Anyone seen the History Channel's Kennedy docs?

[FreedomAngel82]

I've seen a few of their's and this afternoon I was setting my vcr to tape the FDR thing and they had Peter Jennings' special he had last year around Kennedy's anniversary of his death. Basically they were trying REALLY hard to descredit Oliver Stone's movie (one of my favorite's) and
show that Oswald was a lone gun man and that nobody was out to get Kennedy. I wanted to just scream at my tv "bullshit" and pound my head against the wall. :banghead: :rant: I just was wondering what others thought about all the history channel docs. Only other one I've seen is of the Kennedy women.

[whistle]

1. Yes, total BS, it is a propaganda piece put out by the Bush family

...supporters to deflect the attention from the fact that Poppy Bush was in Dallas on the day Kennedy was shot and was very much involved in the cover-up.

[DearAbby]

2. It amazes me how incredibly stupid they think we are...

to feed us the "lone nut gunman" bull crap story.

Something has always smelled about that. Why Poppy Bush can't seem to recall the exact moment when he heard President Kennedy was shot?

[Richard Steele]

4. Maybe he can't recall "hearing the story"...

Because he never "HEARD" the story? Because he was THERE?

[Melynn]

7. Wow, that looks just like Poppy

I've never seen that photo before. That's a eye opener.

[FreedomAngel82]

9. It is Poppy

It's so Poppy. Just look at other pictures of him from that time and you can see his hair is always slicked back and how he stands. It's so Poppy.

[Melynn]

24. There is a definite resemblance to W. Bush

It's down right eerie.

I'll admit that I never paid attention to the connection between the Bush family and the JFK assassination. Part of the reason is that I never thought the the Bushies were smart enough to pull something like that off. I will have to rethink that notion.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Oh you can bet that they are smart enough

Poppy is for sure. He's pure evil.

[Chemical Bill]

11. Didn't J Edgar Hoover brief George Bush of the CIA...

on the day after the shooting? I remember GHWB saying it was some other George Bush. The only George Bush officially in the CIA was a black man who was so low level in the organization that he asked reporters "Why would I be briefed?" I can't remember where I saw this.

Bill

[lala_rawraw]

49. He was there as was Nixon, both of whom

Cannot remember where they were. There is so much evidence. It was the CIA operation 40 unti, special plans department... headed by poppy and outsourced to Hunt and Bolton. This is known by people the world over, yet America will not see it until someone gets on the TV and says it for them. 9/11 is harder for them because we are all so connected, but look, even given what is known, people are still pretending the lone "terrorirst" syndrome crap. Can we just admit that we know what we know and get on with it? If conspiracy theory means Watergate, then this is Watergate x 10000

[FreedomAngel82]

8. Yep

And why else was Nixon so freakin paranoid about Kennedy?

[lala_rawraw]

56. About Watergate? You mean Hunt's blackmail? n/t

[IowaGuy]

59. Hell, I was in 3rd grade and remember it like it just happened

Poppy has got got to be the only American above the age of 8 that has that story...

[MisterP]

6. I love how E. Howard Hunt sweats heavily (like George Costanza and the

Kung Pao chicken) and changes the subject whenever the Kennedy subject is brought up.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. JFK II: The Bush Connection..video available online

http://server2.reasonablehosting.com/jfkbush/

Once at the link, right click on the video to save target as.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Becareful

It's very graphic.

[lala_rawraw]

50. Read Liberty Lobby case...

That about says it all.

[Borgnine]

32. Hah, I was watching an old X-Files last week...

It was the one exploring the past of the Cigarette Smoking Man, and how he was involved in every major assasination and conspiracy beginning with JFK. The whole time, I was thinking "this character could have been based off of Poppy."

[FreedomAngel82]

34. LOL

I wouldn't doubt it. Doesn't Poppy smoke? Or used to anyways? He seems like the smoking type anyways. Know what I mean? Like in the bad movies how the bad guy usually has a cigar or cig? Oh and I love your photo. I recently became a "West Wing" fan and bought season one DVD box set. :) Now I'm saving up for season two.

