Why are so many non Catholics getting so worked

[mmonk]

up about something they don't belong to? See if you can stay clear of conspiracy theories about the Church's undue influence on one of the more non Catholic nations on the planet. And by the way, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, DK, Nancy Pelosi, and others don't follow "lockstep" with papal directives in the things they fight for in our government. Anyone remember JFK having to "explain" to the American people he was an American and that Rome would not direct US policy while he was president? This crap gets so ridiculous sometimes.

[Walt Starr]

1. 1 billion people and 27% of the American population

That's political power tooo huge to ignore.

BTW, according to Catholic doctrine, I am a Catholic as I was baptised a Catholic (against my will as an infant).

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. So THAT'S why you were screaming.

;) :hi:

[bryant69]

10. Well yeah, but what can you do about it?

Listing flat numbers is a bit off, in my opinion, because it ignores the vast differences within the catholic church. If the pope called on people to vote for Bush, how many American Catholics would fall in line?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Walt Starr]

19. More than actually did.

IF he declared it a mortal sin punishable by excommunication to vote for a democrat, I would expect to see at least a five point swing in the Catholic vote, probably more.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. Obviously enough of them.

[Lone Pawn]

48. When the difference between the parties is 2 percentage points,

more than enough.

[smirkymonkey]

52. Are you a Catholic simply by right of Baptism?

or do you have to be confirmed?

I think I was baptized Catholic, but was raised by a Protestant mother and Catholic father (although my Dad didn't really care one way or the other.)

If so, how do I become un-catholic? (I am not religious at all, but I certainly don't want to be officially Catholic)

[Walt Starr]

55. I was Baptized a Catholic after I was born

I was raised a rationalist and made my own choices from there.

I would request excommunication, but I've never received communion.

[Zenlitened]

2. Because the catholic church hires lawyers and lobbysists...

... to work against civil rights for gays and lesbians in Massachusetts.

For starters.

[trotsky]

3. Policies of Catholic and Catholic-owned hospitals

can affect the health of any non-Catholic with the misfortune of having an accident near one, or not living in an area with a choice.

[onehandle]

14. My mother in law owns a new age book store.

Runs in witch circles. Is in no way a Catholic.

She got Excellent care at a local Catholic owned Hospital recently.

I don't know what you are implying, but all they want to see is your insurance card. Just like Any hospital.

[trotsky]

16. The procedures that Catholic hospitals will not perform.

Abortions (including ending a dangerous ectopic pregnancy)
Some infertility treatments
Tubal ligations
Voluntary sterilization

Want more?

[onehandle]

22. Well, if someone is driving by a Catholic Hospital...

...and needs an emergency voluntary sterilization.

Then I guess they're screwed.

[LdyGuique]

24. since when are any of these procedures classified as

emergency care that one would expect from "having an accident" nearby to a Catholic hospital?

[trotsky]

28. Or only having a Catholic hospital nearby.

If a pregnant woman is in an accident and her water breaks early in pregnancy, a uteral infection is pretty much a guarantee unless an abortion is performed. So yes, it could easily happen.

[Lars39]

38. Does bleeding to death from an ectopic pregnancy count?

[readmoreoften]

64. Oh, so they'll let me see my partner in the hospital? n/t

[Tinoire]

26. Great. Let's close the Catholic hospitals and provide EVEN LESS

care to people.

This is getting ridiculous.

You have problems with Catholic hospitals? Stay away from them and get your government to build you more secular hospitals.

Too fucking hilarious. How low will people sink?

Maybe the Catholic Church should consider closing its hospitals to non-Catholics and providing that more affordable healthcare only to members of its congregation. That should put an end to all this silly bickering.

You just can't win in this spoiled society of "me me me me".

LMAO.

[trotsky]

30. Yeah, "me me me"

Being a male concerned for pregnant women whose water breaks early in pregnancy, forcing them to have an abortion or face a life-threatening infection. Oops, there's only a Catholic hospital nearby? Sorry, dear!

Yep, that's all about me.

[Joe the Revelator]

32. You need to find a better example..

I'd be willing to agree with you on this point, but your example is absurd.

[trotsky]

33. Explain to me how it's absurd.

Don't think it could happen?

It did.
http://www.wcla.org/98-summer/su98-17.html

This example is even worse, since it concerns a hospital that merely became AFFILIATED with Catholic hospitals, yet could not perform any procedures contrary to Catholic dogma.

