An Open Question for DU

[The Whiskey Priest]

What values must the Democratic Party accept that will engage and encourage the working-class to turn from Republicanism and once more vote for Democrats?

[BattyDem]

1. I think the Dems already have the values ...

They just need a better PR machine to let people know about them! They're too damn quiet and timid!!! :mad:

[The Whiskey Priest]

3. And...what values would those be?

IMHO...It is not so much lack of PR as having no committment to any values that benefit the working class.

[Pithlet]

9. Really?

You don't think access to health care, minimum wage, social security, union rights, are values that benefit the working class? I mean, those were just off the cuff values that I came up with in two seconds off the top of my head.

[Dookus]

13. Don't you understand, Pithlet?

Because some dems cave in on Republican initiatives, it means the whole party is bankrupt, and there's no difference between the two parties.

It's this silly thinking that drives me nuts here.

[Pithlet]

17. Ah ha

Yep, I caught that after I posted. I should have known.

[The Whiskey Priest]

16. Which Democratic initiative

has championed any of those you mentioned? Please tell me that act of any Democratic representative that has furthered the cause of the union.

[Pithlet]

34. Okay. I will.

1)Democrats led by representative Miller are publicizing and opposing Bush's plans to spend Department of Labor money on spurious audits of union funds.

2)It was Democrats that fought to keep union's rules in place in the Dept of Homeland Security.

3)It was a Democratic Congress person that publicized the Dept. of Labor's refusal to punish Wal Mart adequately for its child labor violations.

Just for starters. And that doesn't even include things like Kerry's insurance proposals, which would have saved companies tons of money and enabling them to hire more employees, or the fact that the last time we had a tight labor market was due to the economic policies of a Democratic president. Are the Democrats perfect? No, of course not.
They're still too enamored of the Washington Consensus. But there is no doubt that the Democratic party is the only party that considers labor issues its major concern. Pretending that lack of perfection equals lack of concern is intellectual bullshit.

Edited for clarity

[The Whiskey Priest]

39. Again..

The acts please..and you may go back 40 years.

[Pithlet]

47. Are you kidding me?

The National Labor Relations Board ring a bell? If you have actually got the gall to ask that question, what are you doing talking about labor issues to begin with?

If that's not good enough for you, I don't have to go back 40 years. I can go back to November of 2004, with the Employee Right to Choose Act.

I have a question for you. What are you so angry about and what would you have the Democrats do differently besides some of their stances on free trade? And before you weigh free trade around as your trump card, I would remind you that the last time a free trade provision came up for a vote in Congress, a majority of Democrats in the house and a majority of Dems in the Senate voted AGAINST it.

I don't care if this sounds harsh. But as far as I can tell, you have done nothing but evade points people have made, and simply repeat your assertions without evidence or reflection. It's not terribly useful.

[The Whiskey Priest]

52. Hmmm... Labor Relations Board

It would seem, from the reading, that the LRB has impeded organizing over the last 30 years.....am I wrong?

[Pithlet]

56. Do you know anything about labor issues?

That's not a facetious question. That is a serious question. Do you know anything about labor issues? You ignored the Card Check Act (don't you dare come back and say I didn't mention Card Check Act, because it is prominently mentioned, and if you don't recognize it, you should take the hint). I'm not going to bother to explain something to you that you should already know, i.e. how the NLRB works. I will merely point out that it is hard for a board made up of presidential appointees to be 100% for labor considering how many Republican presidents we've had in the last 20 years. But, if you want to argue that labor didn't want the NLRB, or that the legislation that created it wasn't designed to help unions, then go ahead. I'll laugh at you, but go ahead.

[The Whiskey Priest]

59. Yes...I am aware of that term....

I am also aware of the parts of the acts that work against the locals. That were written into the act at the behest of the nationals and that have been used to thwart organizing at the local level. Just my reading mind you and certainly nothing at the depth of your knowledge.

[Pithlet]

62. So

a dispute between two different factions of labor is evidence to you that the Democrats don't care about labor? That's an interesting position you have there. Or are national unions somehow not "labor" now? If you think that, I have four letters for you: SEIU.

[Carolab]

45. FDR.

For one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal#The_legacies_of_the_New_Deal

[The Whiskey Priest]

48. Oh, I am sorry

FDR is dead....long ago.

[Carolab]

50. But you SAID

"The acts please..and you may go back 40 years." So I went back a little farther, so sue me.

How about this instead? It's an interesting discussion. I like the last post:


Having its origins in the assertion of bourgeois right against conservative forces, liberalism of all its different varieties is generally an ideology of the urban bourgeoisie. Very broadly, liberalism asserts individual autonomy against the intrusion of the community into that. The main source of ambiguity in liberalism is the divergence between “economic liberalism” and “civic liberalism”.