[Chemical Bill]

3. They had "Men Who Killed Kennedy"

I have never seen the whole series. When I first saw one of the shows I was glad that they were actually saying anything besides the party line that a lone gunman with a rusty old rifle had gotten off three impossibly quick shot, including one magic bullet. But now I always wonder if anything like that is meant to obfuscate the issue and provide cover for the people who yell "conspiracy theory" at the drop of a hat. But I don't have a TV anymore, so I have to learn the facts instead of the MSM "faux".:dunce:

Bill

[rinsd]

47. Men who Killed Kennedy got them slapped around by LBJ estate...

One in the series had a guy stating matter of factly over and over again that LBJ had JFK whacked so he could enrich his defense dept buddies.

I believe the History Channel aired an apology after that one was on.

[Lefty_the_Right]

5. The "History Channel" has really lost any credibility with me

When they ran that POS about Kennedy/Oswald.

If you haven't seen the docs that were released a couple of years ago about Oswald being on a mission in Russia, you need to add it to your collection.

It pretty much confirms that he was a CIA asset, and backs up the theory put forth by Prouty and Stone.

I think of the move JFK is as close to the truth as we've seen yet.
And all the information that has come forth since it was released has really reinforced it for me.

[FreedomAngel82]

10. Right

I love the JFK movie and do trust it. All these other docs I'm not so sure about. I'm surprised they even told about shots coming from the grassy knoll. They had to I think to keep credability with "consperiacy theorists."

[Zynx]

12. I really don't like the "Oswald Mission to Russia" theory

It pretty much requires that both the KGB and the CIA were in on the plot VERY early, which, while being VERY interesting, is not really plausible.

Besides, between the two agencies, they could do better than Oswald.

I also don't like Prouty because of his history of saying things such as "oil is infinite and not a fossil fuel" - check his website commentaries for this particular gem. It reads almost as bad as the usual creationist tripe. He also has some stuff about UFO's...

I also don't like the Warren Report, because some of their most basic factual arguments are wrong - the shot timing is much too fast and the angle of Kennedy's head at the moment of bullet strike is simply impossible. Big factual errors on some forensic evidence tends to discredit a whole argument because it shows they were working backwards for at least part of it.

I REALLY don't like the idea of a shooter firing from the Grassy Knoll and hitting Kennedy because it is ballistic nonesense - the Zapruder film clearly puts the huge wound in the front of Kennedy's head - which is completely inconsistant with him being shot from the front. You can even map the status of the back of Kennedy's head through the whole sequence with a computer model - the back of his head is not disturbed.

This very large fact invalidates all the nonesense about his major wound being on the back left side of his head. It clearly is not.

What is likely is that SOMEONE shot Kennedy fatally from the 6th floor window of the TSBD. It's impossible to prove Oswald fired the shot - no one saw him do it - or who he may have been working for if he was an assistant or the actual shooter. Oswald was most certainly in the building at the time, though.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. Right

And now I'm confused on Jack Ruby. The history channel also had a little documentary on him and they had a family member on there too talking and basically saying how Ruby loved Kennedy and he didn't want people to think it was the Jews who killed him and that's why he went after Oswald. In the "JFK" movie I got the sense he was involved with the killing with mafia.

[Zynx]

14. Ruby was very impulsive and violent and carried a gun at all times

He may very well have done that on impulse, IMO.

[rinsd]

46. First off don't rely on the movie.....

...while a very cool movie that has opened up people's eyes to what government can do, its hardly a resource reference.

I could just as likely use Sam Giancana's brother's book about his brother life which has quite a few interesting tidbits such as Giancana safeguarding the life of Joe Kennedy when he ran afoul of other mafiaoso, helping JFK in West Virginia and rural Illinois with "wink and a nod" status being the payoff. There's also the plot of Marilyn getting whacked(via a toxic suppository) as a way to embarrass the Kennedy brothers after RFK went after the mob. And finally Giancana claiming his organization was responsible.

It was an interesting read but I wouldn't reference it in arguments.

[Chemical Bill]

16. Don't assume the CIA and KGB were enemies

Don't assume that they were working for their respective governments. I understand that there are several frames missing from the Zapruder film, right at impact. And Greene was one of my ancestors.

Bill

[Rockerdem]

18. Ive moved closer to your position over time

I began close to Oliver Stone, but simpler explanations seem more likely at the moment. Only two major factors remain that point to a conspiracy: a. Jack Ruby; b. the acoustic evidence which hasn't been satisfactorily debunked, imo. The way that the House acoustic experts worked forward, not backward, to discover the path of the police microphone indicates to me that their work is valid and not likely due to randomness. And the British forensic expert's calculation of the likelihood of multiple shooters still hasn't been addressed, to my knowledge.

Given that, I believe that Oswald was in some way connected to assassination. I firmly believe he was another US asset that was trying to be positioned into Cuba. (His contacts with the FBI and other agencies are too suspicious to be innocent.) And that the Cubans foiled him, and possibly turned the tables using him. But how it was done, no one will ever find out.

I dont believe that there was any Secret Team, Nixon plot, or Texas oilmen involved. Kennedy was too much part of the establishment in many issues, and is seems mainstream in any generation.

[Chemical Bill]

21. Kennedy wanted to print money...

instead of borrowing it from the Federal Reserve (a private bank). Think of how we redistribute wealth from the middle class taxpayer to the richest one percent by way of the interest on the national debt. Some people will kill for $20, let alone a sum like we're talking. Sure Oswald was connected, he was the designated patsy.

Bill

[lala_rawraw]

51. Problem with Stone movie

Is that he undercuts the facts for bottom line. I love the movie, but the facts are diluted or in some cases the wrong things are amplified.

[Chomp]

15. Honestly...

...I find the evidence that JFK was shot by LHO's 2nd and 3rd shots from the 6th floor TBD to be completely credible and believable.

Conversely, I honestly don't think I've ever seen one bit of really compelling evidence about alternate theories involving Ruby/Cubans//Mobsters/FBI/Whoever etc. It all leads down blind allies.

And how many people would need to be involved in such a conspiracy? Dozens at least. And none of them has ever piped up in 40+ years? Don't buy it.

Have you read how many eyewitness statments corroborate the official story? There were dozens, including the police outriders and members of the public - Deely was absolutely packed with people at the time who generally back up the official story.

How about Zaprudder? Honestly - 3 shots, 2 hits, JFK and GC wounded by same bullet etc. It's all there in plain sight, frame by frame.

And is anyone still standing by Stone's JFK? As a piece of subversive, anarchist, creative, myth-making cinema it's wonderful...as history it is complete and total pants.

Have a look at this (although I'm sure you already have seen it):

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100menu.html

A great read and very compelling.

And if GHWB was in on it, would he be standing around chatting just yards away from the shooter? Hmmmm....

[Chemical Bill]

17. I'm sorry...

but I think you've been listening to those "coincidence theories" too much. How about Kennedy's head snapping backward in the Zapruder film? A little physics is in order, bodies in motion and at rest and all that.

Bill

[Hippo_Tron]

19. Okay I don't believe outright that it was George Bush who was responsible

But I somehow doubt that Oswald was a lone gunman and that the assassination of JFK and RFK had no connection. Hell I bet Ted would've been assassinated if there was any realistic chance of him becoming president.

[Chemical Bill]

22. Yeah, RFK was shot point blank...

from behind, according to Noguchi, and Sirhan was always in front and never within 3 feet. That one is so obvious that it's stupid to think Sirhan did it. And Ted was neutralized in a different way.

Bill

[FreedomAngel82]

29. I agree with Ted

I'm suprised any are still left. I also still wonder on JFK junior.

[lala_rawraw]

54. A series of quick questions for you then...

1). Name of operation otherwise known as Pay of Pigs?
2). Name of special unit to conduct that operation?
3). Name of the boats landing in Cuba during said operation?
4). Name of CIA asset in charge of said operation?
5). Bush I offshore oil biz in Texas?
6). Bush I appointed to CIA? (officially)
7). Name of contact for Eduardo at the CIA? (and Eduardo's name?)
8). Florida and Texas are key why?
9). How many people did it take for JFK plan? (not that many actually)
10). Who is the only leader in the free world not to remember where he was on the day of JFK's hit? I was not born yet and I remember that day and where other people were.

