Chance of picking up votes from worried Catholics lasted about two minutes

[Inland]

as the self righteous condemnation comes out. Namecalling, fingerpointing, and pronouncemnets of anathema.

It's Easter weekend all over again.

It's more "us vs. them" than any rational discussion and it plays right into the hands of the theocons. They don't mind that one bit.

[sniffa]

1. and cryptic posts of compLaints and fLies

wiLL never be understood of the virtuous and brown.

[MadHound]

2. Oh please friend, give it a break

This is a chatboard for liberals, and isn't well known. Censoring ourselves on the off chance that somebody might read our posts and use it against liberals as a whole defeats the whole purpose of this board.

Relax, and realize that this will blow over harmlessly, like everything else has done, within a day or two. Then we'll be back to discussing feral cats.

[Inland]

4. And the purpose of the board is what again, exactly?

Besides hoping for anything that is said to blow over?

If its a chatboard for liberals, then try to say something that HELPS LIBERALS.

[MadHound]

6. Discuss, debate, talk, commiserate, berate, flirtate, etc. etc.

It's a big board, with lots of different things going on. Right now, people are all up in arms about the new pope, a very conservative one at that. People are blowing off steam, it's theaputic. However the purpose of this board isn't all political all the time.

Besides, who says that blowing off steam doesn't help people, liberals included?

Trying to be the pope police is counterproductive and going to lead to extreme frustration for you. You would be best served to just let things blow over, as you well know they will.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Exactly

If the mods thought there was something to worry about I'm sure they'd lock a thread.

[Inland]

11. So here's my steam.

I'm sick of circle jerks. I'm sick of people making shit up because they don't much care for the other guy. And I'm sick of losing elections over religious bullshit arguments that havn't saved a life or picked up a day's garbarge.

Yeah, the pope is a conservative guy. Yeah, the pope is going to be MORE conservative than JPII. Yeah, that's bad news.

But suddenly it becomes the repository for everything how has something shitty to say about religion in general, Catholics in particular, whether it's true or not. The most imflammatory, irrational and hateful stuff gets posted.

Does it blow over? You got me. I have no idea how many people who find faith incompatible with being liberal leave and are never heard from again, after being told in so many words that faith and liberalism are incompatible.

The theocons see it as a culture war, and so do many on DU; both imply that only the dupes or the evil take the other side. In a country where most people believe in God, I don't like that.

[MadHound]

16. But you know what friend, it is blowing both ways

Many many people of no faith, or no mainstream American faith(essentially Judeo Christian) find that in the arena of politics, their religion, or lack thereof, is used against them as a club to beat them about the head and shoulders with. This is one thing that the RW fundies have become particularly adept at, but it also happens in Democratic circles also. So you tell me, how many liberals see all of this religious posturing, and leave, for good?

Increasingly we are also seeing religion creeping into the political arena, becoming part of not only our culture, but also our law(did you realize that in seven states, atheists can't hold public office?).

Having been baptized in both Catholic and Protestant rituals(:crazy:), and grown up around both, I see the hypocrisy, hatred and stupidity that all religions breed. And while religion has done some good, I think that it is outweighed by the evil it has wrought.

I think that yes, a lot of this venting that you are seeing now will blow over. If it causes some Democrat somewhere to leave and join the 'Pugs, oh well, it is an event that probably would have happened anyway, due to that person's thin skinnedness and shallowness. If you notice, practicing pagans and atheists haven't left when they are slammed within the party, perhaps there is a lesson of tolerance there for our religious brethern.

If you wish to be insulted by this, I can't stop you. However I do think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill, and ascribing too much influence to an anonymous liberal chat room. Perhaps you should take a break for awhile, and come back when things are more to your liking. Remember, one of the key rules for DU is that one has to have a thick skin.

[Inland]

17. I'm not insulted by anything except the appetite for self destruction

of a party and political stance that has been losing, with exceptions, since 1980. And, of course, the made up stuff--which if I knew was to be ignored because it is "venting", I would probably be happier.

Nor is a thick skin a prerequisite for DU, except for the religious. I got a scolding for making a crack about Kennedy being killed in Dallas. I got a word for making a joke in a John Bolton thread. No, getting a flamethrowing is pretty much expected for the religious.

