The Pope is not JUST a religious leader

[lastliberalintexas]

The Vatican has been a recognized state for many years, and is accorded many of the same rights and privileges of other states/countries in the various international organizations. For instance, the Vatican has a seat at the UN, although it is admittedly not one as powerful as that of the US or other Security Council members. Indeed, it is the only religion I know of whose headquarters has such a distinction. If I am mistaken, please point me to the other countries which constitute nothing more than the hierarchy of a religious organization. I know the SBC is pretty powerful in Nashville, but even that city (and Tennessee) have secularly elected governments. So even that would be apples to oranges.

I've seen many posts by people who argue that the Pope is just a religious leader and we shouldn't attack him for his past actions or even current beliefs. Well, regardless of how one feels about his actions or beliefs, the Pope isn't *just* a religious leader. He is also a head of state, and is subject to criticism just as people like Mugabe, Milosovic, Blair, Chavez and Castro are. Or even *gasp* George W. Bush. Should the criticisms be factually accurate? Of course. But a criticism of the Pope is no different than a criticism of Bush. Both are world leaders, both are heads of state, and both have the ability to shape world policy by virtue of their political positions.


For those who either don't believe me or didn't know that the Vatican is its own country, with its own army, etc., links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761551674/Vatican_City.html


As much as Falwell and his ilk would like to have the power of the Pope, they do not. So I find it ironic that some people on DU are arguing that it's ok to criticize the Falwells and Robertsons of the world, but not the Pope who holds so much more power. :crazy:

The Vatican has lobbied against, outright opposed and threatened to boycott certain treaties or conferences on environmental issues if contraception was so much as mentioned in relation to overpopulation issues. Rio, anyone? As powerful as some other religions and religious leaders are, they do not have that ability, because they are not member states to some of the international organizations. The Vatican is.


There are many Catholics who understand how important this distinction among religions is, and have called for a change to the status of the Vatican.

http://www.seechange.org/media/101600WorldMarch.htm

http://www.seechange.org/media/Catholics%20bid%20to%20strip%20Vatican%20of%20statehood%208%2029%2099.htm

But I guess those Catholics for a Free Choice are really just anti-Catholic, right? :)

[Zenlitened]

1. Good post. :)

:thumbsup:

[Placebo]

2. Oh c'mon.

It's the smallest country in the world. Get real.

[Canuckistanian]

11. ..and has a birth rate of 0.00%

No women's suffrage, either.

[Maple]

3. Well there are complaints

on here everytime the royal family is mentioned, yet the Queen is not only head of state for many countries, but is also the head of the Anglican church.

Yet posts are dismissed as tabloid gossip.

They are all important positions in the world, and it affects millions when one dies or misbehaves or whatever.

[CBGLuthier]

4. The Vatican UN membership is over-stated.

They have permanent observer status. Which technically doesn't exist but the important thing is, they do not have a vote.

Which puts them below not only the security council members but also the general assembly.

Permanent Observer status is a matter of custom; there is no provision for it in the UN Charter. The custom originated in 1946, when Switzerland named a "permanent observer" to the UN and the UN secretary general accepted this designation.10 To become a Permanent Observer, a state must be a member of at least one specialized agency of the UN system (such as the International Atomic Energy Agency), must be "generally recognized" by UN member states, and must apply to the UN secretary general for the status.


Permanent Observers cannot vote in the General Assembly, but as a matter of custom they have full access to meetings and documents. Permanent Observers may address the General Assembly and participate in its debates.




http://www.seechange.org/faq.htm

[lastliberalintexas]

8. Yes, but it is membership

And it is still more than other religions have. The Observer Status is also what has enabled the Vatican to torpedo various environmental treaties and summits, or at least certain provisions of them. The Vatican has acted like the political organization it is, and thus should be treated like any other. While it is a religious organization to its followers, it's also a political entity which can affect us all.

[Inland]

5. Another straw man.

Nobody says, leave the pope alone because he is only a religious leader.

I note you were able to put out all these facts, and nobody is saying you can't debate them.

Now, if you had done what some posters do--call Pope Ratz a pedophile, or a Nazi, or even have the viceral "fuck ratzinger", or declare that religion is by nature a force of evil in the world, or imply that contributing to the Church is the same as contributing to the Nazi party------well, then, I might say that is, well, anti catholic, because it is, and needlessly insulting to liberal democrats who happen to be catholic, like, oh, Kennedy or Kerry or a bunch of others, and contrary to the purpose of a liberal democratic board, which it also is.

But by all means, let's talk about those intern. compacts, since the vatican has NOT been helpful and that DOES make a difference. Give teh fucking smoke signals a rest.

[Boomer]

7. Right, he's not a pedophile

He just PROTECTS pedophiles.

That's an important distinction for a pope.

[Inland]

9. At least you recognize it as a distinction. Good for you.

Anybody wants to discuss the church's failure to prosecute pedophilia, go to it. It's against the law, despicable, and enough have suffered.

Anybody who wants to link that to Ratzinger, have at it. He's a prine of the church and responsible for governance.

Anyone who wants to tell me that Ratizinger is a proven pedophile is a liar.

See the difference?

[Boomer]

10. No argument from me

I've never accused him of being a pedophile, or even of being a Nazi. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that issue considering there is some murkiness as to his level of participation during the war.

But his hypocrisy in actively protecting Bernard Law, while proclaiming piety and denouncing gays as evil, is mind-boggling.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Great post!

Criticism of the Pope is NOT bashing the Catholic religion or even the Church! He should not get a free pass because he is "religious." The cries of "Christian persecution" at DU is really starting to wear thin! There are a few anti-religious bigots here, but most of their posts are getting zapped pretty quick. I feel that some want all posts about religion, especially Christianity, to always be postive...that ain't gonna happen! At least I hope it doesn't!