'Reaching Out' to the bornagains is a total waste of time

[mopaul]

you can't reason with them, and you can't meet them halfway. they want it ALL, even if it means blood in the streets.

screw reaching out to them, appeasing them, calming them down, i'm fighting them.

[Taxloss]

1. Hear hear.

They see people who want to "engage" with them as potential converts. They respect no intellectual, ethical, or spiritual boundaries. They will kill.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

2. Force

It's the only thing they understand.

Confronting the Judicial War on Faith

[Racenut20]

3. I just ignore or scoff them.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. And that's the problem

That's what we have been doing for 30 years which allowed them to get to where they are today.

[Racenut20]

43. I doubt that

I am more inclined to link where they are today to nominating candidates like Kerry, Dukakis, Gore.

[NickofTime]

9. They're All Nuts!

The only answer to those Crazy Christians: Islam

[Bridget Burke]

5. Are all "born again" Christians the same?

One can be Evangelical and/or Fundamentalist & still not want to control the government. And Charismatic is a style of worship--perhaps too emotional for extremely WASPish types--but it is not a need to dominate public affairs.

The Dominionists & Christian Reconstructionists are quite dangerous but you need to know the players before you make blanket condemnations. Theocracy Watch is a good place to start.

www.theocracywatch.org/relig_inst.htm

[Demit]

19. Just a caution: you don't have to be an "extremely WASPy type" to

be turned off by a sect's style of worship. Ethnic non-Protestants can be too. Like me.

No need, BB, in protesting being stereotyped, to sling around more stereotypes.

[Bridget Burke]

20. The Charismatic Movement is often mentioned....

When Evangelicals & Fundamentalists are discussed. The Charismatic style of worship springs from old style Pentacostalism, with a strong African-American influence. There are Roman Catholic Charismatics.

Whatver your personal taste, the Charismatic movement is not political. In fact, the Dominionists distrust the movement because it tends toward the ecumenical.

[Just Me]

31. We should target the power-mongering brainwashers,....

,...not the innocent/ignorant brainwashees.

Yes? :bounce:

I mean, isn't this really about another handful of people abusing their influence and power (dominionists/reconstructionists, neoCONs, corporocrats)? Isn't that what we're fighting against: abuses by pockets of people forming "cults" which are extreme?

We're fighting the extremists who have gained enough power to force their image and agenda into the public eye.

IMHO.

[mopaul]

32. falwell, dobson, bauer, robertson, fred phelps, kristol, rice, bush

many of the generals are bornagains, many use biblical terminology when speaking of the war. it just takes a few loudmouth crazies to get the crazy followers worked up. rush, frist, we know who the fuckers are, and they should be targeted.

[wakeme2008]

6. Right Look to Ireland

Both sides are killing for their "God".

and the bornagains do not care if gas is $5.00 per gal. as long as Gays do not get to marry.

Too many other groups to target.

IMHO.... :)

[liberal N proud]

7. I have known this for some time.

I will piss one of them off once and a while just to ruin his day.

[KlatooBNikto]

8. I have some born again relatives who are incapable of any reasoned

thought processes.For a long time they have been telling me and my wife that because we do not attend church or believe in organized religions of any kind we are destined for ---ll.Ironically all our seven children have turned out well without having religious nonsense shoved down their throats by their parents.I even believe that it is the absence of religious quackery in our home that contributed to their development as independent thinking adults.

So, yes, we do not need to cater to these nutcakes.They are in a world all by themselves.Their aim is to control other people.They will resort to the Bible or Koran or whatever else is handy.

[mopaul]

10. me too

my mom and dad and brother were reborn 33 years ago with no signs of letting up.

[KlatooBNikto]

11. Wonder if Jeff Gannon/Guckert is a born again prostitute in the WH?

That would explain a lot of things to me.

[LiberalEsto]

21. That makes you the "unborn,"

so they should be extra-nice to you and protect you....

[mopaul]

23. good point, i'll steal that one.....n/t

[DebJ]

12. I changed the mind of a bornagain, by providing him with facts

AND bible quotes (Matt 25).

