The New Republic assaults Juan Cole: JUAN COLE'S BAD BLOG

[Larkspur]

Hey, give you gals and guys a break form the Pope Ratzinger threads...

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050425&s=karsh042505

Before September 11, 2001, Juan Cole, a history professor at the University of Michigan, enjoyed anonymity outside his professional circle. He was a leading figure in the Middle East Studies Association of North America (mesa), editing for five years its flagship publication, The International Journal of Middle East Studies. (In 2004, he was elected the Association's incoming president.) But his research on certain esoteric aspects of the eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Middle East (e.g., the genesis of the Baha'i faith) was unlikely to bring him attention in the field and offered little hope of public acclaim. Then came September 11. When mesa came under intense criticism after the terrorist attacks for having failed to educate generations of students in the realities of the Middle East, Cole was livid. Finding it difficult to place opinion pieces in the mainstream press that could present reality as he saw it, he had the prescience to realize the immense opportunities that an online diary offered.

Cole started his blog, which he called Informed Comment and subtitled Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion, in April 2002. It quickly established itself as a popular source of information on the Middle East, attracting a reported 200,000 page-views per month. Informed Comment also caught the eye of journalists, earning Cole dozens of mentions in the country's top dailies and newsweeklies, an hour-long appearance on NPR's "Fresh Air," and 14 appearances on the "NewsHour" with Jim Lehrer. The Village Voice advised its readers, "If you're not already visiting Juan Cole's Informed Comment blog (juancole.com) on a daily basis, now's the time to get in the habit," while L.A. Weekly called Cole's blog "a must-read for anyone seriously interested in Iraq." In 2003, Informed Comment won the 2003 Koufax Award for best expert blog, and, last year, Cole was even asked to testify before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the fissures within Iraqi society and his ideas for creating a stable Iraqi government.

The appeal of Cole's blog is easy to see. It is highly readable, stripped of the jargon common to other Middle East academic researchers. And Cole provides a wealth of information on the Sisyphean U.S. effort to reconstruct Iraq (a country that Cole himself has never visited) and the violent opposition to this endeavor, at times from Arabic newspapers not normally available to Western readers (Cole, unlike many journalists--and even some Middle East experts--reads Arabic). What's more, Cole has called himself "an outspoken hawk in the war on terror," and his views on the invasion of Afghanistan and the Iraq war, both of which he supported (while also voicing concerns about U.S. unilateralism), seem to bolster his credibility, reassuring readers that he doesn't suffer from the knee-jerk anti-Americanism found in many Middle East studies departments.

But, unfortunately, Cole suffers from many other common Arabist misconceptions that deeply prejudice and compromise his writing. Having done hardly any independent research on the twentieth-century Middle East, Cole's analysis of this era is essentially derivative, echoing the conventional wisdom among Arabists and Orientalists regarding Islamic and Arab history, the creation of the modern Middle East in the wake of World War I, and its relations with the outside world. Worse, Cole's discussion of U.S. foreign policy frequently veers toward conspiratorial anti-Semitism. This is hardly the "informed" commentary Cole claims it to be.

Ah, yes, the old "critc of Israel is anti-Semitic" ploy. I see Juan Cole is getting too popular and the American-Israeli junta has to squash him or distort his blog before the majority of Americans demand to know why we're paying for Isreal to keep building illegal settlements.

[Kagemusha]

1. He reads Arab sources to learn about Arab viewpoints. Shock.

He should only be reading Israeli ones, right?

He's an academic. Geez.

[tedzbear]

2. I am a huge fan of Juan Cole.

He knows what he is talking about.

[acmejack]

3. The TNR has been sinking ever deeper

I am really, really tired of this. Most people don't realize how we are compromised by AIPAC and their machinations. The anti-semitic label causes people to be reluctant to conduct a conversation we need to have.

[confludemocrat]

4. New Republic: DLC House organ --N/T

[Larkspur]

5. I also don't recall Juan Cole supporting the Iraq War.

I think he did support the Afghani war because we had to get rid of Al Queda and the Taliban were housing them. Cole most likely supported containing Saddam, but I don't recall him being an advocate for the Iraq War.

[Last Lemming]

7. You're right

He never did--that alone is enough to make you go "whaaaaa?"

[frictionlessO]

9. Same here... his views are respected in the Arab world because they

are fair. Im Jewish (not practicing but still feel the blood), many Jewish friends of mine read his blog.

It is not in any way whatsoever anti-semitic to despise the Likudniks and their awful policies. Just like it is not bigotry to wonder why the hell the Palestinians kept giving power to Arafat. Most thinking feeling people of intellect and compassion do not hate the "people" they hate the policies of the "peoples" leaders.

[grytpype]

6. The New Republican.

They aren't fit to spit-shine Cole's loafers.

