]

10. We have a huge gay base in our party.

Are you going to tell them that their rights are negotiable, in the effort to reach out to "moderate" Republicans who are anti-gay?

So you are saying that we should abandon some of our core to attract moderate Republicans? Would you propose the same thing with women's right to choose--abandon that part of the platform so that we can attract some "moderate" Republicans?

Sorry, but the day the Democratic party abandons either will be the day I look for a new party. And I'm saying that as someone who's very involved in my party on the grassroots and state level. Very involved.

[Unions]

11. Did you even read the post?

"Are you going to tell them that their rights are negotiable, in the effort to reach out to "moderate" Republicans who are anti-gay?"

As I clearly said, but for some reason you chose to ignore - I am NOT talking about adopting republican positions. I am saying we need to educate these people and if we do so these anti-gay positions along with voting republican can change. If the party comes across people who refuse to be educated then we should say screw them and move on to others.

"Sorry, but the day the Democratic party abandons either will be the day I look for a new party. And I'm saying that as someone who's very involved in my party on the grassroots and state level. Very involved. "

I would leave the party as well in that case.

[Maddy McCall]

15. So are you saying that the "moderate" Republicans of whom you speak...

the ones who are "anti-gay," can be swayed to our party by "education?"

First of all, I don't call someone who is "anti-gay" moderate. Second of all, the ones who are "anti-gay" will never put their gut-level homophobia on hold to come to a party that makes more economic sense.

[Unions]

18. There are two types of anti-gay

And I think you need to recognize that.

There are the ones who are against moving civil rights ahead (in the realm of marriage for instance) out of ignorance. But other than this are generally not anti-gay. (for instance, they don't have personal issues with people who are gay)

The other type is the fundamentalist HATE kind. These people work off of hate not ignorance, AND they have personal issues with people who are gay.

The first can be reached, the second is a lost cause as I indicated originally.

Now your next post is probably going to be further "no they can't be" and I call BS on that. Even though I have been here only a little while at DU I have already come across posts from people who stated they are FORMER bigots who were caught up in the rhetoric of right wing fundamentalists. That alone is proof people can be educated - you just have to try.

[Maddy McCall]

20. How exactly do you think that the former can be reached?

I'd like to hear your proposal on this. How will you educate people who don't want to provide civil rights to gay people, and still hold the gay base of the party?

If you can provide a solution to this, I'm all ears.

[Unions]

22. Can't be done

I conceed that, and they shouldn't be focused on.

However, there are plenty who are ignorant that can be reached. In fact these are the people the fundamentalists use to get the numbers up. It's almost like hitler in a way. These people only know what they've been told.

Did you read much about that justice sunday or whatever the hell they were calling it? Do you remember the line about "a filibuster has never ever been used before to stop an appointment"? We all know that's BS - but the people they were speaking too didn't know that. They didn't have a clue and that's WHY they are following the fundamentalists. If they knew they were being told BS they could convert.

[Kool Kitty]

13. You don't need to detect any further bigotry.

Anti civil union/anti same-sex marriage is quite bigoted enough, thanks.

[The Doctor.]

7. I suppose if you knew nothing about gays and

abortion, then you would have the same position?

That is something you cannot know.

And what the OP is saying is that these people don't know.
That could explain the belief in a green-cheese Moon, let alone bigotry.

[Maddy McCall]

8. Bigotry is not based on logic, and no amount of logic will reach them.

Education cannot reach someone whose beliefs are founded in select ignorance. The Republicans described by the original poster have beliefs founded in select ignorance. They will vote for people like Bush over any Democrat everytime because their beliefs are based in fear and ignorance--an ignorance they CHOOSE. Period.

[Unions]

9. If this was true then MLK would have failed miserably

People CAN be educated you just have to identify the ones who are most likely to be viable candidates and do so.

[Maddy McCall]

12. If you read up on the civil rights era...

you will know that what turned public opinion happened in the summer of 1964. People across the nation were appalled that white children were being beaten (and killed--think Goodman, Schwerner, and Cheney) by southern cops.

I'll give MLK his due...he was a great man. But the tide didn't turn for acceptance of black civil rights until people were fed up with the violence.

Let's take your arguement a little further, though. Even though Dixiecrats would have us abandon our adherence to civil rights for everyone, we refused to, even though many abandoned the Democratic party for the Republican one. By your logic, to attract and keep the centrist of both parties, we should have ceded on them. NO amount of education would have kept or attracted racists to the party that stood firm for black civil rights.

[Unions]

14. I disagree

MLK and the civil rights movement changed peoples minds. I've read more civil rights literature than I can remember and this "It happened because white kids were getting beaten" is a new one to me.

[Maddy McCall]

17. I live in the south and am finishing my PhD in history at a southern...

university, the history department of which specializes in civil rights and African-American history. I'm only telling you this so that you won't disregard my opinion as uninformed. It's very informed.

I'll be more than happy to provide a bibliography of modern sources, by modern historians, on this topic, if you desire to read them.

MLK did make a difference. I don't deny that. But the televised skirmishes between white "freedom workers" and white cops appalled the nation, and only then did senators and congressmen begin demanding something to be done.

You ever heard the RFK-Ross Barnett tapes? If you haven't, then go listen.

But more to the point:

You didn't respond to this part of my previous post: "Let's take your arguement a little further, though. Even though Dixiecrats would have us abandon our adherence to civil rights for everyone, we refused to, even though many abandoned the Democratic party for the Republican one. By your logic, to attract and keep the centrist of both parties, we should have ceded on them. NO amount of education would have kept or attracted racists to the party that stood firm for black civil rights."

[flyarm]

39. NOT ALL REPUBS ARE

anti gay or anti choice..all my friends are repubs..and through my educating them about pnac and the lies to war..and my not giving up on them and my force feeding them facts and truth of whats going on..and my being merciless getting them to read pnac..and keeping them informed..got them to vote dem not repub for the first time in their lives in nov..of course they didn't believe me at first..but the more i pointed out to them..the more their eyes were opened...most are lifelong repubs, and when you ask them why they are repubs..they don't even know..its just all they know..from family genes i guess..now most of them dislike * as much as we do..they just aren't as vocal about it..because they are ingrained in being repub..
in fact i will go as far as to tell you ..one couple came to my fla home when the war started..the husband sat inside watching "war" on tv...he was very pro war ..and i spent 5 days educating him about the lies of 9/11 and the lies about this war..and he listened not enthusiastically..but he was on my domain..
well i went on to become a delegate to the dem convention..and when i returned from it i stayed at their summer home..and the husband asked me to go for a walk the first night..and we sat on the beach..now this is a rough and gruff man..and when we sat on the beach..he got tears in his eyes..and he thanked me ..for fighting so hard for our country..for educating him, and he apologized to me..and in essence to all of us..that he did not take the time to know the facts..before the war started..and he apologized for doubting me..and he said he was sorry for doubting all i told him..but he said everything i told him happened and was the truth..now he said this all with tears in his eyes..

i think ( i don't know for sure) but i think the tears were because he knew he could no longer be ignorant about his "party" and he could no longer be ignorant about his "country"...

i told him also with tears in my eyes..that democracy is a very fragile thing..and that it is our job as stated in the constitution to be the keeper of our democracy..and it is all of our jobs for the future of this democracy to pay attention..to do the research, and to know what our employees ( pres ,congress, fed employees) are doing at all times..i said it is not about party..not a d or an R..its about us as a people..
well he put his arms around me..and thanked me for fighting so hard for our children and for our nation, and our democracy...

he went on to stand up in front of a house full of people when we walked back to his house ..and told all the repubs there..that he was not going to vote for * and not going to vote republican again as long as they continued to destroy his country...

and he told them they all better listen to what i had to say about this admin...
by the time the weekend was over i had converted very pro* people and they all voted for Kerry, and not * they were appalled by what i told them about pnac..and rebuilding Americas defences..and about the lies of 9/11, and the lies of this war...

now these are not fundies..theses are lifelong repubs..and no anti gay, and not anti choice..they are wealthy own big businesses ..they can certainly be greedy..but they are concerned republicans about the future of this nation they leave to their kids..and they do care about the legacy they leave..there are many repubs who are not anti gay..or anti choice..just like their are anti gay dems and anti choice dems..we are not a country of pre packaged people...many repubs know that things are not right with *..and they are concerned...
and we can not keep singing with the choir..we need to expand and reach out..that does not mean giving up our dem values..it means educating ..and yes it takes patients..and we need to know facts when we speak with them about this stuff..and not go off half cocked
or emotional..facts ..and yes proof of those facts..as like most humans we need to show proof of what we say..its just human nature..people don't change easily..but armed with facts and proof..it is difficult to deflect you!!

and remember..there are assholes on both sides of the isle..we have our assholes just as they do..( they have alot more..but no point in pointing that out!)..you don't have to be one to talk to other americans and make them understand whats going on..they know something is not right..they are just not armed with the facts...and many of the repubs are not radical like the neo cons..most don't even know what you are talking about when you say neo con..

and yep..you will probably fail more than succeed..but does that mean giving up..not for me it doesn't ..it just makes me more determined to educate ..its my country..my father and grand father fought for it, my husband and brothers fought for it..so should i give up esily because i get laughed at or treated rudely..now way no how..my father ate bugs for survival in guam..he didnt give up for the survival of our nation..my grandfather left his eye on the uss arizona in ww1 as a gunner..did he give up..nope..so neither am i!!

fly

[The Doctor.]

4. Why do you think

There is a screaming campaign about "How Full of Hate the 'other side' is..."?

That's why we have Anne Coulters and Rush Limbaughs... and Mike Malloy doesn't help that much either.

If they can keep us at each-other's throats, we'll never have productive dialogue. They are terrified of the prospect of all of us having constructive discourse.

[LittleClarkie]

30. Reminds me of Clinton's DNC speech

Republicans must keep people divided to be effective. Dems don't need that. The more unified the better.

I don't always like Clinton. But that was one damn fine speech. A small business owner/Republican in Starbucks stopped me (I was wearing a K/E button) and said that even she was practically cheering after that speech. For a split second, she wasn't sure she was on the right side.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. The middle may be negotiable right now

as I think they are getting sick of the Christian rights BS.

[applegrove]

6. The ones who see the extremism as a bad thing should be reached

out to. The ones who lack compassion - forget about them.

[Montauk6]

16. Here's the problem though...

I can understand someone not liking Dubya in 2000 (let's say a McCain supporter) but voting for him because he's on the ticket.

Fair enough.

IN 2004, after the most disastrous, corrupt term, maybe, in this country's history, "ah well, he's on the ticket" doesn't cut it for me. I mean, what more could Bush have done TO CONVINCE you (I'm referring to the ambivalent Repubs) that his administration deserves pink slips all around?

I know, I'm still emotional about November but I just don't see (and I do appreciate your sentiments, Unions) how ANYONE who voted for this man is politically educable. I think, at best, a handful MIGHT be swayed but not enough to make the effort worthwhile.

I'm even willing to go so far as to saying that these people knew damn well what they were doing when they voted for him. He's gonna stick it to the queers, cut your taxes, and leave your guns alone; now he may run roughshod over the constitution and bankrupt this nation but if he satisfies the aforementioned three requirements, there's nothing a Dem can do to sway them otherwise.

I hope I'm wrong and that I'm letting my cynicism cloud my judgement, I truly do. It's just that I've been feeling the same deep disgust in the pit of my stomach since about 8:00 PM (EST), 11/04/2004; and all I can muster with regards to Bush voters (all of them) is, may you sleep in the bed you've helped mess up.

[Unions]

21. I understand where you are coming from

But think about it this way - can you feed your family a gun? When bush-economics costs someone a job he can offer them all the guns they want, but if it's not putting food on the table those gun rights start losing importance REAL fast.

More and more people are being personally hit, and things are only going to get worse from this point on. As this happens more and more people will be able to be educated once they understand the how and why they have a gun but not a meal.

[Montauk6]

26. Nope...

nope nope nope nope.

As long as their convinced that the other side is out to steal their rod, Junior can have flies chewing on his ears and his ribcage practically exposed but that won't sway dear ol' Pop(ulist).

OK, maybe that's a bit extreme...

Seriously though, many of these people (I've mentioned my experience in being "in the life" some years ago) would prefer struggling under what they're led to believe is pure capitalism offered up by the consoviets than to accept any relief under "liberal commie pinko socialist altruistic collectivism."

Granted there was a time when perceptions of the economy were enough to sway voters from one party to another but there's an odd wind blowing these days.

[Maddy McCall]

29. It's not extreme.

Guns.
Gays.
Abortion.

The three sticking points for many a "moderate" Republican.

[moddemny]

35. .....but not all moderate republicans care about...

Guns.
Gays.
Abortion


For many, national security was the number one issue and they are not that passionate about gays or abortion. Many moderates were duped (or self deluded) into beleiving that Bush was the better national security candidate after 9/11.

