What liberals can learn from the new Dodge Charger

[billbuckhead]

Legendarily reliable, economical and well designed, Toyota Camry and Honda Accord seem invincible in the American midsize market and GM and Ford show the wounds of trying to compete with them by building a "me too" kind of car. Now totally out of left field, Dodge is fixing to make a huge impact by going a different way. No matter how well Toyota and Honda make their cars, they're still overly complex sideways engined front wheel drive cars in a world where rear wheel drive cars bring the greatest profits and have mechanical superiority due the laws of physics and simple design. Almost everyone thinks rear wheel drive cars drive better and age better. Cops, taxi drivers, car magazines and mechanics all hate front wheel drive cars with a passion. Most trucks and SUV's are built around rear wheel drive and many critics think that much their real appeal is due to rear wheel drive. Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche, V8 Lexuses are arguably the greatest cars sold today by the profit they generate and they are all rear wheel drive.

DCX is going back to the basics of product legend building. Take the products that people aspire to and make them attainable. Mercedes has been building state of the art rear wheel drive cars for lifetimes, so it just made sense for a hotshot Mercedes car guy brought over from Germany to help Chrysler, to take hand me down and thoroughly vetted Mercedes parts, reformat them in a way that appeals to middle America and then take them down market against those mass market generic lozenge shaped frontwheel drive boredom mobiles, the Camcords. A lot of people aren't gonna like these cars, but 20% are gonna be over the top fanatical about these cars because of smart use of rear wheel drive both in marketing and engineering.

Here's the media spin.<http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102209>

The Anti-Camry: Dodge to market Charger sedan to buyers who want performance, edgy design
MARY CONNELLY | Automotive News
Posted Date: 4/18/05
DETROIT -- Forget chasing Honda Accord and Toyota Camry buyers, Dodge says. They won't "get" the 2006 Dodge Charger.

Instead, Dodge will market its new sedan to Dodge owners, domestic buyers and import buyers looking for performance and edgy design, says Judy Wheeler, director of Dodge marketing.

Advertising primarily will stress performance. Styling and value are the other key messages, she says. Advertising begins in May.

------------snip--------------

Dodge has found a "clear space" in the market, Hall says. Charger's performance/design/pricing formula is similar to that of the successful Chrysler 300 sedan, he says.
-------------snip--------------

""CLEAR SPACE" IN THE MARKET"!!!!!!!
Why must we always be engaging the enemy on their terms? On their turf?
When was the last time that the Dems had a new improved product for the middle class mass market? A "clear space" in the market? Why aren't we making social security even better instead of denying that there's a problem. It's just a different problem. We should say there sure is a problem, the benefits are too weak and the stock market is too crooked to be trusted for a pension.

Why aren't liberals offering to make some good things affordable? The freedom of national universal healthcare. Free solar power anyone?

[wuushew]

1. Rear wheel drive-standard transmission cars will soon be extinct anyway

the superior torque curves of electric motors combined with more fuel efficient and fewer cyclinder hybrid engines will spell the end of all traditional designs.

[billbuckhead]

62. 10 yrs from now certainly but today the Chrysler 300 outsells Prius 2 to 1

13,475 300's vs 7078 Priuses in March 2005

http://hybridcars.about.com/b/a/2005_03_03.htm

[punpirate]

2. How many people can afford...

... Chrysler 300 sedans? Pricing similar, but emphasizing performance--in an age of rising gasoline prices? As I recall, Chrysler did exactly the same thing in the mid-`70s and it resulted in their bankruptcy.

Know where the real clear space in the market is? Hybrids.

[billbuckhead]

5. Charger starts at $22,995 with 3.5L V6

Handme down Mercedes technology and parts will insulate Chrysler from RD costs as well as give them diesels if gas prices keep rising.
I think truck buyers will switch to rear wheel drive cars before they switch to front wheel drive cars, that's going to be the first big change in buying habits. The switch from trucks/truck based SUV"s to cars is going to happen first.

[punpirate]

8. Uh, huh...

... watch Chrysler die again in three to five years, or Daimler will dump them.

Two years from now, the new shelf for oil prices will be $75-80/bbl. The oil companies have already established two new gas pricing paradigms in four years.

Front-wheel drive cars have survived and flourished in the market because the drive train is more compact, allows more interior space and provides some small weight savings, which has some effect on mileage.

