Does anyone here have a problem with Pope having served in Hitler Youth?

[Taverner]

Yep...Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler Youth as a child, and also served in the German army during WW2.

Question, does anyone else have serious problems with this?

Sure sure, I his argument is that he was forced to do it...Dietrich Bonhoeffer was forced to swear allegiance to Hitler too, but he DIDN'T. That is what faith is all about...

[aeolian]

1. This is, like, sooooo last week.

:)

[Taverner]

2. Yeah I know

But I just heard about it now...

I've been absent from DU for a while...sue me!

[aeolian]

4. Beginning litigation procedures...please stand by...

:)

just kidding around.

:toast:

[Guckert]

3. NO, God must not have entered his life until after the ovens stopped cooki

ng. They were Jews, right??? :sarcasm:

The church has a long history of killing so why not the young pope.

[Scurrilous]

13. Ratzinger first entered the seminary...

...in 1939. Is that when "the ovens stopped cooking?"

[Az]

5. Its not that he was a member

I can well understand that many were swept up in that terrible time. But what troubles me is his current explanation that he didn't have a choice. Of course he had a choice. Resistance happened. Of course there were consequences to this resistance. But well I am just going to have to throw it out there: What would Jesus do?

Here he is stepping into the roll of leader of 1billion+ Catholics and he doesn't use this as an opportunity to say he made a mistake. Instead he proclaims he didn't have a choice. Is this the message he can best represent to a world beset with hatred and prejudice to this day. That when pressed into a hate filled machine its best just to go along because you don't really have a choice?

[Village Idiot]

14. You are absolutely correct.

My father and four elder brothers lived in Germany throughout the 1930s and early 40s...

None of them joined the HJ or Pioneers, even though attendance was technically mandatory...

[flordehinojos]

15. could it be that he is being honest in his explanation that at the time

and from his point of view he didn't have a choice?

HE HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS which has previously been posted as,
[e-mail]

perhaps you could ask him what he means by the fact that he had no choice but to join the hitler youth when, at the time, resistance was happening and many were joining it.

and while you are it you might want to ask him about whatever other troubling questions about him you may have.

i hope that if they do answer--they will give you a real answer and not just a canned answer like we often get from our own senators and representatives when we write to them.

if i have posted the wrong e-mail address for the pope, i hope someone else can post the correct one.

:-)

[Az]

23. I think my point still stands

I am not suggesting that he should be held accountable for his actions at that time. I tend to allow a person to define themself as they are at this moment. I may consider what happened in their past but they are free to show me who they are today.

But that gets to the crux of this problem. He has the chance today to proclaim his actions as a youth to be misguided and shortsighted. To not stand up against the hatred the Nazi's represented is to give in to it and enable it. We face just such hatred today. To not use this opportunity to raise people's awareness of not bending to such monstrous behavior just seems lacking in someone that proposes to be the moral compass of 1billion+ people.

Even so I will not judge him solely on this issue. But the stuff is accumulating.

[flordehinojos]

33. okay, i am not really sure where he is not standing up to naziism, but

this is what i heard him say yesterday,

yesterday i heard the words of a man opening himself up to personal, philosophical and theological growth.

I also heard the words of a man who knows he cannot do all this growing by himself and kindly asks for Spirit and people's prayers to guide him in the task of doing so.

I also heard the words of a man who said that the papacy is not about promulgating his own ideas, but about seeking truth and added that truth without love is false, or meaningless and that LOVE without truth is empty.

I also heard the words of a man who addressed the evil of POWER without truth which is willing to corrupt and kill and lie just so as to have power AND I WONDERED WHAT JEB BUSH WHO WAS SITTING IN THAT AUDIENCE MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT BECAUSE THE WORDS TO ME FELT LIKE POPE BENNY MIGHT HAVE BEEN ADDRESSING, AMONG OTHERS, BUT VERY DIRECTLY THE DOINGS OF GEORGE W. BUSH AND OF HIS LYING, CHEATING GOVERNMENT...not to mention JEB'S OWN LYING, CHEATING, STATE GOVERNMENT.

