The Truth about Pope Benedict 16 and the Nazi's (he wasn't one)

[Xithras]

Pope Benedict the 16th was never a Nazi.

Yes, you heard that right. Despite the disinformation spreading through the media, this, and other boards on the Internet, Ratzinger was never a Nazi.

Joseph Ratzinger's father was a German policeman and anti-Nazi before WWII. Convinced of the evilness of Naziism and because of conflicts with Nazi officials, Ratzingers father moved the family into hiding several times to avoid Gestapo interest in his out-spokenness. That outspokenness was hammered home when the Nazi's killed Ratzingers mentally disabled first-cousin, labelling him as an "undesireable".

In 1941, when Ratzinger was 14 years old, the leadership of the local Hitler Youth branch discovered that the Ratzingers weren't obeying the compulsory membership laws and forced he and his brother to join the organization. It's important to point out here that HY membership did NOT entail joining the Nazi party or taking an oath allegience, because in Nazi Germany only adults of voting age could join political parties. While in the Hitler Youth, Ratzinger sang songs, went camping, hiked around a lot, learned to shoot, and listened to the same long lectures about German and Nazi superiority that every other German had to put up with. He was let out after only a few months when he announced his intentions to join the seminary.

In 1943 the German government removed and conscripted all of the older boys in his seminary, and the now 16 year old Ratzinger was sent to serve as an assistant on an anti-aircraft gun guarding a BMW factory. His job was to fill sandbags, polish searchlights, clean equipment, and do whatever other gruntwork the gunners requested to keep the gun operating. He never fired a shot himself. After a short stint at the antiaircraft gun, Ratzinger was forcibly sent to the Austria-Hungary border where he was made to manually dig trenches used in the contruction of tank traps. Again, there was no weapons, shooting, or Nazi promotion involved. He was a KID, and people pointing guns at him demanded that he polish their guns and dig their holes. Like most kids when their lives are threatened, he complied.

In April 1945 he was conscripted into the Wehrmacht, or the regular German Army upon turning 18. The Wehrmacht had a long history going back to the 1800's and Wehrmacht soldiers were no more all-Nazi than modern US Army members are all-Republicans. As a draftee, Ratzinger went through standard basic training before being reassigned to a station near his hometown. After spending one action-free month sitting in his station, he dropped his gun and walked home.

Ratzinger may be an irritatingly fundamentalist theologian and the last thing that many of us wanted to see in charge of the Catholic Church, but these "Ratzinger was a Nazi" threads really have to stop. He never joined the Nazi party, never expressed any support for their ideals, and only performed perfunctory service for the German government as required by law. He's no different than our own Vietnam vets in that regard.

[Bunny]

1. One point:

You wrote, and I added the bold-face:

In April 1945 he was conscripted into the Wehrmacht, or the regular German Army upon turning 18. The Wehrmacht had a long history going back to the 1800's and Wehrmacht soldiers were no more all-Nazi than modern US Army members are all-Republicans. As a draftee, Ratzinger went through standard basic training before being reassigned to a station near his hometown. After spending one action-free month sitting in his station, he dropped his gun and walked home.

Wasn't the war over in early May, 1945? If he joined in April 1945, spent a month in training and at his station, wouldn't the war have been over by that time? Dropping his gun at that point doesn't seem especially noteworthy.

Also, where are you gettng your information from? Do you have a link?

[Endangered Specie]

2. The European theatre war ended on 5-9 May

5 May was the surrender of most the armed forces
V-E day is either May 8 or May 9 depending on how you look at it.

[Bunny]

7. That's what I thought.

I read elsewhere that he "deserted" the German military, and this was being offered as mitigating evidence of his non-Nazi status.
Walking away from your post when the war was over is not all that heroic.

[Xithras]

6. He was in Bavaria

Bavaria wasn't occupied at the end of the war because it wasn't strategic to ending the war. Ratzinger left his post several weeks before the American's arrived, and spent nearly as much time as a deserter as he did a soldier.

The thing is, the Gestapo was still active in Bavaria right up until the end of the war, and as a result of deserting spent several weeks of his life waking up every morning and wondering if THIS was going to be the day that the Gestapo caught and executed him.

The point was that his "service" consisted of spending about a month sitting guard in a badly fitting Wehrmacht uniform at a remote station in an unimportant part of Germany, until he finally got sick of it and walked off. NOTHING about his service is particularly noteworthy, and certainly none of it earns him the Nazi appellation.