Look, I don't have a thing about front-wheel drive--the cars I have are rear-wheel drive--but, emphasizing performance cars and resisting changing markets was precisely what killed Chrysler the last time. GM is currently wallowing in an SUV mentality (because SUVs are more profitable than other models), and it's showing in their market performance and their sales.

The results of design changes now will be felt for five years, minimum, in the future. If they're wrong, their mistakes will persist well into the foreseeable future.

And be sure to let me know how many out-the-door $22,995 Chargers you find on the highways.... :)

[Pithlet]

29. Yep

The American car makers are repeating all the same old mistakes. They just refuse to learn from them.

[TX-RAT]

13. Chrysler did exactly the same thing in the mid-`70s

I believe they did just the opposite, remember the K-Car, cheap, unreliable,underpowered and front wheel drive. Went down like a sack of rocks.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Huh? Those Cars Saved The Company!

They sold MILLIONS of those cars. That and the Horizon/Omni, saved the company!

You may not have thought much of them, and i don't blame you. But, they did NOT go down like a sack of rocks!

The Professor

[TX-RAT]

20. Think maybe the federal bailout had something to do with it?

All i know is nobody around here was buying them, thats also the same time our local dealership went under.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. They Paid That Back YEARS Ahead of Schedule

Sorry, RAT, your facts are wrong on this one. The bailout was a loan that they paid back in only 4 and a half years, instead of the 15 they were granted. The income to pay back the loan, WITH INTEREST, came from the Horizon/Omni, the K-cars, and the new truck line they launched, all between 1978 and 1981.

The K-car saved that company, and the bailout was just a hedge to allow them to launch their new lines without financially failing.

Like i said, they sold MILLIONS of the K-cars. It was for a couple of years, the most popular car in the U.S., at least until the Taurus passed it up.
The Professor

[TX-RAT]

31. Couldn't find info, where they paid it back, but i did find this.

1979 Chrysler lost a half billion.

1979 Lee Iacocca demanded a one billion dollar bailout from the federal government and the state of Michigan.

1980 the federal government and the state of Michigan approved the bailout. Days later, the state of Michigan cut welfare grants, insisting that the state budget was hit by the Chrysler bailout.

1980-1990 Chrysler closed more than 30 plants in the US, laid off about 45% of both it's blue collar and white collar workforce, or about 65000 people.

Not much of a success story here.

[ProfessorGAC]

35. I See. So, Laying Off The Entire 200k Workforce,. . .

. . .letting the stock tank, have people lose billions in pensions, and decimate dozens more cities where they had facilities would have been equally bad!

You have an unusual set of criteria for success. The 140,000 people who DIDN'T lose their jobs, and the 250,000 that didn't have their pensions turn to mush might disagree whether or not they succeeded at turning the company around.

The company STILL EXISTS! They were months from liquidation! MONTHS! They still exist and did so independently for more than 15 years after the nadir.

That's not a success story? Like i said, ask those 250,000 pensioneers.

The Professor

[TX-RAT]

42. 2003 in Alabama

The Daimler-Mercedes partnership begins to import workers from Poland, paying them 1/2 the wages common to locals, arguing that the Polish workers do jobs that require special skills unavailable in the US. the jobs are routine factory positions, involving painting and cutting.

(Like i said, ask those 250,000 pensioneers.)
I'd love to.

[ProfessorGAC]

43. Your Compassion Is Underwhelming

You do know that the pensioneers are just working stiffs like everyone else, right? Letting the company tank and taking their retirement dreams with them seems to be ok with you.

Your compassion for your fellow man is showing. Better be careful or something will think you're a liberal.
The Professor

[chicagiana]

56. What would be bad about liquidation ...

Those assets would have ended up in other hands. Often in the more competent hands of Japanese management (integrity) of Toyota and Honda. Lousy car lines would be halted and the winners would be put forward. The brand having value would have survived.

Companies get bought and sold every day. Today, Chrysler is NO LONGER an American company having been bought out by Mercedes-Benz.

The people who benifitted from the bailout were the INVESTORS and management, not the employees.

---------------

OH BTW. Guys who write for car magazines are motor heads who can't get over not being able to do doughnuts in front wheel drive vehicles.

Front wheel drive puts the wheels under the motor where the most traction is. Thats the way it SHOULD be.