And it does blow over--for a week or two, until something happens in the religious world. Like Easter. Or the pope dying and having a really long funeral. Then suddenly DU becomes the place where the anti-religious come and witness, making intolerant pronouncements, blanket statements, and, frankly, exhibiting a world of ignorance.

Part of it is simply a bore: I don't ask about anyone's religious beliefs, including you, and don't bother to tell anybody mine. But a bigger part is realizing that the liberals are on the thin edge of the wedge issue of religion, and people who indulge in an us vs them false dichotomy hurt nobody but 1) people who would like to be allies but wonder if they share the same planet due to the hostility and 2)the speakers who wonder why they lose another round of elections.

[MadHound]

18. LOL friend, you should try being a Green around here

Especially around primaries. You want to get your ass BBQed, well, just mention that you're a Green, and you'l be fried way beyond crispy critter status. You gotta have a thick skin friend.

I think you are simply trying to stifle all criticism of this new Pope by playing the publicity card. Well, I doubt that it will work. There are too many people here who have religion used as a weapon against them each and every day by our very own government and the ruling elite. So yes, they are naturally going to vent. It is simply a consequence of living in a country where religion is becoming an ever more polarizing issue. This is a deliberate thing, the ruling elite have been increasingl using religion as a wedge for thirty five years now, ever since it became clear that the race wedge wasn't so effective anymore. Divide and conquer friend, that is the game plan.

Look, I'm sorry if you're feeling offended, but I doubt that it is going to stop because of your personal feelings. I also doubt that in the larger scheme of things that whatever happens here in DU is going to have much consequence in the real world, especially in an off election year. Perhaps you should take a break for awhile, or use the ignore function once the board gets back to normal. Other than that, there isn't much that can be done, no matter how much one protests. The tyranny of the majority sometimes sucks, both here on DU and out in the real world. Perhaps it is just the shock of having the roles reversed that is so unnerving to you, and perhaps that is something you should meditate on.

[Inland]

20. Its a democratic board. Green is a different party.

You might as well ask for tolerance of Republicans or the Socialist Youth League.

But religious aren't a different party, and if we took a vote, I bet that nobody would make this a zone to be free of people of belief. Yet, implicitly, that's where we are, since it's pretty much the way threads work---intolerance of belief is right up there with intolerance of conservatives as acceptable.

And please stop trying to tell me that I am trying to stifle all criticism of the new Pope. I am sick of this red herring that I am trying to impose a different set of rules for believers. I'll say again, one poster offererd to give Christians the same respect as the astrologers. I said the religious would jump at that.

In fact, if you look at my OP, you will see that I saw the new pope as a chance for additional catholic votes. Why, because the new pope is perfect? Because nobody can say anything bad about him? No, because he is scary. Now explain to me why I should tolerate a post calling him a "proven pedophile"? Or a post declaring that because he thinks RC to be the true religion, he is a racist?

It is, in fact, polarizing inflammatory bullshit. And guess what? WE (meaning the liberals and democratic people) ARE ON THE MINORITY SIDE AND THEREFORE HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN WITH THE POLARITY. It IS divide and conquer. Why help them by making the polarization a permanent part of the landscape by buying into it?

Unless, of course, you see a huge benefit in gratutiously insulting fellow liberal democrats who believe in religion. And then following with a thread on how those stupid Kansans don't vote Democrat and wondering what their problem is.

[MadHound]

29. Please, go reread the DU rules

It specifically states that this board is open to Democrats and progressives of all stripes, so your claim that it isn't suprising that Greens are flamed around here is a bit of a strawman.

And the fact that you're saying that liberal and progressives in this country is patently false friend, and the polls and stats will back that up. You're simply falling for the propaganda.

Look, you may not say you're trying to stifle criticism, but your actions and your posts are telling the true story. You have a right to state what you wish, and to try and stifle what you wish, but don't think that people won't call you on it.