[Montauk6]

38. But in their logic...

Wouldn't the party they perceive as "strong" on gun rights be naturally "stronger" (again in their pretzel logic) on national security?

[moddemny]

40. Maybe.....

Guess you have to set up a hunting/target practice contest between Kerry and Bush. I am sure Kerry learned to shoot straighter in Vietnam.

[bling bling]

19. I think lack of energy is our biggest problem.

And I think that we should be reaching out more to the people who stay home on election day.

We need a candidate who appeals to the people. Who makes the people feel energized. At the risk of repeating myself on this board, we need someone like Obama. Obama has a flair that appeals to people. His speeches make you want to stand up and cheer. It sounds cheesy but he makes you feel good.

Someone like that is what we need to win people over to this party, I think.

[Bouncy Ball]

23. I find more success and on a larger scale, reaching out

to undecided voters who claim no party affiliation AND especially to people who were previously not even registered to vote.

In other words, the previously apolitical. Now THOSE people usually become Democrats.

And that's a lot faster way of widening our nets than messing around with most repukes nowdays.

Let's put it this way: I believe MOST republicans who have any kind of brain in their head or heart in their chest or COMMON SENSE have already left the republican party, whether they've been real public about it or not. Becuase this republican party is not republican. It's something else altogether. And old-school republicans have already recognized that.

But hey I don't want to discourage you. Go for it.

[hfojvt]

24. ********************* U-N-I-O-N

Sorry, I just had to pull a Norma Rae, and welcome to DU, as it were.

Eduction is, of course, very necessary, but like Mondale quoted Will Rogers "it is not so much what they don't know, as it is that the things they know for certain are just plain wrong". The noise of the RNM (Rep noise machine) is so wide-spread and deafening that it is hard to get anything else heard. This country is seeped in it from childhood, and the MSM (or SCLM) holds it up far more than they challenge it. Sometimes I wonder if JR Bush is really that much worse than his dad or if I am so much better informed of what is going on due to non-mainstream media. Then again, many people, perhaps myself included, use non-mainstream media, not necessarily to learn, but to get their biases affirmed.

[sandnsea]

27. things they know are just plain wrong

Even very intelligent Republicans turned Democrats believe things that just flat aren't true. Then you add the smear campaigns on top of that. You can't educate both the core untruths and fight every single smear lobbed . We have to expose the whole thing, outside of an election year.

[Liberal In Texas]

25. Yeah, sorry. No.

This attitude that we should compromise with things that are dead wrong is dead wrong.

I agree, "Unions", that there are extremely ignorant people, but geeze, to say, just because you're so extreme, I have to meet you in the middle is wrong. Because it isn't the middle!

"Yes, Adolph, you can have the Sudetenland, but not Austria." Then he wanted Austria, and Poland, and France, and Spain, and England, and Russia, and the rest of the whole bloody world.

What they are doing, is nibbling little by little our rights, our freedoms, our very way of life. Is there a compromise for that? I don't think so.

Next, are we to compromise on the war in Iraq to prevent Iran? Or Syria? Or Korea? Or...?

NO!

The madness has to stop now.

The Limpdick/O'Factor/HandMeACheckFromFox sheeple that have been so throughly programmed over the years, can't be compromised with anyway.
Not until it hits them home real hard:
The truck has no gas, they get laid off, they get sick and can't afford the bills, or the kid is killed in "Iraq". Then they wake up.

I must say, though, that in our normal governmental advise and consent way of doing business, compromise is how the country works. When was the last time we had that as a normal? Early Clinton?

These people are trying to change our courts, our congress, our separation of church and state, etc.

And in this, I do not compromise.

[jdj]

28. Right, Randi Rhodes says it best, the problem is the media.

and I concur.

no retreat, baby, no surrender.

[Liberal In Texas]

36. Thanks jdj for the support....

...and I agree whole-heartedly....

They'll beat us down, otherwise.

[icehenge]

31. Good thoughts, I agree

I think talking to people and also known republicans is the
way to get them educated as you mentioned. I don't understand
why your getting tough comments on this suggestion.

I live in a county that voted 70+% for Bush in 2004. Now this is
a stronghold in the state. Almost all in this county are high
salary earners( that seems to be their goal in life...)
It's entirely twisting to talk to most of them but I'm still trying
small talk.

A best friend of mine only graduated high school and works retail.
He hates his job and is trying to get out. He is a republican.
And it really confused me when he told me this since I'd have never
expected it. Now he didn't vote in 2004 because as he said
"my vote doesn't count".
He may vote in the next election as I've worked him over :)
I asked him why he leans republicans a few months before
the 04 election. He said
"I like that their motto around getting a job, They think
everyone should go out and get a job and that the goverment
shouldn't be helping anyone, that were all on our own"

Now mind you I have an 2yr degree and have been looking for a
full time entry level Information Technology job for over 4 months
now. My friend is also in IT and has since gotten a certificate in
computer hardware/software repair. He can't find a job either,
and he is still working retail. Now I haven't asked him again
if he still agrees with that Republican motto he told me but
I'm going to shortly.

Now to explain why I think he agrees with Republicans.
Oreilly, and Rush are all over the radio in this area. My buddy
listens to Oreilly quite often. To be honest I think it just
hasn't accrued to him that their might be another side to the
stories he is hearing on the radio. Thats why we need to talk
to people!

[flaminbats]

32. winning these votes is our only hope for realignment..

The key is understanding why so many voters who believe in universal healthcare, balanced budgets, alternative energy, and oppose the Iraqi war..vote Republican. They hear the nonstop attacks against Democrats, but not the flaws of Republicans they supported.

If we attacked Republican incumbents for exploding the national debt, protecting insurance companies discriminating against the most vulnerable, closing off public access to government records, making it a crime for financially strapped workers to declare bankruptcy, bankrupting Social Security and Medicare, trying to abolish the minimum wage, opposing the popular election of our President, refusing to break up and regulate corporate monopolies, wanting to execute women for first trimester abortion, using the military for world domination rather than national defense, and making standardized tests the center of a nationalized school system.

[Raksha]

33. The difference between "them" and "us" is the media. It's that simple.

People who habitually vote Republican, who don't like Bush but vote for him anyway, are also people who depend on the MSM (especially television) for information. Okay, *WE* know the quality of the information they are getting is slanted and distorted, but *THEY* don't know it.

I know this because I live with someone like that, and have so far been unable to convince him that the Internet is a better source of information than the corporate media.

[moddemny]

34. Educating them would help in a few areas...

.... that the mainstream has conveniently glossed over. I think you could win over quite a few moderate republicans on national security if you explained to them what Clinton's true record was on Bosnia, Kosovo and the Balkans. How he stopped the genocide there and how at the time many republicans were vehemently opposed to any intervention. When Bush came to office he was agaisnt nation building and the committed the ultimate flip flop by invading Iraq and his spokespeople used the ousting of Milosevic as a example to support their case.

[Solly Mack]

37. Some people are sponges and some people are pumice

If water was knowledge, some people would absorb it and some people would just float around in it, never absorbing a bit.

I'm just saying...

[Turd Ferguson]

41. Our biggest problem

is that we have such a combative nature towards those who voted for Bush. Many ARE idiots, I've seen them and laughed at them just like the rest of you guys. But there are a lot of thoughtful people, especially in areas that vote Republican, that vote Republican while holding their nose. I love Dean as the DNC Chair for this reason, he wants to increase the dialogue with the South and traditionally Repub. areas. We do this, and we're back in 2006 and 2008. If we don't, we will lose.

[Solly Mack]

42. I'm from the South and it's going to take more than dialogue to

get some of the folks to remove their heads outta their asses. They've been conversing with their own caca so long they think the toilet practices censorship because it flushes shit away.

Fact is, quite a few people in the South are just plain wrong in their thinking. From start to finish...wrong. The kicker is, many don't care how wrong they are...it's a point of pride with them. Willfully ignorant and proud of it.

Now, it's not only in the South where one finds the willfully ignorant...so don't anyone reading this work up some mock outrage by pretending that's what I said.

Hell, I am a southerner and have tried to dialogue with them...they get all defensive. "Outsiders" telling us what to do. "Damn Liberals" "What are you, a commie?" "If you would only find Jesus"

And it doesn't matter how nice you are...if you suggest a single thought that runs contrary to a false premise they've based their entire belief system on...forget it. I'm not talking religion either.

"Iraq had no WMD" (You traitor! You hate America!) Never mind how factual the statement is..."Iraq didn't attack America" (You hate the troops!) Never mind my husband served in Iraq and well, Iraq didn't attack America in point of fact.



Dialogue? Maybe.....but take baby steps...cause too much sends the southern right winger into an apoplectic spewing of vitriol.