[MissB]

40. Absurd?

It is not absurd. Read the link.

http://www.wcla.org/98-summer/su98-17.html

Nurses running after rape victims in the parking lot to give them emergency contraceptives because they can't give it in the hospital?

Yeah, that is humane.

[PaulaFarrell]

51. Are you sure about that?

My water broke early (only a couple of weeks) and the only infection they were worried about was in the baby, not me - I think water breaking early in pregnacy would only cause a miscarriag, but I'm not an expert, maybe somebody medical knows?

[Lars39]

53. no, you were at risk, too.

Glad it turned out ok. :)

[trotsky]

62. Will this do?

http://us.pampers.com/en_US/content/type/104/contentId/9434.do

The big danger of ruptured membranes this early is that infection can form in the uterus. If you suspect that your water has broken, call your provider for advice right away. Don't put anything in your vagina — certainly don't have intercourse — for you need to be very careful about infection. And even if your provider tells you that everything is fine, if you should develop a temperature, call your provider or go to a hospital right away.

[Lars39]

39. And when the Catholic hospital has merged with the only other

hospital in the area?

[demnan]

4. The tyranny of religion

affects us all.

[sonicx]

7. bingo.

[Lindacooks]

58. That's it!!! Thank you!!

BTW, the first picture of your kitties looks exactly like my Headley (yes, as in Blazing Saddles!).

[SharonRB]

5. Someone at work yesterday wondered why someone (me)

who is Jewish would care about who the pope is. I told her because it has a huge effect on world affairs. I'll tell you the same thing.

[Kolesar]

8. Your premise is a loaded remark

What you are really saying is that non Catholics have no right to criticise the pope. Well, fuck. Those conservative bastards in the Church cost Kerry the election. :nuke:

[Rich Hunt]

43. I don't think so

I'm all for fair criticism of religious leaders. I'm a lapsed Catholic myself.

I just find it creepy that a few posters on DU (yes, they are only a few - just very loud) obsess NOT on the leaders in question, but on some DUers' 'membership' (like it's a book club or something) in a particular religion. This is moralizing, and the people who do it are therefore hypocrites.

It smacks of McCarthyism. And yes, it IS creepy. Now we have one poster telling another that he/she reads all of the other poster's posts. That is inappropriate and uncivil.

Maybe all of us witches should sign our posts with yellow keys or something.

I'd like to think people could keep their arguments rational and impersonal.

[readmoreoften]

65. Don't forget to bring up how all of this is a directed

against the Irish, like you did in the "Gay Catholics Lament the Pope Choice Thread."

[Warpy]

9. It's no conspiracy theory. Better refresh your memory.

"German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the
Vatican theologian who was elected Pope Benedict XVI, intervened in the 2004 US election campaign ordering bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters including presidential candidate
John Kerry"

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

That's interfering in the US election!!!!!

It has been documented that the percentage of Catholics who identified as such and reported they voted for Bush increasedin 2004.

WAKE UP!

[mmonk]

13. Against Catholics

WAKE UP!

[napi21]

29. I read the link. I didn't recall that was Ratzinger, but I recall the

turmoil it created in the Catholic Churches in America. I have no idea what the % split was, but there sure was a split!

The other thing that was quoted in that article was an interesting statement:

A footnote to the letter also condemned any Catholic who votes specifically for a candidate because the candidate holds a pro-abortion position. Such a voter "would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for holy communion," the letter read.



Now, I suppose there are some people "Catholic or not" who "specifically vote for a candidarte because of his position on abortion", but there are far more people who do not!

Any rational person has to admit that there isn't ANY candidate they would agree with on EVERY position! I know quite a few people who voted for Kerry, even though they are against abortion completely! Their statements are always "I look at both candidates, and vote for the one I agree with more often than his opponent.

I don't agree with abortion, and I would never have had one! (too old now to matter!) HOWEVER, I won't force my opinions on everyone else, and the positions the Pugs take on almost every other issue, I disagree with completely! So I vote for the Dems all the time.

I am a faithful Catholic, but I do not believe I should force everyone else to be!!!

[sui generis]

11. same reason us non-republicans get worked up about repugs

[Zenlitened]

21. Aw, heck. Why do you always have to sum things up so simply and perfectly?

:) :thumbsup:

[Patiod]

12. Catholic doctrine is influencing Pennsylvania's election

Dems are going to run Bob Casey, Jr. (who is "pro-life") because it will remove the influence of the Catholic Church in a very-Catholic state (31%).

If they ran someone else, the Church would otherwise tell folks to vote "pro-life" and issue "pro-life" "Voter's Guides" which would basically just encourage the faithful to vote for Santorum.

[mmonk]

15. Well then I think Catholics

should start some threads about Protestants then. I do believe the pResident is protestant, is he not? So protestantism is definitely a threat to the civil rights of gays and lesbians and a woman's right to choose and liberalism in general and they have lobbyists. So I definitely should be worked up against protestants, methodists in particular, am I correct?

[sonicx]

17. There have been PLENTY of threads about protestant church leaders

and people in the past, but they aren't in the press. The pope is.

[Kolesar]

18. You should go for a walk in the park

You started this thread with a weak thesis, and about NO explanation of the length of what has got you worked up. DU is only a message board with a few hundred people viewing it at any one time. What happens here is not going to change the rotation of the Earth about its axis. So lighten up. If it bugs you so much, just leave for a few days. DU will still be here.

[mmonk]

68. Well here I'm back and I'm not worked up

Just found it interesting of the amount and tenor of some of the posts (this one has grown quite a bit). I was just wanted to get an idea of what was driving it so much here at DU. Some good answers, some bad answers, some irrational fear about it all (probably due to a few religious induced demons here in the states) that one could find at a certain fundie university in S.C.. I'm not really religious myself (a bit agnostic and fan of Carl Sagan) but I still find the reactions fascinating. Now if people would just concentrate on a home grown menace and sign an online petition concerning the filibuster.

[lastliberalintexas]

27. I'd say Southern Baptists in particular, but that's just me

If you think there haven't been plenty of threads attacking Protestants on this board, you've had blinders on. Some of the criticism of Protestant policies is unfounded, as is some directed at the RCC. However, much of it is legitimate criticism of all religions who attempt to interfere with the secular US government and world affairs.

Next week people will get back to bashing the fundies. It's just the conservative Catholics turn this week because their church is in the current spotlight.

[Coastie for Truth]

23. As long as the Church doesn't take affirmative steps to make me

comply with Church doctrines (especially on family planning and on stem cell research) I will not force the Church to comply with Kashrut. Deal?

(I don't even follow Kashrut when it comes to Bacon wrapped shrimp at Reform Bar Mitzvahs and Weddings).

BTW - in my home town if your hand was mangled in an industrial accident (Rust Belt heavy manufacturing industry community - very common before OSHA) - you went to one particular Catholic Hospital - the Italian Catholic orthopod was truly a miracle worker - as were the Residents under his tutelage.

Of course, if you had a life threatening pregnancy - you went elsewhere.

[asjr]

25. I am rather ecumenical on this. In my estimation

any religious leader who dictates to the populace what they can and can not do runs the risk of establishing a cult. I include Fallwell and Robertson. Any church leader who enters into the realm of telling parishoners to vote for or vote against a political player is tearing at the seams of separation of church and state. That's all folks.

[expatriot]

31. That's like asking why Europeans get so worked up about Bush.

Even though Catholics (especially American Catholics) don't follow lock-step with Papal Doctrine it does affect the tone...IF the Pope is spending most of his time railing against abortion and gays or if he is railing against the death penalty and arrogant foreign policy.

[Solly Mack]

34. Catholics in government can't march lockstep with the Vatican

and church teachings....well, they can march lockstep...but when they do they cease to be a fair and honest representative of the people. After all, America is a secular nation.

No one in government can march lockstep ... and be a good representative of the people...no matter what religion they are...

[bobaloo2]

35. Here's why

Uh, well, at least in my case it has to do with an organization that has a 2000 year history of mass murder and genocide, gradually accumulating worldly power while claiming to answer to only an invisible guy in the sky, who wants to tell us all how to live.

Oh sure, they haven't gone on any outright crusades in a few years, and they don't burn people these days. Now they work through the political process, telling their followers who to vote for.

Once they begin to try to influence law and policy they're fair game. When the guy they claim is the holiest guy in the world fought in the German army and ran the Inquisition for 25 years, gosh, I have concerns. When most all of the major problems facing the world can be traced back to overpopulation and they say that doing anything to limit the number of kids you have is wrong, I'm concerned. When they say I'm an abomination and stir up frenzy which gets people like me murdered, I'm concerned.

Why is it that some people seem to think that because they base their crazy beliefs on an ancient myth that it should be immune from criticism?

[fishwax]

36. Why do so many Catholics get worked up when non-Catholics have an opinion?

I'm Catholic. But Jeez. Why shouldn't non-Catholics talk about it? I just don't get why some catholics expect everyone else to keep quiet.

[mmonk]

37. My point is this

It seems there are way too many posts on this choosing a pope and the undue influence on America opinion is built up way too much. For example, let's look to our north at Canada. It's predominately Catholic. Let's look at France. That's way, way predominately Catholic. I would be interested in being shown how much the Catholic church is influencing their government and laws. Feel free to show me how they have turned rightwing or that they will with this particularly despicable pope and show me the evidence. Should you be able to discuss your feelings on this selection? Sure. Are you overblowing its impact? In my experience, yes, we are no longer in the middle ages. Peace.

[Malva Zebrina]

41. Don't forget, the Vatican has a non voting seat in the UN

and is a powerful influence there, especially when it comes to women's health all over the world. Also, because of the Vatican, Ratzinger , now Pope Benedict, was the one who wrote the letter to US Bishops telling them to refuse communion to Catholics who supported abortion (and Kerry) The one that made the news during the campaign was in Colorodo Springs when it was widely reported and that had to influence the faithful in a way that was detremental to Kerry.

There are as many non fundamentalists, non Protestants,non theists who are also very concerned over the theocrats in a religious organisation, infiltrating a government and attempting to foist the precepts of their religion upon others and USING the religion to actually harm people.

Today we hear that Christian fundamentalism has infiltrated the Air Force Academy and cadets there have attacked a Jew , who is also a cadet, with verbal abuse and cruel anti-semitic remarks. The guy in charge of the place is a born again Christian.

I think everyone has a right and at this point,I would say even a duty, to be concerned about any religion that tries to influence an election to the point where the Vatican sends out letters promising hell to those who would have voted for Kerry and when this rampant rush to theocracy by the likes of the literalist fundamentalists threatens our Constitution.

[Bluebear]

42. "This crap gets so ridiculous sometimes."

Well, so is saying one can understand violence against gays since they are choosing to live in sin. Not condoned, mind you, but understandable.

Is that 'crap' ridiculous?

[Bridget Burke]

44. Two reasons

1) They're concerned about Catholic influence on public affairs.

2) They were raised to hate Catholics & are always glad to express their ancient hatred.

[Malva Zebrina]

45. Bridget I am surprised at number two

in view of all the threads that reveal that Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth at the age of fourteen, and later, served a few more years as a part of the military, supporting Hitler and the third Reich. Now, to follow your logic, if Pope Benedict is to be excused from his youthful adventure,because, well because he didn't know any better at that age, surely those who, as young children were taught to hate Catholics, can also be excused as being mere youngsters vulnerable to the religious teachings of their church or parents.

[Bridget Burke]

46. Where did I say that Pope Benedict was to be excused?

I'm talking about the so-called Liberals whose rants reveal an intimate knowledge of ancient anti-Catholic rantings sucked up with their mothers' milk.

And they still embrace those beliefs.

I'm afraid you can't follow my logic.

[Malva Zebrina]

47. So then, do you excuse or not excuse the connection with the Nazi

Third Reich or not?

The logic is as follows, and I hope it is not too difficult:

If you do excuse Ratzinger from his murky past as a young man, then logically you have to excuse those you say hate Catholics because they were taught that before they were exposed to the slings and arrows of life just as Ratzinger was.

If not, then the only logical path is to condemn Ratzinger for his participation in support of the Third Reich.

Which is it?

[Bridget Burke]

50. His distant past is one thing...

Many recent religious pronouncements are troubling, but none reflect Nazi beliefs.

Our little Ian Paisley followers still proudly spout their anti-Catholic hatred.

What brave things did you do at 14?

[Rich Hunt]

57. they don't know who Ian Paisley is

...and that's the problem.

Of course, there are also the people who DO know and pretend they don't.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. I am sorry that you feel so oppressed and persecuted-

If you make an argument, you need to be logically consistent and it appears that you are not being consistent , even in the least bit.

What did I do that was brave at the age of fourteen? Why is that important to you? It is a straw man to deflect the discussion away from your logical inconsistency.

Here it is again

If Ratzinger can be excused from his participation in Nazi Germany's goals on the claim that he was young, how then can you be so judgemental and irate at those who similarly learned at a early age to hate Catholics as you claim?

Either they both are guilty, or they both are to be excused on the presumption that they were young and impressionable.

You have a weak case to claim religious persecution at the hands of another religion that you say teaches hate toward Catholics at an early age, while defending Ratzinger.

[readmoreoften]

66. A sorry, but my mother's milk was Catholic milk

and as a gay American I despise the policies of the current Catholic church and how they will effect gay people world-wide.

[sonicx]

49. I was not raised to hate Catholics

I went to Catholic schools (with mass) while growing up and I don't hate them. I don't hate Christians either. My mom's a Christian.

[Bridget Burke]

56. No, the statement doesn't apply to everybody.

By the way, most people consider Catholics to be Christian....



Except for Ian & his pals. www.ianpaisley.org/tiara.asp

[sonicx]

67. I do too, but the subject was Catholics and...

I wanted to also say that I don't hate other Christians either.

I don't get why people talk about them seperately anyway (even Catholics do it).

[blindpig]

54. well, there is the population issue for one

which is the single greatest problem facing humankind. As the church has great influence over a large chunk of humanity and it's policy is opposite to what is needed to mitigate(the best we can hope for at this point)the disaster unfolding before us I believe any thinking person should be concerned. The Church is the largest single entity that could have an effect but it is sadly negative.

For the record, I abandoned the Church and all Abrahamic beliefs near 40 years ago.

[Junkdrawer]

60. Opposing Birth Control in an overpopulated world...

may well be the most cruel and dangerous "opinion" one could hold. IMHO, it ranks right up there with Limbaugh's "We puny humans couldn't possibly harm God's environment" nonsense.

As humans exceed the carrying capacity of the earth, we stretch said carrying capacity only with methods that will insure that the future ability of the earth to sustain humans will be less than we found it - we turn marginal cropland into chemically abundant cropland into deserts.

So, I'd love to think that the RCC is just a quaint believe system that I could take or leave. Unfortunately, it goes WAY beyond that.

[JackRiddler]

61. Why do so many non-Muslims get worked up by the Taliban?

Ratzinger says his Big Guy in the sky promises Hell to all who don't join his church and quake in fear at their own sinful nature... and I'm not allowed to expose this as a form of spiritual shakedown by an organization with a long and bloody history of such scams?

You think just because they're no longer an absolute power who can burn witches in public squares, they therefore no longer have an influence on the lives of the non-Catholics?

Do the Republicans live in a magic vaccuum where they only fuck the world up for Republicans?

And those of you thinking it's about anti-Catholic childhood indoctrination are hilarious. This is analogous to those who cry "Bush hater" to anyone who criticizes the US government.

Or else I'm not supposed to talk about one kind of religious fanatic because there's another kind of religious fanatic (Paisley) who hates and oppresses them in Ireland. Right. Sure.

It's been more than 40 years since Catholics were any kind of discriminated minority in the US. (And what they suffered does not exactly match up to the black experience, either, but never mind.)

I've never discriminated in particular among the many humbugs of the world who claim that God speaks to them and them only, and they therefore have a special dispensation to dictate The Law to everyone else.

They're all repulsive and transparent, whether they say they're a chosen people, an Arabian merchant, magically touched by Jesus in a hotel room, or a TV preacher.

You know what's funny? My son goes to a German school and we gave him the choice of what to take between secular ethics and religion. He liked the stories in the latter better, so by his own choice he's being taught a couple lessons of week by a (gasp) Catholic teacher. I don't mind, any more than I minded seeing him baptized him to palliate my Greek Orthodox family.

I lose no sleep over what religious beliefs he'll entertain in the end, because we have "indoctrinated" him - educated him - in the universally apprehensible skills of logic and reason. IT'S HIS GAME TO CHOOSE IN THE END. So what are the odds he'll decide that there is only one God who made everything, hates gays, and speaks exclusively to an old man in Rome - or to Jerry Falwell, or to the Ayatollah?

Please! This is a discussion and debate board. If you don't want your sacred cows slaughtered for burgers and eaten with ketchup, start your own knitting circle.

[donheld]

63. The Pope is a world leader, not just a religious leader

that's the reason we get worked up. We belong to the world and this man has a lot of power. For example what this man did to Kerry during the election.

[mmonk]

69. Thanks for your replies everyone

I hope the Catholics all around you, work with you, etc. don't scare you as much as it appears to some it does. I mean, is it anything you're witnessing from them in particular (any threatening change in their nature towards you)? Anyway, didn't mean to stir up such a hornets nest, it kind of fascinates me, so forgive me. I was raised Catholic and still go occasionally with my family although I'm agnostic in thought and temperment. Now, everybody go raise some heck about a very homegrown danger in this attempt to end filibusters and change our courts, laws, and constitution.