Challenge To DU'ers STILL Whining About Kerry Conceding

[KittyWampus]

Please provide the HARD EVIDENCE that there was more than voter suppression and intimidation in Ohio.

Please provide the IRREFUTABLE PROOF that Electronic Voting & Tabulating machines flipped not just Ohio but several other states as well.

Remember, don't just give us evidence about Ohio... include all the other states as well to account for Junior's 3 million vote advantage.

Don't have the hard evidence?

Then why must your persist in whining about what Kerry did in November cause with no proof and the Mediawhores primed and ready to pounce on him if he spoke out he had no other choice.

And by the way, your negativity and inability to acknowledge what various Democrats (including Kerry) have done and are doing now to deal with Election Fraud says more about YOU then about any Democratic politician or DU'er.

[Terran1212]

1. Kerry wasn't that great, anway

There would just be a different group of right-leaning clowns to mock now, instead.

[Pirate Smile]

3. Hmmm. Have you ever voted for Nader?

[tjdee]

6. Not until I came to DU did I learn Kerry was "right-leaning".

Never stops being funny!

(and wrong, but...whatever.)

[LittleClarkie]

9. Ya lost me

who would that be? I can only think of Zell and Joementum as truly right leaning. Maybe a couple others.

[tjdee]

2. He conceded less than twenty four hours later, period.

Hard evidence isn't required. Simple thinking would say "Gee, in 2000 there was some funny business, let's just see where this thing goes first, get as much information as we can."

It's like Kerry woke up a psycho or something, I thought it was really weird.

[KittyWampus]

8. Hard Evidence Isn't Required? You Really Think The Media Would Be

just soooooo happy to back Kerry up in that?

They were already crowning Junior.... and HOPING Kerry would speak out.

Kerry would have been assasinated by horrific coverage and there'd be NOTHING we could to do stop it or reverse that damage.

[tjdee]

16. Sorry, don't buy it. He could have bought a few more hours.

I'm not at all saying he had to drag it out as long as Gore did (which I agreed with, btw).

But less than 24 hours? Just the fact that he was willing to ditch it so soon lost me. I would have been alright if he'd come out Wednesday night even. But he got on the horn with Georgie bright and early to concede. Like a punk.

[sendero]

27. And the ONLY reason THAT would matter..

... is if he wanted another shot in 2008, a shot he now does not deserve.

This subject is TIRING. I don't have to justify my opinion to you or anyone else. THERE IS NO EXCUSE ON SEVERAL LEVELS, INCUDING THE OBVIOUS THAT IF HE DIDN'T HAVE PROOF IT WAS HIS OWN DAMN FAULT, THE PUKES CERTIANLY MADE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THEY WERE STEALING OHIO.

A few well placed high-percentage exit polls would have nipped this shit in the bud pronto, but nobody thought of that? Puhlease.

You can bleat until you fall over, you will never convince me that Kerry didn't fold like a paper napkin just when he had the greatest chance to be a hero. Might it have cost him another run? Yes, it might have. It did anyway.

Oh, were you one of those "he's working behind the scenes" BOZOs here last Nov? If so, I can see why you are trying so hard to REDEEM YOURSELF.

These stupid little shit things about the number of machines in a polling place and crap like that WILL DO NOTHING TO STOP ELECTION THEFT IF THE COUNTS ARE RIGGED. Kerry is WASTING HIS TIME.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. Question with that

I thought I heard that Bush was even pressuring Kerry to concede. Does anybody know about that?

[LittleClarkie]

14. Somehow, with the eyes of the world upon him

I can't see "Gee, let's see where this thing goes first" without hard evidence would play out.

Remember the good old days. When concessions came the night of Nov. 2, not a day or even a month later?

What happened last time wasn't enough, especially when the fraud THIS time appears to have been an entirely different kettle of fish. Kerry's camp prepared for a rehash of 2000, and instead got a new and different cluster fuck. I'm pissed at the perp, not the victim.

[tjdee]

21. What happened last time *was* enough.

IMO, that made it okay to not concede the night of Nov. 2. As I say above, I certainly don't think he could have held on as Gore did, nor should he without this concrete evidence you and the OP are talking about.

If we are to believe 'reports' (LOL), John Edwards even thought they should hang tough for just a tiny bit.

I'm not going to hate Kerry forever or anything, but he wasn't my guy to start with and Nov. 3rd just clinched it for me.

[LittleClarkie]

36. Thing is, I suspect you are in the minority re: the concession

though I'd need some sort of poll to prove it, among Dems anyway. I have yet to meet anyone in my vicinity who thinks he shouldn't have conseded. In fact, dishearteningly, if I even try to bring up the fraud JUST to discuss what needs to change for 2006 and 2008, I get told "He lost. Get over it already." I'll try again, saying it's about the voting, not about Kerry, and yet I hear again "Get over it."

The most receptive folks so far have been a couple of my conservative friends who don't like e voting either.

We all like our system though. Marksure: beeps if the ballot is valid and has a little paper trail coming out its butt as you vote. Ballots are easy to understand too. all you need it a felt tip marker, a bunch of ballots and one or two of those machines. Seems pretty cheap. Would be better than the crap some folks have to deal with.

