I'm Sorry, But You Can't Defend Ratzinger For Fighting With The Nazis

[Dave Sund]

He chose the coward's way out. Jesus and his Apostles didn't join the Roman army or recant what they said. They were all killed for their beliefs. Early Christians were persecuted but they were not silenced. Good Christian men and women do not remain silent in the face of persecution, even if it means death. I can bring up many examples of Christians who, rather than pledging loyalty to the Nazis, were thrown into concentration camps. Silence in the face of injustice is tacit approval of that injustice. I don't care that he was forced into service. It doesn't make him a terrible person, but it certainly doesn't make him worthy of being the pope. I say this as a Catholic who is deeply hurt by the selection of Ratzinger as pope.

[LoZoccolo]

1. Jesus also said to forgive people.

Right?

[babylonsister]

6. And JPII obviously forgave him, too. I'm so glad

I haven't been judged by my youthful errors. And at the age of 14, did he even know what his future would bring?

[Hugin]

9. Some kids had no future at 14... Like Ann Frank.

http://www.spa3.k12.sc.us/WebQuests/Diary%20of%20Anne%20Frank/Index.html

(eom)

[Ken Burch]

33. And some kids that age in Germany RESISTED and were martyred

They were called THE WHITE ROSE society.

If Benedict wants to atone, he should propose them for sainthood.

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/wr.htm

[CentralEuropeanDude]

41. sorry, some facts

Sophie Magdalena Scholl 1921-1943
Hans Scholl 1918-1943
Alexander Schmorell 1917-1943
Christoph Probst 1919-1943
Willi Graf 1919-1943

Sophie, the youngest of them, was 21 when they started
"Die Weißen Rose" in 1942. Before that, she was a member of
the BDM (Bund Deutscher Mädel, the hitler youth for girls)
and her brother Hans was member of the hilter youth.

they were all murdered in 1943

You see, it doesn't say much if someone was in the hilter youth.

[BuyingThyme]

7. No, Jesus said, "I hope the Nazis become Popes"

Isn't that what you mean to say?

You're talking about the Pope, right? Not forgiveness.

[Guaranteed]

15. LOL nt

[LoZoccolo]

32. I took a bunch of people off ignore to read THIS?

Oh well.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[atreides1]

10. Jesus Said to Forgive

He never said anything about forgetting. Being forgiven does not mean you're not resposible for what it is that you are being forgiven for.

It only means that the ones you committed the crime against have forgiven you for what you did to them.

True forgiveness comes from true penance.

[Jdemsindiana]

12. Screew that

All Jews will never fucking foregive the Nazis

[Dave Sund]

16. Absolutely

He should not be given a free pass for a terrible mistake he made in his youth. Someone who was complicit in such a great injustice should not be the leader of the Roman Catholic Church.

[pnorman]

30. He's forgiven.

But qualified to be the "spiritual" leader of over a billion, as well as a sort of moral compass for many more? He has FAILED that test. The fact that so many others of us would likely have failed the same sort of test, changes absolutely NOTHING.

The Cardinals have chosen the safe and self-serving path. I'm saving my scorn fror THEM, rather than the new Pope.

I'm writing as an Agnostic, so I don't have a "vote" in this. But do I have a voice.

pnorman

[Maine-ah]

38. yeah, tell that one to the

"religious right"

[BurtWorm]

2. Unfortunately, evidently, lots of people can and will defend him.

If they want to defend him, maybe they should take a whack at all the other awful stuff about him that he allegedly had more control over as an adult.

[Renew Deal]

17. I am not a Ratzinger defender or a Catholic.

There are a lot of people that hate religion and/or Catholicism so much that they are using this as an excuse to attack the church, catholics and religion.

[Dave Sund]

31. And I am not one of them

I'm a Catholic, very concerned with the direction of the Church, and appalled that they elected an Opus Dei member and former Nazi to be the Pope.

[Inland]

3. Martyrdom isn't for everybody. He's the pope, not a saint.

I would feel pretty weird holding that standard up for anybody.

[Ken Burch]

8. what a tragic day for the Church

Obviously, this will be the death of compassion and mercy within the Catholic hirearchy for awhile.

I'll be offering my progressive Catholic friends sanctuary from the Inquisition.

"Habemus Fuhrer!"

[unblock]

14. hes not just "anybody". to what standard SHOULD the pope be held?

i don't think anyone's saying to excommunicate him.
and ok, forgive him, fine.

but surely they could have found a pope who didn't have something like this in his past?

[Inland]

22. No, since martyrs are by definition dead. nt

[Renew Deal]

4. The cowards way out was to avoid getting killed and then desert

the military while it was compulsive to serve?

[specimenfred1984]

5. I'm So Evil For Not Liking Ex-Nazi Religious Leaders!

I'm sure Goebbels would've made a great minister too!

These people who want to defend a Nazi are truly a joke to me, a walking sack of $hit-filled hypocracy.

"Yeah, my Pope took part in a genocide"!!!

[Jdemsindiana]

11. Ten STEPS BACK

For Catholics what were they thinking?

[Guaranteed]

13. He's what, 80 now?

That means he was 16 in 1941.