[arwalden]

11. Odd...

<< Also, where are you gettng your information from? Do you have a link? >>

I was wondering the same thing.

[ProgressiveConn]

3. He was a collaborator.

Nazi collaborators should not hold positions of power anywhere at any time. What this shows is that the Catholic church needs to be democratized immediately.

[Xithras]

10. No, he wasn't.

The definition of collaborator is a person who works with an occupying power to oppress his own countrymen. Based on that, it's impossible for ANY German to be labelled a collaborator because the Nazi's weren't an occupying force.

But even beyond that, I fail to see how he collaborated. He never assisted in the arrest, execution, or opression of any other human being. He never voted for a Nazi. He never supported the Nazi's. He simply complied with the laws of his homeland under threat of death.

By your logic, the Jews in the work-camps and factories were collaborators because the equipment they made bolstered the Wehrmachts strength. The threat was the same...obey or die.

[Maru Kitteh]

24. Why have you not supplied that link yet?

Many would like to know the source of your information.

[Ediacara]

30. He could have objected

It's true objection would mean a prison camp, but I don't sympathize much with a Hitler Youth Nazi soldier who only decides to desert when it looks like the Nazis are on the brink of losing.

[ProgressiveConn]

38. Any Jews who carried arms and held positions of authority in the Nazi

system would no doubt be collaborators. Even if they did it for one day. He carried a weapon in service of the most brutal political force in the history of man kind. And this man is appointed the closest person to god on the planet? FUCK THAT! Hear me? FUCK THAT!

Most certainly the Nazis were an occupying force in Germany. Guess those millions got to the death camps themselves...

[Clovis Sangrail]

15. that's silly

What this shows is that the Catholic church needs to be democratized immediately

The church is not a government, it's a private "club".

If they want to be democratic, that's their business.
If they want to choose a leader based on nose hair length, that's also their business.

If you don't like the way the church is run, and your a member of it, quit and tell them why.
If you're not a member of it, you have no say in whether they democratize( not that you have much more as a member ).

[ProgressiveConn]

42. Actually the Catholic Church is a government and the Pope is head of state

Thanks for playing though.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/vt.html

[ChemEng]

46. You are sick....n/t

4. Isn't he in Opus Dei?

In my opinion, nazi's and opus dei are essentially the same as far as being fascists.

[Zenlitened]

5. No, but he was a good learner.

Edited to add: And it certainly doesn't seem to have taught him any humility. Nor any lessons about singling groups out for demonization.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. None of this is particularly inspiring

or is fitting of the background of a truly great man or leader. To the contrary, if all there is to the background of this guy is what you have presented, I would say that he set himself up for an ordinary life of "going along to get along" which appears to be what he has done his whole life. Not very impressive, rather sad and shabby actually.

[Boomer]

13. Has he issued any kind of apology or remorse?

Senator Byrd has often expressed remorse for his early involvement in the KKK, and worked hard to erase that experience with a lengthy legacy of progressive social politics.

So how has Ratzinger dealt with his past? Has he learned anything from his supposedly involuntary servitude in the German military?

He witnessed at least some measure of misery when he was guarding facilities that used forced labor. Has that experience informed any of his views, motivated any of his actions in later life?

If it hasn't, then I really have to wonder just how irrelevant that history may be when the man is chosen to be pope. How much of his conservatism and iron fisted control of church doctrine is rooted in the authoritarian fascism of the Nazi government.

[Xithras]

20. Yes

First, he doesn't actually have that much to be remorseful for...unlike Byrd and the KKK, Ratzinger was never actually a member or supporter of the Nazi party.

Second, in his autobiography, Ratzinger wrote extensively on the evils of Naziism, his hatred for what they did, and his distaste for what they made him do as a kid. He has no "past" to be remorseful for, but pulls no punches when it comes to describing the Nazi's as the most evil organization to ever exist in Europe.

[Boomer]

40. I was willing to believe you, until....

This strong repudiation of the Nazis sounded plausible, until I read comments by Michael Fox on JPII and Razinger's

"...prolonged effort to render fascism fashionable. This includes the rushing into canonization of the card-carrying fascist priest who founded the Opus Dei movement even though this man actually praised Adolf Hitler and also denounced women and has been accused of sexual abuse of six young men who are alive today."

For the record, "Fox, a Dominican liberation theologian, was told by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the successor to the Holy Inquisition) to renounce his views about God, about the Catholic Church, about sexuality, the status of women in the Church, and married priests. He refused, and that refusal meant that he could no longer teach or seek tenure in a Catholic university or school. He was also defrocked by the Dominican Order, but the Episcopal Church took him in."

From Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/4/5/22241/48006

[Inland]

44. Well, that's simply bizarre

to wonder if conservativism and iron fisted control of doctrine is rooted in authoritarian fascism, when it is obviously rooted in an authoritarian church. Top down, doctrinal control, approved teachings, early indoctrination, is RC. Why, when you say "priesthood", it isn't even a metaphor.

The difference between the two is that one is a government, and one isn't. One sends people to camps, the other sends them to a different church. One matters to me, the other to catholics.

[theHandpuppet]

9. Let's hear a bit more about the Munich BMW factory

... and how it was the hub of some of the most secret of Nazi weapons development and used thousands of prisoners of war and concentration camp prisoners from Dachau as their forced labor.

It wasn't cute little cars they were making at that factory. It's the glossing over of facts like this that is really pissing the hell outta me.

And from gauging Ratzinger's fascist, misogynic and homophobic views, I can see his stint in the Hitler Youth served him well. You would think that someone who participated in the horrors of the Reich, conscripted or not, would have learned something from that experience.

[arwalden]

12. Careful... You'll Be Accused Of Being A Catholic Basher.

For many here, if you criticize or express disapproval, you're a "basher".

Just thought I'd let ya know.

[theHandpuppet]

16. Well, as a gay person...

... Ratzinger has already condemed me to hell, so being called a "basher" where Ratzinger is concerned is not much of a threat. :D

[Xithras]

14. He oiled guns and polished lights

Yes, many evil things occurred at that plant, but he didn't have anything to do with that, and wasn't even allowed inside. He was a 16 year old child-inductee who performed maintenance tasks on one gun outside of the factory. He was so low that he didn't even have a rank.

Surely you're not blaming him for what went on inside?

[FredScuttle]

17. Call him a "little Eichmann"?

Nah!!!!

[ClintonTyree]

18. Could you provide a source...

for all of this information you're posting? I'm not accusing you of anything, I'd just like to make my own judgments. Link? Thanks.

[theHandpuppet]

19. No, I blame him for learning nothing from the experience

His intolerance, his misogyny, his homophobia, his dictatorial methods et al tell me that he gaimed nothing from being a first-hand witness to evil and intolerance.

[Xithras]

22. That's fair. I'm just talking about his past

Look, I don't like the guy either, but these accusations of Naziism are just silly. They don't hold up to historical scrutiny, and they distract from the real issues that people should be arguing over.

[Bunny]

21. Again, where are you getting your information

Do you have a link?

[theHandpuppet]

23. I'm still waiting as well

And I'd prefer something other than Ratzinger's word for it.

[Bunny]

25. Yes, I'm starting to get a little annoyed that the OP has found

time to respond to many other posts in this thread, yet can't be bothered to cite his/her source, despite being asked at least four times for the source. It's tedious.

[Xithras]

27. I get annoyed that people can't do their own homework.

A partial link list is posted elsewhere, but as I said, most of this information is readily available to anyone who wants to spend a few minutes looking it up.

He was Wehrmacht, not SS. He wasn't a Nazi.

Do you have any relatives who were Vietnam vets? Do you blame them for the war? It's the same thing.

[Bunny]

28. You made the initial post, it's up to YOU to cite your sources

and back up your claims! It's not my job to do your research - surely you know that. Where do you get off telling me to research your claims?

My kid's father is a Vietnam Vet - Marines, Force Recon 69-70, Purple Heart. Of course he is not to blame for that little war, but then, he's not the spiritual leader of 1 billion people. He's also not a misogynistic homophobe who poo-poohs pedophiles, either.

[Xithras]

29. I did.

Are you saying that being drafted somehow "corrupts" a person for life and makes them unfit to hold any high office? I'm sorry, but my view has ALWAYS been that draftees are victims of war, not perpetrators. Ratzinger was a draftee who never even saw combat...to attack him for THAT is silly, and suggests that draftees are somehow responsible for the wars they are forced to fight in.