Just a few easy questions to start that should help you understand that Iran Contra used the same agents and we see them now taking positions of power in a complete disregard for "secrecy" anymore. Example, Bolton is appointed to UN for what particular reason? Cheney? Rummy? Even Rove had a bit part in Watergate. History can be lied about, but it cannot be erased. The facts speak for themselves.

[AzDar]

23. OMFG!! I watched as much as I could stand this afternoon....Couldn't

BELIEVE what I was viewing....Absolutely NO refutation of their
dubious (and obviously foregone) conclusion that LHO acted alone. Facts stretched and twisted beyond the limits of responsible historical journalism.
I kept wondering who could be responsible for such propaganda?....

[FreedomAngel82]

35. Who else?

Who else has a hold on our media? It orginially was on ABC (that is where Jennings works right? I get them and NBC mixed up sometimes on people). But at the end it was SO obvious when he was saying this segment was to tell how Oswald acted a lone and bullcrap and it was no plan to get the president and Oswald was just a crazy man. Like I'm going to believe Jennings. He lost credit with me during the whole Lewinksy bullshit.

[lala_rawraw]

55. CIA recruits are

Often posed as journalists. This has been admitted to and rose in prominence during the Ford administration (Bush I head of CIA). I kid you not. Do some research as there are plenty of credible sources to document this crap. Funny, was just thinking of how Bolton tried to "setup" Cuba once again. Good god, can we just declare that we live in a post JFK reality that has become a boiling frog on 9/11... we should not have crossed the Rubicon then and now as you can see we are on another map altogether.

[barb162]

25. every so often that channel puts on something truly wonderful

and scholarly. They had a program on the French Revolution a few months ago and there were real live historians on it; one of them was one of my teachers. All the professors on it were French Revolution scholars from well-known schools. My prof looked just like he did when I was in one of his classes... one of the most brilliant teachers I ever had.

From everything I heard about Oswald he couldn't shoot straight enough to hit his own foot.

[AzDar]

26. Yeah. God, I love the History Channel...That's why I was horrified by

this afternoon's lil' fiasco. I think credulity on ALL levels has taken a beating since the Bush Cabal seized power.
Lee Oswald was certified a 'sharpshooter' while in the USMC; however the rifle he allegedly used was an ancient Mannlicher-Carcano single bolt-action with a faulty scope.
Some years ago,the nation's top military sharpshooters tried to duplicate LHO's feat from the sixth floor of the TSBD,(can't recall the name of the program where I saw this..) and all failed.

[barb162]

30. I watched a "Nightline" show several years ago and they were

talking to the KGB about what the Russians had on Oswald when he lived in Russia. Sometimes when he went hunting with Russians he couldn't even hit anything even a few feet away. They also interviewed some townspeople where he lived in Russia and they confirmed same, what the KGB said. Subsequent to this I have read and seen other things where Oswald just wasn't a good shot at all.

You seem to know more than a bit about guns; I know nothing. From the angle Kennedy was shot, could it have been from a lower floor of that building, the TX Schoolbook place? Where were the two shots from? ANy ideas? It is my personal belief it had to be from some other spot the shooter(s) were hiding, much closer to the vehicles, not the top floor of the building.

[FreedomAngel82]

38. I found online once

a special that James Earl Jones was hosting on Kennedy. They had a lot of people on the show talking about their personal experiences and basically at least three people said they heard shots from the grassy Knoll area from behind a fence. Looking at video's of the assisination right after you see a decent crowd running in that direction to catch the people who shot Kennedy. I think they were probably hired hitmen.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Right

I've heard that too. And they had this little score card that they CLAIMED was his and they had some dude on there talking that Oswald each time he shot had a 49/50 point average. They were trying SO hard. You could clearly sense the desperation. I wanted to just scream at them so bad. Of course with the guy Kevin Costner protrayed in JFK (it's early and his name left my mind) they protrayed as a psycho man of course with no crediability. :eyes:

[Lefty_the_Right]

31. All in all, I think Red Dwarf had it right

If you haven't seen the episode "Tikka to Ride", and you are interested in the story itself, do yourself a favor.

I really don't want to ruin it for anyone that hasn't seen it.

