Question for Catholics: How do you feel about the new Pope?

[MoonRiver]

I'm not Catholic so I won't deign to judge one way or the other.

[whirlygigspin]

1. Congrats Mr. Ratzinger

[Is It Fascism Yet]

2. Rat Zinger is a Zinger of a Rat, he is a former Nazi, and has tried

to cover up sex crimes of pedophilia in the church. He thinks women are secondary humans, thinks everyone but him is going to hell. He thought Hitler's plan for genocide was a good idea, and tried to help him. He thinks condoms should be a sin but passing AIDS around is apparently okay. He is a schmuck, and he makes me very proud to have left the Catholic Crutch years ago. Poop Benedict The Nazi.

[imenja]

6. well you're obviouisly not Catholic

Or you would have bothered to find out that Nazi charge is unfounded.

[Dave Sund]

7. Well...

It's disingenuous, but not wholly inaccurate. He was a member of Hitler Youth, and a member of the German army. He deserted during a period in 1944 when many German soldiers deserted.

The main problem is that he has never apologized for what he did, he simply said that he did it to avoid getting killed. From the man who is supposed to be the holiest man in the church, expecting him to have the courage of his beliefs is not a totally unreasonable request. After all, Jesus didn't shut up because the Romans wanted him dead.

I totally understand why some people don't like the Nazi criticism. However, I think it is an important point. Men who are supposed to emulate Christ should be willing to give their life for their beliefs. It doesn't make him a bad person, necessarily, but I believe it does make him unworthy of being pope.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

8. Not unfounded at all, he was a Nazi gunner. n/t

[imenja]

10. serving in the war does not make one a Nazi

As the poster above noted, he deserted during the war. And the Israeli press has published editorials claiming he is not. So what's your problem?



Obviously my conclusion about your not being a Catholic was accurate.

[Dave Sund]

11. Well...

According to a timeline I read in the newspaper, he deserted in April of 1945 after being redrafted into the military three times. In other words, he deserted when it was apparent that they had already lost, and he was captured by U.S. forces in Germany. There have been a lot of conflicting timelines on this, but the one I read in my local paper puts the time of his desertion at the end of the war in Europe, after which he was a POW.

The relevant portions:


1941: Enrolled against his will in Hitler Youth. Dismissed shortly afterward because of his intention to study for the priesthood.

1943: Drafted as helper for anti-aircraft unit, serves in battery defending BMW plant.

Sept. 10, 1944: Dismissed from unit, but returns home to find draft notice for forced labor.

Sept. 20, 1944: Leaves home to dig anti-tank trenches.

Nov. 20, 1944: Released from labor force and returns home only to receive army draft notice three weeks later.

April-May, 1945: Deserts from army and returns home. Captured by Americans as war ends.

June 19, 1945: Released from U.S. POW camp, hitchhikes home on milk truck.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=0&u_pg=57&u_sid=1390327

[imenja]

12. Lots of Germans served in the war

They were drafted. So what?

[Dave Sund]

13. I'm only saying his desertion means nothing

He was drafted, yes. But some here have tried to say that he deserted in 1944, and that excuses him. However, since he deserted in 1945, it does not show anything, since many Germans deserted the army to avoid capture by the Americans.

I'm saying that he lacked the moral courage to stand up. And using his desertion of the Germans as a defense is wrong, since, by the time he deserted, the Allies had almost defeated the Nazis, anyway.

[imenja]

14. I think it's very easy to judge others

for their actions as very young men living under a totalitarian government that we now know to have been the most evil and ruthless to have ever existed. None of us have ever faced such circumstances. And if the Allies had lost World War II, it would be my or your grandfather having to defend their service in the American military. It would be one thing if Ratzinger had been a guard at a death camp, but he was not. He was a soldier.

Most of the Nazi charges have to do with his membership in the Hitler youth. He joined only after it became compulsory to do so, never attended meetings, and sought and received a dispensation because of his enrollment in a seminary school.

The Nazi story is nothing but an excuse for some on DU to express their hatred of Catholics. It's very clear to many of us, including some who terminated their memberships in DU today because of the proliferation of hate speech.