“Economic liberalism”, sometimes called Neo-liberalism or “big-L Liberalism” advocates a laissez faire economic regime, i.e., the right of property-owners to exercise the power of money unhindered by regulations, redistributive taxes and so on. Economic liberalism therefore easily makes common cause with the traditional sources of conservative politics — the landed aristocracy and Christian fundamentalists. Neo-liberalism (“Economic rationalism” in Australia) favours reliance on market forces to resolve social problems, rather than methods of state regulation.

“Civic liberalism” on the other hand, emphasizes the importance of individual autonomy against determination by traditional norms, racial prejudice, entrenched power relations and economic disadvantage. Under the banner of “equality of opportunity”, civic liberalism can come close to forms of communitarianism in emphasizing the responsibility of the community to secure the basic conditions of life of members of the community, or, under the banner of “freedom of the individual” on the other hand, to libertarianism, in emphasizing the rights of individuals to make “life-style” choices free from interference by the community, provided they do no harm to others.

In the U.S., “liberal” has the specific connotation of seeking to promote the social good without challenging the right of the ruling class to rule. Thus, the American ‘liberal’ who wants higher wages and a better health service is quite distinct from the labour activist who aims for much the same things but whose conception is that this entails a fight against the ruling elite.


http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/i.htm#liberalism

http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20278.html

[BattyDem]

51. Read the platform

The values of the Democratic party are values that we all share. The problem is not with the values, the problem is that they are too damn spineless to stand up for those values because they are terrified of being attacked by the Repugs! The Dems are constantly put on the defensive and/or playing catch-up because they always let the Repugs frame and control the debate.

Granted, it's very difficult to fight when the entire media is on the side of your opponent, but people like Ted Kennedy, Robert Byrd, Barbara Boxer, John Conyers, Sheila Jackson-Lee, and many others find the courage to do so anyway.

I'm pissed at the Dems who voted for the Bankruptcy bill. However, their votes wouldn't have made a bit of difference, so it's possible that they are just playing politics. Who the hell knows? The real test will come when and if the Dems regain control. What issues will they fight for? How will they vote? If they still vote against our best interests, then we need to kick their asses out of office! If they currently have a record of consistently voting against our best interests, then we need to kick them out right now!

All I know is that this country reflected my values much more when Clinton was in the White House. Do I agree with everything he did? No. Do I agree with everything the Dems do? No. But I'll tell you this ... I will take Democratic values over Republican values any day of the week.

The Dems need to get their message out and embrace their roots. Howard Dean is trying to do that and the fact that he raised enormous amounts of money for his own campaign, as well as for the party after becoming chairman, proves that he's on the right track. But he needs to stop himself from falling into the trap that almost every other Dem does: stop "apologizing" for what we believe in and stop compromising those beliefs to "make nice" with the enemy. They don't want to make nice ... they want to destroy us and everything we stand for! Stay on message and stay true to the platform values because when those values are held up along side of Repug values, it's obvious which party is for the working class.

[The Whiskey Priest]

57. Then why doesn't the working-class

Believe that the Democrats are standing for them?

[Pithlet]

66. Liberals have nothing like Fox News, or talk radio

They denigrate unions and Democrats on a constant basis. Even in the "regular media" there is almost no discussion of labor issues. There is only one newspaper that even has a labor desk anymore. I think that is a major reason why we don't get the support we do, from the working class or anyone else. We just don't have the means to spread the message that they do.

[pacalo]

67. What have the Republicans done for the working class?

(Can't wait for this answer...:popcorn:)

[The Whiskey Priest]

72. Since I am a working-stiff

and need to head to bed....I started not to answer this....however, it needs answering...

The Republican party has done nothing...however,I never expected them to do anything but harm.

The Democrats on the other hand I did expect more from them...

[BattyDem]

71. The media

There's a reason the Bushies use propaganda ... it works! When the GOP message is being repeated 24/7 by "journalists" that people trust, it's very easy to convince the public that the Dems are working against them. It doesn't matter if a message is a complete lie. As Lenin said, "A lie told often enough becomes truth."

The GOP propaganda machine has the public convinced that they are the party of the average, working class citizen and the Dems are the party of "radicals" who want to destroy America - it's total bullshit, but it doesn't matter because it has been repeated so often that people believe it! The GOP has conned people into voting against their own self-interests.

The problem isn't with Democratic values, it's with the public's perception of Democratic values. It's going to be tough to change that because of the media, but the Internet is having an impact. We must continue to use it to get the message out.