If you want to put the engine in the back along with the drive wheel, thats fine. But than you have to put up with the risk of high speed spinouts. Take your choice.

The average American family doesn't NEED a muscle car.

[LiberallyInclined]

33. i was behind a Horizon this weekend...

and it occurred to me how long it's been since i had seen one.

[ProfessorGAC]

41. I Had One In 1980

I had the TC-3, which Dodge called the O24. A little sportier but was really the same engine, trans, and frame. Those were just prior to Chrysler going to unibody, i think. K-cars were unibody, i think.
The Professor

[lectrobyte]

63. My girlfriend at the time had one. Had a VW Rabbit drivetrain

in a Chrysler shell, from what I recall. Nice little car for the time.

[napi21]

67. I had an 024 in 1979, hubby had a Hroizon at the same time.

Terrific cars! I finally gave it to my son who turned 16 in 1985 and bought a Shelby Charger and drove it for 13 years! And YES the K Car was a unibody design and Chrysler was the first Am. mfg. to design it's entire fleet of passenger cars with fron wheel drive.

To the guy who still insists the Gov't loan guarantees were a bailout... please read this:

Lee Iacocca stepped up to the challenge facing him by reducing cost, restructuring its management, and bringing in new executives to deal with the financial problems. But external forces continued to limit Chrysler’s ability to finance its programs fully. Chrysler was forced to seek help from the federal government in the form of loan guarantees. While many people are under the impression that the government actually lent Chrysler the money, the fact is that they did not. What the government did do was guarantee Chryslers loan repayment should the company fail. The government would actually end up 350 million dollars richer for their help.

http://www.moparstyle.net/history/chrysler.htm

[punpirate]

49. Your recollection is hazy....

Chrysler went broke after doing what I described. Lee Iacocca took over in about 1980 and went to the government for a bailout. The first thing he did was begin the K-car line, which essentially saved the company. By shifting to smaller, FWD cars, Chrysler was able to not only gain solvency, it was able to pay off a billion-dollar government loan in less than three years.

Now, you may have had an unreliable K-car, but they made Chrysler money, which they weren't doing building dinosaurs. The K-cars did one thing that Chrysler's previous products did not do--get reasonably good gas mileage--and that turned them around.

Cheers.

[billbuckhead]

66. GM and Ford are floundering and Chrysler is up 12 months in a row

hrysler Group Reports Twelfth Consecutive Month of Positive Sales Gains

Quarterly Sales Rise 7 Percent; Sixth Consecutive Quarter of Positive Sales Gains

- Jeep(R) Grand Cherokee Sales Continue Positive Momentum, Increase 6 Percent - Dodge Durango Sales Rise 12 Percent - Chrysler 300 Sets New Monthly Sales Record - Minivan Sales Surge 28 Percent - Chrysler Brand March 2005 Sales Increase 16 Percent, New Monthly and Quarter Sales Records Established - March Sales Mark 12 Consecutive Months of Year-Over-Year Sales Gains

AUBURN HILLS, Mich., April 1 -- Chrysler Group reported U.S. sales for March 2005 of 212,978 units, an increase of 4 percent (8 percent increase unadjusted) over March 2004 sales of 197,856. All sales are reported on a day-rate adjusted basis unless otherwise indicated. March sales results mark 12 consecutive months of year-over-year monthly sales gains for the Chrysler Group, and 17 of the past 18 months the company has achieved positive monthly results.

First quarter sales for the Chrysler Group totaled 546,732 units, an increase of 7 percent (6 percent increase unadjusted) compared to first quarter 2004 sales of 517,504. First quarter 2005 results represent six consecutive quarters of sales gains for the Chrysler Group.

"Sales increases in cars, minivans and SUVs during March led us to achieve our sixth consecutive quarter of positive sales gains," said Gary Dilts, Chrysler Group Senior Vice President - Sales. "The power of our products like the award-winning Chrysler 300, minivans with exclusive Stow 'n Go seating and the brash Dodge Magnum helped spark consumer interest and improve sales."

-----------snip-------------------------------

<http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/01/027177.html>

[Redstone]

3. If it has four doors and and automatic transmission,

it's not a Charger, dammit!

Any more than the current sorry excuse for an "Impala" that Chevrolet is perpetrating is really an Impala.

Everyone knows that an Impala must have six taillights, not four.

Redstone

[billbuckhead]

6. Don't worry, this car is so strong,people will customize them on their own

Rear wheel drive, a HEMI and a lot of Mercedes technology is very formidable. Custom shops will be working around the clock building 2 doors and convertibles. At urban car shows they already have a Chrysler 300 class.

[TX-RAT]

16. Your giving away your age.

I've still got my 67 R/T 440.

[mtnester]

30. Kind of like the new Pontiac GTO is not really a goat...

yah know?

Excuse me while I reminisce about early 70's/late 60's muscle cars...

[chicagiana]

57. Impala ...

The Impala is a large Sedan that gets AWESOME gas mileage. Whats wrong with the Impala????

[MASSAFRA]

4. I love it

Gas prices are high and the American auto maker makes a car based on 1960's technology and thinks its innovative. I have Toyota Prius and look forward to buying a Toyota Highlander hybrid in the future. Meanwhile Chrysler will be saying look at our Hemi engine.

[TX-RAT]

14. American auto maker makes a car based on 1960's technology?

Completely different cars.

[bunkerbuster1]

64. And it's got that stupid Ram grille

I know, personal taste and all that, but I can't get past the stupid front end of kurrent Kreissler produkts.

[JVS]

7. These cars are roughly comparable with cars like the Nissan Altima 3.5

as far as price and fuel efficiency go. They should do ok.

[elehhhhna]

9. Dodge is a warning, not a brand-name.

[Enraged_Ape]

10. This is what they call "edgy design"?

That's not a Dodge Charger.

This is a Dodge Charger.

[A Simple Game]

12. Why oh why ,

do they have to put a truck grill in everything they make?

It sure is shiny though.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Welcome to the Duke Family Flyyyyin' Circus...

I LOVE those old Chargers.

[flvegan]

24. So edgy, it looks like they stole the new Mustang design and added 2 doors

[Enraged_Ape]

27. This "Charger" is a Hyundai sedan with a Ram grill

Back in the sixties, they knew what "sexy" and "edgy" were. This car is neither.

[flvegan]

28. I'm waiting for them to resurrect the Superbird. That outta be a sight.

:sarcasm:

[billbuckhead]

52. Actually the Charger is based on the Mercedes E-Class

Hyundai doesn't sell rear wheel drive cars in the USA

[lectrobyte]

68. A Charger with 4 doors? That's pretty bizarre.

[tinanator]

11. ugly ugly ugly

but blowing the doors off chrome plated dollar signs is always fun.

[A Simple Game]

17. Sure is.

In the early 70s I had a 64 Pontiac Tempest that I had replaced the original six cylinder with a 455 with three deuces. The car was solid but in need of a paint job. I could either pull the front wheels (just slightly) or lay down 1/4 mile dual black marks, depending on how I let out the clutch.

Caused a lot of dropped jaws on fancy muscle car drivers.

That was a fun car. I could also get about 25 mpg if I wanted to. High performance does not have to equal poor efficiency.

[tinanator]

23. you aint kiddin

my 428 (fomoco) with a T-bolt camshaft, 4.11 gears and a 3800 stall seemed to get better mileage than a 302 with 2.80's.
What I wouldnt give for a 62 Tempest wagon with a 421, or a 62 Catalina. Just gotta feel sorry for them dodge boys.

[A Simple Game]

26. I loved the old Pontiacs.

Besides the 64 Tempest I have had a 64 Bonneville, 65 GTO, 67 GTO, 68 GTO, and probably one or two more I can't remember right now.

The 455 I put into the 64 Tempest was from the 68 GTO after I had a minor icy road accident that messed up the body.

[tinanator]

32. oh yeah the one Poncho muscle car I really would like to have

70 Judge. black, like the one a high school acquaintance had and offed after blowing the 428. What an opportunity. Why couldnt I been born rich instead of good looking?

[Gold Metal Flake]

18. Few middle class folks give a damn about rear wheel drive.

You wanna quote car mag crap like a freeeper quoting Rush, go ahead. But industry cheerleading bullshit is industry cheerleading bullshit. Buy a Dodge for freedom? Please.

Most conscious folks want reliable transportation at a good price. The market has been skewed lately by a shitload of mepublicans locked in an automotive arms race competing with their neighbors to see who can drag out the most home equity to finance the largest SUV. This is a temporary market abberation that will correct itself, in a hilarious (to me) manner over the next decade.