[Dave Sund]

15. And, yet, I'm a Catholic

Who believes this man's association with the fascist organization Opus Dei, and his other anti-reformist views are very dangerous to the cause of social justice. His Nazi ties are a secondary concern, but they show something telling: this is a man, studying for the priesthood, who would not stand up for the less fortunate because it meant he would lose his own life. It's human, yes, and I suspect that many in the same position would -- and did -- make the same decision. And I imagine that he's still troubled by the cause he helped back then. But the fact remains that good Christian men and women during that time stood up to the Nazis. Some were martyred for their beliefs. John Paul II was a member of the resistance in Poland. For someone who is supposed to emulate Jesus Christ and be the apostolic heir to Peter, two men who were crucified for their beliefs, this is a man who was afraid to die for his. It doesn't make him a bad person, but I don't believe it makes him worthy of the papacy.

[imenja]

16. He certainly would not have been my choice either

but sadly we have no say in the matter. I was very much hoping a Latin American would be chosen, Hummes perhaps.

[autorank]

69. Dave, you're rokken!!!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

17. You bet your buttons I am not a Catholic, and so proud of it.

Look, when I call the man a Nazi I am not calling him anything he didn't call himself. He was a Nazi, he was a member of the Nazi party, he did his part to help Hitler exterminate millions of people, and yes, being a Nazi gunner and calling yourself a Nazi makes you a Nazi. If you don't think that makes him a Nazi, pray tell, exactly what is your definition of Nazi? He is also a protector of pedophiles, and if you are not aware of the fact that he was the one, the very same one who recommended that democratic catholics be denyed sacrements, then you are only showing your ignorance, and you should educate yourself, because google is at your fingertips and it is so, despite your abundant ignorance. This egocentric falsely pious little jerk of a Poop has the nerve to say people of other religions will be going to hell? You must be kidding, for, hell is soley populated with his hypocritical kind. Sorry you don't like the fact that the egocentric Rat Zinger is/was a Nazi, neither do I, but, by his own admission, he was a Nazi. Now, lets address the issue of his regrets, which he seems to have none of, never even having said he regretted his role in the holocaust. No, I am not a Catholic, nor a Nazi either, although Rat Zinger, the Nazi Poop, is clearly both.

[imenja]

18. self delete

attempting to exercise restraint

[imenja]

19. what about your role in mass graves in Guatemala?

El Salvador, Chile, and Argentina. And the deaths in Iraq? As Americans, our tax dollars went to fund that. You and I are every bit as responsible for those murders as Ratzinger is for those carried out by the Nazis.

So if you are at all interested in anything but hate mongering (which I realize is highly unlikely), I suggest you inform yourself to at least a minimal extent.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

21. Not only did I not personally take part in the events you mention, but I

am also willing to freely admit that they were wrong, they were done against my will, I am very sorry they happened and very sorry for the vitims. I have protested loudly against these events, and done everything in my power to prevent them. However, I hasten to add, the guilt of knowing about bad things that have happened is not nearly as heavy as the guilt of having participated in creating those events, as Rat Zinger did. You are quite the spinster, to turn the truth and call me a hate monger, when Rat Zinger is the self proclaimed Nazi! My only crime was to draw it to you less than astute attention. Thank god I am not a Catholic, you all dwell in this a while, I am so glad I get none of it.

[imenja]

23. He did not participate in the holocaust

He was not a "self proclaimed" Nazi. He was drafted into the German army and deserted. He was forced to join the Hitler Youth but never attended meetings, and sought and received a dispensation to vacate his membership based on his status as a seminary student. Your
points are simply factually inaccurate. There is information in this thread that shows your argument to be wrong, yet you ignore it.


It's very clear to me the appointment of Ratzinger is simply an opportunity for you and some others on DU to engage in hate mongering. You are evidently completely uninterested in learning about his background but instead delight in the opportunity to express intolerance. This continues a long legacy
of anti-Catholic nativism in this country.

This is a transparent ruse, and you aren't fooling anyone. Your pretense of taking a moral high ground here is far from convincing. We see exactly what you are doing.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

24. Yes, he did. Which word in "Nazi Gunner" don't you get? N/T

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[imenja]

30. I rest my case

[Is It Fascism Yet]

31. Promises, promises

would you please give it a rest? what a good idea! LOL! The Poop is a Nazi.

[imenja]

33. and what does that make you?

Far far worse, that much is evident. You exposed yourself quite clearly. What could I say that would top your own hateful, ignorant statements? I prefer not to try.

[readmoreoften]

34. Far worse than a Nazi?

What's that a double-triple Nazi?

[imenja]

35. well I couldn't come up with a hateful enough of a term

but the fact is that poster has demonstrate a level of hatred that Ratzinger never has. That was the extent of my point.

[readmoreoften]

38. Just curious

Do you think this poster hates Ratzinger more than Ratzinger hates me? Or is it not hate if you speak vitriol in a calm, rationalizing manner.

[imenja]

40. he hates me

and 2 billion other people in the world. Ratzinger does not hate you. As a devout Catholic, he believes all of God's children worthy of love and Grace. He is, however, an old man with outmoded ideas about homosexuality and homosexual relationships in particular. He could hardly hate homosexuals, however, since there would be no one left in the priesthood. This poster is seemingly unconcerned with the Church's position on homosexuality. He prefers to hurl epithets that he is a Nazi. Not a good candidate for a vacation to Germany.

[readmoreoften]

43. So hate is about emotions not actions then.

So I am not hated, I am dehumanized. Would you say that people who organized against desegregation under the aegis of separate but equal (blacks are bad, we just want separation from) were not hateful, they were just operating from outmoded ideas.

It's still hate, just not vitriolic. It's banal hate which is even harder to fight.

Maybe hate isn't the most dangerous thing. Maybe dehumanization is.

[imenja]

63. language can express hate

Do you dispute that? You no doubt object to bigotry expressed against from various elements in society. As do I. Hatred is by definition dehumanizing. That is its purpose.

Now if you are asking what I believe, I thought I made that clear. I support second class citizenship for no one, and certainly not gay men and women. I myself see no sin in homosexuality. If God did not want people to be gay, he would have made us all heterosexual.

As for the Pope, do you really see no difference between someone who renounces the practice of homosexuality--misguided as that position is, yet maintains friendships with gay men, and another who says you are eternally damned, bans you from church, employment, and anything else they can? Do you see it as all the same?

I have no doubt that you feel hated, and I certainly understand why. Homophobic rhetoric is dangerous. I can tell you, however, that the Pope himself does not feel hatred for you. And if Ratzinger's ideas are not outmoded, what are they? Certainly not progressive. We can only hope that now he is Pope he receives some divine inspiration that causes him to see the error of his earlier denunciations.

[maddiejoan]

53. Being Jewish

I'll try and be diplomatic as an outsider to this.

Best post I've read on this so far is Imenja's. Calling Ratzinger a Nazi is "Ghettoizing" (excuse the pun) his horrific history as a fascist to only Nazi Germany.

Look at what the man does now! This is what's at issue.
He promotes hatred of homosexuals.
He protects child molestors.
He intervenes in United States politics (He told his "children" that a vote for Kerry would send them to hell)

Why time travel?

[readmoreoften]

55. That's a good point.

I have no idea on whether or not he was ever a Nazi, but whether or not he is inclined towards behaving in fascististic ways is yet to be determined.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

42. Worse? How? I am not a nazi, and also I have not attacked you

but, you display the typical christian response to disagreement, and atttack me. Buzz of kiddo, you bore me.

[fishwax]

50. where did he call himself a nazi

I haven't seen any evidence of that or of him actually joining the nazi party rather than the hitler youth, but if it's out there I'd like to see it.

[readmoreoften]

52. Do you have to call yourself a nazi to be one?

There's arguments to be made on both sides. I'm sure there aren't a lot of Ratzinger quotes during this time period since he was a nobody then.

But here is one argument that Ratzinger did not have to align himself with the HJs....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3512353

[fishwax]

67. Of course not. I was responding to a post thar claimed he had, though

so I asked for clarification. Frankly, I just care about the truth, and there seems to be a fair amount of misinformation or mischaracterization coming from both sides.

Clearly he was a member of the Hitler youth, and I think it's clearly incorrect to say he didn't have a choice in the matter, since there WERE people who chose to resist. I've made that argument several times over the last couple of days.

But it's also not supported by evidence that I've seen to say that he called himself a nazi or that he joined the nazi party, though if there's documentation of such I'd be glad to see it. So I was just asking for clarification.

