So, thanks to DU and Google, I think I'm winning!

[johnaries]

At work, we have some friendly little email debates between myself, 2 other Liberals (who just like to read, mostly), a Conservative (who admits outside of the debates that he's not really THAT Conservative, he just likes to stir the pot for fun), a Libertarian who hates Bush and a Libertarian who likes Bush.

Most of the dialog is between myself and the Lib Who Supports Bush. Unfortunately, the LWSB is so much against taxation, he's gulped down a lot of Bush's kool-aid because of the "tax reform".

He keeps hitting me with the Neo-Con definition of Liberal and Progressive :wtf:, and I keep telling him that it's not a true definition: that's it's Neo-Con propaganda. Then he hit me with the Neo-Liberal label. Anyway, thank to DU's Demopedia, Wikipedia, and Google I believe I was able to cut through some of the kool-aid induced haze.

We also got into the value of Government-supported social programs vs. private charity programs. Apparently, neither the Lib Supporting Bush nor the Lib Who Hates Bush had ever heard of "the working poor".

Thanks to sources that I mostly got from previous posts here on DU,along with some Googled references, I think their eyes are starting to open. :bounce:

That's what I love about DU. I don't have to reference anyone directly to DU (although I do sometimes), DU gives me the outside references that I can direct people to who might be a little skeptical of anything they read on a site named "Democratic Underground".

Also, just WATCHING some of the flame wars :spank: helps me hone my own debating skills (well, that didn't work the way you wanted, did it? I won't do that. Oooh! Touche! That had to hurt! I have to remember that!)

Thank you to Skinner and all the DU mods, but most of all thank you to all of the DU members who enjoy real, honest debate!

:yourock:

[Lefta Dissenter]

1. Hey,

I've got my Libertarian boss headed back toward his Liberal roots. Just another few months... :evilgrin:

[Lone Pawn]

2. It wasn't neoconservatives who created the words

"liberal" and "progressive"...or even defined them. While looking up his misuse of the word neoliberal, you really ought have looked up neoconservative as well. Those operatives who have framed the debate are not neoconservatives, they are employees of neoconservatives.

[applegrove]

4. the GOP and perhaps the neocons were responsible for making

Liberal a bad word. You throw that in their faces the moment they start squealing about vocab. Just say:"you guys made liberal a bad word.. and that is my word - what is this about me not using the word neocon if it works".

The neocons themselves did not want to be called anything. They keep playing the race card to keep from being identified. Really they would like to remain nameless and just rule the world and get credit when things go their way and blame Turkey or France when their Utopian plans go awry.

Really - get out a political science text and see how the words are defined. I think neo-liberal is the scientific word for neocon.

And just remind them, that if they want to be rule makers.. setting up one set of rules for you to follow and living by another set themselves (they ruined the world liberal that did not even belong to them) that BTK was a rule maker that didn't follow the rules (he enforced zoning & lawn bylaws in an exacting fashion all day long while he had already murdered a few families). That One set of rules for them and demanding their opposition follow another set.. well that is what sociopaths do. So point out their hypocrisy. The will also try and get you to believe 20th Century fascism had nothing to do with the right wing (they claim fascism is right wing). That is bullshit too. Overwhelmingly, the communists were totalitarians Utopians and the right wing were the fascists (Germany, South America).

But in these awful times when they will try and dance you outside of yourself. So good to go to the library and read the chapter in a textbook on the definition of Liberal vs. Neocon Vs. Conservative. You cannot trust the internet to give you clear answers. Look for a book on world politics since world politics label things a little different (and more consistent) than American political books do.

Keep in mind that with the exception of Cuba today, we are all mixed market economies and Liberal Democracies in the West. So even the Republicans are a Liberal democracy party. Liberal means open to trade. And everyone in the world is these days.

[Lone Pawn]

10. I think you're a bit confused as well.

Neocons have long used the label neoconservative--since before we called them those. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/000tzmlw.asp

Neoconservatives are not quite neoliberals.

Neoconservatives proper:
1. Aggressive moralist stance on foreign policy.
2. Some social conservativism.
3. Some rejection of small-government.
4. Acceptance of the welfare state.

Neoliberals proper.
1. Free trade.
2. No government influence in economy.

[applegrove]

15. Sorry - I meant to say that Neocons try & teach that fascism is never

right wing. A little mistake in my last post.

Neoconservatives proper:

1. Aggressive moralist stance on foreign policy. to fight in places so that scorched earth policies will let Corporations step in and replace all welfare policies (No government influence in economy). And as to moralist invasions? Well a whole bunch of democracies are cutting up the world rather than allowing evil things like Islamist fundies from creating a unified Middle East. But people like Huge in Venezuela are not doing anyting undemocratic.. just anti elitist. So they are enemies too. And there is propaganda there too. Look at Bolton creaming his employees because they refused to find that Cuba was going to attack the USA or be an iminent danger. All the while Darfur is not touched. So far smoke & mirrors often. .

2. Some social conservatism.so that the welfare & the social needs are taken care of in a tribal way and not through government policy - so that liberalism can be undone and customary law will rule - a marriage of convenience for now..neocons had to get elected somehow.. they don't believe themselves in one hint of bible..they just see religious hierarchies as controlling things like the vote and the morality and narrow lives that no government programs will force for the people - someone has to pick up some of the pieces when the poor start to starve and die (and the middle class start to join the poor. Class warfare between the two can errupt when the elites stop paying taxes completely and the middle class find themselves buckling under paying all the taxes (for the roads where corporations drive their trucks - WHERE IS THE GAS TAX! Vat Tax replacing income tax will ensure that all illegal maids pay their taxes but that the rich 'dissappear'. And then between the class warfare, the desperation of poverty, the religious attacking their neighbours lives, people will be so busy snipping at each other and jockying for petty power or people's morals.. that nobody can get together long enough to vote a plurality or majority in the democratic fashion we are used to. Also, the undoing of empathy and its replacement with empathy only for people exactly like you (the end of the enlightenment) where good information is not imparted.. only ads by corporations. Ads for corporations are also the only place outside of a church where 'good' emotion is allowed to come into play..to use such emotion in a court case, or in a human interest story on the news, against a bad corporations is evil - BUT WATCH THEIR ADS WHERE THE DADDY COMES HOME AND PLAYES WITH HIS KID!

