Someday the deeply religious will apologize to me and ask my forgiveness

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

I do not believe all issues of faith are delusional fairy tales. Even those that don't believe in God believe in something. Certainly if a person who does not believe in God believes in the greater good, they are entertaining a fairy tale based on all the available evidence, so if one challenges the actual process of believing rather than the CONTENT of those beliefs..we are all victims of belief systems now and then...but that isn't the point of this post.

Just as some deeply regret the manner in which black people were treated in America just a few short decades ago...and certainly as some deeply regret the internment of Japanese people during WWII out of hysteria, and just as some deeply regret that their support of the patriot movement spawned a Timothy McVeigh ( and I know SOME of them must)....
I am certain that someday people will look back on the manner in which they let their religious fervor get the best of them and they will regret allowing themselves to be used for a government which has chosen to deprive people of their rights to score political points.

People of faith will regret that their figureheads were actually divisive political hacks rather than true spiritual advisors.

[dave29]

1. someday is a ways off.

People hate asking for forgiveness, which is ironic if you think about it.

But using your argument, is it not a belief system that you believe you are owed an apology?

Are we not all born without a "How to Live on the Earth" Handbook that is accepted planet-wide?

[Done]

6. What...you didn't get your "How to live on Earth" handbook?

I would let you borrow mine, but I lost it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

2. I'm not picking on you, but you stepped on one of my pet peeves.

The problem is not with the "deeply religious."

I am deeply religious. My religion, however, is radically different from the literalism espoused by those who hang on to an ancient mythology and treat it as history.

Faith isn't the problem. Faith in what?...is the problem.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Fair enough...to some degree I phrased myself as I did due

to the limitation in characters in the header, and it's hard to phrase this one without attracting someone for who the "shoe doesn't fit."

But on the gay issue, every day on this board even moderates will tell me it's not them but their dogma that precludes my equal treatment as a gay person.

Faith in what...I agree

(sorry to trigger your pet peeve)

[liberalhistorian]

8. Exactly, couldn't

have said it better myself. I understand what she's trying to say, that those who are "deeply religious" in the hateful, RW wingnut fundie way will eventually recognize what they've done and "regret" it in the manner of the examples she cited in her post. I sincerely hope that's true, but many are so arrogant that who knows.

But people also need to recognize that not all Christians and those who are "deeply religious", like me, are wingnut fundies and that we hate hate HATE how the RW fundies have hijacked Christianity and twisted and distorted it and painted us all with the same hateful theocratic brush. Christ himself was the original liberal and I'm sick to death of these people telling me and like-minded Christians that we're not "true" Christians because we dare to feel differently than they do.

We are doing everything we can to oppose and fight these people and to do what Christ called us to do, comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, but it's gonna take a little time given the power of the fundies right now. So please don't paint me and like-minded Christians with the same brush as the fundies, we are not at all alike. They might as well practice a different religion as far as we're concerned.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. And if I've offended anyone I would fall on my sword apologizing

On the other hand, if your voice suddenly gets louder and begins drowning these people out in an attempt to delineate yourselves from them...I would still be sorry for the offense as the ends doesn't justify the means but the ends would still be preferable to the status quo ante.

[liberalhistorian]

15. Oh, I wasn't offended, I understood

what you were trying to say. I just didn't want people to think that all deeply religious people were like the hateful wingnut theocratic fundies.

[lastliberalintexas]

20. That's still not it

"Faith isn't the problem. Faith in what?...is the problem."

Your post is still judging another, and at the very least implying that your beliefs are better than any who are literalists.

That still puts one human in the position of judging the belief system of another, and still not something that liberal, tolerant individuals should do. It doesn't matter so much if that person believes as a Catholic, a fundamentalist foot washing Baptist, a Hindi, a Buddhist, or doesn't believe in any higher power at all. What matters is what is done to others in the name of that belief system.

As I've said many times, I don't care if you worship a head of lettuce for goodness sakes. Your beliefs *only* become a problem when you try to force me to abide by them.

[Pacifist Patriot]

21. Sorry, but faith in what is a problem.

There are healthy forms of faith and unhealthy forms. I don't care if I'm seen as judgmental or not. Child molestation isn't healthy, but I suspect you wouldn't consider me judgmental for being against it. We all have to take a stand somewhere.

[lastliberalintexas]

24. Child molestation is not a faith

Thanks for the non sequitur, though.