16....old enough to know what he was doing?

[Hav]

18. .

He was actually 14 in 1941. Today it's easy for us to judge.

[Guaranteed]

24. Is he 78 or 80 now? nt

[Renew Deal]

28. I thought he was 78.

[IMSA]

29. If He Was Good Enough For JP II , He's Good Enough For Me

Pretty hard not to join the Nazi Party with a gun to your head. I think a lot of DUer's need to brush up on their German history from about 1936 through 1945 and then get back to us.

IMSA

[Hobarticus]

36. Facts are inconvenient...they've been at it all day...

But hey, welcome to DU!!!

[Kellanved]

19. Pal, I can do whatever I want

What angers me is that I have to defend a person I despise. There is no evidence that he has ever bloodied his hand, he deserted at the first opportunity.

I don't know what idea you have of the situation German youths were in: the school classes were sent to the front, with teachers and everyone. He was in one such class. Many students of such classes committed hideous crimes, but there is no evidence of Ratzinger ever having been part in such a crime.
And the Christian position regarding forgiving is pretty well known, I believe.

Look at the things he wrote in the past decade. There is more than enough right there. Go against the man Ratzinger, not the child Ratzinger.

[Democrats_win]

25. his "writings" will show who he is. Honestly, his early years are ok.

Nothing too alarming.

[Guaranteed]

20. Yeah, just like all those guards who killed Jews in the concentration

camps.

They were just following orders. They didn't have a choice, you know?

[MemphisTiger]

21. You can't help anyone when you're dead

I think you're being too hard on the guy. At least listen to his positions and judge accordingly.

[Dave Sund]

27. Oh, I am

There's plenty enough there for me to despise him. For the record, that is what deeply hurts me about his selection. But his involvement with the Nazis is a terrible scar on his reputation.

[Ken Burch]

35. His position on gays is essentially the Nazi position...

[MemphisTiger]

40. Isn't it the same as John Paul II?

Maybe we should give this guy a chance and not be so quick to throw the Nazi word out there.

[Avalux]

23. I'm not crazy about the guy, BUT

He was only 14 when he was forced to fight - and he did go AWOL several years later. He spent time in an Allie POW camp before joining the seminary.

Maybe 14 is kinda young to really know what's going on? I don't think you can fault him for doing as he was told, to fight for his country.

[LanternWaste]

37. I agree.

I agree.

As per CBS News, his entire school class (plus the instructors) was forced to man an AA battery during and to receive classroom instruction.

I'm looking back to when I was fourteen and realize how gullible and naive I actually was. I simply wasn't aware of the world outside of school, my pals and girls. If someone in "Authority" told me do something that didn't appear to result in the immediate destruction of life or property, I'd do it. And if he could frame it in such a way as to make me believe I was defending my country, well...

Morality and consequences are not something teens give a lot of thought to (and, judging some few years of substitute teaching a while back, it doesn't appear to have changed too much).

Additionally, he was born in '27. Hitler came to power in '33, so from the age of six until he was eighteen, Ratzinger was constantly under a barrage of propaganda and nationalism from National Socialism.

Maybe all of us would like to say what we'd do in the same circumstances, but saying what we think we'd do isn't necessarily the same thing we'd *actually* do. I'd *like* to believe that if I had fought in WWII, I'd have been a hero and saved a platoon from massacre, on the other hand, I simply have no idea. Indeed, I might have crawled under a rock and hid until the shooting stops.

[stanwyck]

43. we do understand he was young

and under considerable pressure. Yet his past as part of a regime which murdered thousands should cancel his eligibility as Pope. Not for personal reasons, but because of the gross insensitivity to those who were martyred. He is reportedly a fine person who has done much good in his lifetime.
But as a symbol as powerful as the Pope, his selection is wrong. The Catholic Church was complicit in the persecution of the Jews. Why aggravate such a horrible history with the selection of a former Nazi? There was no one else?

[arwalden]

26. You Are Absolutely Correct...

... but just you watch. There is still a LOUD contingent of people here who adore being victims. Anyone who writes any negative or harsh word about this pope, the church, or its policies will ALWAYS be countered with claims of "you're-offending-me" and cries of "Catholic-bashing".

There's no winning.

[Hobarticus]

34. You're right...he should be dead.

How better to serve the Lord than at His side?

:silly:

Seriously, folks...

[stanwyck]

42. Agree. Being a Nazi is a dealbreaker

he can atone and become a compassionate person who does the world good through his actions and deeds. And, apparently, he has.
But he can't be Pope. What you do should have consequences. And being a Nazi should be a dealbreaker for being Pope.
Or maybe we just throw all standards out.
And Tom DeLay does get the Congressional Medal of Honor. or Freedom. Or both.
Because it just doesn't matter. Lie about serving your country, like Bush, because it doesn't matter.
Lie about WMD. It's OK. Because the ends justify the means. Even if the "ends" are highly questionable.
There is no accountability.

[GumboYaYa]

44. Does this same analysis apply to John Kerry fighting in Vietnam?

Kerry actually killed people in the name of an unjust war. Is he more morally reprehensible than Ratzinger?