[BlueIris]

33. When I first saw the HCs Kennedy "documentaries" in 2003

doing shit like DEBUNKING THE ZABRUDER FILM, I was convinced we as a nation had gone 'round the bend. The Fox network did an even more frighteningly absurd send-up of what Zabruder found. On the anniversary of JFK's death. With Greta Van Sustern GRINNING LIKE AN IDIOT THE ENTIRE TIME.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. Ugh

Disgusting. When someone is grinning like that you know it's shit.

[maveric]

37. Was Posner a consultant on this one?

He seems to me the neo-cons hit-man when it comes to slamming the kennedy's.

[FreedomAngel82]

40. I'm not sure

I can't remember. If you want I can look on the tv guide and see if they're going to show it again for you.

[ReadTomPaine]

41. Also, the "Curse of the Kennedys" shown later was even worse!

It was a hit piece of the first order, virtually every line of dialog had some negative spin. I'm glad someone else picked up on this with the HC today as it was pretty bad. I posted something similar for "The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy" along with the synopsis this afternoon in another JFK thread

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1728785&mesg_id=1731359

RTP

[ngGale]

42. History channel use to be one of my faves, but...

lately I've noticed them rewriting history. Must be for the next generation, mine always knew the JFK cover story was bunk.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. Yep

In an FDR thread last night someone posted that they got two facts wrong in that. So I think they're trying to rewrite history, especially when a democrat is conserned. Whenever someone like Jennings tries to "debunk" JFK stories I know it's going to be bullshit. I trust the "JFK" Oliver Stone movie.

[R. A. Fuqua]

43. I do see a major conspiracy here

and perhaps even involvement on the part of the Bush's and the CIA is possible as well.

However, I don't understand why people take the Oliver Stone movie as being the gospel facts? I have heard Oliver Stone himself lecture about the movie--he visited my college campus (UCB) very soon after the movie came out--we saw the movie at a special screening and had a question and answer session with Stone.

He claimed that he never intended for the movie to represent actual fact--what Stone did (according to his own word) was pick and choose bits and pieces from several of the numerous conspiracy theories that he personally liked the best. Then he worked things over a bit to smooth over the rough spots and make things flow well (which is probably why it seems so realistic to so many people). He even did a whole segment on why the movie CANNOT be factual--bullet trajectory and technical stuff like that.

Those of you who believe the movie is the true account--are you quite young (perhaps you were not around when the movie came out--so maybe you missed all the analysis at the time)? I know that the director claims that the movie was meant to be entertainment that it was never meant to be an actual historical documentary (even though I can see how the style of the movie may be a fooler).

[Chomp]

44. Groupthink!!

RA is spot on...many people here seem to be basing their views on the Stone movie, which is self-avowed garbage (fact-wise).

What I cannot believe is that on DU there are people who simply LOVE to roll their eyes in disbelief at all these horrid conspiracies and work themselves up into a lather about them, and yet they haven't even bothered to educate themselves about the subject! All this righteous indignation is utterly misplaced.

It is also deeply illiberal. In fact, it's worse than that - it is dishonest and irresponsible. Blind faith. Groupthink. Dreadful.

[lala_rawraw]

58. It is not, it is based on some

Fact and some fiction and it pushes some of the right facts to the background and some of the wrong information forward. It is a great movie, but it is not the "fact book" on this. I say read the legal briefs for the Liberty Lobby case, both cases that is.

[rinsd]

45. Because Oliver Stone's movie was the truth?

I love the movie too but let's not get crazy.

[lala_rawraw]

48. JFK is solved as is 9/11... facts

Are there, we have put them together. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think we know the same family behind both events, given that Operation Zappata is much like operation now.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Yep

Alex Jones has a new documentary out that has the Bush connection. I think somebody posted a link to the movie on up in the thread. It talks about Operation Zappata I think and connects JFK, Watergate and all those events together leading back to Bush.

[lala_rawraw]

57. Small group of plumbers

From Texas recycled in scandal after scandal and no one thinks anything of it.

Anyone still in doubt, take a gander at the last 5 years and add Bush I ... tell me again how this is a conspiracy theory as opposed to a conspiracy fact? Did Watergate not happen?