[mopaul]

13. you're lucky or very skilled

some can be reached of course. but not my relatives.

[xchrom]

14. i have them in my family

there's no living with them.
none.
they don't want peace.

[mopaul]

15. mine too

no amount of bible quoting, reasoning, reading the beatitudes, nothing can get through to them to show them their blindness.

like you, i've been trying for 33 years to steer my relatives off the zealot path.

[BiggJawn]

16. I had the same thought, Mopaul.

I'm NOT a "Deprogrammer", I have NO skill in working with the brain-washed.

Oh, and before you get your voice up to full-whine mode about me "bashing" what you believe, ask yourself this:

"Do I agree with Bill Frist and Jim Dobson?"

You don't? Then this doesn't apply to you.

[Career Prole]

17. The "born-agains" believe they're heaven-bound

just because they say they believe.

They believe any heinous crime they commit will carry no penalty in the after-life. They believe they have teflon souls.

There's no more stick, just carrots.

They'll never go back to belief in a God who would have the gall to hold them accountable for their sins.

You're absolutely right...they are a lost cause. :shrug:

[arwalden]

18. As Usual... You're Right On Target With Your Observations.

Particularly when it comes to fundamentalists and other zealot religionists. Anyone who tries to engage them is a potential convert. The mere act of criticizing them, scorning their actions, or even contradicting them only serves to convince them that they are the "persecuted victims" and therefore they are right. Facts be damned!

Any evidence, no matter how logical or convincing, is dismissed by them. Attempts to make peace, establish a balance, engage in reasonable thoughtful discourse is often seen as a weakness.

The worst of them are truly the most VILE and bigoted individuals you'll ever come across. Those are the ones who USE their religion as a shield to justify their bigotry and their hatred.

[Az]

22. Don't fight them

Not directly anyway. Oh of course oppose them in the polls and such. But you are not going to gain any ground by bringing down an occaisional fundie or two.

Instead realise what has changed. Realise that the real battle is for the heart and mind of America. Society.

When people gather together and form societies the comings and goings and complex relationships require a infrastructure in which to be played out. Unless something is placed in this position a sort of vacuum forms and nature abhoring a vacuum will drag something into that function.

Our society is a complex thing. We are made of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds. In most cases our beliefs and cultures were formed initially in relatively static monolithic societies. As such our diverse society sends such systems for a loop. Thus the infrastructute that best suits us (and other increasingly diverse societies) is one based on tolerance, inclusiveness, and communication. Post Modernism.

Post Modernism postulates that there is no one true path. All voices have a say in the process. Through communication and dialog the various sides should come to understand one another and through this be able to create a more enlightened society. This is what is supposed to be filling our social infrastructute.

But something happened. First off the basic assumption of Post Modernism is that everyone is bascially equally wrong. By postulating that no one position is true it must follow that everyone is equally wrong. But this doesn't hit people as quite correct. I mean people don't go around believing things because they believe they are somewhat wrong. People believe things because they believe they are right.

So this created a bit of a disconnect. As a result people tend to gravitate towards people who share cultural values similar to theirs. They isolate themself within these groups. This causes a break down of dialog between the various sides. And this is the vital component of the Post Modern system that enabled it to work.

Thus with the failure of this infrastructure the vacuum returns. Into this void came pouring the voices of these various groups that had dropped out of the social dialog. Instead of trying to find a way to work together with other positions they returned to the center to place their infrastructure over the objections of everyone else. They had discarded the remains of the social contract and have decided that their views alone should dominate society.

Directly fighting them merely creates social chaos that is likely to lead to open conflict. Instead what must be done is the vacuum in the center must be filled with open dialog and an honest attempt from various sources to try to find a way to build a better society with each other instead of upon each other.

When reasoned voices come together from differing views and find a consensus they will drive the singular voice of the fundamentalists from the light and back into the darkness. When people want to get along with other people of differing beliefs and ways there is little the voice from the religious right can do. It takes all the steam out of their rhetoric. It completely disarms them. It eliminates the need to fight them.

[mopaul]

24. good luck with that

and i appreciate your reasoned approach, and thoughtful contributions. i wish i could be more centered like you, but i'm too passionate about it, and it's infected my parents and brother for 33 yrs. with no sign of letting up.

i'm telling you az, i've tried every trick in the book, including all the ones you've mentioned. it didn't work.

[Az]

25. Dealing with individuals vs society is very different

But both take a lot of time if you mean to bring about change in a peaceful manner.

Realise this. Belief is emotional. To overturn belief requires a stronger emotional weight countering the initial belief. There are a couple of ways this can come about. If you wish the individual to come about without too much undo stress its going to take time to build up a large number of opposing beliefs and the emotional reliance on them. If you want to do it fast its going to hurt. We are talking trama. Ever seen a person go through a crisis of faith? Its not something I would wish on an enemy let alone a loved one.

If you want to meddle with your loved one's beliefs then the route to take is to positively build reliance on a variety of positions that counter the beliefs in the periphery. A direct assault will not work. And its going to take time and love.

[etherealtruth]

26. Well stated ....

... As my Jesuit educated father always says, "Everybody's crazy." (it was a reference to people's behavior in groups---any groups). I was able to grow up believing that everyone was equally right and equally wrong. My kids are growing up with the same attitude (important for them as their parents were raised in 2 very different world religions).

It is important to not that the RIGHT WING fundies are behind the anti intellectualism in America for good reason.

[Dob Bole]

27. I'm a "born again" Christian...

so I of course disagree. I had a thread once where I answered every conceivable question that people had about my evangelical faith. If you'd like to read it, here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=111&topic_id=29899&mesg_id=29899

[mopaul]

28. don't need to read it, know it by heart

you are obviously on our side here, so i won't mess with you unless you mess with me.

obviously, you yourself can be dealt with and reasonable, or you wouldn't be here.

i guess maybe i offended you? didn't mean to, and i just can't think of a nicer way to word it. i am referring of course to the asshole bornagains, like the ones i know personally. the one's who threaten our union.

[Dob Bole]

33. not offended...

I just think that your post is misplaced aggression. To say that born again Christians are a waste of time is to say that many Southern Democrats are a waste of time, or blacks are a waste of time. For some reason this statement is acceptable, whereas "dirty Jews are a waste of time" would not be on DU. Oh well.

I do understand that you didn't intend all of that, though. And I am impressed that you know my thread by heart. :)

[mopaul]

34. i said 'reaching out to them' is a waste of time

i myself am a born again christian, in 1967, when i was 16. i know it all by heart because i've been through it personally.

and i know that it is a waste of time to reach out to the assholes, because i've been doing it with my own parents and brother for 33 years.

i stand by my point brother/sister

[Dob Bole]

38. Point taken.

I'll probably never convince my father, because his father died during the Carter administration and he remembers it as hard times. A lot of people are stuck in their ways, but a lot of people don't know that you can be a liberal AND an evangelical, either. My efforts haven't been totally worthless, and I've brought a few people over.

There are plenty of progressive evangelicals, and potential progressive evangelicals out there. I don't think there's a single Republican in my church. The problem is that, since we put our money where our mouth is, we don't have the vast propoganda outlets that the RW has.

[mopaul]

42. oddly enough, my folks are die hard life long democrats

but my brother is a died in the wool rush limbaugh zombie republican bush lover.

[Az]

35. He is angry

He has a lot to be angry about. He feels religious fanaticism has cost him a lot. He feels as though he has lost his family to it. Its rather disconcerting.

Yes he could target his anger better but that doesn't mean the anger isn't still there. I think this is probably where the most difficult aspect of a diverse society comes into play. When someone is angry we need to come to their aid and help them deal with their anger. But that includes even those that are unjustly struck by their anger as well. Its a difficult task. But if you support progressive ideals that would seem to be the path you have chosen.

Anger is real. Believers can feel it towards skeptics just as skeptics can feel it towards believers. I just happen to think its better to deal with the anger on both sides rather than using the weakness anger creates in a person to blast them between the eyes (not suggesting this is what you did).