[ailsagirl]

5. I agree that we do have the values-- but the MSM is a big

part of the propaganda machine against us. That's been a huge liability. Plus, yes, many Dems are timid. But the rethugs are like a steamroller-- they'd make Lenny Bruce look like a shrinking violet, so belligerent are they.

Besides, IMO, we DID win the election-- both in 2000 and 2004. There's that little problem with the Diebold machines. So I think we did have the support.

There's no way a country would vote for Clinton-- for two terms-- then turn around and vote for the current scum for two terms. It simply wouldn't make sense.

[AuntiBush]

23. Yup! Get RID of DIEBOLD, ETC!

Change the Voting system... simple ATM like machines that spit out printout - proof of who one votes for.

It's not VOTER FRAUD - it's ELECTION FRAUD! We did win - and, we were robbed!

[Pithlet]

69. Good points

And, I think the fact that despite all that we're still pretty close to parity should say something.

[BattyDem]

74. That's a good point

The Dems don't need to change - the voting machines do.

The Dems need to stop "chasing" votes by "reaching out" to people who don't necessarily share our values. Instead, they need to start "chasing" proof of election fraud and "reaching out" to voters in order to convince them to DEMAND paper ballots!

On edit: The Dems really need to start making paper ballots and possible election fraud a MAJOR issue! They have to get people to think about it and to talk about it, because the fact is, no reasonable person would be against their efforts to make sure our elections are legitimate. Anyone who loves this country would welcome those efforts.

The Dems need to put the Repugs on the defensive and force them into a position where they can either support paper ballots or fight against them. If they choose to fight, the issue becomes, "Why doesn't the GOP want America to have the most accurate and secure elections it possibly can?" Ask that question often enough and it becomes a HUGE red flag that most people won't be able to ignore.

[ailsagirl]

84. I think that the election fraud issue is NUMBER ONE

Because it doesn't matter how many people vote against *-- as long as those machines are in place, we'll lose every time.

We know that Gore won in 2000 and I absolutely believe that Kerry got the votes in 2004. Nothing can ever convince me that the majority of Americans wanted that piece of crap in office. Never. Ever.

[AuntiBush]

18. Agreed!

Get on track with Gore's Media in Sept - and fast! Buy up as much air waves (radio/satellite/cable - you name it) as possible, especially in Bible-Belt & Mid-West areas (Southern States)...

West/East Coasters have it together from Mason-Dixon line on up; worry about the southern outages whom never even heard the name KERRY; checkout truthout.org's media section 14 day road trip to get a feel for how many only heard BU#H's name.

[Dookus]

2. The premise is wrong

I don't think the party needs to change its values. It needs to make sure people understand how much of the Republican talk of values is pure bullshit.

[Somawas]

4. For example

all the great things they did for working people in the name of Bankruptcy Reform.

[Dookus]

8. You think that was a Democratic initiative?

[Trillo]

10. War against the poor. nt

[The Whiskey Priest]

6. and ....the Democrats are not?

When they vote for raiding the pension funds...when they vote for the bankruptcy act, or, when they limit class action suits.

[Dookus]

11. Those weren't Democratic initiatives

and would never have gotten out of committee if the Democrats were in the majority.

[The Whiskey Priest]

20. 80 Democratics voted for the act

That would seem to be bi-partisan support.

[Dookus]

24. nonetheless

they never would've gotten out of committee if the Dems were in the majority.

You can pretend all you want that the Democratic party stands for those things, but you're just creating a fake fight.

[The Whiskey Priest]

27. I intend to create a fight

a fight for those who are getting the short-end of the stick, from both the DLC, Neo-libs and the Republican party.

[Dookus]

31. Fight the republicans

they're the opposition.

It's nonsense to claim that the Democrats are exactly the same as Republicans on economic issues.

[The Whiskey Priest]

33. IMHO The DLC and the Neo-libs

are worse...for they betray the cause.

[Dookus]

35. How very soviet of you...

[The Whiskey Priest]

38. Reducing the discussion to

Red-baiting is a Neo-lib tactic.

[Dookus]

42. oh no

I'm a neo-lib!

I'll report to the re-education center ASAP.

I was mocking your use of silly soviet-era language, not your position. That, I have mocked separately.

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. I think we need to stick with that which we promised to defend in the

first place. Women are not second class citizens and their bodily choices should be treated in accordance with that. A couple should have the right to marry and enjoy mutual benefits regardless of gender and orientation. This war was WRONG...etc. We need to stop picking and choosing which one of these stances to jettison off. I'm not willing to turn my back on women, homosexuals, or the rights of other countries not to have us treading all over them. :hi:

[The Whiskey Priest]

12. Just how do those help the working class

who are trying to keep their heads above the economic tide?