I heard the words too of a man who sees and says that there are many empties in men's, women's and children's lives today. The empties of poverty, of broken love and broken promises, the emptiness of wars, the emptiness of a people without hope ...

I heard the words of a man who knows the pulse of the people and who did not miss a beat...

and yes, granted, POPE'S BENNY views of human sexuality are of the antiquated theological kind, "PRETEND SEXUALITY DOES NOT EXIST" ...
but then ... in his search for truth and growth and guidance from the SPIRIT and with the help of PEOPLE'S PRAYERS ... pope benny might open himself up to further grownt on this matter.

(and just as i was typing this and for whatever the symbolism of it might be worth to anyone... one of the local neighborhood doves keeps fluttering outside my window trying to come inside) ...

may the SPIRIT take POPE BENNY BY THE HAND AND GUIDE HIM IN THIS JOURNEY OF PHILOSOPHICAL, THEOLOGICAL AND PERSONAL GROWTH.



fightingeldress

(i had posted this thought in another thread yesterday--but have copied it here again for you because what i heard pope benny say yesterday was his way of standing up to the evils of power for the sake of power which governments and heads of state use to committ crimes against men and against humanity, he said. to me that sounded like a denouncing of naziism.)

[Az]

41. I gladdly take that into consideration as well

As I said his explanation of his youth is a concern. He is not the same person he was then. I do not hold that against him. His current words concerning that time carry a tinge of concern.

I have to say though that his positions concerning homosexuals concern me. But so to does his attitude towards atheists. He didn't just single out homosexuals.

One of my hot buttons is those that promote the notion that atheists are immoral. He seems to be leaning that way. Its understandable if the leader of a religious institution claims that he thinks atheists are wrong. We happen to think he is wrong about the existance of God too. But when he suggests that we are immoral or worse ... well then it changes the dynamic.

I will continue to maintain an open mind towards Pope Benny. Just as long as he maintains an open mind towards me. I take to heart the notion that the followers of Jesus treat others as they wish to be treated themself.

[Kerrytravelers]

17. This is something I had noticed, too.

It would have much improved him image to have stated that he regrets what heppened in his country. That he was a terified young boy of 14 and that feeling forced and trapped into something so wrong is something no one should ever have to experience. To be forced to live under such facism and hate, to have the views of others dictate your life is wrong. That would have resonated with many Catholics around the world who live under those conditions- including us under the *bots.

Again, I just think this guy isn't the one to lead the church. I was gravely disappointed when it was he who stepped onto the balcony. Old subject, dead horse or not, this is someone we are going to forced to content with since there is a rabid fundy movement occuring in the Catholic faith driving many former Democratic Catholics to allign with rethugs and with *.

[freedom_to_read]

6. Jeez enough already

We all know this. Some of us care. Some of us don't.

Horse = long dead. Stop beating.

[dsc]

7. Was Bonhoeffer 14 and threatened with execution of his parents?

There are many, many, many legitimate issues upon which to attack Ratzinger, this isn't one.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

31. No

No more than Hillary having been a Goldwater girl is a peek into hers. His life speaks for itself, without the Hitler Youth thing.

[bperci108]

8. Yeah, but.....

As far as I know, membership was mandatory if you were male and under 18.

I don't think he had much say in the matter. :(

Still, it looks really bad for the RCC.

[JackRiddler]

9. I have no problems with it

I do not expect 14-year-olds to be revolutionaries, especially not in Germany in 1942. I am not going to attack R. for not being Dietrich Bonhoeffer; it would be like attacking your average person, activist even, for not being MLK.

To his credit, Ratzinger later deserted, which even if it was in 1945 is still more than the VAST MAJORITY of Germans did.

Why are there at least three "Hitler Youth" threads for every "Grand Inquisitor" thread?

UNTIL LAST WEEK RATZINGER WAS THE GRAND INQUISITOR!

Isn't that enough for you to hang your critique on?

He hangs with Opus Dei, a fascist organization within the Church.

That makes what the boy did rather irrelevant, doesn't it?

THe Hitler Youth accusation is a distraction that polarizes many people who would be repelled by the real facts away from reason.

[KansDem]

11. If he showed up for duty, that would put him way ahead of Bush

But this whole smarmy episode makes me apprehensive along with:
1. Pope as former Nazi;
2. Prescott Bush has Hitler financier;
3. George H W Bush as spy and "bystander" in Dallas on 11/22/63;
4. George W Bush as figurehead for PNAC;
5. Neal Bush has former business partner with Pope;
6. Jeb Bush has Governor of Florida, the state that gave election of 2000 to brother;
7. Several "retreads" for Reagan/Bush and Bush/Qualye administrations now in Bush/Cheney administrations;
8. Diebold-enhanced elections;
etc. etc. etc.

:scared:

[stanwyck]

12. I do.

The Pope is a symbol. Personally, he's a man who has done much good in his lifetime. But he is a symbol. And the Catholic Church should be aware of their regrettable history concerning their treatment of the Jewish people during World War II.
I am not Catholic or Jewish, just a lapsed Presbyterian. But I recognize the power of the Pope as representative of the Catholic Church.
To me, this selection showed a lack of empathy to the world.
There were other choices. And it's time for the Catholic Church to consider someone other than another European.
Yes, he was young and under extreme pressure. But what we do in life does matter. There are consequences.
And the consequences here should be that being a member of the Hitler Youth means you do not become Pope.

[Taverner]

21. "And the consequences here should be that being a member of the...

...Hitler Youth means you do not become Pope."

Love that quote!

[Fenris]

16. I have a bigger problem with what he's done in his adult life.

[JNelson6563]

18. Not really

He was a kid, he had no choice. I can imagine what it was like. He as also in a rural area, much harder to hide than in a big city. By all accounts he was no zealous Nazi youth but a nobody R&F kid like millions of others. I can imagine how hard it was in those days.

One has to believe the basest of instincts, survival, was in action all the time for many.

Lsatly, this has been discussed to death! What is your purpose in posting this "discussion"?

Julie

[Taverner]

28. My purpose is to call into question decisions made by

A man who is considered by the Catholic Church "the step between man and God."

Simply put, the man should be Christlike, wouldn't you agree? Would Jesus have joined the Hitler Youth? Even if he was "forced"?

I don't bash Catholics, but I fear some of the Catholics here are catching the "false Persecution complex from the Fundies.

Look - NO ONE IS PERSECUTING YOU!!!! WE JUST DON'T LIKE THE POPE, AND BEING JEWISH THE HITLER YOUTH ANGLE IS A BIT SCARY!!!

I mean at least Arnold went out of his way to disassociate himself from his father's legacy. So say what you will about Arnold, call him irresponsible but he is no Nazi.

Ratzinger, on the other hand, was at one time a Nazi and he has not apologized.

[Scurrilous]

34. Boy...

...you have been away. You missed all the Pope was/wasn't a Nazi threads also.

[leftofthedial]

19. apparently, here on DU

The catholics don't and nearly everyone else does.

[Bridget Burke]

20. No.

Some statements & actions as an adult are more worrying.

Check some of the 5 dozen threads on this subject from last week & get back to us.

[radwriter0555]

22. He wasn't forced to do it. He had a choice; his family had a choice.

There was no forcing.

It's a cop out. He pulled a bush. He enlisted, then didn't show up.

[Misunderestimator]

24. I have a problem with anyone having served in the Hitler Youth...

especially someone of his power and influence.

[Kathryn7]

25. No problem. Hiltler Youth was child abuse.

[Toucano]

26. That's the least of my problems with the Pope. n/t

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gollygee]

29. The thing I think is weird

is that I thought the theory was that it was predetermined by God that he would be pope? Like when he was born, it was already decided he'd be pope someday and the "election of cardinals" is supposed to be more following through with God's decision than electing themselves? Maybe I'm misunderstanding this as I'm not Catholic . . .

*If* I understand that correctly, then I don't understand why God wouldn't have chosen one of the few people who would resist. Or why God would choose someone who wouldn't have a choice but to join an evil organization. I mean, God had other choices, right?

[KharmaTrain]

30. This Jew Doesn't Care

Just like the other popes in my lifetime (5 and counting), what they say, do, think or anything has zero impact on my life. It's like watching a TV show that you have no real interest in, but it's the only thing on to watch.

When I was younger I met a man with a tatoo on his arm. I had met many Holocoust survivors growing up near Skokie, Illinois and having parents who were very involved in helping these people. However, this man was unique. He wasn't Jewish, he was Catholic. He said he was born Catholic and had been hauled into the camps since his parents had offended a local Nazi official and they were all deported to consentration camps.

He was probably the same age as Ratzinberger (this was over 20 years ago this meeting happened) and also served as a prison guard for the last 2 years of the war. He told a group of us the horrors he saw as people starved in front of his eyes or were taken out and beaten just for the kicks of it. This revolted him and he bonded with many of the Jewish captors he was forced to guard. After the war, he came to the U.S., married a Jewish woman and settled with other Holocoust survivors. He never converted to Judiasm, and remained proud of his faith, but he also shared a unique experience with other survivors that made him, IMHO, as much a victim as those he was guarding.

While I don't agree with what I've read about Ratzinberger's politics...again, it means little to me, since a majority of these issues have no impact in my world. However I find calling him a Nazi for being forced into that ugly war at 14 years of age is not like a Kurt Waldheim or even a Prescott Bush, who voluntarily joined the Nazis.

I still do have issues with the Catholic Church for still stonewalling on disclosing both the involvement of Pius with Nazis and Fascists during WWII and the events surrounding his selection in 1939. Also, the established, but never admitted Vatican bank connections to the Oddessa network that helped Nazi war criminals escape to Argentina and other countries after the war and then was used to funnel money to these people. If Ratzinberger opens up the files on this chapter of history, then he will have done a good thing.

[stanwyck]

35. Very interesting perspective

by the way, are you old enough to remember when the American Nazi party wanted to march in Skokie?
(I grew up "down state"...you know, that area of prairie where you can watch your dog run away for three days)

[noamnety]

32. He was still a teenager when he deserted in 1945

So I'll cut him some slack there.

However, it's quite troubling that he seems to support some of the Nazi platform - homophobia, fascism (aka infallibility).

I would rather have someone who fought without deserting, and now has had a complete change of heart, rather than someone who deserted but appears to still hold to some of their philosophies.

[peacetalksforall]

36. You should check out the commendations from the Anti-Defamation

League and some other Holocaust organizations...they have praised him for efforts later in his life.

Perhaps all the Nazi youth stuff is less important than his current policies on Catholic rules and how he will rule in the future. Will he promote Bush and the cabal/PNAC?

[Goldmund]

37. No, but I have a problem with pretty much everything else about him...

By the way, did you know that the Inquisitorial Church was on the side of reason, while Galileo was against it?

[Discord]

38. Yes. Among other things that have been discussed

to death already on the boards.

but the short answer is a most difinitave... Yes!

[Lone Pawn]

39. Welcome to last week's obsession! Glad you could make it!

For your next post, I hear there's this really interesting case down in Florida involving some lady named Terri Schiavo. Why don't you tell us your opinion on her?

[arwalden]

40. Yes. It Troubles Me Very Much...

... it also troubles me that so many people are willing to make excuses for it (as they are willing to make excuses for so many other things he has done or said).

I was amused at Bill Maher's monologue joke where the punch line included the phrase "... the first pope to say Heil Mary" (or something like that)

[Cleita]

42. When I was a young woman there was an influx of

young German immigrants that I came into contact with in the decades of the sixties while living and working in Southern California. Those my age were toddlers, when the war ended, but many of the older ones had been in Hitler's Youth.

Yes, it was required for them to belong. They were propagandized while they were able to participate in athletic events, hikes, parties and other things kids like to do. Since the war had not touched them on their own soil until the invasion, many weren't aware of anything being wrong.

Since part of the purpose of Hitler's Youth was to have built in moles to spy on their parents, very little discouragement for participating was given by parents to their children. They were afraid to.

So, Ratzi gets a pass from me on this one. There are so many other things to be critical of, particularly considering he wasn't an adult at this time and not in charge of what or where he went or what he did.

[Moderator]

43. Locking....

This is flamebait.



DU Moderator