(edited for clarity)

[foreigncorrespondent]

56. Okay!

So according to you, those of us on the left should forgive his past sins, further to that, accept this CONSERVATIVE drop kick as someone who is supposed to be the holiest of them all? Well you talking to a brick wall here, love. Not one queer person needs to accept this bigoted old bastard as anything but being a bigoted old bastard!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

71. Exactly so, N/T

[Is It Fascism Yet]

9. Not unfounded at all, he was a Nazi gunner. n/t

[Tinoire]

41. Laughing my fucking ass off. A Nazi Gunner?

Why don't you just tell us he was dropping ZyklonB down chimneys next :)

"I see stupid people...

they're everywhere...

they walk around like everyone else...

they don't even know that they're dumb"

[Dave Sund]

3. Of the many reasons I believe he is a terrible choice...

His connection to Opus Dei and his cover-up of pedophilia in the church trouble me the most.

[Jack_DeLeon]

4. From the first picture I saw of him as Pope....

he didnt look right to me, however the only Pope I've ever known was John Paul II, so maybe its just because of that.

Other than my first superficial reaction I honestly dont know enough about the man or his policies to have made any real decision about him.

I know alot of people on these boards are automatically hating on him because he is considered a "conservative," but that in and of itself in this case means little to me.

[readmoreoften]

26. why does his conservativism mean little to you?

This means that he is going to prevent women all over the world from getting birth control, continue to tell Africans that condoms cause AIDS, and he suggest the boycotting of any Catholic politicans who are pro-choice or who favor civil unions for gays.

[wellst0nev0ter]

5. Personally I'd Rather Have Pope John XII

You know, the one who died while committing adultery

[LTR]

28. Or Leo VIII

Died while banging another man's wife.

The celibacy thing didn't become rule in the church until the 13th century.

[Dulcinea]

20. The Catholic Church has no guts.

They must know their strength is in the Third World, so why not elect Cardinal Arinze or one of the South American or Central American cardinals? Are they afraid that Americans (and American money) would be alienated by a non-Caucasian pope?

I think they lost out on a big chance to go in a new direction, but I'm not surprised by it. As my mother always says, "The Church is slow to change." That's a copout! They don't change because they don't have to! There are enough people who will gladly accept the Catholic Church's authoritarianism, so it goes merrily along, closing its eyes to reality, disregarding the will of many of the faithful, maintaining the status quo. I don't expect the Church to change significantly in my lifetime, but I can't accept their unwillingness to face reality!

I say this as a lapsed Catholic who is likely to remain so.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

22. Congratulations from another recovered Catholic n/t

[Nobody]

27. Consensus from the Catholics at work

They all hate him. One woman is deeply religious and she hoped for a pope from South America.

She also is angry about how the Catholic Church is throwing away a golden opportunity to alleviate the priest shortage by ordaining women and married people.

She brought to my attention a bishop from Montana who, when in an audience with JPII and asked about women, said that without women he wouldn't have a church. Seems his whole congregation was female and the men showed up maybe twice a year.

She can't stand Ratzinger and wasn't thrilled with JPII either.

We had a wonderful discussion about church history. Check out Ireland sometime. Ireland in the 600s was a progressive paradise, some of it even by today's standards.

[bklyncowgirl]

32. He's a lousy choice but I expected no better. nt

[readmoreoften]

36. 20% of DUers think GLBT people are part of an ideology of evil.

Or are completely okay with this idea representing their beliefs.


The claim that NO Catholic DUers are anti-gay rights can be put to rest now. According to this poll, one in five Catholics on DU oppose the rights of women and GLBT people.

Thanks to the 80% of you who don't, but please try to understand where we're coming from if we don't assume that we have your support.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

39. Thanks for trusting when your cardinals say I'm evil!

:shrug:

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

61. No. It does. You can't have it both ways.

You are not exempt from having an individual conscience.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arcos]

62. That sounds like Britney Spears in F911...

Why do you trust 115 Cardinals more than your own opinion? Do you also trust Bush more than you? Congress?


???

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

44. OMFG... Over 20% Of "Progressives" Think He's A Good Choice??

Are you people nuts? This is absolutely INSANE!! Does someone's history not count for anything as a indicator of likely future behavior?

When people ask me who it is I'm talking about when I say I have problems with those who blindly support the church's policies... at least NOW i have a percentage I can refer back to.

That's just ASTOUNDING! It's like a abused wife who keeps returning to her violent husband... and making excuses for him. "He doesn't mean it. That's just the way he is when he gets mad. You just don't understand him. He's really good on the inside. Why... he even opposed the WAR!"

How much MORE backward and regressive and anti-intellectual and anti-woman, and anti-gay, and anti-science do you really think the church ought to be?

How long before YOU'VE had enough too?