[Larkspur]

8. I emailed this article to Juan Cole.

Wonder if he'll respond to it on his blog.

[Colorado Blue]

10. I'm not familiar with Juan Cole's site. I am, however,

familiar with antisemitism.

Your comment was OTT, brother, inaccurate, lacking in historical perspective, and bigoted.

If you want some links, I can post some. People don't care whether a person is a Jewish American or a French Jew or an Israeli - they are just screaming for Jewish blood.

This has gone on long before Israel was a dream, and nothing Israel does or doesn't do has changed it. The wars that have plagued that state since the very day of its inception, and which have resulted directly in the I/P situation we now face, were driven by antisemitism as much as by any other factor. Slanderous and bigoted texts like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" - the original Jewish Conspiracy tale - are still being taught in Palestinian schools and have been dramatized on Egyptian TV.

The very fact that you think Israel has a "junta" in Washington is proof that you have bought into these ideas. I find this alarming in a so-called "progressive", who should know better.

Moreover, Jewish people have lived on the West Bank, continuously, for thousands of years. You may disagree in principle with the settlements, as I do in part with some - the outlying settlements - but not with others - around Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, where the state of Israel is less than 7 miles wide.

What you CANNOT do, is deny continuous Jewish presence on the land, or the fact that the original Mandate granted to the Jewish people for their homeland contained not only Israel and OT, but the Kingdom of Jordan as well. The State that exists today, is a mere sliver of that original grant, and has been paid for with decades of continuous war, and the expulsion of over 1,000,000 Middle Eastern Jews from their age-old communities.

The settlements in question take up about 2% of West Bank land, land which has supported a Jewish presence for about 3500 years before Islam, 3000 years before the Roman occupation and the Diaspora.

No doubt, some will be deserted and given over to the Palestinians, but others will probably remain, primarily those near the big cities and the fragile waistline of the State.

Does that seem so unreasonable to you? And does it seem so unreasonable that the US would stand beside an embattled minority?

As a progressive, I should think that would appeal to you. It is a principled stance, and one which we strive to maintain within our borders.

[catastrophicsuccess]

11. dude you are seriously brain-washed

The land is stolen and the people who were living there were kicked out. Simple Ethnic cleansing by brute force.

[Colorado Blue]

12. And the Jewish people were kicked out of THEIR homes

TOO. Did you read that part? The Middle East is virtually judenrein. I'd say it's time to move on.

But for the record, some of the Sephardim - the "oriental" Jews who lost everything as revenge for the Palestinian diaspora, are now going to sue. This is not really for money, but to set the record straight. Few people, yourself obviously included, are aware of this little aspect of history.

As far as the flight of the Palestinians, I suggest you read CONTEMPORARY sources, such as Glubb Pasha, who lead the Arab Legion into battle in 1948. There's been a lot of revisionist and contradictory "history" written since. You should get some balance in your outlook.

I don't think ANYBODY knows the whole truth but one thing is certain: the charter of the new state EXPRESSLY offered full citizenship to EVERYBODY. And today, 1,000,000 or more of Israel's 6,000,000 citizens are Arab. Successive peace offers have been made, as recently as 1999, promising statehood, access to Jerusalem, even the settlements, and have been refused.

WHY didn't the Arabs accept the proferred olive branch in 1948? The first war did not have to happen. Everything - EVERYTHING - followed from that, from the attack by five massed armies. I've not mentioned the decades of murders before the state was ever created. You should study this, as well.

No doubt, that changed the outlook of the Israeli leaders. The old ideal - to live side by side with the Arabs - was shattered by hatred and fear. And then, there were the victims of the Holocaust. That wasn't part of the original plan, either.

I suggest you read some history. Study the Nazi, al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, who served with Hitler, and was promised by Hitler, the right to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East. I'm posting a link from an ISLAMIC website - not all Muslims are radicals, you know - and yes I've checked out the credentials, and have done extensive research on al Husseini and the poison that he spread. And the connections with the Nazi philosophy still exist in the M.E. and of course, throughout the world.

Regardless of what happened, isn't it is time to find some CREATIVE solutions to the problems of the people who live in this region? The Arab solution has been to destroy the state of Israel. Is that what you would like to see?

I would like to see jobs, enterprise zones, creative (not reactionary) input from the Arab states, in the form of land and houses. These people are not different from Syrians, Egyptians or Jordanians. They should get help that doesn't involve a suicide bomber or a war.

I would like to see some creative input from the UN, from America, from the European states. What about YOU?

Here are two links. I have reams if you want more, articles on al Husseini from Germany, from Serbia. I have reams of links about the antisemitic garbage that is being spewed forth today.

The roots of this conflict are not exactly, I suspect, what you think they are.

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/index.htm

http://www.azanderson.org/anderson_report_geo_political_Global_Nazism_Muslim_Brotherhood_filesjuly_11.htm

[catastrophicsuccess]

13. Who kicked Jews out of their homes?

here is some for you to read
http://www.palestineremembered.com/

[Colorado Blue]

16. Are you really unfamiliar with this history? Or what?

The site you link to, I can't comment on until I have studied it.

But surely, you were aware of the expulsion of Middle Eastern Jewry?

[catastrophicsuccess]

18. sure am

but who did it?

[Colorado Blue]

21. Here, I'm posting some links. This started in 1948 and went

on for some 20-some years, when a Jewish population in the Middle East was expelled from their homes. Most went to Israel but others went to the New World.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Israel_from_Arab_lands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_refugees

Good overview of the Jewish people (it's kind of long but has a lot of information)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish

This is a good article about the war of 1948, gives valuable background information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Background

Holocaust in North Africa
This article shows how Nazism started to infest the Middle East.

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~shaked/Holocaust/lectures/lec10b.html

Carefully written and researched articles on the exodus of M.E. Jewry:

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/background/jews.htm

I have more links but these are a good start. There's quite a bit written about this, yet it isn't widely known or understood.

Essentially, over a period of about 20 years, Arab governments systematically purged their Jewish populations. Here's a link to a case study, Tunisia:

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~shaked/Tunisia/Jews.html

[catastrophicsuccess]

24. you have it backwards

1948 is when Palestinians were forced from their homes at gunpoint.

[Colorado Blue]

26. There was a WAR. People on both sides were hurt. The

fact that 1948 saw injuries to the Palestinian people does not mean there weren't corresponding injuries to the Israeli people.

Please. This is not a black/white situation. Read! And think about the role hate and fear and falsehood and blame have played in this tragedy.

Are we going to keep this up, or are we going to look at the past, admit that we ALL suffered, and go forward to try and make a better life for everybody? We've GOT to be able to see each other through the fog!

Otherwise, we are going to be locked into a death spiral forever.

WHY? So we can fulfill the hateful fantasies of a few horrible people?

Why can't we reach out to each other and heal? We have work to do, this planet is suffering. More hatred, more war, more denial, will doom us all.

[catastrophicsuccess]

27. You are wrong and severly brain-washed

When you mentioned that the Jews were kicked from their land i assumed you meant when they were spread out to all of Europe due to failed revolt against the Roman Empire. I had no idea you were talking about 1948. I suffered none, i am neither Palestininan nor Jewish, just an objectived observer. The History from 1948 on certainly is very much black and white. Land has been stolen from the Palestinian people by force of arms.

Yes the Jews have suffered much in History at the hands of the Roman Empire and Nazi Germany, but not at the hands of the Palestinian people. It is the biggest lie of the century.

[Colorado Blue]

31. Did you READ the links I posted? About the expulsion of

the Jews from their Middle Eastern communities, following the war of 1948?

This is history. This is NOT make-believe. If you READ THE LINKS you will find that this occurred all over the Middle East, not in Israel/Palestine, where the Israelis were able to hold onto their territory, but in cities from North Africa all the way to Iraq.

Also if you have even a rudimentary knowledge of WWII you will know that Nazi Germany and Vichy France occupied North Africa.

And to say the Jewish people haven't suffered at the hands of the Palestinians, or the militias in their midst, is beyond ridiculous. And of course the Palestinian people have suffered, it's dreadful. That is why SOME OF US want to build a lasting peace. Which we can only do if we look long and hard at the past, and understand how we wound up here.

There have been these wars:

1948
1956 (the so-called Suez Crisis)
1967 6-Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War

and the Lebanese Civil War, which went on for many years, starting in 1975, and in which Yasser Arafat and the PLO, who had been evicted from Jordan for fomenting a civil war and trying to kill King Hussein, played a serious role. In fact it was Arafat who was primarily responsible for dragging Israel into that war, since after being evicted from Jordan he started firing at Israelis from the heights above, in Lebanon.

Link to Lebanese Civil War and Black September in Jordan, how the PLO got evicted and went to Lebanon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

There have also been wave after wave of terror attacks across the border. Why do you think they are building that awful wall??????

Granted, the Palestinian people have, in many of these wars, been stuck in the middle. Arab armies from Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and other Arab states carried the bulk of the military load. They were armed and financed by the Soviet Union, as was Yasser Arafat. Now, we have Hizzbollah and other radical Shi'a groups, armed and funded by Iran.

However, even before Israel was a state there had been many, many instances of atrocities within Mandate Palestine.

PLEASE READ THE HISTORY. And do NOT rely upon biased websites. Any history you read you should be able to cross-check with historical documents like encyclopedia, preferably with two or three. Everything I have posted here today has been checked and cross-checked and RE-CHECKED.

I have given you NON-BIASED links, historical links, from encyclopediae and scholarly publications. Please do me the favor of reading them before you say that I am wrong about this. I have studied this history for over 30 years.

Also, I have spent most of my adult life working with Arab and Islamic history, culture and have worked with people from all over the Middle East. So please do not even THINK of accusing me of bias or hatred for Arab or Muslim people. That just isn't so. My life has been entertwined with theirs.

As far as the Palestinian people of today are concerned, I am VERY DETERMINED that they should have a better life and a better future. I am trying, and other people of good will are trying, to come up with creative solutions to their problems, solutions like enterprise zones, investment in educational resources, ideas that can move people into the future instead of backwards, into a horrible past.

There is no reason why the people of this region can't have a better future and turn the swords into plowshares. What I refuse to buy into are more wars and more hatred.

I really do not see why your mind is so DAMN closed. It seems to me that I am the person who is trying to help the Palestinians, whereas YOU are unable to look at a book, or even READ THE ARTICLES I POSTED, WHICH ARE HISTORICAL MATERIAL. You are therefore part of the problem. It is IGNORANCE which makes violence and war, not KNOWLEDGE.

Frankly, I find this very frightening. If people won't learn history we really ARE doomed to repeat it.

Go to a library and look up the topics. The articles give only very brief overviews and they therefore do not tell the whole story. But they are A START. I've given you some keys. Turn them.

[Coastie for Truth]

35. And BP, and Shell, and ExxonMobil and TexacoChevron

were conceived without sin, immaculately conceived their businesses, and are wholly innocent of any meddling in the ME - and of ripping off the Arab proletariat and encouraging conflict.

I have only been in the energy business for thirty of the last forty years.

[HamdenRice]

14. Scary stuff ...

You are so far out of reach of any conception of facts or history it's scary that someone like you exists and can argue the things you do.

It just goes to show that when it comes to tribe, blood or race, a person's thinking can become completely clouded and subjective -- worse than subjective, but completely out of touch with reality.

[Colorado Blue]

15. No, you are the one who is out of touch. This is historical

fact, it is well documented. Would you prefer a link to an encyclopedia?

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed_Amin_al-Husseini

You should follow the links to read about atrocities committed against Jewish people throughout the Middle East, and also how this "mufti" was put into power by the British. He was no religious person at all.

He also appears in documentation from the Nuremberg trials:

http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti5.htm

I have more, including documents from the United Nations. I have sources from Germany and Serbia, as well. If you want to see those I will post them.

By the way, the original link I posted is from an Islamic website and was created by an Imam, a Sunni religious leader who is also a Ph.D. and a professor of Islamic history. Were you assuming he is - gasp - JEWISH?

I don't think I'm the one with some sort of racial problem, which is clouding my judgement.

You, on the other hand, apparently didn't notice that the site I linked to is Islamic. Rather, you have made an assumption about my heritage - and that, instead of actually reading the information, I find revealing.

[HamdenRice]

20. At the risk of replying ...

and having the whole thing moved to the I/P forum, here is where your writing is utterly illogical and clouded by issues of race, tribe and blood:

1. Your first lines are about people screaming for Jewish blood. WTF??? How is Juan Coles blog or any of the posts in this thread screaming for blood? Dude that's just inflammatory paranoia!

2. While referring to an Israeli junta is colorfully over the top, I doubt any reasonable objective person would disagree that AIPAC is one of the most powerful lobbies in DC and distorts policy. Jeez, the FBI is even investigating illegal leaks to the likud government from within the DOD.

3. The fact that Jewish people lived on the WB is irrelevant tribal, racial thinking. Imagine if we used any other racial group and historical situation: There have been Dutchmen on the island of Manhattan since the 1600s. Therefore Holland, or some Dutch-American state has the right to sovereignty over New York??? You are confusing presence or residence with sovereignty.

That's just irrational tribal thinking. What on earth does the Jewish presence on the WB 3000 years ago have to do with sovereignty issues today? My ancestors came from West Africa. Imagine Black Americans going back to carve out a state there because our ancestors were there thousands of years ago!

As for my assumptions, I never assumed you were of any race, tribe or group. I said "tribe, race and blood" cloud thinking -- eg even when say a white person thinks about Hutu/Tutsi conflict, because it is a racial, tribal issue, thinking gets clouded. I did not say your race or tribe clouded your thinking in I/P.

[Colorado Blue]

22. OK, my comments about people screaming for blood are

a reflection of actual speeches that are, and have been, aimed at Jewish people and at Israel. This is by no means an ancient phenomenon. Any study of political propaganda from before the establishment of the State of Israel, up to the present time, will reveal verbiage that would make a Hitler blush.