I simply find your playing the victim ploy rather overplayed, especially considering how religious intolerance is being used everyday, worldwide to bash, maim and kill people who aren't of like faith. What is happening here on this board isn't reachig near that level, it is simply criticism of the man's past and present beliefs, and many people find his involvement with the Nazis incredibly telling. Yet you are choosing to play the victim card, and that too is quite telling. If this is your sincere belief, well I suppose you can simply chalk it up to a learning experience, you know, getting a taste of what those of no faith or different faiths have to deal with on a daily basis. And learning friend can be a good thing.

[Inland]

33. Greens are a different party.

And you will note that they aren't flamed--until they ask for people to vote for a non-democrat. Frankly, I am suprised you find the two comparable--a liberal democratic board trashing non-democrats vs. a liberal democrat board trashing liberal democrats.

And yes, religious intolerance IS used every day. That's why intolerance is a BAD thing. You seem to take the position that this is a place for OUR FORM of religious intolerance. A place where I can learn how to bear religious intolerance. I don't know which is worse, your rude and presumptuous assumption that I fit in with mainstream religion and enjoy the fruits of intolerance "out there" or the belief that the new intolerance in politics out there somehow justifies intolerance "in here". Mind if I just stand up for the liberal democratic value of tolerance in a liberal democratic forum? Golly, thanks!

I have given up on getting you to stop personalizing it--the "victim card"-- since one of the nice things about DU is that anybody who asks for the anti-religion stuff to be toned down is automatically a fundie. That is, I can talk about winning elections until I am blue in the face and everyone assumes I am trying to convert the world. That I can't take criticsim of a conservative pope, even as the OP implicitly notes that we could pick up votes from concerned catholics. Why, because the pope is perfect? No, because he is a scary conservative. See how fair that is? See how I didn't have to call him a Nazi pedophile, degrade all religious belief, denounce catholicism as anti-semetic, bring up the Borgias, and burn all bridges to all catholics jsut for the fuck of it?

But bigotry is a wonderful thing. So you assume that I am religious and want to stop all criticism, when not only did I say nothing of the sort, but pretty much implied the opposite. Hoo, boy.

If you can even FIND a statement from me on a personal belief, I'll give you what I offered Dookus--a cookie. I don't care. All I want is for a liberal democratic forum TO STOP DRIVING AWAY LIBERAL DEMOCRATS.

[beam me up scottie]

3. I've always criticized the church

why should I stop now?

[Inland]

5. You probably shouldn't.

But then again, you might refrain from implying, for example, that church contributions are going to the Nazi Party, as has already been done.

Criticism vs having a good time slamming.

[beam me up scottie]

9. I never did that.

Which was my point.
If you see bashing, hit alert, but don't expect me to treat spiritual leaders as if they are "special", because they're not.

[lastliberalintexas]

34. Can you point us to that post?

I'd like to read it and then alert on it. Since I've not seen anything of the sort, it would be much appreciated if you'd post a link. :)

[Inland]

42. That one gone, but you can go to No. 9

here. Tell me how fair you think this is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x350530

[lastliberalintexas]

43. OMG- Ratzinger helped Dean helped Walmart kill locals?

Or maybe it was just local businesses? Methinks that's not the right link.

[Inland]

44. Couldn't have been more wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3505302

[lastliberalintexas]

46. Well, that just calls *him* a Nazi

That post doesn't say anything about the Church being an arm of the National Socialists or even anything about the Church's political persuasions. It really says nothing critical of the Church, other than it having him as a leader. I still see a big difference in that post and what you and so many other complained about. Sorry. :shrug:

[Inland]

47. Hard to see how that makes it fair.

It's not the post I originally mentioned, which directly asked catholics about their contributions, but in itself it's 1) an outright lie and 2) such a calumny.

Maybe you think people make the sort of thing up as a hate the leader, love the church concept, but I suspect that reasonable people don't see a spew like that as narrowly focused.

The mods locked a thread that had an accusation of a list of republicans as child molesters, after I posted some doubts about the lack of footnotes. But that was republicans. *sigh*

[lastliberalintexas]

48. I'm not saying that I would have written it

It was an over the top attack on the man personally in MY opinion. I am just saying that it did not attack the Church, only Ratzinger personally. And yes, there is a distinction. When I attack Bush I am not attacking the United States, after all.