[Deja Q]

56. Kerry MAKING THE ANNOUNCEMENT 24hrs LATER WAS THE HARD EVIDENCE.

Especially when the paperless voting scandal was at its zenith.

Ignore those who hammer you in their responses. Kerry did what he did. Period. As it took him 4 months before making even a peep of a whisper about the situation, he sure as hell has proven to us all he is no leader.

I wish he had FOUGHT, like he was lying about during his campaign. Even during his campaign and proven in the debates, Kerry could have pounded Bush on ALL of the issues. He often did good, but just as often he could have done GREAT or SUPERLATIVELY. He did not and Bush left himself wide open on many issues.

Kerry wanted it this way.

[Snivi Yllom]

70. because he lost

badly

he knew it was over

[seabeyond]

4. i agree cryingshame, and i know they stole

evidence points to stole. but you are right. i am hoping, they are gathering and investigating adn some time we will be able to say here. and kerry and hillary and the other dems will jump on it. that they too are working on fixing it all

done and are doing now to deal with Election Fraud says more about YOU then about any Democratic politician or DU'er.

[LittleClarkie]

18. And there's still that lawsuit in Ohio

I wonder how it's going. Haven't heard lately. But I also haven't heard that it's closed yet. Maybe I should go look up Don McTigue and see.

[seabeyond]

48. repugs started blaming dems last week for election fraud, my

guess was that soemthing is coming out. and now more and more are talking it again after it being quiet for a while

same happened with plume too, to not too expectant, but makes me wonder

maybe it had to do with curtis passing the lie detector test

[LittleClarkie]

I rather liked it when Blackwell tried to call in Kerry and Edwards

what did he want? I can't remember. Testimony of some sort? But it seemed he was trying to get them out of the case, or at least that's the way some here took it. Whatever they're doing, it seemed to be bugging the stuffings out of Blackwell.

[seabeyond]

74. dupe

[kaitykaity]

5. Look it up yourself.

It's all right here.

http:///therandirhodesshow.com

John Kerry walked away without a fight. John Kerry said
he was a fighter. He's not. He's a putz.

[KittyWampus]

10. Honey, I Was On DU Election Night & The Next Day And In The O4 Forum

so why don't you actually cite what you THINK is hard evidence here.

Cause I know there is none.

[kaitykaity]

15. You know? You do, do you?

Well then, I guess Randi's a liar, and Barbara Boxer's
a liar, and Shiela Jackson Lee's a liar.

Oh, but you know.

:eyes:

[KittyWampus]

33. Funny, During The Hearing NO Tangible, Physical HARD EVIDENCE

of electronic voting fraud was presented.

Boxer and Lee had NOTHING to prove the case for electronic fraud.

NOTHING.

Please, pull the piece of info off blowhard Randi's website that links to HARD PHYSICAL evidence proving electronic fraud that Kerry, his lawyers or activists had on November 3rd... or even NOW.

[kaitykaity]

40. I can't believe you're calling the best liberal voice on the radio

names.

Boxer and Lee stood up before the world and told the
truth. I'm sorry you don't believe it, but there it
is.

Lying to Congress is against the law, you know. If they
had gotten up and lied when they spoke against the fraud of
the 2004 election, they'd be guilty of perjury.

Hello?

[autorank]

22. "I know there is none" haha, please, the grandiosity is painful!

Look, you have now arrogated yourself to an omniscient authority on the election. That is not a serious argument.

[KittyWampus]

30. Are You Suggesting Tangible Evidence Was Available Nov 3rd?

OR that Democrats and investigators have hard, physical evidence PROVING Electronic fraud NOW?

[kaitykaity]

32. Are you suggesting that Kerry had the balls

to stick around and find out?

Since you've declared there is none, why don't you
go to the investigators and tell them your conclusions
and as them to stop wasting taxpayer money.

Since you know so much.

[KittyWampus]

38. Kerry DID Stick Around & IS Finding Out. He Joined Lawsuits & Spoke Out

today in fact about the Bill Democrats want passed for Election Reform.

Sorry, but there's no magic wand available.

Things take time unless you live in lala land.

[kaitykaity]

43. Kerry walked away less than 24 hours into the fight.

What he does now when it doesn't matter DOESN'T MATTER.

Geez, such hostility. I wonder if you're projecting
some other problem onto me, what with the insults about
la la land and all.

Get a grip.

[autorank]

37. You need to read and understand the following regarding evidence.

"Hard physical evidence" would be a joy! That could include video tape that showed people messing with tabulator software or writing and inserting fraud enabling code. It could include machines audited immediately after the election on a random basis. This type of "hard" evidence is not readily available for obvious reasons. There was no one taping a crime (only kids do that) and the computer code for the machines is considered "proprietary" and cannot be examined on any machines.

The reason Ohio did a "recount" or anyone else does a recount is the lack of "hard physical evidence" at the time of an election.