3. Some rejection of small-government.the neocons just got hoodwinked by the religious right with Terry Schiavo because the religious right got them into power and then the neocons refused to implement on any of the issues.. so the religious right is morphing one conservative policy (small government) to make itself feel powerful and less like chumps. The neocons meanwhile are doing their damnedest to bankrupt the federal government and 'break the back of the beast'. Then corporate schools, corporate news, corporate health, corporate retirement, corporate life is infused everywhere. And humans have no right to put a public good into the market (like environmental laws). According to the Utopia, the environmental polluters will be put out of business... I guess that means fewer customers but I don't exactly want to think about that. Perhaps we can all be on corporate cancer pills in the last half of our lives!!

4. Acceptance of the welfare state.the neocons have plans for people to be so poor that they 1) join the army 2) labor migration happens out of the USA to get rid of undesirables and excess people who want to be employed. Same as in the 19th Century when Britain said bye bye to Scots & Irish.


Neoliberals proper.

1. Free trade.

2. No government influence in economy.in time, the neocon 'democracies & local customary law will weaken federal governments & of course the UN etc. So that nobody is bigger or more powerful than the corporations and no government intervention will take place that could touch a corporations market (as in preventive health care or enough welfare to live on).


I believe that it is the neoliberal doctrine and the perpetual wars that will make the world the neoliberal one. Where corporations are supreme and human need is met at a local level. For now the neocons just associate with the religious right because it helps to get them elected, it helps to undo national liberalism, it creates tribalism which is good for corporations (when the tribes get together that is democracy and the elites, also a tribe, get taken down).

Neoliberal are what the neocons are. This association with the religious right is only until the government has been so bankrupted that all social programs are rolled away and people get nothing from the federal government and learn to hate it. Then the power resides in the hands of the corporations who decide what government programs are needed (an army if it is not yet private). And rules protecting he domain of each tribal leader & their power. Then the corporations can really pull down the rest of the world's social programs by playing people off against each other.. as capital flight does now.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. Good points on the Liberal word

They've made it bad but we have to take it back and make it good again. I call these people what they are: facists. Sometimes I call them neocons but most of the time facists because that's what they are.

[johnaries]

6. I've hit him with the PNAC website 3 times now,

The first time was in response to a statement that was clearly against the PNAC agenda, and he clearly disagreed with it but sort of blew it off as a "radical" website, and nothing to be really concerned with. He's against American Imperialism.

This time, he asked why I equated the neo-con movement with "evil imperialism" and this time I sent back the PNAC Mission Statement webpage with Cheney's, Rumsfeld's, Jeb Bush's, and John Forbes signatures highlighted.

He never responded to that one. The only thing I can think of is "ummm, the Truth is a Bitch! - ain't it?".

[Lone Pawn]

9. Me? I think you confuse me with someone else.

I've always recognized the importance of PNAC to the neoconservative movement--to ignore it or be ignorant of it is almost impossible. And they're obviously imperialist. They admit to being imperialist.

You know, the Cthulu avatar isn't uncommon. Perhaps you're a bit confused.

[johnaries]

11. No! Not you! I'm sorry, I meant the Libertarian at work!

Sorry for the confusion! the odd thing is that at first he just sort of "blew them off" as a fringe group, but as I keep pounding home that this "fringe group" is now in charge of the government he keeps trying to ingnore it.

[Lone Pawn]

12. Oh, jeez, I'm sorry.

My mistake.

[applegrove]

16. Truth really is a bitch and what they fight against every day. They

will always try and end an open discussion with one manner of insults to your argument or some such thing.

Look at Rice's response to the Bolton crisis: she just stands there and says "well we have taken your concerns in and allowed you to look at the nomination and let you have some information - so vote already". A complete act on her part. Not giving an inch. Not responding to the reality of the questions have come up. A complete ACT. Not acknowledging the reality of what has been discussed at all. Completely denying the open discussion and the need for more information.

[KoKo]

3. DU is a great resource plus if you need help within a few minutes DU

posters will give you links if you are in a battle and need a link to support you. I just got help with four posts when I was in a flame war over the weekend and needed links to Barbara Boxer's letter saying Condi not releasing Bolton Info was AGAINST THE CONSTITUION. I had lost the links and DU'ers gave me mucho info.

It's a great resource, plus our own search and Google, too.

[johnaries]

8. What a great point! I've never posted on DU asking for help

during a debate, but you're right! As good as I think I am with search engine's and finding what I want on the Web, there are so many folks here who have probably read about exactly the point I'm trying to make and have it at their fingertips, without having to do a Major Search!

I've been "doing battle" on my own up until now, but I'll be using the DU resource more than ever in the future!

[BrklynLiberal]

5. I cannot believe how much I have learned here...and how much I continue

to learn evey day. It is a wonderful resource...in addition to all the other great things DU provides.

:grouphug:

[johnaries]

7. AMEN! (and I'm not even religious!). DU allows for honest

debate. Something that our Founding Fathers believed in, but something that some politicians are trying to eliminate.

[MisterP]

17. quite right!

[FreedomAngel82]

13. That's great!

I'm glad for you. DU helps me too with being in the know and help with debate's and everything. Keep it up! Here's to you! :toast: