The end of the Catholic Church in America?

[Pab Sungenis]

The election of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a former Nazi soldier, as Pope Benedict XVI raises great questions. It was well known, prior to the beginning of the Conclave, that the 11 American Cardinals were hoping to block Ratzinger's election, and their failure to do so might very well mark the beginning of a final schism between Rome and the American Catholic Church.

The new Pope, who is (if such a concept can be considered) even MORE conservative, is shrouded in controversy. Americans have been leaving the Faith in droves since the beginning of John Paul II's reign in 1978, and the election of Benedict XVI will most likely accelerate, not check, the pace of this defection.

The new Pope is even more violently opposed to birth control, homosexuality, the roles of women in the Church, and many other "hot button" issues than was his predecessor, and was also notorious for criticizing John Paul for reaching out to the other major religions of the world. Expect a retrenchment of the Church into its own little world, and away from the world stage.

Fortunately for those of us of the Faith, since Benedict XVI is 78 years old, we can expect a short reign. Maybe the Church will have a leader who will come to his senses before another Great Schism is inevitable.

[Bunny]

1. I'd actually be happy to see a Schism.

I think we'd do fine here in the States with our own brand of Catholicism - one that more accurately reflects our cultural values. It could even bring me back to the Church.

[zipplewrath]

6. Except it wouldn't be Catholicism

It's a nice idea, but the very definition of Catholicism is grounded in the concept of the Vicar of Christ. "One holy, catholic, and apostolic church". Yes, it's a small "c" on catholic, but the basic concept remains. The only way for the faithful to affect the church would be to join it in ministry. Not sure most of us are ready and willing to do that.

[XemaSab]

25. I think we should form a

"Church of America" and make Bush the head of it.

[Bunny]

26. Uhh...no thanks.

I'll pass on that!

[zipplewrath]

2. Schism, how quaint

There is no need for a Great Schism. The church has been falling apart for centuries. Basically since Martin Luther nailed the
theses on the door. No formal schism is required, since the church is basically irrelevant to those who don't need it. What ever you believe you can find a church to support/allow it. Why reform when you can build anew.

[Kellanved]

3. The "Nazi Soldier" line is stupid

The implications of being a former Hitler youth member may well be valid, but many others share that biographic detail - and have/had no problem holding high offices.

And "Nazi Soldier" is just incorrect.


Hold his policies against him - there is more than enough to criticize without resorting to low punches.

As far as I am concerned, he is Bavarian and not German.

[iconoclastNYC]

5. As far as I am concerned, he is Bavarian and not German?

Could you explain this please? I don't follow.

[Kellanved]

12. simple: the German Catholic Church is generally very progressive

Ratzinger and his Bavarian church were the major brake block.

Bavaria is -somewhat- like Texas. It is more than just a little more conservative than the rest of the country.

[Coastie for Truth]

18. Considering that their last King was "Ludwig The Insane"

and the Official Dog of Bavaria is the Dachshund (but the Bavarians do make good cars and motorcycles).

[kcwayne]

13. He served in the German Army when he was 14

manning an AA battery. He says he never fired a shot because he had a medical condition.

Some points of fact:

There is no such thing as the Nazi Army. You were either in the regular army, or the SS corps.

Membership in the Nazi party was not a requirement of conscription.

His only choice to serving in the army would have been to join the resistance, which he did not. I don't think you can hold a 14 year old to task for this decision not to evade the draft or resist his conscription.

Having said all that, has there ever been another Pope that served in the army, let alone one as evil as the German army?

[zipplewrath]

15. John Paul II

IIRC JPII was in the polish army

[Kellanved]

17. he was in neither

The Flak groups were nothing else than deployed school classes. Neither SS, nor Wehrmacht.

They drafted school classes, put them in uniform and deployed them with their teachers - these groups were the "Flakhelfer". There *was* no way around it; what do you expect from a 14-year old child in a group brainwashed youths?

[kcwayne]

19. So is this report wrong?

Pope's Army history

[Kellanved]

20. a NYpost article based on a sun article: what did you expect?

Not worth the bandwith it took me to open the document.

[Pab Sungenis]

22. Not the Sun.

Actually, it was based on an article from the Times of London, which is not a sensationalist paper like the Sun.

[Kellanved]

27. no, the times article reads quite differently

But what does one expect from a Murdoch rag?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

On Edit: and the NYpost does use the Sun article, they just are not admitting it.

On 2nd edit: even the time article is not a good example of journalism; that it was possible in 1937 does not mean that it was possible 1941/1943. In 1937 there were still such things as civil rights.

[LiberallyInclined]

23. his reported "excuse" kinda bothers me-

"The cardinal claims he never fired a shot and that resistance would have meant death...

so- we at least we know that we don't have to worry about him being a martyr for his faith.

not exactly the stuff popes are supposed to be made of, IMHO

[kenny blankenship]

4. Schism?

I thought they were celibate!

Anyway, I don't see why the American Cardinals would get too bent (no pun intended) out of shape about losing. Pope Adolph is 78 years old and they'll be getting (oops, also not a pun) another chance again to elect a non-Nazi Pope real soon now.
I mean, how many Nazis can still be alive?

[Wabbajack]

7. I recently saw a program

on the discovery channel or something that purported a fairly major war criminal is still alive and hiding in South America.

[leftchick]

10. lol! Pope Adolf ! !

but as Kellanved pointed out he was part of the Nazi Youth not a Nazi Soldier. The real crime here is his conservative agenda. Anyone know if he is Opis Dei as well? I am really leaving the church if he is.

[Pab Sungenis]

16. Photo of Pope Adolf I

[kenny blankenship]

21. I don't really hold it against him

Not personally. However the Church is an institution--practically the archetypal institution of all institutions. You'd think they would be able to come up with SOMEBODY who didn't have Hitler Youth on his curriculum vitae--particularly if he's also known as a rightwinger.

[zipplewrath]

14. Ya gotta kinda look at the name

Benedict (XIII?) was the one that resigned something like 3 times.
could easily be an tacit understanding that he is expecting to be a short term pope.

[JerseygirlCT]

8. I can't help thinking, though, that like the 4 more years of Bush

it will be possible for this man to do a great deal of damage in a short period of time.

[ooglymoogly]

9. wouldn't that be wonderfull

henry eight figured it out a long long time ago....washington cathedral could be its vatican...got my vote

[merbex]

11. I am glad I left the Church 14 years ago

John XXIII was an aberration and when he opened a window the hardliners went to work to make sure that would never happen again

At least, in my lifetime

[deadparrot]

24. A split wouldn't shock me at all.

In fact, I expect it.

[CatholicEdHead]

28. Not for the traditionalists

but for the more liberal members who follow libertarian theology.

There were delusions of grandur today in that they think if they can turn the clock back to the 1950's or before society will automatically follow. That will of course not happen.

Catholic Democrats (Kerry, Kennedy, Kucinich, etc...) will come under more increasing fire in the near future.

It will be a few year change as the few progressive bishops that are left retire and are replaced with more hardliners.

Vatican II died today.