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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:11 PM
Original message
A call for civility and understanding...
Since it worked so well a couple of weeks back when the late pope was dying, I thought I'd try one more time to get people to try to understand one another now.

There have been some very ugly things said over the last couple of days. I would like to remind everyone that there are some things about this situation that we can all pretty much agree on.

1. This was not a good PR move by the Church.

2. There are plenty of things the new pope has done AS AN ADULT that we think are just plain wrong.

3. There are many positions officially held by "the Church" that the majority of us disagree with.

4. There are some official Church policies most of us agree with as well.

5. Whether a position falls under number 3 or 4 above depends on who you talk to.

6. People of good will can disagree about whether the areas where they agree with the Church are significant enough to remain Catholic. That's each person's individual choice and we can disagree without being disagreeable.

7. Comparing someone to Hitler is about the most harsh criticism you can level and you better have LOTS of facts to back up the comparison.

8. This is a very hard time for many people on this board - Catholics, ex-Catholics and those who have been hurt by the Church or by organized religion generally. I think we can all agree that many of us are on edge and reacting out of emotion.

My point is this, we're all yelling at people that we agree with on 90%+ of the issues. It's a little bit silly and a whole lot sad. We need to come together to work against the right-wing agenda represented by the current powers within the Church and within the world. We look like maniacs and it isn't the way to convince the rest of the world of the rightness of our position.

I think we need to get back to the idea so simple that it appears in pretty much every religion human beings have ever created...treat others the way you would like to be treated.
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'll be glad when we get back to the issues that matter to me
I'm all "Poped" out. :evilgrin:
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I am too...
but I have too many upset friends right now on both sides not to at least try to talk to people.

Watching a thread about "Equal PAy Day" sink like a stone under "Pope Pope Pope Nazi Nazi Nazi" the other day just made me cry.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow...it only took 20 minutes...
for this to drop like a stone to page 2.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. VelmaD
:hug:

You nailed it. Everytime we get slammed hard we ALL get emotional and this happens. It is human nature as is your wonderful appeal to our better nature. I hope things settle down soon.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You and me both...
There's nothing wrong with emotion...it's all about what you do with it.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Vote #1
plea for tolerance nominated

Thanks VelmaD.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thank you
:hug:

Nice to know this isn't a totally wasted effort. :)
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. My feeling is
the mods and admin want this reform to come from within, so wth lets do it
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Amen and hallelujah!
Just kidding. Thanks for the reminder. I hope this thread accomplishes as much as your last one did. :toast:

I'm figuring Pope-a-palooza will start to peter out by Sunday.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I know it probably makes me a bad person...
but I just giggle every time someone says "pope-a-palooza".
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. For that giggle say three hail marys and two our fathers
My own mother, who goes to Church each and every Sunday and holy day of obligation with an envelope stuffed with cash, started ROFLing this morning when I told her that Ratzinger's nickname around the Vatican was God's Rottweiler.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Sounds like a cool mom
:)

And no contrition for me...not a religious person. Used to attend Catholic church with my best friend sometimes as a teen...but couldn't remember all the words to the Hail Mary if you threatened me with a lake 'o fire. :)
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thanks, she is. So was her momma who we lost in 2000.
OK, so how about drinking three bloody marys and watching the Godfather I and II? :D
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Now that's the kind of penance...
that I can get into. :evilgrin:
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nominated for "Greatest" just for the deep respect I have
for common sense. :thumbsup:
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Wow...I hope my momma is lurking today...
and actually saw someone accuse me of having common sense. :)
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MissB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you VelmaD
:hug:
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You're welcome
Hugs are always appreciated and returned. :) :hug:
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. kickety
Yup...I'm shameless :kick:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think this is majority opinion here...
Out of 68,000 people registered, it's the vocal crowd that roils the threads and many just read and let it go.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You are probably right...
I just figured it was worth saying.
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rene moon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks Velma!
We needed that.
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. Very wise words indeed
Thank you, VelmaD. It's time to go back to fighting the criminals that have hijacked our country.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'm gonna blush...
First I got "common sense" and now I got "wise". My head's gonna bust. :)

Thanks. And you're right. We've got much more immediate concerns.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. One more kick...
because I'm too ornery to give up. :)
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. As deeply loyal Catholic
Edited on Thu Apr-21-05 06:47 PM by PATRICK
I find it hard to be hard on those dismayed and reacting accordingly to the worst, most untimely choice of Pope since...well I think you have to go back to the Renaissance.