[Dookus]

8. Sorry

on a liberal discussion board, you're going to hear some comments when an uber-arch-conservative replaces a an arch-conservative as head of one of the most powerful institutions in the world.

Perhaps there's a right-wing Catholic board you could visit where you won't find any disagreement.

[Inland]

12. And so will you. Namely, that a lot of the comments are bullshit.

And bullshit is bullshit.

It is just okay on DU when its thrown at religion.

[Dookus]

13. No

people say critical things of all sorts of things here. It's only the religious people who feel they deserve special protection.

[Inland]

14. No

There's a difference between critical and just plain inflammatory bullshit. Only when it's religion is the latter acceptable on DU.

One poster offered that the religious get the same respect as the people who practice astrology. I bet the religious would take that in a heartbeat as a huge improvement.

[Dookus]

19. Nope

astrology was roundly derided here as utter bullshit until they were given a protected forum wherein the skeptics aren't allowed to post.

There is a similar group for Catholics, where you'll be free from all disagreement. But this is GD.

[Inland]

21. Missing the point again, so you are wrong again.

The point being that nobody feels compelled to lecture anyone on how stupid beliefs are, unless its an anti-religion person giving a lecture on how vile religion is, and that is tolerated.

Nobody bothers to call out astrologers.

Give it the same rest and you'll be fine.

[Dookus]

22. And you are simply wrong

many people made a point of demonstrating how silly astrology is. Then they were prohibited from doing so in the group set up especially for astrology.

Similarly, there is a Catholic group you can post in, and anybody who challenges the church is banned.

You said you would like your beliefs to be treated with the same respect as astrology. I am saying that astrology was given very little respect here. It is only because we are prohibited from challenging them now that it might appear to you that it is accepted.

[Inland]

23. No.

You could challenge astrology now. You could say, astrology sucks, or wiccans are nutbags, and crystals are stupid. It isn't forbidden here in GD.

But you won't. Because the only intolerance that gets mileage at DU is intolerance of mainstream religious. Nobody cares what stupid metaphysical beliefs people have at home in any other case, as long as their politics are right.

But there is a different standard for religious, particularly Christians. It's just a sad bigotry, but because its OUR bigotry, it's okay. That's hypocritical and self destructive, and if you don't mind, I'll continue to say so, right here in DU. But I am sure there is a group where nobody disagrees with you, somewhere, you could go to and not be bothered with differing opinions.

[Dookus]

24. What do you mean I won't?

Start an astrology thread and I'll be all over it.

The fact is, people don't start astrology threads in GD. But you're free to root around the Meeting Room archives to see how I and others criticized astrology fairly regularly.

Again, you are simply wrong.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

28. Let me see....

First, inland, calling me a prick is against the rules and probably un-christian.

I don't feel compelled to go to another board to discuss atheism because I don't get personally offended when people disagree with me. You, however, seem upset that people on a democratic discussion board criticize an arch-conservative Pope. Since you have the difficulty with open discussion, I have pointed you to a protected group right here on DU where you can be free of all disagreement, which you interpret as a personal insult.

I personally don't give a rat's balls about somebody else's beliefs. The problem, though, is that the Catholic Church is an immensely powerful POLITICAL institution, and I will continue to oppose its regressive agenda.

[Inland]

30. Yes, let's see....

First, I didn't call you a prick. I said I wasn't asking you to be one, which gratutiously calling out astrologers and christians would be.

Second, I don't give a fuck if it IS unchristian, because unlike many, I really don't bring my personal beliefs to a liberal democratic POLTIICAL board. If you find a post where I even remotely claim christianity, I'll give you a cookie.

Third, I don't get upset when people criticize a conservative pope--where it impacts politics. I certainly don't take gratutious attacks on religion as a personal insult, except to the extent I find idiocy, bad politics, and an appetite for self destruction insulting.

Fourth, I think that your claim that you don't give a rat's balls to be pretty disingenous. Note how quickly you pretend my OP calling for an outreach to catholic voters distressed with a conservative pope to be a defense of the pope. Note how quickly you assume that you are quarreling with a believer. Bigotry is fun, isn't it? A guy who wants to tone it down to reach out to believers is a conservative, pope loving, double standard Jesus freak? Say, thanks for taking down MY issues for another election cycle because YOU are the one with a hard on over mainstream religion.

Apparently you think that, despite this bieng a liberal democratic board, this should be a place where atheists and liberals have it out. Maybe you should find a place where nobody cares about how liberals and democrats are harmed by discussions of religious beliefs. Me, I'll be for liberal democrats of all stripes. Care to join the team or not?

[Dookus]

32. No thanks

I don't want to be on your team. I don't like hypersensitive, hysterical claims of "bashing" every time somebody disagrees with your church.

[Inland]

35. Oh, I know you don't want to be on the team.

That's why you feel free to disregard my arguments and pretend that it is hypersensive, and even that its "my church".

Your type enjoys the baiting and the bashing more than being a liberal democrat. I'll continue to point that out, and wonder why you are posting a liberal democratic board..

[Dookus]

36. Why am I posting here?

because I'm a liberal democrat.

That's the same reason I criticize an arch-conservative institution like the Catholic Church. Fairly obvious, I thought.

[Inland]

38. I don't think so.

Or at least, you have bigger fish to fry for whatever personal reasons you have.

We all have priorities. Yours are just inconsistent with the purpose of the board, and in my opinion, the common good, to use a not too grandiose term.

Bye now. Have fun with whatever it is you decide to accomplish.

[Dookus]

40. Just out of curiosity

can you find one instance of me making a blanket attack against Catholics?

[Inland]

41. Sure, I'll research that and get back to you

in a year or two.

[Dookus]

50. Yes

It will take you that long to find an example - because there isn't one.

Your hypersensitivity has blinded you to the fact that I haven't done what you think I have.

[Lindacooks]

39. Sorry, the bigotry of religions was first.

The reaction against organized religion is the reaction of people against an oppressive, anti-science, discriminatory institution. If religions didn't claim to know it all, to be the ONLY purveyors of the truth, and to be so self-righteous and sanctimonious about it, they wouldn't be a valid targer. But they do, so they are.

[redqueen]

15. You are so right.

It's probably a side-effect of the way society's going right now... what with those activist justices attacking our 'Christian heritage' and everything.

[seabeyond]

10. why should any catholic be ok with this/.

why would any catholic defend this. i called a couple churches. one asked, are you picking on all the catholic churches. picking on, is that what you feel. seeing how it is catholic passing law for me, telling me who i am suppose to be, i am not seeing i am picking on a catholic. do tell how the victim of catholics become the bad guy

[R. A. Fuqua]

25. I have found that most Catholics

will not leave their church over a few disagreements of disappointments---and most Democrats will not leave their party over a few disagreements or disappointments.

We should feel free to discuss and debate--occasionally people WILL feel offended--but I don't think that most people who have strong liberal beliefs will not leave the party because of a few disagreements or arguments.

[Inland]

27. For discuss and debate, sure. Flaming, no.

Don't expect people to give up religion if someone makes it seem that their religion and liberalism are incompatible.

[Modem Butterfly]

31. If they'll vote for fundies who think they're anti-christs...

...they'll vote for anyone. Clearly anti-Catholicism is no barrier to gaining the Catholic vote.

[Inland]

37. It's a paradox

perhaps explainable by the fact the fundies don't throw it in their face, or maybe because the catholics and protestants understand how one religion can say another is going to hell.

But moreover, the protestants relgious political wing have succeeded in creating a big tent of all believers, even though we know that "Judeo Christian values" is what Christianity becomes when there is a Jew in the room. Fact is, the political fundies are doing what politicians do--playing down differences and playing up commonalites on an issue by issue basis. Liberals have things in common with catholics, too. Can't we do the same?

Are the catholic bishops being played? Absolutely! But I suspect you have bishops and presiding over a church losing money, priests and faithful, and some protestant Bushite asks him to make a statment about Kerry, and he thinks, "finally, somebody is pretending to care what I think", and let's himself be manipulated. It's sad.

[RITPTV]

45. Please lead us out of the darkness

</sarcasm>

I'm a Catholic. I don't "vote my religion." That's a good thing.

And no one "gets" my vote. I make it.

[d_b]

49. Fuck that Nazi fuck

Oh,...:hi: