My grandfather lost his parents & 7 brothers and sisters in the Holocaust

[sabra]

Because of chance my grandfather left Europe in the late 30's, while his family stayed and later perished in Dachau. One of the last things he told us before he past away 7 years ago (at the age of 90), is to "never forget".

There for, I don't accept the response, "he was only 14 years old, and it happened 60 years ago". Judaism, like Christianity believes in repentance, and there for I would like to know more about the new Pope. While he had no choice to join the Hitler Youth, what where his core beliefs during the time. In addition, has he come out, with statements about his past, and about the acts of the Germans during the Holocaust?

Thanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. My aunt was a child of Shoah and I don't hold that against a 14 year

old drafted child.

[sabra]

5. I agree, though with his past, I would like to know more about

his beliefs and actions...

[LynneSin]

2. Here's my two cents....

People do some dumbass stuff when they are young and from what I read with Ratzinger, Hitler Youth was pretty manditory back when he was 14. But my question is this - after Hitler was defeated and Nazism ended - has Ratzinger EVER done anything in these past 50+ years to discuss his past and possibly show remorse for what he was a part of even if it wasn't his choice to be a part of this group.

Example would be Sen. Robert Byrd who has a known history that when he was young (early 20's) he joined the KKK. I've read much about Byrd's regret for what he has done and over the years Sen. Byrd has evolved into one of the more progressive Senators in the US Senate. He's made mistakes but he learned and grew from those mistakes.

I don't know much about Ratzinger, but I think he owes it to the world and especially the Jewish community to address his past with the Hitler Youth!

[sabra]

7. Byrd

I think that is a very good example, and one that I can understand too. So it appears that Ratzinger has not addressed this?

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Faulty parallel.

Byrd joined the Klan as an adult, of his own free will.

[Lindacooks]

24. That makes it even worse that Ratzinger hasn't addressed his past.

If he was forced to join the Hitler Youth, which I do not doubt, that would give him even more reason to speak out against it.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Finally!

Someone gets it! I thought I was going nuts! We know he was forced...fine. But, he is an adult now and can say where he stands. He can show us through actions. Great job LynneSin!

[Rich Hunt]

41. I hope not

I hope that he will address this matter directly and show where he stands not simply through his actions. This is an issue that must be kept alive in the media - it is a legitimate concern, since we have not heard much from the Cardinal (oops, the new Pope) on this point.

[saltpoint]

3. I am vehemently opposed to ultra-authoritarian --

-- personalities of any stripe but I do not believe a 14-year old boy can be reasonably or humanely expected to thwart the Third Reich.

Oppose Ratzinger on ideological grounds since he has become the enforcer of ultra-conservative and anti-pluralism doctrine, but let's not indict 14-year olds for being 14-year olds.

[ClarkUSA]

8. He also was in the Wehrmacht Army infantry as a Nazi in 1944

at the age of 17 and served until very near the end of the war. Was serving in the Wehrmacht compulsory too? He ended up in an Allied POW camp.

[saltpoint]

10. Ratzinger deserted. He did not serve until the end.

And to answer your question, I believe yes, military service was compulsory under the Reich.

Can you imagine a scenario where a young male German of that time and place tells a Nazi recruiting official that he refuses to serve in the army owing to moral objections of its basic tenets?

While he would certainly earn my absolute praise, he would also just as certainly have been shoved onto the train to the death camps.

My point is that 14-year olds do not run governments.


____
edit: typo

[hfojvt]

18. In my Deutsch class many years ago

we read a short story called "Jugend gegen Hitler" (Youth Against Hitler) about a young German boy who joined the Hitler Youth, but later joined (or formed) an opposition group, got caught and was either sentenced to a camp or to die. Presumably, it was a true story. Some youth did take a stand.

[saltpoint]

23. The best that can be done for that young man is that we --

-- remember his bravery.

Its cost was death.

The very considerable objection to Ratzinger should concern his adult bullying on anti-women positions, anti-gay positions, and anti-pluralism positions, not that at 14 he was in the Hitler Youth.

[roguevalley]

4. He was a part of the worst atrocity of the modern world. He owes

the world who suffered from the actions of his government an explanation of his actions. The victims of his government's actions owe nothing in explanation or reconciliation. He has not spoken about his part in this atrocity and so he has to. Never forget is right for me too. Had we been in Germany in those days, we would have not made the cut too.

Given his conservative bent, I am worried as hell for the world now what he will do. A lot of people are going to suffer from his rulings and pronouncements, all couched in the fallacy of his own 'infallibility'.

[MemphisTiger]

9. The guy has been Pope for three hours

give the guy some time before you start to build the gallows

[beam me up scottie]

31. Maybe so, but he sure didn't wait until he was pope to

damn others.
His message came through LOUD and CLEAR, just as he intended.

[hfojvt]

30. I cringe at that "worst" label

Maybe because I am a Kraut. What makes the slaughter of 6 million "the worst"? Over ten million Germans were killed in WWII, as well as over 20 million Soviets (and how many French, Slavs, Poles, and Italians can be added to 400,000 American deaths in the same conflagration?). To me, the slaughter of 30 million is a worse atrocity than the slaughter of 6 million. Is the greater slaughter and destruction of war somehow excused or justified and thus less of an atrocity than the more calculated holocaust?
How about "one of the worst" unless that is oxymoronic, or unless I am.

[solinvictus]

35. I agree, what if Ratzinger's name was Gradenko or Zhadanov or Slatkin..

and he'd been in the Comsomol during Stalinism and WW2? No one ever paid for any of the crimes of the Soviets; there were no trials, no memorials, and no TV network movies dramatizing them. Beria was only killed because he threatened the leadership, not out of any particular principle. Stalin killed between 14-25 million people, Mao about 60 million, both of which makes Hitler look like an amateur.

[Solly Mack]

6. I'm attending the 60th Anniversary of the Liberation of Dachau on the 24th

You and yours will be in my thoughts..

[sabra]

15. I appreciate your words.

My father visited Auschwitz-Birkenau a few months ago. He still hasn't recovered (emotionally).

[Danmel]

29. My father is a Polish Auschwitz survivor

He thought Pope John Paul II was a great man, because he consistently opposed the Nazis, remained friends with the Jewish neighbors he had who survived and addressed the Church's complicity with the Nazis. He genuinely was NOT an anti-Semite and stated publicly that Jews were Christians older brothers and still had a covenant with God.

When my Dad, who is 87, heard about the selection of Ratzinger, this is what he said "There are a lot of Germans, who were alive at that time, who really were against Hitler but were powerless. We'll have to see what he says and what he does before we can tell if the new Pope is one of them. He told me "I don't blame all Germans, or all Poles. There were good Poles (like the Pope) and bad Poles and there were good Germans and bad Germans. We'll see how it works out.

Now from the perspective of an 87 year old Holocaust survivor comes the best line with respect to Ratzinger's age : He;s still a young man- he ahs time to make amends!

[sabra]

37. Excellent quote, thanks.

[yvr girl]

12. I think any right feeling person is horrified by the Holocaust

It's a scar on humanity. I'm hurt by it but I certainly can't imagine what it's like to have it as a scar on my family. I'm sorry for your loss, and all the family you never had because of it.

That said, I don't think all the screaming on DU today about the new Pope being a Nazi is rational. (BTW, I don't think you were screaming.) His statements will come out. I'm sure they're in German, makes it kind of hard to google them.

I cannot hold being automatically enrolled into an organization against anyone. After WWI, the world vilified Germany, which led in many ways to WWII. There is no doubt that many people in Germany committed horrible crimes. I think that they should be punished for them, no matter how long ago those crimes were. We should not forget.

I'm not defending the new Pope either - I don't know enough about him. I suspect that he is a mixture of good and bad like most of us. I just think we should wait for facts to judge.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabra]

16. Is that a joke?

If not, I don't appreciate your remarks. My intentions was not win any arguments, it was to convey my perspective on this hotly discussed topic. It was also in response to the, "it happened 60 years ago" comments.

[crispini]

21. Congratulations!

This wins the nastiest post of the day award! Way to go!

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patcox2]

36. Just what is the appropriate response?

I didn't bring it up.

And, it having been brought up, what in your opinion is the proper response? Genuflection?

I am not hauling out the shades of the dead to justify my opinions. My opinions are mine and I will defend them on their merits, rather than throwing out an awful,unspeakable tragedy to which there is no appropriate response.

What was the point? Claiming victimhood? Victims of the nazis have a special right to hate Ratzinger?

It begs the question, it makes serious debate impossible, this appeal to emotion.

How about if I said "my grandfather and three of his brothers were killed in a palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon in 1982" whenever the topic veered to the middle east. This would mean what, exactly?

I have taken part in a holocaust studies program at a local community college for the last 6 years, it teaches high school students about the holocaust. Issues such as the guilt of the germans are discussed in great detail. I judge the essays the students write as part of the program. Maybe its because I have seen the subject of the holocaust discussed seriously and deeply, as part of a sober effort to make people think about the serious issues of human nature and evil and guilt, that I am somewhat annoyed at seeing it thrown around like this.

Ratzinger is one of a million germans walking around who served in the wermacht. Whats it mean? Are they all collectively guilty? Should we have just killed them all?

And with regard to what has gotten me responding harshly, was I more harsh than the person who wrote "Fucking freepers defending this nazi, I am out of here?" I don't think I am a fucking freeper.

[Scurrilous]

14. The Pope and the Jews

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3074971,00.html

New Pope Benedict XVI was a close advisor of John Paul II; like the Church he represents, he has had a complex relationship with Jews

<snip>

"Newly-elected Pope Benedict XVI, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has had an up-and-down relationship with the Jewish community.

One of Pope John Paul II's closest confidants, the new Pope is said to share the late Pope's affinity for Jews, and is a member of the Vatican's Commission for Religious Relations With the Jews.

The German-born Pope has also participated in Catholic-Jewish dialogue, and has strongly condemned anti-Semitism. He has called for dialogue with the Jewish community, and said that discussions must start with a prayer for "greater esteem and love toward this people, the Israelites."
He also said Catholics must acknowledge the "gift that they (Jews) have made to us," meaning Jesus."

<snip>

"He has called the Holocaust an "atrocity", and said anti-Semitism "produced deplorable acts of violence," including the failure of many Christians to help Jews escape the Nazi party."

[sabra]

25. Thank you for this, it is helpfull. eom

[China_cat]

27. I have to ask, then, why he chose as a name

a pope who exhorted the Polish people to get rid of the Jews in their midst, including making it an excommunicable offense for them to even live in the same town?

[roguevalley]

19. He may not have had a 'choice' in 1943 or 44, but he has a choice

now. Here is a snippet from www.americablog.org about his belief that violence against gays is basically their fault and *yawn* none of our concern:

Gee, this sounds like pure Senator Cornyn talking about the judges.

Sure, violence is wrong, but fags shouldn't be surprised when their own existence invites violence. Spoken like a true former member of the Hitler Youth. Links here and here.

‘It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

‘But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase (No. 10).

8. "What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behavior of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well’ (No. 11).

So much for godliness.

[Ganja Ninja]

20. I'm sorry but I think people are really stretching to find ...

something to hold against this guy. It's not as if he was pushing Jews into the ovens himself. He's from Germany, he was 14 when he joined the Hitler youth. What do you suppose would have happened if he didn't? It's real easy to talk about what someone else should have done in a certain situation but are you willing to face jail or worse to stand up against an out of control fascist? Hindsight is always 20/20. The people of Germany didn't know the eventual fate that Hitler would bring upon the world. Without the fore knowledge of the fate of the Jews and the rest of Europe would you be willing to resort to violence against your own country.

[sabra]

22. repentance

My post was not trying to pin anything on this man. In fact I was inquiring about his core beliefs and actions during the time and since. Another member posted some additional info, and I found it to be insightfull...

[woo me with science]

28. excellent post

deserves its own thread

[sabra]

33. Care to elaborate?

[MadHound]

32. For a man who joined the Church, and progressed through the ranks

To the top spot, this "blemish" on Ratziger's record is even harder to explain. Despite his age, despite the compulsitory manner of the Hitler Youth, Ratzinger could have, and should have, taken a moral stand, and refused service in the Hitler Youth Corp.

I was born in a small farming town made up of Germans. Many were German immigrants, some from before the war started, some came over during the war, and some afterwards. I talked with these people on a daily basis, hearing their stories, and listening to the condemnation of Nazis and Hitler.

For despite being glossed over in history books, there was a resistance movement in Nazi Germany, and there were many people who defied the fascist government in ways large and small. Most of the people I grew up with had defied Hitler, and paid the price. And I find it interesting that there were people in my little town who, as a youth no older than Ratzinger, refused to join the Hitler Youth. And yes, these people paid the penalty. Ostrasized, turned out, turned in, sent to the camps, fled for their lives, ay, even unto death these resistors suffered. But each and everyone of them had an incredible pride in having defied Hitler and his war machine. And all were proud of their acts of resistance, both large and small.

Thus, to say that Ratzinger had no choice is wrong. Yes, one choice led to brutality, suffering and possible death. But many choices are similarly difficult. But the other choice meant that you sold your soul to the devil. A quandry, but it shouldn't have been very difficult for a pious youth already thinking of being a priest.

I'm sorry, but Ratzinger made his choice, he made his deal with the devil and lived. Too bad his choice was rewarded here on earth, but I think that he should be much more concerned with the judgement he will receive when he dies.

[noiretextatique]

34. a timely question...your last sentence

a very timely one indeed for americans.

[applegrove]

38. Yes - I hope the details of his time in Hitler Youth come up. We need

to know what he did. If he was in no way a full participant or a leader of his group.. the better for him. Though you have to wonder if an experience that made him felt guilty could have led to becoming more religious and a priest.

What was in the man's heart at the time.

[sabra]

39. Exactly the way I feel. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

40. Thousands of Jewish concentration camp prisoners from Dachau...

... were the very ones used as forced labor in the Munich BMW plant where this Pope served as a guard -- or as some say, as an anti-aircraft gunner. The BMW plant was the hub of many of the Reich's most secret weapons programs.

[theHandpuppet]

42. Kicking because...

... there seem to be so many apologists for Ratzinger.