I think to myself, the epithets and quick reactions to the Hitler Youth thing are obscuring far far more serious matters now coming into better focus. Like Hoover, this guy helped crush the REALLY far out RW traditionalists for whom Vatican II was complete heresy. Like Bush, this pope believes redefining things to do the same is the real way to go. His belief in his use of words is what is really absolute, but relatively speaking, he is much too sure in the claims he is making in the very use of words, sometimes devoid of spirit and charity. A bad sign to the spiritually discerning. Old prejudices now seem to contain validity but those hate propaganda bones of the past are corrupting the process of getting at the truth. The fruit of the tree seems to be division and enmity and not because the new pope is pitting Christian charity against the world's evils. Nearly the reverse.

I have often posted that the long time the previous pope had in appointing cardinals and bishops had been not very healthy to say the least. They were more worried(like our Dems) in reaching out to the hard, bitter right, even the fringe loonies, than the completely loyal and generally compassionate left. His experience with Communism pushed the ideological envelope the wrong way and away from dealing with power people as power people. He suffered longer under Communism in Poland than under the fascists. Like all people wielding too much power and influence they simply cannot get around criticizing their own judgment.

Right off the bat the new Pope who has been preparing for decades is blossoming into an authoritarian who will divide the Church and test the teaching power of the Church to the limit. Curious forays into bedroom morality will be nothing compared to a blind RW absolutism in its effect on making people just chuck the bloviated Vatican I doctrine of infallibility into the wastebasket to keep their own sanity.

Our suspicions here are not only on target but bear as close watching as any of the other sad list list of right wing TRex's afflicting our soon to be decimated masses. I caught myself trying to list the guy's good points and possible pluses, what he might do honestly or for the good and I thought- why? I have been down this road my whole life and studied a lot of abysmal history. All my instincts tell me this is bad news, a sad commentary on the poor leadership of the Church(which has been warring with a wasteful control fight for many decades), and another example how the bunker mentality has been inverted, all decent people ducking in the open air while the power elite in closed rooms gleefully, arrogantly, destructively, push buttons.

Thanks to the fantasy of top heavy power mystique that never was justifiable or healthy in politics or religion, the wolves have moved in all over as a new Century of Crisis begins, a largely self-inflicted and constantly aggravated crisis that makes all who support this exploitation of power responsible for the increasing amounts of suffering to come.

And they are worried about ideology or abortion. The day might well come when a brutalized humanity will spit on this generation for such small scale hypocritical concerns. Humanity itself is in danger of abortion and its institutions have been deeply betrayed. The sign is that we will not survive delegating responsibility or trusting in fantasies. Those avenues have been cut off and taken. Time to grow up or face the consequences.

Peter never had to campaign or fix his selection. His opposition and his mistakes are noted in Scripture so anyone trying to wield greater authority had better mind their humility quotient. Anti-popes, anti-presidents and the like always seem to point the finger at others to accuse them of illegitimacy. A bad sign indeed. As with democracy, the work of the spirit must move elsewhere through the masses as it must. This is the real necessity of our times but it a labor under the shame of being so easily misled and betrayed by institutions granted more than their rightful respect and power.

It is better to get our steam out in the open and move quickly on to more important matters. And not gratify the enemies of mankind and God with bickering, and divisions and other results of the broken mirror.

It might do some good to examine our prejudices, those quick judgments and traditional epithets and get a little more real.

I think no one yet has felt how disastrous this event threatens to be more than Catholics who know the inside of their Church. A little sympathy please. Despite all the progress in collegiality not even our bishops get a say much less a ballot.
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