Rasie your hand if you were in Germany in 1941

[WilliamPitt]

Lots of juicy judgment going on today about what a 14 year old boy should or should not have done once he was forcibly conscripted by the Reich in the bowels of Nazi Germany at the apex of their power and influence.

I'm just wondering if anyone on DU was actually there and can make a judgment based on personal experience.

[Zenlitened]

1. Ask me again when I'm elected Pope.

:crazy:

[trotsky]

2. I think what a lot of people are judging on...

is the fact that Ratzinger has never renounced his Nazi past.

That seems to me a legitimate basis on which to make a judgment.

[WilliamPitt]

7. Are we sure about that?

I haven't seen anything one way or the other.

[xpat]

84. His outlook in old age is still totalitarian.

That's all you need to know. Whether he has ever formally rejected his Nazi Youth membership is irrelevant when you look at his professional/political actions as an adult.

[Misunderestimator]

92. I agree with that!

[alarimer]

105. that's it exactly

I really couldn't care less about the Catholic Church or the Pope. I renounced Catholicism years agao (before my 10th birthday probably LOL) but it seems like they are working on bringing back the Inquisition, as if it ever really went away.

[Kellanved]

13. Please explain

So far, there is no evidence that there is a Nazi past. He was in the Hitler Youth and his school class was drafted. That's it. It is a difficult past, but one Ratzinger has admitted to.


I'd say the man Ratzinger and his position are a target more worthy of criticism than the boy Ratzinger.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

[trotsky]

36. Yes, he was drafted.

And somehow, even though it is claimed he deserted, he ended up in a Allied POW camp in 1945.

Like VelmaD notes below, just one link - ANY link - to Ratzinger renouncing his Nazi involvement (no matter to what extent) would do a lot to ease people's fears.

[Kellanved]

52. I am not sure what you want

And I am not sure that I want to defend him. He declared that he has never fired a shot.

He has a pretty acceptable position regarding the christian role in the Holocaust.

http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/news/News_Dec2000.htm

[doublethink]

131. Quite a few 'German Soldiers' ....

and 'Nazis' ended up deserting at the end of WW2 and gave themselves up to Allied Forces in fear of what the Russians would do to them, if they were caught by that side of the conflict. It was a no win situation for a lost war. The only decision was who's POW camp did they want to be in ... was this Ratzingers plight? Don't know. :think:

edited for spelling.

[Squatch]

15. He was not a Nazi

How can you renounce something that you never were?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

138. So we've been told.

[Generator]

25. I bet it's just arrogance

Not that he doesn't renounce it, but why does he need to say it?

Afterall these are people that think they have a direct line to the big G. Which some of us find not only ridiculous and well..blasphemous but ultimately it takes a bit of an ass to be pope, no?

Big shoes to fill, no time for explanations when you are purging what you have decided is evil in the world and all.

[barb162]

90. If someone forces you to join a group (e.g., threatening your

parents) are you a true blue member of the group? If your country forces a draft, does that mean you automatically are for whatever war you are forced to fight? I say give the guy a break; he was living in a totalitarian state. Maybe he hasn't renounced his so-called Nazi past because he was never a Nazi. The articles I have been reading indicate he and his family were extremely reluctant (in several ways) to have anything to do with the Hitler government.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

141. That's the cover story....look at his belief structure to know....

...what he really thinks.

[barb162]

149. so he's possibly a bit to the right of Torquemada? bwaha

[LanternWaste]

113. Ratzinger described the Nazis as "fanatical ideologues who tyrannized us..

In his autobiography, Ratzinger described the Nazis as "fanatical ideologues who tyrannized us without respite."

Fort Worth Star Telegram

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/special_packages/pope/11433617.htm

[trotsky]

132. Actually, I had heard that quote only referred to

his superiors in the Austrian Legion. Needless to say, there are many unanswered questions and I think it's easy to see why many people are suspicious.

[Charon]

182. Renounce the past

Was that man a card carrying Member of the Nazi Party. If not he does not have a "Nazi Past" to renounce. Being drafted into the German army or drummed in the HJ. was a fate that befell untold numbers of Germans. Does that make them all Nazi's. I don't think so. Any more than being Drafted in to President Johnson's army during the Viet Nam war make a person a Democrat.

[dhinojosa]

3. No, so what you're saying is if weren't there...support it? nt

[WilliamPitt]

10. I'm saying

it is easy to sit in relative comfort 64 years later and judge what a 14 year old boy should have done while sitting in the middle of the most dangerous regime in recent memory.

If he was 24, or 34, or hell even 18...but 14? In Germany? In 1941?

[dhinojosa]

17. Yeah, but my real beef, though you didn't know this,....

was when he was older he was anti-aircraft gunner, and he has never publicly renounced it.

[tx_dem41]

29. Yes...older...when he was 16..and he deserted that post and spent

...6 months in a POW camp as a reward for that. What would you have done?

[dhinojosa]

40. Done exactly what he did.......

but, I would renounce it publicly.

[tx_dem41]

41. If I believe several respected DUers, he has renounced it.

Sorry, don't have a link, although there was one hinted. Can't wait to see it.

[dhinojosa]

43. Cool

me either. It is just disturbing that there has been no info about it.

[crispini]

68. That's the link I'm waiting for... nt

[Lindacooks]

76. Nope, he has not renounced it, that anyone can find.

[Hobarticus]

83. What crime is that? What's to renounce?

He manned an anti-aircraft gun, along with thousands of other teenage German boys, to defend against around-the-clock bombing.

He was a uniformed, legal combatant.

He wasn't shooting at pigeons, he was shooting at Allied bombers dropping HE.

So what? What's the war crime?

By the time teen-age boys were manning AA guns, it was less about the glory of the Third Reich and serving the Fuhrer, and more about saving their homes and their own skins.

[louis c]

129. Don't you get it

I'm sick and tired of making excuses for leaders.

Can't we find a Pope that hasn't been a German soldier, or any soldier for that matter.

Hasn't anyone read the New Testament?

[Charon]

183. Real Beef

Why renounce your servcie. Should hundreds of thousands of the young americans that President Johnson drafted to fight in Viet Nam, renounce their service?

[mimitabby]

20. In poland

my stepfather at the age of 13 joined the resistance.
And ended his childhood there and then. He was only 13 and stood
up for what he believed.
I think Pope material should go beyond what we expect of normal children.

[Susang]

53. I lost many relatives in Poland as well

Before I was born of course and it wasn't spoken of very much. I'm sorry for what your stepfather had to go through.

[theHandpuppet]

115. Here are the real, young heroes of Munich

... who joined the resistance:

http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/
(excerpt)
By the summer of 1942, Hans Scholl and Alexander Schmorell were at the center of a close-knit group of friends who shared the same ideals and interests in medicine, music, art, theology and philosophy. They soon recognized their shared disgust for Adolf Hitler, the Third Reich and the Gestapo. Hans and Alex were soon joined by Christoph Probst (a level-headed, married soldier and father of three who was loved by everyone who knew him) and Willi Graf (another medical student and a devout Catholic who never joined the Hitler Youth and refused to acknowledge those who did). And there was Sophie, Hans Scholl's younger sister who joined Hans and his friends at the University to study biology and philosophy. These friends, sometimes joined by popular philosophy professor Kurt Huber, Jürgen Wittenstein and others, formed the heart of The White Rose. 

A MUST READ:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/rose.html

More on the youth of The White Rose:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july8.html
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,783992,00.html

[libertad]

179. I agree. Pope JP II worked for the resistance, also.

How many Cardinals were not Nazis? Surely they could have found one more suitable.

[roguevalley]

45. I suppose so but there were plenty of righteous gentiles. If he is

going to head the largest church in the world, he has to be forthcoming and he has to be as pure as it can be had. A lot of people in this world have been affected by his country's actions and he was a part of them. he had better be forthcoming about his past or suffer the rejection and ire of millions. I don't believe people who have suffered need to explain or reject their feelings just because he was a kid. Talk to us, Benedict the XVI or suffer the rightful disdain of the world.

The news outlets are saying his past is coming for him. People in Germany are mixed on his elevation. I reject him wholeheartedly.

[Guaranteed]

4. No, but I saw Schindler's List.

Yeah, there was an awfully lot of crazy stuff going on there.

So, does everyone get a free pass?

What about integrity?

Has he even renounced what happened and his involvement?

[Radical Activist]

171. No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Sorry, there's just some kind of mental connection I made there. Its late.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. *raises hand*

But that was a past life as a rock. That counts, right?

[specimenfred1984]

6. Like You Were?

Always trying to stir everybody up so you can write about it huh?

I don't like ex-Nazi religious leaders, so sue me!

[Southsideirish]

14. Brilliant!

[Bridget Burke]

23. Yes, but he's able to write!

Don't be envious.

[HEyHEY]

42. ?Envious?

I know the point will is trying to make, but the point, whoever that was is also valid

[WilliamPitt]

54. That I'm trying to 'stir things up' so I can write about it?

No, sorry, it's a bullshit point and a cheap shot to boot.

[HEyHEY]

59. If you were sincerely asking

Then yes it was. But I think this poster took your question as a comment more than a question.

[WilliamPitt]

61. Whatever

Taking my post as a comment is fine. Saying I put it there so I can 'write about it' is crap. Your high-fiving the sentiment is equally nonsensical.

But whatever. Fighting, hyperbole, rudeness and crap are on the menu for GD today. I shouldn't be surprised when DUers I really like succumb to the temptation.

And anyway, I have to get back to work.

[HEyHEY]

62. I wasn't hi-fiving anyone

I was just saying I could see the point the person was making. However upon reflection, as I mentioned previously, it appears that you are actually looking for someone who WAS there. All I said is that if you were commenting that we should say nothing because we weren't there the person had a valid comment too.

Either way, I wasn't trying to attack you by any means.

Back to work, good idea I should do the same.

cheers

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

173. Wow

What's with the chip?

[VelmaD]

8. Just one link Will...

one link to any news story where he has expressed sincere regret and talked about how the experience effected him. That's all I ask.

[WilliamPitt]

12. I'd like to see it, as well

[VelmaD]

21. It's basically the only thing...

keeping me posting in pope threads today. I want to see it. I want to believe he has expresed remorse at some point in a public way. I don't want to believe the cardinals would have elected him otherwise. Plus it would put all this nonsense to rest.

[mcar]

108. I'd like to see that too

However, as a lifelong Catholic who does not now practice but still considers herself Catholic ....

I am more concerned about the fact that, it seems to me, this guy has been the voice of the church for quite a few years, since JPII took ill.

I hold him responsible for the church's deplorable response to the rape of children by priests; I truly believe that the directives for how to handle the scandal came from Ratzinger.

also, the guy has been the head of the modern Inquisition, for the sweet baby Jesus's sake. What in the world are we still doing with an Inquisition?

[LanternWaste]

116. Here's one

As a young man growing up in Nazi Germany, he was profoundly repelled by Hitler's ruinous corruptions of truth and morality.

In his autobiography, Ratzinger described the Nazis as "fanatical ideologues who tyrannized us without respite."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/special_packages/pope/11433617.htm

Fort Worth Star Telegram

I can make the inference pretty well as to how he feels about the Nazi party.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

142. The key word here is "autobiography"....do we have any independent.....

...observations of Ratzinger as a 14 year old?

If Prescott Bush were to come back and tell us that he didn't make loans to Nazi Germany and that he didn't believe in eugenics, would you believe that too?

[LanternWaste]

177. I merrely posted a relevant quote from a primary source.

Didn't state whether I did or did not believe the statement. I merrely posted a relevant quote from a primary source.

[Throckmorton]

119. If one were to employ the thought process in use here today,

and apply it to another well know person, most of the posters would just shit.

Resolved, G. W. Bush is an authentic American Hero because he craftily avoided bombing Innocent women and children in Vietnam. By using his connections to avoid overseas service, he is a true American worthy of his office.

Joseph Ratzinger is a Nazi Murderer because at 16 he was drafted and forced to man Anti-Aircraft Batteries in his home town, when a truly great German would have killed himself instead.

[Hugin]

26. Well... I know *one* person who was affected...

Ann Frank.

http://www.spa3.k12.sc.us/WebQuests/Diary%20of%20Anne%20Frank/Index.html

Wonder what she'd think of this Pope.

Nazi's burn their mistakes.

[LiberallyInclined]

30. Nazi's burn their mistakes...kind of ironic-

that's what happened to the votes that elected ratzinger as well.

[theboss]

9. This is DU at its best

Find someone whose philosophies and actions are certainly worthy of great scrutiny and great criticism. Determine that scrutiny and criticism are hard work. Instead find something unpleasant in their past, make that the sum of that person's character, and then extrapolate it to a ridiculous degree.

First of all, I'm not Catholic so I still don't have a Pope. But I recognize the importance of the Pope in the world. And I'm less than thrilled with Benedict XVI. I think this is a step backwards for the Church and therefore the modern world.

But I fail to see how screaming "Nazi! Nazi! Nazi!" about some young teenager's actions is helping matters.

[crispini]

67. There is plenty of factfinding and scrutiny

going on in Skinner's thread, and I'm not liking what's getting found, Hitler Youth or no.

[theboss]

77. He's a medieval priest in many ways

And to me, that should be the issue. Not whatever he was forced to do at the barrel of a gun in 1941.

[barb162]

91. yes, but the medieval period was more dynamic that a lot of people

think.

[theboss]

97. Not theologically

Anyway, this is going to be a move away from Vatican II, I think. That's the real point.

[barb162]

100. the middle and late medieval periods were active theologically

Vatican 2 seems like a long time ago. It was nice while it lasted and I thought back then there was going to be some real long-term and continuous reform. Guess not.

[Lindacooks]

78. The point is that 'something unpleasant' was one of the worst evils

in human history, and the sheer brutality of it outweighs just about anything else in a person's history. The holocaust and the third reich just outshadow every other human evil in modern times that I can think of.

[theboss]

89. And he was a teenager

This isn't a Kurt Waldheim situation. He was not an officer. He was a teenager who deserted. This is like blaming some Private at Fort Jackson for the prison abuse scandal. Well...not exactly...but I am failing to find an analogy.

[Lindacooks]

107. Yes? And??

Where's his denunciation of the Nazis? Where's his apology that he was part of the third reich? Teenagers should have fairly well developed senses of right and wrong by the time they are 17 years old.

[theboss]

130. Apparently it is in his memoirs

Which I am now going to have to buy and post here or something.

[Yupster]

168. Hitler took office

when he was six. It would be the only leader he knew.

The war started when he was 12.

I think expecting a young person in that situation to become an independant thinker and critic of the dictatorship is asking an awful lot.

[Lindacooks]

194. Nope, I don't agree. Especially since Pope John Paul

was a teenager when he was against Hitler. AND, Ratzinger has not apologized belonging to the Hitler Youth, nor has he denounced it. This fits right in with a man who dismisses the church pedophile scandal as being a 'media conspiracy'.

[Charon]

184. Yes? And??

Where's his denunciation of the Democrats, Where's his apology that he was part of the War in Vietnam. Teenagers should have fairly well developed senses of right and wrong by the time they are 17 years old.

[Lindacooks]

195. What the hell are you talking about?

[rinsd]

11. Considering the pass many of the same give to Robert Byrd...

...its even more astounding.

[VelmaD]

16. Robert Byrd has spent the remaining years of his life...

trying to atone for what he did as a younger man. He has apologized and worked hard to make amends.

If someone can show me where the new pope has done the same then I will shut up and move on.

[rinsd]

49. To my knowledge, Byrd has not publically apologized....

...he willingly joined a virulently racist organization that was not compulsory by the state and he held a higher position than just member.

Do you have a link where Byrd has apologized for his klan involvement?

All I got from google was this

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/byrd.slur/

I googled Ratzninger apology and got this

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0003/WD16-5690.html

The above is about a general apology for all church wrongdoings and has some Ratzinger quotes at the bottom.

I didn't find any direct apology by either men for their individual deeds but that doesn;t mena it isn;t out there. .

[VelmaD]

63. I googled and found this link...

that quotes an AP story from 1999:
http://basement.bianca.com/shack/basement/sub/posts/2003_Feb_24/66216/66216.html

[rinsd]

86. Thank you (nt)

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

95. YES HE HAS- i live in wv-he's done it numerous times

calls it the worst mistake of his life. got forgiven and a clean bill of health from the naacp after he apologized to them

[Bridget Burke]

18. Hey---one guy here said he protested the war at 14...

I'm sure we've got others who sneaked a beer in a friend's basement or smoked pot between classes.

There are plenty of real world reasons to have reservations about Ratzinger. And quite a few of the pope-bashers are just following the faith of their fathers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. 2 male relatives of mine were there

The son was successfully brainwashed by the Hitler Youth. The father did not like the Nazis - he had to listen to British radio only when the boy was safely asleep.

Both conscripted, both killed on the Eastern Front. I'm not going to blame Ratzinger for doing what he did.

[geek tragedy]

22. I'm a citizen of the world in the year 2005, and he's still a goddamn

Nazi theocratic hatemonger. Why cut him slack on the question of the exact time and place he became an agent of evil? He's evil now, and that's what counts.

[realFedUp]

24. I think I had a past life there.....

:-)

ya just gotta love DUers.

[Goldmund]

27. You're absolutely right, EXCEPT...

...I'd like to see some kind of a past statement by Ratzinger explicitly denouncing Nazi-ism. It's a safe bet that almost all surviving male Germans of that age were in the HJ, and it'd be idiotic to say they're all Nazis or even ex-Nazis. BUT, once one starts gaining position of religious, and therefore political, influence, then he or she needs to clearly define where they stand. If you were actively involved in the HJ (earning nicknames such as "god's rottweiler" and "the enforcer") at 14, and then you spend 50 years or so consolidating political/religious power, I'd expect you to, at some point, say "yo, I was young and had no choice, that was Bullshit, Hitler was a madman".

I'm not saying he hasn't made a statement to this effect. I just haven't seen it. IF he hasn't, then I think that is significant.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Me too

I just did a google search and nothing came up. This issue will out sooner or later; it's too heated a topic for them to avoid. Either he denounced Nazism or he didn't. We will find out soon enough.

[Bridget Burke]

34. It may require more than a Google search.

But who has time to read books any more?

[WilliamPitt]

39. Which book?

Do you have it handy?

[Bridget Burke]

64. He's written several, although most are about doctrine....

"Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977" is the closest I've seen to an autobiography. "The Ratzinger Report" is from interviews--& apparently has some discussion of his past. The only biography I could find is by John L Allen, Jr. & it appears to be anti-Ratzinger.

I have none of these handy, since I haven't felt the need to get into Ratzinger in depth.

But those who assure us that Ratzinger has never said anything about his past have surely read them all! They do speak with such assurance.

[Southsideirish]

31. This man was there in 1945 and he refused to join.

RUDOLPH KIRST

Hitler had a theory that Germany would be defended to the last drop of blood, so I was among a group of boys taken for military training in 1945 and then lined up and asked to fight. I said: 'Hitler is an evil man and I won't volunteer.'
Boy soldiers of the Hitler Youth in 1945
'The other boys were sent to the front as cannon fodder'

Of the 600 boys - mostly 15 year olds - about 10 of us didn't agree to join the Hitler Youth division going to the front. We were interrogated by army officers, and the boys said that their parents would not like them volunteering. I was the only one who said: 'I don't want to volunteer.'

Looking back it was an extraordinarily brave act for a 16-year-old. If I had been 18, I probably would have been shot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3025495.stm

[Goldmund]

38. Yeah, that was 1945.

Any German with a drop of sanity in their head knew that the war was effectively over and they were about to get their asses handed to them.

Had that been 1941 the guy would not be alive today to tell us about it.

[yvr girl]

48. I don't think it's fair to say he joined the Nazis

It was automatic.

"Movements for youngsters were part of German culture and the Hitler Youth had been created in the 1920's. By 1933 its membership stood at 100,000. After Hitler came to power, all other youth movements were abolished and as a result the Hitler Youth grew quickly. In 1936, the figure stood at 4 million members. In 1936, it became all but compulsory to join the Hitler Youth. Youths could avoid doing any active service if they paid their subscription but this became all but impossible after 1939."

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hitler_youth.htm

[Goldmund]

58. I agree, but what does that have to do with my post?

I was saying something that supports your point: Ratzinger had to make that "choice" in 1941, when there WAS NO CHOICE. This guy had to make it in 1945.

My issue is, as I said in another post on this thread, whether or not Ratzinger explicitly denounced what he did during Nazi Germany. If he has, then there's no issue here.

[lastliberalintexas]

32. Ratzinger is now a HEAD OF STATE

I'm sorry for all you Catholics who are taking offense at criticism (legitimate or otherwise) directed at your church's leader. The problem is that he also happens to be a HEAD OF STATE, and is accorded privileges as same. Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et al are evil and try to influence the governments of the world as best they can. The Pope IS a government of the world, and therein lies the difference.

Don't like it? Have that status taken away from the Vatican so that they don't have a seat at the table like other countries of the world. If the RCC was *just* a religious organization, the protestations from Catholics might be received with a little more understanding. Otherwise, as long as Ratzinger is a head of state, the protestations ring rather hollow.

[tx_dem41]

33. I love watching people grasping at straws...

...especially when they know they're grasping at straws. The shame of it is they're missing the good stuff around the corner. Sad, that the effort to walk around that corner is just too strenuous for them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. So, looking at Ratzinger's current belief structure and comparing it to...

...the indoctrination he received as a member of the Hitler Youth is "grasping at straws"? Did I somehow misunderstand the meaning of your post?

[tx_dem41]

187. Yes, you did. n/t

[arcos]

35. I don't care whether he was a nazi or not, but I DO care he's 2005 fundie

And I still can't understand why so many people are defending him. He's a right wing extremist, an Opus Dei member... in my opinion he's the worst choice they could have ever made.

[GumboYaYa]

37. My great grandparents on my father's side lived in Germany in

the 1930's. They were Catholic/Jewish mixed marriage, which was considered vile by Hitler. Mixed marriage families were discriminated against early in Hitler's regime. They fled Germany after Hitler had been in power for little over a year; my grandfather was 14.

From conversations with him I can tell you one thing I know about what it was like to be 14 and in Germany in 1939. Some scary shit was going down. People feared for their lives with good reason. Personally, I can completely empathize with a young boy doing whatever it took to survive in that environment.

[Ariana Celeste]

70. Exactly, my husband's Mutti has told

him stories about life back then. People like to think that all of the Germans supported Hitler and the Nazi's, when in fact many German's were scared for their own lives.

It's all American propaganda that has people today thinking that all Germans were Jew haters and fully supportive of their leader. This simply wasn't so. Thanks for sharing, GumboYaYa. :hi:

[ohio_liberal]

104. Indeed

My grandparents, Josef and Helen Schaefer-Krantz, lived in Germany until 1938. My Grammy told me once that open dissent was impossible and that one didn't dare express any resistance if survival was important. The Hitler Youth was enthusiastic to say the least, certainly because they lived and breathed Hitler's idealogy and the older teens and young adults had incredible power and a pack mentality. Yes, it was a frightening time for so many, but there are also those who truly believed Hitler would bring Germany to greatness. I don't know what Ratzinger truly thought of it all as a 14 year old child. No one but Ratzinger does. I personally am inclined to be forgiving in any case.

[Walt Starr]

44. If that 14 year old boy wasn't later the Head of State for a nation

I wouldn't give a damn.

Compare how Ratzinger conducted himself at that time to the way Karol Wojtyla conducted himself in a similar time at a similar age.

[JackRiddler]

46. You're absolutely right

Ratzinger having been in Hitler Youth at 14 is irrelevant. Furthermore, he later deserted his military unit, so no one can pin this history on him. He need not apologize for the Nazis.

The relevant history, however, is just as bad: the Inquisition, of which Ratzinger is the head. The successor office has a different name but historical continuity with and the same function as the original Inquisition: enforcement of hardline doctrine and absolute Papal authority, censorship of books, pronouncements (as in the 2000 document written by Ratzinger) that everyone who isn't Catholic is going to hell.

If the Church still had the power, do you doubt that the Inquisition would still be burning heretics at the stake? Has Ratzinger issued an apology for the witch-burnings? For Tycho Brahe?

Are you out to defend this totalitarian absolutist organization? Do you think claims that God happened to pick a spokesperson, and that God only speaks through that one spokesperson, merit anything less than the contempt of all who believe in reason?

What about when said spokesperson happens to expect obedience from everyone on Earth (as in the 2000 document), when he threatens unbelievers with eternity in Hell, or when he expects financial tribute from the faithful?

How is this different from Scientology, the Moonies, the Ayatollah, Billy Graham, or any other religious racket?

Hm, Will Pitt's "most popular" thread of yesterday was on the evils of Theocracy.

What makes the Vatican-run Catholic Church more acceptable? Because it's so old and venerable? Or perhaps because it has produced a richer and more beautiful artistic tradition than pretty much any other religious racket?

[WilliamPitt]

56. Exactly my point

There are ten thousand things about this guy that are awful and terrifying. What he did or did not do as a 14 year old boy pales in comparison to some of the things he has done as an adult. That should be the focus.

[Sterling]

134. There are ten thousand things about this guy that are awful and terrifying

Then get your head on and start with those. To waste your time excusing his initial stages of ideological development is hilarious.

[WilliamPitt]

158. It's a DU thing

*shaking head*

I find myself engaged in arguments here that I would never be a part of normally.

I suppose that's a good thing, though.

[pnorman]

47. I'm not condemning him.

But I question him being the spiritual head of a religion that would expect his flock to revere the Christian Martyrs (real and fictional), and as necessary EMULATE them (at this point, our Draft-Abstainer in Chief comes to mind). That he apparently has never explicitly renounced that "incident", is even more telling.

I'm not a Catholic; I'm not even a card-carrying Christian. So I don't have a "vote" here, but I have a voice. As I said in another related thread: "The Cardinals have chosen the safe and self-serving path. I'm saving my scorn fror THEM, rather than the new Pope."

pnorman

[Susang]

50. No, but my relatives were in Poland in 1941

Therefor, I feel qualified to make my own judgements based on my own criteria and experience, thank you very much for your input.

[WilliamPitt]

57. I appreciate that

but Poland was not Germany. Poland was conquored. Germany was ground zero for super-evil, and that's a hell of a thing for a 14 year old boy to throw himself against.

[Susang]

72. I don't think you do

Obviously, I realize that Poland was not Germany. Those who know Poland's history during WWII realize that many Poles did equally heinous and atrocious things in order to survive the Nazi occupation. Others did not and were outstanding in their acts of defiance and bravery, so I still believe the comparison is apt.

The point I am making is that going from a Polish Pope who resisted the both the Nazis and the brutal oppression the supporters of the Catholic church suffered under the communists, it was outrageous and insensitive of the Church to choose a man with Ratzinger's history (real or perceived) to follow John Paul II.

[WilliamPitt]

85. Yeah

I think this was an amazingly bad choice for the same reasons. Thanks.

[Susang]

87. I'm glad I could explain how I see the situation clearly to you

Believe it or not, I'm not even a practicing Catholic anymore. :wow:

But I was really hoping for something a little better for my parents, they're such devout Catholics. And I believe that this decision will end up alienating good Catholics like them.

[me b zola]

51. One could (maybe SHOULD) compare to America 2005

I could understand a young person falling prey to the media manipulation of the facts & the peer pressure...but only to a point. At some point we MUST be responsible and seek out independent information and act in a responsible manner.

ANYONE who seeks to be respected and hold moral authority cannot do so if they bury their head in the sand and say that although they did nothing to end a corrupt regime, they had no insider knowledge of the crimes that were being committed.

[Lone Pawn]

55. Raise your hand if you were in the TANG in the Vietnam War...anyone?

[KC21304]

60. I couldn't care less what he was doing in 1941. I care about

what he was doing in 2000.

What a disaster for my church and for the world.

http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives/091500/091500a.htm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

146. But what if what he was learning in 1941 from the Hitler Youth....

...served as the bedrock foundation for what he believes today? Based on what he actually believes, that's not much of a stretch is it?

[Zorra]

65. Good point. But....

From the Village Voice:

Regarding the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia, when a person's formal cooperation becomes manifest (understood, in the case of a Catholic politician, as his consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws), his Pastor should meet with him, instructing him about the Church's teaching, informing him that he is not to present himself for Holy Communion until he brings to an end the objective situation of sin, and warning him that he will otherwise be denied the Eucharist.

Well, that's harsh, but at least the Church is consistent on the killing things: It's bad, be it a fetus, a brain-damaged invalid, a convicted killer or an enemy in war. Right?

Wrong. "Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia," Ratzinger wrote. "For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion."

"There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia," he continued.

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/powerplays/archives/000856.php

Sounds almost like dude wrote this as propaganda in order to help get Bush elected.

[Ariana Celeste]

66. My husband's great grandmother..

was a young mother at the point of time.
The Germans were people, too. There were plenty of Germans who hated Jews, because they were told to. There are plenty of Americans who hate Muslims because they are told to.
There were even more Germans that didn't like what was going on, but could do nothing. My husbands Mutti was one of these people.

It started out that you could join the Hitler Youth by choice. Later on, it became all but impossible not to join the Hitler Youth.

I think people need to remember, that while hatred for Jews ran rampant in Germany at this point, the people knew nothing of the camps or the mass killing. Shit, the army didn't know until way later. It was simply the SS that knew.


For the young German boys who joined the Hitler Youth by choice, or by their family's choice... think for a second how many boys you know, or have known, that would LOVE the chance to play Army man and learn to carry a gun. (My little brother would have loved something like that when he was younger.) Especially if there is military in the boys' family.

The Hitler Youth weren't just a group of rabid Nazi's. Most of the boys joined by the age of 10.

10! Just think about that for a moment. First off, these boys *did NOT* know about the camps. Second, they were KIDS. Kids that had the chance to play with guns and learn to be military men. Think the Army propaganda is bad today with those crappy commercials that make it look like being in the military is the most awesome experience one can have? Yeah. Those. Well, the propaganda in Germany back then was just as bad, if not worse.



edited to add parantheses.

[VelmaD]

69. I'm going to put this as delicately as I can...

because my intent is not to offend or upset you...but I don't believe for one minute that the masses of German people did not know. Where did they think their Jewish neighbors had gone? What did they think had happened to them? I think in many cases they just didn't want to "know".

That said, I do not hold all German's alive at the time responsible for the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. I do, however, think that it is incumbent upon each of them to think long and hard about how they behaved at the time and make their own peace with it if they can. That's all I want to know about the new pope...has he ever done that soul-searching.

[Ariana Celeste]

71. Not offended.

They could see the disappearances. That doesn't mean they knew about the camps.

You could be right, as far as *some* just not wanting to "know." But honestly, many of them did not know anything about the camps. For some time there, it was only the SS Officers that knew. Eventually other officers knew as well.

I didn't say they never knew or that nothing had been found out eventually, but it took time. They didn't know for some time. And by that point, they were fearing for their own lives, as well.

[VelmaD]

73. The sad part is...

that they didn't do anything about it before things got out of hand. Where was the mass outrage when Jews were barred from the professions or from attending public schools? Where was the mass movement against the nazi racial laws that forbade jews and non-jews from marrying? Why didn't people stand up even earlier when Hitler first started raving about their neighbors?

Hell, where is the mass outrage in the US NOW? *sigh*

[Ariana Celeste]

81. Well,

this is one of the many reasons we see Bush compared to Hitler so often. They both have/had a way with words. Hatred is a powerful tool. Some Germans fought the only way they knew how, and that was to keep their Jewish friends safely hidden and taken care of. Others left the country. Some agreed with Hitler. Some believed him when he said that he would bring Germany back to its greatness from before WWI destroyed them economically. Hitler didn't just preach hatred; he made a lot of empty promises. And a lot of desperate people unfortunately believed him.

So, I couldn't tell you. All I know is that many Germans opposed Hitler from the beginning, and my husbands Mutti was one of them.

And I agree, where is the mass outrage today? It is sad, very sad.

[raccoon]

196. where is the mass outrage in the US NOW?

Absolutely, VelmaD!

Most of my life, I wondered how in the world the German people could have followed Hitler and his junta so blindly, could have gone along with everything that happened, especially the Jews mysteriously disappearing...

But now I know. Now I can see how it happened, after having seen the way so many Americans blindly supported the Chimpy junta's push toward an invasion of a country just because the junta wanted to.

And almost as bad were the Americans who were aghast at all that was going on, but did nothing, didn't attend rallies, write letters to politicians, call them, or anything.

To me it was a sad commentary on our society when I returned from a peace rally and was asked by two co-workers, both 20-somethings,
"Did you get arrested?"

[Richardo]

74. Thank you, Will

Love the voice of sanity. :thumbsup:

[nolabels]

75. My wife had grandfathers that fought on both sides

I am going to get a divorce because of it now :crazy:

Really it's not a crime to chase and follow patterns of crime, some people even make a living from it :shrug:

Perhaps if he wrote a nice long book on why the the NAZI's were EVIL (or in some cases, still are) and what he was really doing there we might not of been so questioning and inquisitive

[noiretextatique]

79. yes, i can...take a look at what's happening in this country

and tell me how innocent the people supporting bush, inc are. that includes the ones teaching their 14 year old kids that liberals deserve to die.
i wonder how many 14 year old participated in lynchings when they were all the vogue in the good old usa...i'm sure many had not choice or didn't know they did.
no one can judge what's in anyone heart, even if circumstances give one little choice.

[theboss]

80. Get his memoir....Milestones: Memoirs: 1927 - 1977

That should answer any questions, I would think.

I don't really want to read it, but you are, like, a journalist or something.

[goodhue]

82. reading Goethe with delight . . .

http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/1999_March/The_Memories_of_a_Destructive_Mind.htm

When he entered the minor seminary, Ratzinger was about 12 years old. It seems that his entry into the seminary was chiefly urged by the village pastor and by his brother and a few friends. But he was disappointed, and he candidly admits that he was bored by seminary life. And he declares, with a touch of pride, that he considers himself to be "one of those people who are not made for living in a boarding school."

The outbreak of the World War II (1939) brought about the transformation of the minor seminary into "a military hospital, so now, together with my brother, I again began to live at home and walk to school. But the director found alternate quarters for the seminary..." (op. cit., p.26)… "It was the kind of happy life boys should have. I came to terms, then, with being in the seminary and experienced a wonderful time in my life. I had to learn how to...come out of my solitary ways and start building a community with others..." (op. cit., p.27). After the attack against Russia (June 22,1941) the minor seminary's temporary quarters were confiscated for a military hospital. "My brother and I now came home for good. It was also clear, moreover, that the war would last for a long time yet….My brother was seventeen years old, and I, fourteen (op. cit., p.28). And, as it happened, his brother was drafted into the army as a radio operator, and in 1944 was sent to the Italian front. "Despite the grimness of the historical situation, I was facing a good year at home and at the gymnasium in Traunstein. The Greek and Latin classics filled me with enthusiasm…. Above all, I now discovered literature...and read Goethe with delight..." (ibid, p.29).

Juridically, young Ratzinger was enrolled in the boarding school or minor seminary, the property of which had been confiscated, and was thus able to stay at home and study what he wanted, as he wanted. But in 1943, at age 16, he was drafted into one of the anti-aircraft defense batteries along with other seminarians, while at the same time being allowed to attend a certain number of classes at the renowned Maximilians-Gymnasium in Munich (op. cit., p.35).

In 1944, young Ratzinger, having reached military age, was released from the anti-aircraft defense battery. After a period of service in the Reich's labor detail, during which time he managed to avoid being enrolled into the SS by publicly declaring his intention of becoming a priest, he was at last called to arms at the end of that year (op. cit., p.33). Apparently, he was enlisted in the Landsturm, troops of the last hour comprising the young and the less young, and fathers of families who, after a summary training and with light armament, were generally employed in the defense of fixed points (i.e., streams, bridges, etc.). Nevertheless, Joseph Ratzinger never had to engage in combat:

Hitler's death finally strengthened our hope that things would soon end. The unhurried manner of the American advance, however, deferred more and more the day of liberation. At the end of April or the beginning of May - I do not remember precisely - I decided to go home (op. cit., pp.35-36).

What remained of the German army at the end of the war (May 7, 1945) was in disarray. Despite the fact that he had been at home for several days wearing civilian clothing, he was identified by the Americans as a soldier, and was taken prisoner. He was liberated June 19, 1945 and was able to return home for good (op. cit., p.45).

[ananda]

88. Ratzi most definitely..

.. WAS a Nazi. He was drafted into the Hitler Youth Gang, though he says he had no choice and never fired a shot.

Still, couldn't he have refused to serve? Many Germans say that he could have resisted but didn't. Has he denounced his Nazi past?

Sue

[Kellanved]

96. No, not that easily

He had to join the Hitler Youth at age 14 and his high school class was drafted (including teachers) as an AA crew when he was 16. He deserted when he was forced to become a "real" soldier; if caught he would have been shot.
He has not denounced his "Nazi past" AFAIK, however I don't think he believes that he has one. I'd have to read more of his texts to see that, but they are too hard to stomach - not exactly agreeable.

[hfojvt]

93. I did find this in his biography

"1932 December: Due to his father's outspoken criticism of the Nazis, Ratzinger's family is forced to relocate to Auschau am Inn, at the foot of the Alps."

"1966 Ratzinger takes a second chair in dogmatic theology at the University of Tübingen. His appointment is vigorously supported and secured by fellow professor Hans Küng. Ratzinger had initially met Küng in 1957 at a congress of dogmatic theologians in Innsbruck, after recently reviewing Küng's doctoral work on Karl Barth. Says Ratzinger:
'I had many questions to ask of this book because, although its theological style was not my own, I had read it with pleasure and gained respect for its author, whose winning oppenness and straightforwardness I quite liked. A good personal relationship was thus established, even if soon after . . . a rather serious argument began between us about the theology of the council.' "

[gordianot]

94. Might want to try the Ratzinger fan club.

Yeah no kidding. It seems to be down right now. Maybe will be transformed into the the Pope Benedict XVI fan club.

There is supposed to be a time line. Maybe someone can access the archived version.

see now dead link: http://ratzingerfanclub.com/

I found the following cached on that site.

Preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
St. Paul, 2 Tim 4:2-5

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is head of the Catholic Church's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, whose mission is to "to promote and safeguard the doctrine on the faith and morals throughout the Catholic world" (John Paul II).


As Grand Inquisitor for Mother Rome, Ratzinger keeps himself busy in service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it may rear its ugly head -- and, consequently, has received somewhat of a notorious reputation among the liberal media and 'enlightened' intellegensia of pseudo-Catholic universities.

However, there are those among us who have delved beyond the polemics of his critics, who in familiarizing ourselves with his works have come to admire him both as brilliant Catholic theologian but also as a man whose faith, honesty, integrity, and unswerving devotion to the Truth is readily apparent.

This, then, is our little way of expressing our thanks and moral support. We hope you enjoy it!

[gordianot]

98. I found a mention on Ratzinger history. Does not support a denial...

of Nazi past.

see link: http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/akz/akz2106.htm

These descriptions are preceded by chapters in which Allen reviews
Ratzinger's youth under Hitler's regime, from which he believes the
Cardinal has not yet learned all the lessons ("Having seen fascism in
action, Ratzinger today believes that the best antidote to political
totalitarianism is ecclesial totalitarianism."), superficially discusses
the chief theological influences on his thought, explores his role at
Vatican II, his disappointment at the Council's aftermath, and what
Allen considers the decisive experience of student unrest at the
University of Tübingen in 1968, selectively reviews three of his major
works, and rapidly describes his brief term as Archbishop of Munich
before he was appointed head of the CDF. Much useful information can be
found here, but the treatment is very uneven, inadequately documented,
and marred by historical and bibliographical mistakes.

[Skittles]

99. you are correct, William

very bad to pass judgement on what a teenager would have done during those terrible times

[katinmn]

101. Drafted at age 14 by the Nazis?

I don't think he had a choice.

It's what he's done as an adult that I will be most interested in.

[donheld]

102. Will, my hand is not going up

What a person did at the age 14, more or less at gun point, should not be held against them.

[norml]

103. Doesn't look good on his resume, but I wouldn't hold it against him.

It wasn't like all that was his idea.

[slackmaster]

106. My family had the good sense to leave Germany in the 1870s

Getting oppressed - mainly by Roman Catholics - had a lot to do with the decision.

:evilgrin:

[libertypirate]

109. Will he protected the church over innocent children...

I don't have to judge him to not like those actions...

[roguevalley]

110. enjoy this from www.americablog.org

Ratzinger to the Catholic News Service in 2002, commenting on the Catholic church pedophile priest scandal:

"I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of the sins of Catholic priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign, as the percentage of these offences among priests is not higher than in other categories, and perhaps it is even lower."

"In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type," he said. "The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts.

"Therefore, one comes to the conclusion that it is intentional, manipulated, that there is a desire to discredit the Church. It is a logical and well-founded conclusion."


Sounds pretty stupid to me, 1944 or no ...

[Zenlitened]

121. Ratzi playin' the old 'persecution' card. A familiar rant to anyone...

... living in Massachusetts and watching the story unfold from up-close.

That was usually the second rant.

Thie first was "This is a church matter. Butt out."

:puke:

[RummyTheDummy]

111. Were you there Will?

Because I don't remember seeing you there either.

[theHandpuppet]

112. Ask Anne Frank

Oh, that's right... this 14 year-old girl was exterminated by the Nazis.

[tabasco]

114. Raise your hand if you were just made Pope of the Catholics.

For a church that worships martyrs of faith, it was a terrible decision to elect a Pope who failed his test of faith and courage as a young man.

We're not talking about all 14-year olds in Germany in 1941. We're talking about the one they just made Pope.

[Generic Other]

136. What would Jesus have done?

Didn't he preach to his elders at that age? I don't recall him joining the Herod Youth or the Junior Roman Legion as a child.

[leftofthedial]

117. Opus Dei is enough for me to base judgement on

I lived in Germany in the 60's and met wome very nice people who were Hitler Youth in the day and even fairly dedicated Nazi Party members. At best, it is part of a complete picture of a person.

Opus Dei is an evil RW fundy bunch of assholes. Surprise! Another of gawd's churches run by fundy theocratic fascists. Where do I sign up?

[It was not a pretzel]

118. DU amazes me at times

Most DU'ers are against the death penalty for a person who commits murder at the age of 17 and 364 days but condemn a boy of 13/14 for "not making a stand" against Naziism. Unfuckingbelievable.

WWII wasn't Iraq, it wasn't Vietnam, it was 60-70 million dead ON YOUR BACKYARD. Horror all around, no free press and no internet to spout crap and "resist".

You all go on about "supporting the troops" when it's young men and adults fighting in Iraq, in an all volunteer military, yet abuse a child or 14 for being in the Hitler Youth when REFUSAL TO DO SO MAY HAVE SEEN YOU AND YOUR FAMILY MURDERED!

So get your freaking priorities right, there's enough to attack him on without resorting to cheap Nazi accusations. What next? Are all Lebensborn children Nazi's because Daddy was SS and mother was racially "perfect" ?

FFS

[BlueIris]

120. Thanks for bringing some sanity to this "discussion," Will.

Jeez. A pope just died. A new pope who is disliked, perhaps irrationally, by some has just been apointed. Some people are probably still hurting and dealing with mental and emotional adjustments with regard to their church and possibly their faith. A lot of contributors are being appropriately mindful of those issues, but the ones who are not are starting to piss me off. I mean, a little civility, please? This isn't FR.

[WilliamPitt]

122. I'm not sure what's happening here

beyond the normal big-event hysteria.

I can't think of a reasonable, rational person who could hold a 14-year-old responsible for their actions. We call them 'children' for a reason, and make them go to school for a reason, and surround them with adults for a reason. Add to that the circumstances of Germany in 1941.

Were there other 14 year old children who resisted? Possibly. I haven't seen anyone here offer one as an example, but the Law of Large Numbers says theyre probably was one. Does that possible one condemn Ruatzinger? Unreasonable.

No reasonable person could hold a 14-year-old responsible for their actions...unless there is an agenda in that action, an axe to grind. A prosecutor in Texas, for example, might try to fry a 14 year old for murder...to show that he is 'tough on crime' and to burnish his political credentials.

In other words, an ulterior motive.

Ratzinger is a shit, a terible choice for a dozen reasons. Yet another major religion has a major leader who is an extremist. In this day and age, that is deadly dangerous.

But this Nazi stuf is off the point...unless being able to yell 'Nazi' is the point.

I don't know.

[cally]

123. I refuse to apologize for my opinion

I wasn't there for most of the historical events that I have opinions about. I wonder why I should only express an opinion about this one.

Ratzinger is a man that I don't like. What I've read indicates nothing that I like. Simple as that. I know he is now the Pope but that does not make him likeable.

We can argue all day about how men and women faced Nazism. My own immediate family lived in the US and could have been poster folks for the War effort. We can have an opinion even if we weren't there.

[bhunt70]

124. the renouncement

I think is irrelevant. His desertion of the post seems to be a renouncement in itself.

[Toby109]

125. Organized religion stinks.

Go pray in your bedroom but leave me out of it. Okay?

[Liberty Belle]

126. Jerusalem Post article says Ratzi supports Israel & Jews

Jerusalem Post --

<snip> The choice of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the new pope on Tuesday, Jewish religious leaders say, is a sign that the warming ties initiated by Pope John Paul II between the Vatican and Jews will continue.
<snip>
"His election is confirmation of the cardinals on the issue of continuity," Rabbi David Rosen told The Jerusalem Post Tuesday..."This continuity will be reflected in Catholic-Jewish relations. He has a deep commitment to this issue. And his own national background makes him sensitive to the dangers of anti-Semitism and the importance of Jewish-Catholic reconciliation," said Rosen, the international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee.

"He was also supportive of the establishment of full relations between the Holy See and Israel, and he cares deeply about the welfare of the State of Israel," added Rosen.

Rabbi Israel Singer, chairman of the World Jewish Congress, called Ratzinger the architect of the policy that John Paul II fulfilled with regard to relations with the Jews. "He is the architect of the ideological policy to recognize, to have full relations with Israel," Singer said.

In one indication of his respect for Judaism, Ratzinger authorized in 2002 the publication of a report that stated that "the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain." That document also expressed regret that certain passages in the Christian Bible condemning individual Jews have been used to justify anti-Semitism.…

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1

[NNadir]

127. Better question: Who will apologize for being 14 years old in the US now?

I'm trying my damnedest to get my family out of this country before the collapse, but if I can't and my boys have to live in this ethical hellhole, well I hope they will behave in such a way that through the rest of their lives, no questions can be asked.

It really doesn't matter what Ratzinger was as a boy; what matters is what he is now:

For myself, this selection validates the moral bankruptcy of religion, and Ratzinger's actions in the Nazi era has no bearing whatsoever on the matter. I am very worried that some day, just like an Iranian atheists a few decades ago, I will someday be arrested, possibly tortured or killed for my belief that religion is codified immorality. Still, nothing I've seen in the last four plus years will ever convince me that I am wrong making the ethical choice to despise religion. Religion is a lie on so many levels, it can never be assessed.

[louis c]

128. Why should being indoctrinated

by Hitler's Nazi Germany from 5 years old to 18, and participating as a supporter of the most evil group in the history of mankind disqualify a person from the succession of moral leaders that started with Saint Peter?

I don't know, maybe it's me, that I don't get it

[Sterling]

133. Spare me plz....

:eyes: Oh come on everyone, all the cool kids were doing it, how could anyone say no to the Nazi's? The fact is will many people of all ages gave their lives rather than submit to the Nazi's. None of them get to be considered for Pope, I don't see why Ratz should.

BTW you really have a lot of time on your ands to pick this fight to champion.

[da_chimperor]

135. Thanks for posting this Will, it's nice to have someone else advocating

the same position. :thumbsup:

I'm not sure why, but even though I don't like Ratzinger I thought that people saying he was a Nazi, was evil for not dying rather than succumbing to the Nazi government of Germany, etc. was both wrong and stupid. It's nice to be on the same team with ya. :hi:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. "Forcibly conscripted"??? Have you fallen for the cover story, too?....

Wolf Blitzer stated that Ratzinger's father was a Nazi, a statement that flies in the face of what we've been told repeatedly...that Ratzinger's father was ardently anti-Nazi. So which story is true?

Look at the man's current religious and political thoughts and you'll find Hitler Youth indoctrination forms the solid core of those beliefs.

And I'm wondering why a writer of your stature would throw critical thinking to the four winds by stooping to the use of the was anyone there "red herring"?

[IndianaGreen]

139. Ratzinger's father was a German policeman

Go to any of the Holocaust websites in the US and read about the role the German police played in rounding up Jews and homosexuals for the nazis.

Was Ratzinger's father complicit in the Holocaust? I don't know as of this writing.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

148. It's not a pretty picture, is it? Some of the police forces ended up....

...being added to the "death squad" forces that followed the Wehrmacht into the Soviet Union.

[IndianaGreen]

150. Children are not responsible for the crimes of their parents

However, one cannot ignore the stark contrast between Karol Wojty³a as a slave laborer for the nazis, and Joseph Ratzinger as an anti-aircraft gunner for the nazis.

[LoneDriver]

140. Both my parents were there....

And my father was conscripted into a series of organizations. starting with summer vacation stints as farm labor to a CCC type of group that was eventually subsumed into the Luftwaffe. He had no choice in the matter. Ten years in all.

[wtmusic]

155. Hey -- someone who isn't just speculating!

a refreshing change around here :thumbsup:

[Zenlitened]

144. Raise your hand if you learned something from the Nazi era.

Say, for example, the dangers of demonizing whole groups of people and blaming them for what's "wrong" in the world today.

It would be mighty nice if Ratzinger could raise his hand to that one.

[Misskittycat]

145. I agree with Will.

It seems to me that Will's main points are a: Ratzinger was only a young teenager at the time; b: joining Hitler youth was all but mandatory; and c: the Nazis raised terror to a level almost unfathomable for all of us sitting here in the US in 2005.

As a Jew, I'm very grateful for the many Christians who resisted, but I know that it took an extraordinary amount of courage to resist during that era. The penalty for resistance was usually horrible torture and death - for the resister and his/her family.

I like to think I'm a good person with a strong moral compass, but I doubt if I had been there as a Christian in Europe during that era, I would have been brave enough to resist, or to hide a Jewish family.
To be perfectly candid, during my college years in Washington, DC during the anti-Vietnam protests, I protested, but I was afraid to do anything that would result in my being arrested for a few hours. I was a coward and I didn't want to do anything that would jeopardize my getting into law school.

Today, I'll take a lot of steps to protest the Bush family evil empire, but I'm still too much of a coward to risk being arrested.

[RBHam]

147. Good post, Will

Still...optics.

[w4rma]

152. I'm sorry to say that there is no way to defend Rat, Will. It's pretty

obvious that he still holds the same pro-Nazi views that he held when he supported the Holocaust in his youth. All you have to do is look at what he's done within the Catholic church to see that.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

172. No. That's not what's going on here at all.

I appreciate your support, but you're pegging WillPitt wrongly. WillPitt is on our side and he's just getting a feel for what's going on with this issue. Very busy, very active. Very ethical guy.

[tavalon]

174. Boy, do you ever have an axe to grind!

Not every time Will posts here it's to get fodder for his articles. He generally makes it clear if he's looking for info but even so, most people here don't mind providing information and opinions for him to chew on and possibly write about.

What the heck is your beef, anyway?

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

159. My ass

I'll bet you $1,000, right here and now, that I won't write about this for anyone.

Game?

[specimenfred1984]

160. You're a Gambling Addict?

You can write about whatever you want to, just like I can.

Want to bet $10,000 on that? How about $20,000? $30,000?

Name your price for a free press.

[WilliamPitt]

162. $1,000 will be a good price

for you to pay me.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

167. pzzzzzcheeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tavalon]

176. Ah, it becomes clear

"BTW, I tried to be nice to you in another thread, that was a waste of time."

Methinks you got your feelings hurt. Hence the ax-grinding.

[specimenfred1984]

191. You Are Correct

This is not the 1st time, in fact it's about the tenth time that poster has screamed obscenities at me.

Regardless, I still think he's just trying to sucker people into giving him his research for free and, I do know surviving ex-Nazis and there really are people who hunt them.

Do me a favor and don't scream "FCK YOU" at me OK? That tends to bother people.

[tavalon]

192. Um,

when did I do that? I've never done that to anyone and I didn't do it to you. Might you be talking about another poster?

[WilliamPitt]

193. I'd like to see the link

to where I did that.

[tavalon]

175. Don't do that

It might well become necessary and important for you to write about this very topic. Don't hamstring yourself to prove a point to an axe-grinder.

He's goading you, for what purpose I have no idea but encouraging him isn't a good idea, IMO.

[theliberalavenger]

156. Read this Stirling Newberry piece on Ratzinger

http://www.bopnews.com/archives/003222.html#3222

[WilliamPitt]

164. Erm...mah brutha Stirling

who is an awesome guy..."bovinate" is not a word. Methinks you were reaching for "bloviate."

[zann725]

161. "A rose is a rose is a rose."

On that one, I trust the Bard deeply.

NOT calling a "spade" a "spade" is the most fatal flaw of this Administration, and the Times we live in...which History books (if they're allowed) one day will darkly point out.

Denial has never served either the enabler or the enabled.

[Stockholm]

178. Bravo! n/t

[RPM]

180. Better Question... What are the people here doing now to fight fascism? nt

[bklyncowgirl]

181. My husband's parents were there.

My father-in-law had a Jewish father and a christian mother. His father and two brothers were able to flee the country (one ended up in the American army) but he stayed behind with his stepmother. He kept his head down and was conscripted into various sorts of labor during the war. Eventually, he was arrested. His stepmother somehow proved that he was a good Aryan and he was then drafted into the army.

Alot of Ratzinger's experiences sound similar to what he went through.

Yes, there were heroes in Nazi Germany who risked everything to oppose the regime--Karol Wotijla was one of them. We should note, however, that he was both older and (I'm not sure of this) may have had no living relatives. Refusal to serve meant arrest, torture and a one way ticket to a concentration camp for you and your family. Although I should mention that some of those who seemed to comply on the surface, performed small acts of sabatoge on their own. This can be as simple as a soldier who "misses" a shot or a mechanic who doesn't quite tighten a bolt

I'd always had a self-righteous attitude toward the "good Germans" before I met my in-laws. What I've learned is that the situation was far more complicated and frightening than anyone who has not lived under these circumstances can believe.

I don't like Ratzinger's theology but unless someone can prove that he was a pro-nazi leader and not an unwilling conscript I find many of the posts here to be ignorant and self righteous.

[mopaul]

185. it could have happened to any one of us

we all just missed it by a few years and a few thousand miles.

i'm over it, he was a kid. jeez.

i don't see how anyone could seriously call the man a nazi, but, i'm just a brain in a tank.

[Ganja Ninja]

186. Exactly right Will.

Right here and now we may all be residing in the next Nazi Germany. We have no fore knowledge of what the next four years will bring. Our great leader is already responsible for over 100,000 deaths. I don't see people risking their lives to stop him. Do we act now or wait until the number of dead gets over 1 million? Who's going to go first? It's easy to talk about what someone should have done way back when now that you have the knowledge of how it all turned out.

[Pockets]

188. Excellent post

Incriminating Ratzinger for his conscription at age 14 similarly blames millions of others who were unlucky to live in an evil empire.

A lot of Dems and Libs might be working for Republican run corporations because they have no choice. Maybe there are 14 year olds with paper routes for Right Wing newspapers. Should they be held accountable for the rest of their lives?

[MSchreader]

189. My comments

I admit, Ratzinger's time in the HJs and Wehrmacht are disturbing. But his organizational affiliations do not, relatively speaking, bother me as much as how much of the fascist ideology he seems to have assimilated.

He is one of the most open supporters of the fascist Opus Dei organization in the Catholic Church, and supported the canonization of Josemaria Escriva, the founder of OD and a minister in the fascist Franco regime in Spain, and Pius XII, who openly collaborated with the Italian Fascisti and German Nazis.

He attacks "secularism" in a manner eerily similar to that of Father Coughlin -- i.e., as a cheap cover for his anti-Semitism. He was instrumental in the destruction of the Liberation Theology movement in Latin America and Africa, and oversaw the purges of several dissident Catholic theologians (Drewermann, Kung and Boff come immediately to mind).

Ratzinger is also well known for his reactionary views on contraception, women's rights and gay rights. In 1992, Ratzinger went so far as to argue that the basic democratic rights (freedom of speech, assembly, etc.) of gays and lesbians could be "legitimately limited". He has been in the forefront of Vatican opposition to forms of contraception that could limit the spread of AIDS in places like southern Africa, where one of every four people is infected.

So, does it really matter how long he wore a brown shirt? No, even though, if you go by where he stands, it seems that he never took it off.

Martin

[Pockets]

190. He draws a clear line

I'm a novice here, but this is the way I see it. There is no way the Catholicism could become a liberal religion. It's better that Catholics know exactly where the church stands on issues and let them have the free will to decide on their own how to deal with their decisions. He promotes moral relativism instead of moral pluralsim. It requires people to be more mindful of their actions.

Regarding the particulars:

I'm sorry gays might be alienated but these days it probably is the most prudent thing for the church. If you believe he's anti-semitic, well, he's not Jewish, he's Catholic, so that makes a little sense.

Regarding his view against contraception, it's my understanding that, according to tradition, he probably has never has sex, has no idea what it's like, so of course he's going to be a prude about it, for his own sanity's sake. Don't expect him to think like a normal guy.