Almost everyone believes their faith is fine, it's just the other guy's belief system that is f'ed up. That's just human nature. But it still doesn't mean that particular faith is the problem- so long as the believer leaves others alone.

Many people tend to have this delusion that they can decide how others should live, whether that is based on religion or not. No matter what our belief system is, it only becomes a problem when we try to force it on others.

I disagree with the Catholic Church's stance against contraception, but Catholics are certainly free to act in accordance with their beliefs if they see fit. I disagree with the fundie/End Timers who are preparing for the Rapture, but they can certainly live as though there is no tomorrow if they see fit. It only becomes my problem when they try to force me to do the same, whether they personally try to force me to abide by their belief system or whether they try to force me to do so through the government. Otherwise, their belief system really isn't any of my business.

Even if they belong to a church worshiping UFOs and awaiting the return of Jabba the Hut. :)

[Pacifist Patriot]

27. Thank you for agreeing with me...

"so long as the believer leaves others alone.

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Faiths that do not do this are unhealthy in my opinion.

[faithnotgreed]

31. i was going to post similar thoughts.... these are not "deeply religious"

people were talking about

the people who drive hate and fear based actions are actually deeply in denial and deeply closed off to the true love of God

but as kerry has been saying of late - i dont want these people as spokesman for religion.

as has been going on since the beginning of time they clearly live and espouse just the opposite of pure love (eg Jesus)

truly bizarre but then again there is often powerful disconnect in every aspect of our world

[mpendragon]

4. and you only have about 300-400 years to wait

Galileo

[PKG]

5. Someday. Hold hope, but don't hold your breath.

People can be pretty darn delusional, and once you buy into extremism, delusions don't drop off as easy as they're picked up.

[Bunny]

7. I certainly believe that someday there will be a period of

National Chagrin, if not National Regret, for the actions of today's allegedly 'religious' leaders.

[Bridget Burke]

9. The deeply religious are not the political animals...

The ones who are trying to force religion on you are the hypocrits.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. I don't totally buy that for the reason stated above

As a participant on DU, we do have people who follow their faith and when matters concerning gay people arise, the justification is that their dogma dictates the position, even as they may not support it.

[Bridget Burke]

14. There are more people of faith here ....

Who practice their faith but disagree with some of the humans in the heirarchy.

Please point me to a religoius DUer who's slammed the gays because of their faith. Preferably one with more than a dozen posts.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. I never said anyone slammed anyone because of their faith here

And there are more than a handful of threads in the archives justifying taking a position against gay "marriage" based on the definition of marriage according to people's faiths.

[Squeech]

12. Never happen

What's particularly pernicious about the current run of theocrats is that they now have a justification for hatred. And the faithful, at least the ones who don't mind being referred to as "sheep," lap it up because hating is what they've always wanted to do.

Back in the day, Jesus used to say "God is love," and anger was one of the deadly sins, so hatred wasn't cool. But now our marketing geniuses have managed to suborn His actual message into some weird eBay-mystical doctrine of salvation through consumption, occasionally supplemented by righteous cleansing of deviants.

I'm not a person of faith myself, but I would consider worshipping at the hood of your car... makes more sense to me than most altars.

[eallen]

13. I don't believe in anything the way the religious do.

"Even those that don't believe in God believe in something." Not in the way the religious do. No, thank you. I'm not capable of faith in that sense.

"Certainly if a person who does not believe in God believes in the greater good, they are entertaining a fairy tale based on all the available evidence." There is no distinguished notion of 'the greater good.' As a liberal, I hold to certain values, not as a matter of fact, which values never are, but because of the kind of society I wish to inhabit. It is informed preference, not some pretense to a transcendental truth. If that's not enough for you, I'm sorry, but I don't do fairy tales.

:bounce:

[Selteri]

17. I wouldn't hold my breath on these wingnuts

They're small minded bigots who just look for an excuse to hate and whoever they can hate is open to them.

For them it's an EOS type statement, they'll always hate and be racist, no matter what they claim, eventually their hate does come out. (I can't count how many right wingers still call blacks Ni----, Arabics To--- ----, etc etc etc. They just hide it publically in general because it isn't politically correct for them to hang their hate out, the second they feel they can get away with it, they do.

[Selteri]

18. self-delete doublepost

[Discord]

19. STOP! This has been discussed to DEATH

Atheists do NOT have a belief system as you have alleged.

It is offensive to us, please discontinue using such dialogue to try and define us. Do not try to define us using reasoning that only applies to you and other religious people... its night and day in its differance.


Thank you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. And please stop speaking for all atheists.

I know atheists who do consider their position to be a belief system. But I do agree with you in one respect. Enough already.

[Discord]

23. Then I would assert that they are not Atheists.

Maybe Atheist-lite. I dunno.

We don't accept symbolism either.

No where, on any Atheist website or group will you find anything that supports your assertions. Many sites will be very much to the contrary.

There are several groups that are similar to Atheists, such as the Secular Humanitarians, Scientologists, and even some Agnostics. But anyone who thinks being an Atheist is a belief system is NOT an Atheist, and they need to find a more appropriate term to describe THEIR beliefs.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. Well I'll make sure they know to check in with you when they...

profess their beliefs include the lack of divinity.

[Discord]

30. They don't need to check in with me.

Just know what it means to be a real Atheist before calling yourself one. Many "belief systems" have a lack of a divinity. There are more appropriate terms that describe what you have about what they believe. Sounds like from your comments, they are somewhere between Agnosticism (your comment about them saying that there was no way to prove there was no God), and Secular Humantarianism. (Your comment about their desire for community understanding, and their professed spirituality)

So again. By your own descriptions of what THEY call Atheists, does not fall within Atheism.

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. Okay, I bow to your expertise.

Your definitions prevail. I will be sure to let them know they are not permitted to refer to themselves as atheists.

[tjdee]

34. Isn't the original poster an atheist?

:shrug:

[ComerPerro]

25. I wouldn't count on it. The deeply religious shouldn't need to apologize

If they are actually sincere about their beliefs and are honestly working to be good Christians, they will have nothing to apologize for, except for the terrible bigotry that people like Falwell carry out in the name of Christianity. If they feel bad about that, they may apologize even though its not their doing.

But, the ones who are spouting out hate rhetoric and who are embracing bigotry will never apologize. They are not deeply religious. Its just a show.

[Save The World]

26. It seems that some are already apologizing

Not exactly the way you meant, but still:

http://spiacente.splinder.com/

[Rich Hunt]

29. good for you

...but I don't dream of a day when fundies and their apologists will grovel before me. I don't want their apology - I want them out of my way.

It's not about personal gratification with me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Good for you too

It's not about personal gratification with me.

I never said it was with me..you seem to have issues with me...

[DARE to HOPE]

33. Dear child,

I consider myself deeply religious. And I want to ask your forgiveness now, at this time, and share the tears with you.

I am in ministry with my Lutheran clergyman husband. I have been enduring my own grief over the selection of this "Pope," feeling the deep loathing of the Church toward women, taking in the prejudice and real ignorance of their position. A natural but foolish thing to do--prayer DOES banish it.

But I was today in the home of one of our dear families. They raised their five boys between the Greek and Roman churches in our town (long before we moved here in the 1970's) but ended up with us as they lost the youngest, then the eldest, to AIDS. It would have broken a weaker family. The policeman father could not at first even say the word in this conservative working class community--he told his colleagues his youngest son had cancer.

This was all a number of years ago now. But in the middle of all the grief, the community pulled these boys to their chests, and said "I love you" to young men who had, after all, grown up here, and were "known" from childhood on. Whatever homophobia might have existed in either the Roman or Lutheran congregations, disappeared or at least went underground, in the midst of loving our own.

I know both Roman and Lutheran clergy who are "underground" in their own parishes. And the parishes even really know. We also have a dear priest friend who is "out" and serving a gay parish in Atlanta. I know the struggle from the inside. I know the complicity of silence when gay issues are discussed. And I NEVER, or almost never, fail to say something to involve myself. We have lived in a black-white area for 30 years. As a white person, it is easy to "pass" out in the white community. But I DO NOT let racist talk go unaddressed either.

The harder issue is raising gay rights in conservative church bodies. Our church is so conservative that they do not accept women as equals. I don't have an excuse for that except that I am married to a loving man. He has tried to raise the consciousness of fellow pastors on just the idea that they need to be concerned about what all is happening in America!!

Sigh! What can I say except that change comes slowly. But--Nothingshocksmeanymore--I want you to know: God IS, and God is LOVE. And God loves YOU, no matter how imperfect the church on earth. His Love is everywhere, surrounding us, with light and love and warmth.

I for one feel deeply for all gay people this week. And for the rest of us, too. God be with you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Thanks so much for this post

And thanks for giving ALL OF US some hope.