The "new" Charger is an ugly car. The Charger show car of the pre-Daimler design effort was an exciting car, as well as a well-executed homage to the 1968 R/T. What we have today is a marketing campaign built around leftovers. Remember "cab forward", a cute phrase dreamed up to describe less overhang? Yeah, changed the world. Sure.

Hondas and Toyotas are loved by their owners. They are well built and last. They are economical. They are Worth The Money. The world will not rush to this Dodge crap because the commercials sound like Rear Wheel Drive is some new concept.

As for maintainence, ask someone who does the work. I never cussed any worse when swapping engines or trannies from any of my Hondas than I did doing the same with any of my Fords. A machine is a machine to a good mechanic. Any suggestion that it is easier to do major engine or transmission work on late-model FWD Hondas Vs. late-model RWD Mustangs, for example, is straight bullshit.

And so now we are to take the news of this bland regurgitation, and the marketing blather that accompanies it, as some forceful political allegory. The 2006 Dodge Lieberman. All new, if you have your head up your ass.

[midnight armadillo]

25. The average car buyer

Most conscious folks want reliable transportation at a good price. The
market has been skewed lately by a shitload of mepublicans locked in an
automotive arms race competing with their neighbors to see who can drag
out the most home equity to finance the largest SUV. This is a
temporary market abberation that will correct itself, in a hilarious
(to me) manner over the next decade.


I agree completely. My mother-in-law bought a new Camry a few months ago, after 15 years of buying Accords. Why? Because the newest Accord had a wood grained dash and she had trouble seeing the edge of the hood & trunk for parking. That's IT. She never noticed any sort of driving difference between them, nor cared about it, or worried about engine or transmissions.

My wife never noticed the driving difference between our old Corolla and our Subaru wagon (FWD v. AWD!!), although she can tell the difference between the Subaru and our Saab wagon (that extra 70 ft-lbs of torque is noticeable :-) ).

The success of the bland, inoffensive Camry and Accords is proof that the typical car buyer just wants a car that runs & works without any trouble. If they want more style they get an Altima, or maybe a Passat. I'm pretty certain that 95% of a car buying decision has to do with image, style, and perceived need for features (i.e. many SUV drivers are convinced that snow driving==death without 4WD). The other remaining 5% will actually select based on driving experience.

So Dodge will be trying to chase that 5% with an ugly RWD car whose butt-ugliness will chase away the other 95% who want a car to impress the neighbors. good luck.

[Gold Metal Flake]

39. This is the Charger they killed (pix)

That's a sexy car, and one that could compete with the new Mustang and pull in the orphan Camaro lovers who just can't do Ford.

Now, it's only available as a Hot Wheels. Maybe a model. Shame. It was puuuurty.

BTW, my wife drives a 1968 Cougar and she loves it. I build my own. I buy used, and do all my own repairs. I would rather have to chase parts and own a back-up car than be a slave to a dealer.

Many folks can't do what I do, so they turn to well-built cars offering comfort and value. Performance cars have their place, but there is nothing new about them. There is certainly nothing new about this Charger.

BTW, I just recently sold my hemi, a 392. That would be a REAL hemi.

Anyway, it's the idea that this new DLC Charger POS Joementum car is somehow an example of what Liberals are lacking that really toasted my bearings.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. Wow - they turned down a sports car look

in favour of a sedan with small windows. Who's their target market - little old ladies who don't bother to look out of their windows? They better have some damn good technical reasons for going that way. Rear wheel drive won't be it, I think.

[billbuckhead]

51. The new Charger is not a "me too" product like the G6 fake Audi

or the Ford 500 fake Passat or the new Sonata fake Accord or the new Malibu fake Camry or the new Howard NRA Dean-Joe DLC Lieberman-Joe CIA Biden fake Republicans. Love it or hate it, the new Charger is has the $23,000 to $30,000 midsize rear wheel drive market all to itself.

[Gold Metal Flake]

55. The new Charger is pointless, like this thread.

This car is not new. It's just another Dodge, with some extra marketing bullshit piled on top. As for the market, I have yet to see any indication that the public is clamoring for the sort of, uh, "satisfaction" that this POS would provide.

This car has nothing to teach Democrats, as you lamely claimed above.

Nice try connecting this vanity thread with your other vanity thread at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3513277

[billbuckhead]

61. Chrysler has had 12 consecutive months of sales growth led by new 300

With Adjusted U.S. Sales for March 2005 Increasing 4 Percent, Chrysler Group Reports Twelfth Consecutive Month of Positive Sales Gains

AUBURN HILLS, Mich., April 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Chrysler Group reported U.S. sales for March 2005 of 212,978 units, an increase of 4 percent (8 percent increase unadjusted) over March 2004 sales of 197,856. All sales are reported on a day-rate adjusted basis unless otherwise indicated. March sales results mark 12 consecutive months of year-over-year monthly sales gains for the Chrysler Group, and 17 of the past 18 months the company has achieved positive monthly results.

First quarter sales for the Chrysler Group totaled 546,732 units, an increase of 7 percent (6 percent increase unadjusted) compared to first quarter 2004 sales of 517,504. First quarter 2005 results represent six consecutive quarters of sales gains for the Chrysler Group.

-----------snip----------------

Chrysler brand sales increased 16 percent to a record 60,382 units. Sales for March 2004 were 50,119 units. Quarterly sales for the brand increased 28 percent to 155,762 units, compared to sales of 123,460 units during the first quarter of 2004. Chrysler 300 sales reached their highest monthly total ever by posting sales of 13,475 units. Quarterly sales of the flagship vehicle of the Chrysler brand totaled a record 36,252 units.

Jeep(R) brand sales continued their monthly sales acceleration by posting sales of 40,491 units in March, an increase of 1 percent over February 2005 sales. Sales of the all-new Jeep Grand Cherokee improved 6 percent to 18,828 units compared to March 2004 sales of 17,105 units. Jeep Liberty sales declined 3 percent on an adjusted basis, but unadjusted sales increased to 14,915 units for March 2005. Year ago sales totaled 14,818 units. Jeep Wrangler sales continued their monthly improvement pace by posting sales of 6,748 units, an increase of 15 percent over February 2005 sales.

-----------snip-------------------------

<http://www.internetautoguide.com/auto-news/25-int/11363/>

[Gold Metal Flake]

65.

So?

[gauguin57]

22. Screw the Charger ... bring back my old Dodge Dart!

Best car I ever owned! I cry when I look at pictures of that 1974 beauty!

[kcwayne]

34. People that think rear wheel cars driver better don't drive on snow or ice

I have to make death defying car acrobatics to get my rear wheel drive car up my driveway when there is snow and ice on the street. The next car I get will be front wheel drive, period.

[billbuckhead]

48. New rear wheel drive cars have traction control

and the new Chrysler 300 and Magnum offer All Wheel Drive for the snowbelt.

[kcwayne]

50. I have a BMW with traction control

it sucks in the snow. Not as bad as a car without traction control, but it still sucks compared to the front wheel drive cars I have owned.

[chicagiana]

58. Traction control != Traction ...

Traction control just means that the computer throttles back when you don't have enough traction. It cannot MANUFACTURE traction, just help work with the piss poor traction when most of the cars mass is 2M in front of the drive wheels.

TRACTION ... means that you put the load over the drive wheels so you can actually move the car. And guess what, FWD cars have traction control too.


Besides, doesn't it really defeat the point of RWD to have traction control. I mean, how can you spin out and do other stupid RWD muscle car bullshit if the computer automatically throttles down????

[LiberallyInclined]

36. I Learned how to drive in the old Dodge Charger(SE)...

a 1971 SE with a 440/4bbl.

that car was FAST.

[youspeakmylanguage]

37. When will the American auto conglomerates figure out...

...that the future of the car business is highly-efficient hybrid vehicles? I want a hybrid design (part car, part station wagon) like the Toyota Matrix with the Prius' engine.

We don't need another muscle car on the road that gulps gas and spews more noxious fumes. Until the Big three or four or whatever figure that out, I hope Toyota and Honda mop the showroom floor with their bankrupt asses.

In case anyone is wondering, I drive a PT Cruiser. HORRIBLE gas mileage. Once it is paid off, I am shopping for a hybrid.

[chicagiana]

59. Government help ...

I think that ultra-low emmission vehicles should be exempt from auto taxes. That would bring the price down quite a bit and make them more attractive.

One the volume gets up, the technology prices will come down and the government can commence taxing them.

[newportdadde]

38. Rear wheel drive... lol

My first new car and the car I currently drive is 99 rear wheel drive mustang. Some of my worst driving experience in my life have occurred in this car in the snow... the most harrowing getting stuck after traffic stopped going up hill only to slowly so slowly slide backwards and off to the side only coming to rest 2 feet from a 30 foot drop.

Thank god I can just dial in to work on bad weather now and leave the stang parked.

[Ron Green]

40. As long as the industry is holding on to the myth of the car as more than

transportation (fashion statement, macho toy, security module, class warfare weapon, whatever) then the government, in their servile obedience to the industry, will not enact the policies necessary to get Americans away from the cowboy mentality about cars.

Many of us who hotrodded as kids can reminisce about our Tri-Power 389's or Push-Button Hemi Plymouths, but to anyone who cares about the transportation system of this nation it's all nostalgia and trivia. The fact is that hybrid technology and biodiesel technology are and must be the future, and anyone who buys into muscle-car nostalgia and thinks it's a happening thing is just a fool.

[frictionlessO]

44. Is there a site or list online for all hybrid vehicles? n/t

[Tactical Progressive]

45. Try here

www.hybridcars.com

[frictionlessO]

47. Gods, I am soooooooo slow today... thanks! n/t

[gorgan]

53. RWD not always a good idea

"where rear wheel drive cars ...have mechanical superiority due the laws of physics and simple design."

Tell those 'laws of physics' to your rear-wheel drive car when you're trying to climb an icy hill with it. FWD is far superior in such cases.

[chicagiana]

60. FWD and efficiency ...

I think that FWD cars loose a little efficiency getting power into wheels that turn. But the traction and control you get kinda makes up for it.

BTW, listening to someone talk about "efficiency" and "muscle car" in the ssame breath seems a little ridiculous. Those lusting for an updated charger have no interest in getting 25 MPG. They're just interested in getting a couple extra Horsepower from not having so many transfer cases between the engine and the drive wheel.

For stability and control AWD is the way to go. I kinda like the RX400 model that is coming out soon. It's AWD and they completely ditch the drive shaft for the rear wheels. The front is powered by the mechanical motor, the rear is powered strictly by an electric motor.

[lectrobyte]

69. AWD with electric motors driving one end of the car. I'm kind of

surprised someone hasn't made a truck like this. Keep the RWD, and add motor/generators to the front wheels (front does most of the stopping, better for recovering power during braking). I'd like a really fuel efficient hybrid small truck, like the next logical step from the Chevy LUV my uncle used to have. I think it was 1500 cc's and got around 30 mpg, and was actually fun to drive. Doesn't seem to be anything on the market like that now.

[wuushew]

70. why not electric drive on all the wheels?

no weight from a bulky transmission, axles or CV equipment. Plus unlike a traditional engine the torque does not need to be corrected to match the output of the engine. More current = more power, which is delivered instantly at the speed of electricity and does not have to loose power or wait for spinning mass inertia in a transmission system.

In addition you can get by with a much smaller or fewer cylindered engine vehicle since typical activities like highway driving require relatively little effort. Most vehicles only need power when rapidly increasing the work they perform, which means that a battery which can release quickly the stored energy from a small or more efficiently cylindered engine can accomplish superbly.

The ability to place the motor and battery equipment in different parts of the vehicle improves both space utilization and weight distribution. Hybrids are win win technology be it for true work vehicles, commuter cars or sports cars.

[chicagiana]

71. Good idea ...

Though, one of the big benefits with the electric in the back is that you eliminate the weight of the drive-shaft.

But I could see how a serious cargo vehicle would be ideal for electric up front. Especially since most trucks are RARELY loaded and the electric is more efficient for 0-15 mph. When the truck was loaded, a sensor in the suspension could probably tell the thing to go ahead and use the engine from the get go. And of course the AWD button would turn everything on at once.

[enki23]

54. they must be counting on global warming kicking in awfully fast

or maybe it's just for the southern markets.

i used to *love* rear wheel drive in northern iowa farm country. lemme tell you... especially rear wheel drive pickups.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. wheeeeeeeee. sometimes, i swear i could get my old ford stuck on a six foot patch of ice. not even snow. just ice, if it was nice and slick from traffic. deep snow was pretty much a deal breaker. my pitiful little rust colored chevy citation could push through more snow than any of the rear wheel drive vehicles, trucks and otherwise, that we had.