[readmoreoften]

45. Now we're at 23% of DU catholics consider us evil. Good to know.

So let's put to rest this "if a Catholic is on DU you can rest assure s/he's on your side" nonsense.

[readmoreoften]

46. 6% are neutral on women's reproductive rights and

the dignity of GLBT people.

[readmoreoften]

sorry, 10% are neutral.

So we are at 1/3 of DU Catholics do not actively support GLBT people.

[arwalden]

51. I Call It "Silent Consent" ... "Tacit Approval"

[readmoreoften]

54. Or possibly vocal approval.

They might just not voice their antigay sentiments on DU while being quite vocal within the Catholic community. They may also vote against us on marriage amendments, etc. too. I won't assume that because people are quiet here doesn't mean they aren't vocal elsewhere.

[arwalden]

57. Most Of The Fundies Are Smart Enough NOT To Be So Blatant On DU...

... they whisper among themselves. And in the privacy of the voting booth, the total number of ANTI-GAY votes tell the real story. These majority anti-gay votes didn't just appear out of thin air or by republicans voting twice. The hate you're feeling comes from within these very walls. The stealth bigots are all around us.

They'd just as soon shoot you as look at you. At least with Republicans you know where you stand... it's that 22% of stealth bigots who smile in your face but stab you in your back that you have to watch out for.

-- Allen

PS: Before this message gets alerted on by someone who can't read and tries to claim that I'm making threats... the words "shoot you" and "stab you" are figures of speech, and in both cases it's the homos who are the assumed targets... so get your panties out of a bunch and move on to the next thread.

[readmoreoften]

58. Yes, I so much prefer honest foes to false friends. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

64. The residents of the village of Dachau gave their "silent consent"

and "tacit approval" to the horrors in the concentration camp near their homes and farms.

It's a comforting thought to see the same characteristics in people we thought were liberal and progressive!

[arwalden]

72. You Make An Excellent Point...

... and one that's frequently overlooked by the folks who are able to compartmentalize and isolate (and ignore) the reality of what's actually going on.

The blinders and the "but-it's-not-happening-in-my-parish" philosophy are not helping. The "look-the-other-way" philosophy and the laissez-faire attitude only serve to enable.

[many a good man]

47. Benedict will destroy the RCC just like * destroys US

The Church's drastic decline in America and Europe during JPII's reign will accelerate. Third World membership will also start dropping off precipitously because he demands total obedience to psychotic Augustinian notions of sexuality and war, ignoring things like poverty and disease.

* can singlehandedly ruin a 200 year old experiment in democracy and Ratzinger can equally destroy a 2000 year old institution.

[readmoreoften]

48. It is strange that now the leader of the most affluent country

in the world and the leader of the world's larger religion are on the same page. The world is under the spell of something terrible.

[CBHagman]

49. Other. I was disappointed at the choice, but...

...I can only predict what he will do, not say with certainty. So I will be watching and praying and trying to get more involved with the church. I am Catholic and genuinely concerned about people being driven out of the church or divisions building up within it.

By the way, MyPetRock, am I the only one who finds the slogan "Say yes to Wes" vaguely spicy?

[readmoreoften]

59. Any Ratzinger Supporter Courageous Enough to Admit

that they support his policy on GLBT people?

[Dorian Gray]

68. Other...

I'm biding my time to see how he handles himself. No pre-judging his papacy. He has a clean slate, and I hope that he does a good job. So, no opinion of him as a Pope yet. (I'm hopeful that the papacy will temper his personality a bit. The job has been known to change people!)

[Catholic Sensation]

70. some people here were willing to throw gays to the fire if it meant Kerry

beating Bush. One supposed liberal said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Dems should not only support laws preventing homosexual marriage, but should also start proposing these laws. I think maybe liberals need to focus on getting homophobia out of their ideology before demanding that an institution that has had the same views on homosexuality change its almost 1700 year old views on the matter (I start the Roman Catholic lineage when Rome accepted Christianity, not when Christ told Peter to build his church upon this rock).

I support this Pope because I love my church, and take great pride in the fact that my church opposed the Iraq War, loathes the death penalty, and goes by the "to each according to his needs" economic policy. Until this Pope reverses these areas of the church, he will have support. And it's damned foolish to believe that the Vatican, WHICH USES THE BIBLE AS ITS GUIDE BOOK ON MORAL ISSUES, would elect a Pope whose views go against the official rule book as it were.