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. Is that all we're really supposed to care about?

It can all be adhered too. I'm not willing to back off an inch. If our leaders do...they can kiss me and my support bye bye.

[Dookus]

15. Not every important issue

is an economic one.

[The Whiskey Priest]

22. For the suffering working class

It is economic. They do not have the luxary of thinking further than survival.

[Dookus]

29. oh don't give me that bullshit

You're saying people who struggle to make ends meet can't be concerned with human rights?

I've been very poor and had to struggle to survive - I was still an outspoken gay liberal concerned with human rights.

Your premise seems to be that there is no difference in the economic policies of the two parties. I can't argue with you on this because it would take years of education to bring you up to speed.

[The Whiskey Priest]

36. Please indulge me, as I would you

education is not an impediment.

[Dookus]

37. If you believe that

the bills you're railing against would've passed if the Democrats were in control, "uneducated" is the kindest explanation I can proffer.

[The Whiskey Priest]

41. Again I ask

Why did 80 Democrats vote for it, plus the pride expressed by the Minority Leader in passing the acts.

[Dookus]

44. because 80 democrats

either thought it was a good idea or a political necessity to support it.

Nonetheless, 80 Democrats is a small percentage of all of Democrats. Painting the entire party as arch-conservative based on that is silly.

[The Whiskey Priest]

46. Please Explain how the Leader of the Party in the Senate

Remains the Leader of the Party in the Senate after extolling the virtue of passing those bills? Would you not grant that I might view that as being expressive of the party?

[Dookus]

54. No

I would only grant that you seem to have little understanding of the realities of politics.

[The Whiskey Priest]

60. Well, maybe?

Those with the gold rule?

[Dookus]

63. But you keep avoiding the question....

that's central to your thesis.

Do you believe the bankrupty bill and others like it would've passed given a Democratic majority in congress?

[The Whiskey Priest]

64. Look...if 80 Democrats Voted for The Bill

Then it is like the Republicans have a 80 plus seat greater majority...So I suppose I could say, yes, if the the Democrats had a majority of plus one..then they bill would have passed by a majority of 79 votes....all of the Republicans plus 80 Democrats... of course just having a majority does not mean voting with the working-class...hmmmm, 80 Democrats is about 35 percent of the Democrats...add that to the Republicans and you would have a majority anyway.

[Dookus]

68. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

[The Whiskey Priest]

73. As one of the proletariat I am tied to answering the bell

But, please, refrain from any hesitancy in voicing your suspicions….please do express your thoughts. After all we are not communist.

[Dookus]

77. Once again

I never said you were a communist. I was merely mocking the soviet-style tone. Or was it Maoist?

So you have said you believe the bankruptcy bill WOULD have passed if the Democrats controlled the congress. That tells me you don't understand how the committee or leadership systems work, and it backs up my previous assertion that it would take a long time to become educated about those things.

[The Whiskey Priest]

83. Now--You assume I am deficient in understanding the legislative process?

And your contention is that it would not have made it out of committee, or would have been poisoned with amendments…or would have been stalled by FILIBUSTER?

Of course...all that may have happened.....yet that is speculation. What we know is 80 Democrats voted for the bill. Plus was led to vote for the bill by the Minority Leader of the Senate. I must surmise that even with the Democrats in the majority, he, the Leader would have pushed for the bill.....correct?

[jwirr]

75. As the head of a working class family with eighteen of

voting age I would suggest you do not know what you are talking about. Yes the working class is having a hard time. We do have time to think about other issues and seventeen of us vote democrat. Personally I doubt that you ever have.

[The Whiskey Priest]

76. I have never voted for a Republican

and never will...I am just tired of voting for Republican-lite....I want a party that stands for the working and middle-class rather than for the top one percent of this country. To my mind the majority of the Democrats,along with the Republicans, stand for those who have the best and want the rest.

[autorank]

19. The values of PT Barnum: "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the

taste of the American public." Politics isn't rational. Immigrant working people favored Cleveland over Bryan even though Bryan was far more favorable to working people. Why? because Bryan was against drinking, which all those great folks from Europe thought was weird. Enough working people favored Bush over Gore then Kerry because they liked his religion, even though he was/is transparently anti working class.

We need a candidate who combines the message of Huey Long with a delivery that sells...said candidate fully intending to do the right thing once elected.

Sorry, it's about a different set of values than you're talking about, IMHO.

[kentuck]

21. Break it down to the common denominators...

Just like in 5th grade math...

Who's responsible for high gas prices? For jobs leaving American and going overseas? Is America better off now than just 4 years ago? Who is responsible for the huge deficits? Why do you have to pay the credit card companies before anyone else - even child support? If you don't vote, don't bitch about it.

[barb162]

28. your main point is good but almost every one of those issues was

present in November and it didn't work.

[Bozita]

25. It ain't values ... It's language, and they've got Frank Luntz

The estate tax has morphed into the "death tax."

Luntz is the guy.

[The Whiskey Priest]

30. Luntz hates the Unions and the working-class

I am asking, is it not time for the Democratics to stand for the working-class rather than for the monied class? The Minority Leader in the Senate voted against the working class.

[barb162]

26. honesty and straight -shooting

your question is phrased in a way that almost implies: what must be forced down the throat of the Dem party to get votes back?

[The Whiskey Priest]

32. IMHO it will require someone to fight for it....

The Democratic leadership and Party gives every evidence of being bought and paid for the same as the Republicans.

[barb162]

40. yeah, well when 73 Democrats went along with the pugs on

that bankruptcy bill last week, that to me at least is a clear indication they sure as hell aren't working for their voting constituency. Now if we want to talk about their NON-voting constituency (as in corporations), I think that is who many (as in 73)of them are working for.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozita]

53. Yep, we need * if we're attacked ... and we need him if we're not attacked

The Repugs have framed the discussion, and Bush wins in either case.

Welcome to DU, GSP.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[solinvictus]

49. Fighting the Republicans would be a good start..

Call them out for what they are: corrupt liars who are profiting from the war. Then, point out that Republicans FAVOR outsourcing, they FAVOR cheap labor and low wages, they FAVOR limiting your children's opportunities to pursue an education. The Republicans want to keep the poor people poor, there's no other way to put it. They want to have two classes of people in America, workers and owners.

Issues to hammer away on are jobs, healthcare, and stagnant earnings. I agree with several here that the working poor could honestly care less about the issues that concern most educated liberals. I believe they are more concerned with earning enough to pay rent and purchase groceries.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TreasonousBastard]

61. Simple...

return to the Democratic Party of 1955 where the Dixiecrats were still fighting the Civil War and maintaining Jim Crow laws; and the northern Democrats were largely inner city machines bribing voters for votes.

Any more questions?

[barb162]

65. and IKE was running the country

[entanglement]

70. It might never happen

The Republican Party has pretty much nailed it (sadly) with its idea of banking on people's vices / deficiencies instead of their virtues to get them on their side. They know that appeals to selfishness, jingoism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and religious intolerance are more successful in eliciting support than calm, rational arguments based on the idea of respect for everyone and good for all.

[Carolab]

78. Here! Let our Chairman explain it to you!

http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/news/article/0,2071,NPDN_14940_3710665,00.html

[NAO]

79. Expose the Class Warfare by the Wealthy Class / Raise Class Consciousness

I am utterly convinced that class is THE issue, all other issues are either a result of class issues or a deliberate distraction from class issues.

The Democrats need to enlighten the public on the systematic wealth transfer from those who work (but do not own) to those who own (but do not work). This rate of this wealth transfer is exponentially increasing and has been since about 1980.

The word 'class' needs to be distinguished from 'income level'. A person who makes $50/year from interest/dividends/business profits is in the 'upper (read owning) class' while a person who makes $150K/year from actual labor - mental or manual - is in the 'lower (read working) class. It has nothing to do with how much money a person makes, or what kind of work they do. It has everything to do with whether their money comes from the work they do (and they are paid a fraction of what they actually produce) or whether their money comes from skimming the value off of the work done by others.

W's program has systematically removed taxation from wealth (dividends, interest, capital gains, inheritance) and shifted the tax burden onto income earned by labor. That is a clear example of 'class warfare' and should remove any doubt that class analysis is an outdated or obsolete notion.

Class Consciousness - The Missing Factor - Existence Denied by the Right
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1727808&mesg_id=1727808

[sweetheart]

80. End drugs prohibition

and an amnesty for all nonviolent drugs offenders.

[ngGale]

81. Just the value from living through the next...

few years of the Bush administration and pray the Repubs can't cheat, again. Bush is down to 45% approval today, Congress 38% - they are on self-destruct anyway. Tee hee hee!
There is nothing wrong with Dem values, it's all propaganda. We had the perfect ticket, IMHO - if only we didn't have to suffer along with them. Dean and Reid are doing their job well, we needed to open our mouth. We tend to be really nice and tolerant people. All the Dems need to do is stand up and fight back, point out Repub corruption.

[The Whiskey Priest]

82. Deleted by author

deleted