[Az]

29. Belief need not interfer with the ability to see reason in governance

The problem isn't belief itself. Rather it is belief leveraging a political view. Just because you share some beliefs with other Born Again Chrisitans does not mean you share their political sense that their religious views must be made law.

Unfortunately because the religious rights political views are religiously motivated the taint of their political ambitions blows back onto their religious views. And anyone that shares a similar claim may be caught unjustly in the blast.

[Double T]

30. I Have Always Found That If You Have To Go Around Ranting About......

....Being "Born Again" or Being A "Family
Man" Etc., The Truth About What You Really Are Is Quite
different.

[B3Nut]

41. Amen to that.

If it's real in your life you don't have to talk about it. Real faith hope and love makes itself known without a word being said. If ya have to flaunt it, something's amiss.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[MadHound]

36. Then I guess that I should have thrown back

Those born again voters that I persuaded to vote for Kerry and the Dems in '04, eh? After all, a total waste of time, what's forty-fifty extra votes in a predominantly red county, in a red state:eyes:

Look, if you're going to change those red states into blue ones anytime in the near future, you're going to have to engage born-agains and other people of faith, otherwise the numbers simply won't go in our direction. Is it easy, no. It takes weeks and months of calm, reasoned one on one discussion with your neighbors, relatives, friends, co-workers and aquaintances. But it can be done. But you can't allow knee-jerk reactions and your own personal biases to come to the fore. You must engage these people on their own terms, and in a calm rational manner. Yes, you can point out fallacies in fundie thought, but you can't come across as an elitist or rubbing their nose in it.

This whole wedge issue of religion was deliberately set in motion thirty five years ago. It is a new version of the old divide and conquer ploy. Racism was starting to lose its effectiveness as a divisive tool, pitting two groups that have more in common with each other than otherwise. But with the civil rights movement, race was weakened as a dividing factor. Thus, the ruling elite looked around and came up with religion as the new wedge factor. And people on all sides of the political spectrum are falling for it. Don't! Rather than allow ourselves to be divided along religious lines, engage these people. After all, as much as you might hate to acknowledge it, you probably have more in common with your fundie neighbor than with John Kerry. Think about it.

[DebinTx]

40. I agree with your post

in that the dem. party must develop a relationship with the religious. I am Catholic and disparage that democrats are labeled as being anti-faith yet the reality of the situation is religious freedom for all of us. This religious freedom message is what the dems MUST get across to all voters.

[LynneSin]

37. We aren't reaching out to the "born agains"

We won't convert anyone who has their proverbial head-up-their-ass born-again Christians. They are a lost cause.

But in this country there are millions of Christians, like my parents, who attend church every week and try to good in the eyes of the Lord. THey aren't frothing at the mouth fundies but the fundies are able to package their message in a way that somehow makes "sense" to these everyday normal Christians and the fundies' package is made in a way to vilify us liberals as baby-killers out to take away everyones gun and force everyone to abandon their faith.

We aren't catering to the far-right nutjobs, but the people in the middle who are getting bad messages from that far-right. It's a good plan. Christians are not the enemy because if that's what you believe, then I am your enemy. Fundamentalists are the enemy, fundamentalists who take an extremely awesome religion and fuck it up for their abuse on others.

Edit note: I do not believe in "Born-Again" I was born and raised in a Christian family, how can I be "Born-Again" and if someone who is not of the faith converts to Christianity, they were never born of the religion in the first place so how can they be born again?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. i am a bornagain...

and you can reach out to me...and have been. The key is not trying to change the vocal minority you cannot reach, it is finding the bornagains that you CAN reach...and they are out there...and they are in here. Voices of moderation DO exist in the protestant churches out there...you can't have the member numbers they do and NOT have calmer heads...

Just my two cents...
theProdigal

[QC]

44. Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Al Gore are evangelicals.

According to one poll, 40% of evangelical voters voted for Gore in 2000. Should we just write all these people off?

[One_Life_To_Give]

45. Offer them a drink

They can be much easier to handle when drunk. }(