There are several links to this in a thread called "Modern antisemitism" in I/P.

I did not accuse Juan Cole of this. However, it is and has been, a distressingly common refrain throughout the Middle East. Attacks on Jewish people world wide are greatly on the increase. I attribute this at least in part, to the propogation of falsehoods and lies. Again, I refer you to the documention cited above. If you can't find it, let me know. I am not even including the American Nazis, who are becoming increasingly visible.

Yes, "junta" is OTT. And compared to the influence of the oil-producing states, AIPAC has next to zero. A careful examination of Anglo-American politics in the M.E., and of the nature and composition of the oil industry itself, should reveal that the elephant in the soup bowl isn't some Jewish conspiracy, but the oil industry and its connections - for example, to Saudi Arabia. The Bush family is intimately connected there. Again, there are books on this topic.

The continuous presence of the Jewish people on the West Bank isn't racial or rascist thinking. This is the original homeland of the Jewish people. The spiritual connection to Jerusalem has kept this people together throughout 2,000 years of Diaspora. You really cannot simplify this matter into a matter or race or nationality. It is much vaster, yet more ephemeral, than that.

I will post a poem about this later, from the 11th century, when I have time.

What IS rascist, is a suggestion that the West Bank should be rendered free of Jews.

Beyond that, whatever else you might think, Eretz Israel was established and exists today, primarily as a much-needed lifeboat. It is unfortunate, but repeated persecutions and attempts at exterminations have created a garrison state.

As far as sovereignty is concerned, the land was given over to the Jewish people for their homeland by a series of transactions, including large land purchases, declarations of the League of Nations, the United Nations, and so forth. It was also fought for in a series of wars, notably the 6-Day War, to which I can append a link if you would like, and which was a DEFENSIVE war.

What the hell, here's a link, including the expressed desire by Nasser to destroy Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Day_War

Perhaps, you believe that Judaism is just irrational tribal thinking. Maybe so. Who, after all, would rationally buy 5,768 years of aggravation?

But, I'll tell you something: if you, as a person, live only in the rational world, you are missing something. More importantly, perhaps, as a political thinker you are missing something important about the nature of humanity.

There are dimensions to life that can't be expressed by linear thought.

So what the hey, here's one of my favorite poems:

"Now, When the Waters are Pressing Mightily"

Now, when the waters are pressing mightily
on the walls of the dams,
now, when the white storks, returning,
are transformed in the middle of the firmament
into fleets of jet planes,
we will feel again how strong are the ribs
and how vigorous is the warm air in the lungs
and how much daring is needed to love on the exposed plain,
when the great dangesr are arched above,
and how much love is required
to fill all the empty vessels
and the watches that stopped telling time,
and how much breath,
a whirlwind of breath,
to sing the small song of spring.

Yehuda Amichai, 1924-2000, translated from the Hebrew by Leon Wieseltier

[HamdenRice]

29. Thanks for your thoughtful reply .... but!! +edit

Here is the crux or one of the cruxes of the issue. You wrote:

"But, I'll tell you something: if you, as a person, live only in the rational world, you are missing something. More importantly, perhaps, as a political thinker you are missing something important about the nature of humanity."

Generally, I live politically only in the rational world. I attended divinity school and have a strong interest in certain aspects of Christian spirituality.

But the problem is, when you start talking about spiritual connections or rationales, almost by definition, you are closing off conversation. That's because your "irrational" reasons for feeling a connection to Judea can only be shared by someone of your tradition. A Palestinian Muslim's irrational belief system does not recognize your spiritual rationales, and you do not recognize his connection through his religious stories to Mohammed's ascendance to heaven from Jerusalem.

And neither of you would accept the primacy of Palestinian Christians, Armenians, Orthodox Greeks and Roman Catholics to Bethlehem!

If I tried to explain why Israel MUST leave Bethlehem because it is the birthplace of Jesus -- well we won't get very far, would we.

Similarly any claim that eretz Israel is the original homeland of the Jewish people is as useless as a rationale for non-Jews as the claim that the Cape is the original and exclusive homeland of the Dutch Afrikaner people (which is not accepted by black South Africans) or that Nigeria is the original homeland of the African Americans. It's just a non-starter if you don't believe the religious/fairy tale explanation.

The only hope for conversation and resolution of these issues is in the secular world of law, especially the law of nations and human rights.

Under those laws, Israel can establish its right to exist through certain grants by Britain recognized by the League of Nations and UN, through humanitarian necessity after WWII, and through the de facto establishment of the state of Israel.

But it cannot establish the right to the West Bank through the 6 day war any more than the US can establish the right to the Iraqi oil fields through the Iraq War. In order to disincentivize nations against wars of conquest, which was the bane of the last 3 centuries, all nations have agreed that no nation can legitimately claim territory through wars of annexation.

Moreover, just as Israel's best secular argument for legitimacy is its de facto existence, population majority within the pre 1967 borders, and exercise of the right to self-determination through the state, so all secular international law points to the rights of Palestinians to self-determination on the West Bank, and as a result of their de facto population majority on the territories. All arguments about what you perceive to be the perfidity of Arab regimes in 1948 or 1967 or 1973 are irrelevant, because the simple fact of Palestinian existence, majority and self-determination are all that matter. You cannot impute some sin of Nasser or for that matter of Arafat to the Palestinian people.

There is no alternative to rational secular argument because otherwise no one will accept the other's basic premises.

Added: BTW one of the saddest things about the conflict is the assumption that if Israel returns the WB, then not only do the Israelis have to leave but their houses must be demolished so that no Palestinians could use them. In a rational world, the creation of Palestinian sovereignty would simply require the Israelis on the WB become citizens of Palestine or resident aliens, subject to the Palestinian authority's right to redistribute resources like water and land.

[Colorado Blue]

32. Thank you for the thoughtful post. Your points are well-taken

and we are not in disagreement.

First, I want to make it clear that I do not blame the Palestinian people for the sins of Nasser or Arafat. I don't think anybody does. I describe what these men have done, in order to make it more clear how we got where we are today, and to try and explain the Israeli POV. Insofar as armed militias are still very much present in the OT, however, and in neighboring states, and insofar as Palestinian schools and universities and religious people are teaching and preaching the most ungodly lies, I have some concerns.

Fear and hatred got us where we are today, and we need, somehow, to see this, and to teach ourselves to be tolerant of one another.

***

The heritage of the Jewish people, though, is not simply irrational, but is a long tradition of written history, poetry, story and law, plus of course language(s), which isn't getting a hell of a lot of respect lately. On the other hand, we are thought to be Controlling The Government If Not The World.

Actually we are, as a people, not powerful but incredibly few in number and extremely vulnerable - from misinformation as much as anything.

I hope, in your studies, you will devote some time to the study of Judaism, since no study of Christianity makes any sense without that:) Ultimately, though, Israel was created more as a last defense than anything else - and THAT is rational. And sad. There's no doubt in my mind, had the holocaust NOT occurred, Israel would be a much smaller, less powerful and less frightened state. But then, we'd be living in a different world.

I truly hope you will study this history, it will make a lot more sense if you do.

As to the West Bank, I agree with you, that the Palestinian people should have this land. I also agree with myself that the close-in settlements, which were laid out ages ago, and which are needed if only to take in overflow population FROM the West Bank, are necessary to remain with Israel and to stiffen the weak border area.

I did NOT suggest that Israel should maintain control of the region, only that it's a shame that Jewish people are supposed to all leave. And actually, my point of course extends to Christians and other minority groups in the M.E. - that is in fact my PRECISE point - that Christians, Kurds, Assyrians, Armenians, Druze, etc.- AND JEWS - have rights in the M.E. which are being trounced. This is also true in Africa. The Islamic website I linked has a lot of information on minority groups who are suffering, in many areas.

***

I think, like you, people should be able to live TOGETHER. The best security for both states, in the long run, is to share populations. Ties of blood and friendship are the best defense. THAT is why I, particularly, am sad about the idea that all Jews have to leave.

The other arguments, however, you will hear as the process continues, and they are deeply believed by many Israelis. These are not evil people, they are people of principle, and they will be loathe to leave the West Bank.

Of course, some of them, some of the settlers, are just plain nuts and they have been aggressive and controlling them will be very hard. This is why we REALLY need Ariel Sharon. His life is in danger behind this.

***

I also think it would be best if the homes could be kept, even if people have to leave them, and given intact to the Palestinians. That's what they are going to try to do in Gaza.

Meanwhile, a lot of people, like me, are trying to figure out some ideas, creative ideas, to help the people of this region. More war is just unthinkable and we are scared to death of the armed militias. If you drop in on I/P you will see THREE separate threads concerning THREE separate incidents, of Fatah gunmen shooting up PA offices, etc.

The good news is, they are demanding JOBS. This shows me, you know what, they may after all be serious about belonging to the world. This we ought to be able to help them with. It's no different, after all, than a big inner city here, where so many are disenfranchised, poor and without hope. This is a manageable problem, we really need investment capital, and help with security.

The bad news is, Hamas and other groups are VERY "fundamentalist", for want of a better word, in their outlook. They have had honor killings there, executions of men they look upon as "collaborators", and so forth. Missiles and rockets are still being smuggled across the border from Egypt. Hizbollah continues to make threats. The other day they flew a reconaissance drone over Israel. And, Israel has its share of potentially violent people who want to upset the peace process.

So, we need a lot of luck, and prayers for both Abu Mazzen and Ariel Sharon, because these two old warhorses, right now, are the best hope for the future. And, we need a lot of re-education.

People truly do NOT know the whole story here, or even a shred of it. You see, right on this thread, the TOTAL resistance I'm getting to any new ideas - and these are all from completely unbiased sources, and thoroughly checked and re-checked. Yet, I'm being called "delusional" and "brainwashed".

So I'm worried.

And Palestinian kids and university students are STILL being taught blasphemies like "The Elders of Zion", and worse.

Ah well. Maybe we should pray:)

[Colorado Blue]

23. Here's a poem from an "irrational " Jewish person.

My Heart Is In the East

(Medieval Jewish Poetry
Yehuda Halevi (1086-1145), was the greatest Hebrew poet of his time. He hailed from Toledo, Spain, and in addition to mastering biblical Hebrew, Arabic and the intricacies of the Talmud, Yehudah explored the physical sciences, philosophy and metaphysics.


My heart is in the east, and I in the uttermost west--

How can I find savour in food? How shall it be sweet to me?

How shall I render my vows and my bonds, while yet

Zion lieth beneath the fetter of Edom, and I in Arab chains?

A light thing would it seem to me to leave all the good things of Spain --

Seeing how precious in mine eyes to behold the dust of the desolate sanctuary.)


Thats from 11th century Spain. Yehuda Halevi actually moved to Palestine where he died. The Amidah, the core part of Jewish prayer has a whole line about the "restoration of Zion". I thank a fellow DU'er, jdemsindiana, for originally posting this in I/P.


One final note: anybody living here in the US, where 99.9% of the citizens have NO ties to this land, and no right to be here whatsoever except that we took it, really shouldn't be commenting on Israel.

But, I truly, as a person and a fellow DU'er, really appreciate the opportunity to talk to people who are interested in learning about this culture, and about the history of a land that is dazzlingly complex and multilayered. And I thank you for trying to withhold simple and easy judgement, about situations that are not, easy and simple.

[Coastie for Truth]

36. I hope you enjoy paying $2.39/gallon

because your protectors and saviors are ripping you off Mr. American Motorist - as surely as they are subsidizing the killing of Israelis and Palestinians and the ripping off of the ME Arab proletariat.

I have been in the "Industry" for thirty of the last forty years.


"Coastie"
PhD - Chemical Engineering
Professional Engineer (Chemical Engineering) - Pennsylvania
Chartered Professional Engineer (Chemical Engineering) - Saskatchewan

[Colorado Blue]

17. And furthermore: I have pulled up an article from Cole's

this blog. I had heard from other sources, that he is somewhat inaccurate regarding certain matters, and that is in fact what I found, in this one piece.

He is, on the question of the status of Jewish people in the Middle East, on their second-class status within Islam, and on the influence of the "Elders of Zion", off the mark.

In the article I read, he says Jews were a "protected minority" under Islam. That is true, to a point. Jewish people are considered "people of the book", and allowed to practice their religion. The Koran does, in some passages, seem to reflect the right of the Jewish people to the lands roughly known as Israel, and considered theirs by heritage.

It is also true, that Jews were relegated to jobs considered "unclean" for Moslems and widely villified for not choosing to convert. They lived in separate areas in the towns and wore different clothes. Jewish people were referred to as "dogs".

During WWII, the Nazi malaise spread to North Africa, and a sort of mini-holocaust occurred there. If you need links about this, let me know. Worse, the Nazi dialectic entered Middle Eastern politics.

As political and fundamentalist Islamism have taken hold, anger at Jewish people for not converting, has grown. What was a sort of low-level antisemitism, has become quite virulent.

Also, Cole claims that the "Elders of Zion" wasn't important in the M.E. until the last couple of decades. Actually, this document was widely disseminated early in the 20th century and served, as much as anything, to poison the water between the Jewish settlers and the Arabs.

The settlers, don't forget, were INVITED into the region, by the Arab king. It was thought they had something to offer. And indeed, populations grew in regions were the settlers lived and worked, and income levels rose substantially. Opposition to them was far from monolithic. This was a feudal society and landowners were happy to take Jewish money, in exchange for land. There was friendship, too, between people.

Had it not been for some extremely rascist individuals and texts that are still being taught today, this story would have had a different outcome.

I think, if you are getting your information about Israel and Jews in the Middle East strictly from Juan Cole, you are not getting the whole picture, or even an historically accurate picture.

Documentation on the above is widely disseminated and is very old news.

Thank you.

[catastrophicsuccess]

19. Dont try to blame the Holocaust on the Palestinians

That is total BS. And dont punish them for it either.

[Colorado Blue]

25. M'dear. Who is trying to blame the Holocaust on the

Palestinians? I fear that you are completely misinterpreting everything that I have said.

The Holocaust was a German invention. However, it spilled over into the Middle East. The philosophy of the Nazis spilled over into the Middle East.

Al Husseini was a real person, and he was followed by real people, who were not exactly doves of peace. An informed person, particularly a person who says they are a progressive, liberal person, will learn about people like him and about the terrible effects they have had upon history, and the threat they continue to pose. The documentation on Husseini is extensive and written in many languages. The articles I posted are not telling lies.

Nor do they blame the Palestinian people for the hate-mongering of this man. They, like the Israeli people, are his VICTIMS.

Aren't people all up in arms about the new Pope? The fear of the Nazis is with us still. They did have an effect on the situation in the Middle East, that resonates to this day. ALL of the people there have been victims of it. Aren't there articles about Nazis here in the states, posted just today?

We can't fight these people if we can't SEE THEM, or if we refuse to believe they exist.

We can't begin a new day until we understand the history of the old.

[reality based]

28. Will Cole take TNR apart like he did Jonah Goldberg?

Goldberg kept coming back for more and Cole obliged. Check out Cole's archives (around February 8 was the last posting, I think). It is sad to see the depths to which TNR has sunk. There were years when I eagerly awaited its arrival in my mailbox. No more.

[cajones_II]

30. Fix the link

bewteen the "&" and the ";" you have an extra space. :hi:

[theliberalavenger]

33. If Juan Cole isn't a Middle East expert, then what is he?

And who do they think is more of an expert? George Bush? Donald Rumsfeld? Dick Cheney? Bolton? Condoleeza "Nostrovia" Rice?

And yes - pulling the "criticising Israel is anti-Semitism" card out of their ass is a sign of scorched earth desperation.

[Coastie for Truth]

34. British-French-US Petroleum Politics is the Major Factor

"Ah, yes, the old "critic of Israel is anti-Semitic" ploy. I see Juan Cole is getting too popular and the American-Israeli junta has to squash him or distort his blog before the majority of Americans demand to know why we're paying for Israel to keep building illegal settlements.'

Ah yes, the old "defender of Israel, critic of Big Oil Petroleum-Politics is an anti-Arab" ploy. I see that the defenders of the Palestinians have to squash anybody who does not fall into line behind the likes of Texaco Chevron David O'Reilly, PhD (Chemical Engineering), or Exxon Mobil CEO Lee Raymond, PhD (Chemical Engineering), or Sir Phillip Wall, OBE and Former Shell Oil CEO or Oxy CEO Ray Irani PhD (Chemical Engineering) or Saudi Prince Bandar Ibn Sultan or Kingdom Holdings CEO Saudi Prince Tallal ibn Sultan. They have to crush anybody who asks where the $50+ per bbl goes - and how it funds terrorists.

Read about Petroleum Politics. Read about how the British and French cynically dismembered the Ottoman Empire and deliberately set up weak mini-states in the Eastern Mediterranean littoral - weak mini-states that were configured to war with each other and thereby assure British hegemony in the Eastern Mediterranean littoral.

Don't take my word, read for yourself----

1. Engdahl, "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order"
2. Unger, "House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties"
3. Keay, "Sowing the Wind: The Seeds of Conflict in the Middle East"
4. Simmons, "Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy"
5. Evans, "An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact"
6. Deffeyes, "Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak"
7. Deffeyes, "Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage"
8. Ehrenfeld, "Funding Evil: How Terrorism Is Financed--and How to Stop It"
9. Goodstein, "Out of Gas: The End of the Age Of Oil"
10. Yergin, "The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power"

You might also want to Google
1. Sir Mark Sykes
2. Sykes-Picot Agreement

You might also want to look into Shell Oil Company's pay-offs to Philippine Terrorist groups (said to be affiliated with ME terrorists) at the US securities Web Site
http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=shell&CIK=&filenum=&State=&SIC=&owner=include&action=getcompany

My point - the present unhealthy situation between Israel and Palestine was inevitable - not because of "Zionist influence" or "Zionist Perfidy" -- but a deliberate "Petroleum Politics" policy of the Big Powers to keep a level of conflict boiling in the Eastern Littoral of the Mediterranean. Why? To assure Western Hegemony, and to "Protect" access to the Suez Canal and to South Asian colonies and to ME and Indonesian assets.

No, I am not a PhD in Middle Eastern History - but I do have a PhD in chemical engineering -- and I do work in the "Energy Industry" - not petroleum, but alternative, renewable, and green (I don't make as much as O'Reilly or Lawrence or Irani) --- and I do study "Petroleum Politics."