Unlike JPII, Ratzinger was a German citizen, and dodging the draft would have meant a quick execution at the hands of the Gestapo. He did nothing that he should be ashamed of.

[Bunny]

33. Yes, you did. Finally. And then reprimanded me for not doing

it for you. :eyes:

Frankly, I don't really care what Pope Ratzinger did when he was 14. I care much more about what he's done since, and I'm not seeing a lot of progressive ideals in him. He doesn't seem to have learned from his experience in an oppressive regime, in fact, he seems determined to carry out one of his own.

[Xithras]

34. And I AGREE WITH YOU on that

Look, as a bisexual Catholic, I fucking HATE this guy, but to call him a Nazi over and over and over and basically accuse him of bearing a level of responsibility equal to that of an SS officer, a Gestapo agent, or a concentration camp guard is just stupid!

Attack this guy for what he is TODAY, not for some mythical past that supposedly happened 50+ years ago! He WASN'T a Nazi, and making these groundless accusations against him just makes US look bad.

[Bunny]

36. Okay - I can go along with that!

:thumbsup:

[Xithras]

26. Re: Links

I've actually spent most of the day researching his past, ever since another thread was posted by me about calling him a Nazi this morning. Most of the information that I posted here can be pulled up by a simple Google search, but here are just a few of the links:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/19/world/main689498.shtml
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200504/s1349102.htm
http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0504/17/relig-152282.htm
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19376016.htm
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-boy-soldiers.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Cardinal_Ratzinger

There were a bunch more, but these are the links I still had browser windows open for. As I said, everything I posted can be easily looked up via Google.

[theHandpuppet]

31. To be precise...

... of the links you provided, only one was specific about the duties of Hitler Youth in the AA service. In that article, it stated that Hitler Youth were used to man the guns, while the younger boys among them (14 and under) mostly dealt with lights and communication. Since Ratzinger was 17 at the time, I would assume his duties included more than just "polishing lights".

[Xithras]

41. His title was "assistant"

If he'd fired the guns, his title would have been "gunner". Believe it or not, the Wehrmacht actually did make some accomodations for religious beliefs (many pre-Nazi policies were never eliminated), so it's unlikely that they would have forced a seminarian to kill people...at that stage of the war, anyway.

His duties may have indeed included more than polishing lights...he might have loaded ammo belts, polished hardware, zeroed sights, or stood guard around the gun, but if he had actually operated the weapon he would have carried a different title.

Also, it's extremely unlikely that a gunner would have been reassigned to dig ditches.

[Ariana Celeste]

32. Do you mind if I share this?

Thanks for this, I appreciate your rational look at the facts.


:hi:

[Xithras]

37. On left wing boards only

I'm not interested in seeing my writings show up in freeperland :)

[Ariana Celeste]

39. Lol. No problem.

Thanks. Really I just want a liberal friend of mine to see it; she is very emotionally charged up about this.

[BuyingThyme]

35. It looks like all of the Ratzinger defense is coming directly from

his autobiography.

He seems to use the same strategies as governor Arnold did. (I know nothing; I saw nothing.)

Go figure.

[Tinoire]

45. But just where is this sudden offense coming from?

Two weeks ago only a very few people at DU knew who Ratzinger was. All of a sudden, people are repeating the same talking points.

Just where are the same people who don't know how hard his father fought against the Nazis suddenly getting their information on Ratzinger's life?

:shrug:

[Xenolith]

43. "This is Pope Benedict XVI, and I just want to forgive all those who are

calling me a Nazi. Now go say 10 Heil Mary's and 20 Our Fuhrers as an act of contrition."

[LittleClarkie]

47. Found this in a bio, regarding his autobiography

"In his memoirs, the new Pope wrote that he was enrolled in the Nazi youth movement against his will when he was 14 in 1941, when membership was compulsory. He said he was soon let out because of his studies for the priesthood.

Two years later he was drafted into a Nazi anti-aircraft unit as a helper, a common task for teenage boys too young to be soldiers. A year later he was released, only to be sent to the Austrian-Hungarian border to construct tank barriers.

He deserted the Germany army in May, 1945, and returned to Traunstein — a risky move, since deserters were shot on the spot if caught, or publicly hanged as examples to others.

When he arrived home, U.S. soldiers took him prisoner and held him in a POW camp for several weeks. Upon his release, he re-entered the seminary."