That said, statistical analysis is actually better than "hard physical evidence." It is compelling, has standardized rules, and is THE basis, THE basis for all of our science and engineering. It works day in and day out. When you apply statistical analytic techniques to just the available numbers from a variety of sources, it shows that there are exponential odds against Bush winning as he did, where he did.

This isn't fantasy or caprice, it's scientific analysis of a huge sample of data that doesn't fit scientific expectations by a country mile.

This is the evidence that got me interested and it is hugely compelling is you just review it (I provided you a link in a response down thread).

The timing of the Kerry concession, a sad moment for us all, is not to be conflated with the reality of election fraud.

Take care.

[Dogmudgeon]

7. Challenge to Challengers

This angle of attack isn't effective. Besides, the evidence of vote tampering, even the tenuous evidence, will turn the Silent Wacko community leftward.

Elections are only part of the scheme of things. We need to develop a multi-pronged strategy to win the future. The Radical Rectal Right is a social and cultural dead-end, and our real challenge is civilization, not just a few elections. (Although, yes, we need to start winning elections, too!)

Confronting people in political anxiety is like smacking people who have sunburn on the back.

--p!

[KittyWampus]

13. Note- I Like Linking The GOP To The Term "Dead End".

hope you don't mind if I steal that...

[Dogmudgeon]

26. Be my guest

I'm good with words, but words are common property.

Steal away!

--p!

[graywarrior]

11. Not again

:nopity:

[saltpoint]

12. You forgot to mention that Kerry kidnapped and murdered --

- the Lindberg baby, that he personally shot down Amelia Earhart's plane, and that he was the shadowy figure on the grassy knoll at Dealy Plaza.

Also he is the mastermind behind the Final Solution. Don't forget that.

[Career Prole]

47. Here now...let's let bygones be bygones!

I'd almost forgotten that stuff, including the sorry saga of "Shoeless" John Kerry, banned from baseball for life. :cry:

[saltpoint]

55. I should have listed that, plus I neglected to mention the bad dope he --

-- sold to Jimmy & Janis...

[bpilgrim]

17. FYI: this is about our DEMOCRACY and is MUCH bigger than any one candidate

"Please provide the IRREFUTABLE PROOF that Electronic Voting & Tabulating machines flipped not just Ohio but several other states as well."

with BBV - and some say thats the beauty of it - there is no paper trail to provide 'IRREFUTABLE PROOF' we ALL demand.

kerry promised to fight to make sure every vote counted in nov and then immediately walked away. many folks are still not over it.

if he comes back and FIGHTS to get the word out about the many flaws, fraud and reTHUG connections in our current voting system i am sure that will go a loooong way to soothing ruffled feathers but until he goes the long haul and gets think done he certainly will be watched very carefully by those he represents as is only natural.

we should ALL be counting our lucky stars that so many folks are PAYING ATTENTION and holding EVERYONE in public office ACCOUNTABLE starting with our most basic though precious right to VOTE.


http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/bbv/cspan-repub_caller-paper-trail.mp3

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[sandnsea]

19. They'd have been bitching anyway

If Kerry had won he would have made some decision or statement in a speech that would have pissed the same people off anyway. It's an irrational hatred, plain and simple.

[autorank]

20. cryingshame, hahaha, OMf'ingG, I can't stop, hahaha...see below

Start here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=345146

That should keep you busy.

And since you called me out (and all other diligent DUers) our efforts "says more about YOU then about any Democratic politician or DUer" let me point out two things:

1) da rules, da rules...no personal attacks. That's what, in the trade, is called an ad hominem attack...a diversion from the argument by attacking the person(s) making the argument. Naughty, naughty.

2) Democracy is not a trivial matter. Men without property had to fight for it in our nascent days, women had to fight for it, and blacks had to fight real, real hard for it (remember The Voting Rights Act, a great Democratic Program). Now we're faced with extraordinary statistical evidence that the election was stolen. These are the same statistical techniques that are the basis for all science. It's not nut jobs but academics and professionals who look at just what's available and say, no way!

You may be frustrated at people bashing Kerry. I understand that and it's a valid point for this forum. You are wrong in your clearly implied slander against DUers who carry on the proud tradition of fighting for voting rights!

:hi:

[demgurl]

23. I do not have to give proof.

Who wants proof? We could not provide enough proof even if a memo came out that George Bush arranged everything.

What I say to everyone wanting proof is that I want airtight elections. I want safeties put into place that would assure a fair and honest election on both sides.

Did you know that one of the same businesses that supplies the voting machines (Diebold) also does ATM machines? This means that they know how to make it so that people get a paper trail to their money so it should not be such a big problem to do the same on voting machines, right?

I think it is time to shut up each and every person on the left side and provide them with machines where they can actually trace each and every vote. How could you prove fraud in an election or even prove who won if you do not leave anything behind saying how many voted for each candidate?

If I were to come to you and say, "I have this great machine and am putting a bid in to do all the services for the election." Your natural question would be to say great and ask how it works. Then I tell you it is top of the line and it records every vote. You say, "You mean we would have a copy of each and every vote?" I answer not exactly and that it only records the vote on the machine. You would, of course, respond saying "Yeah, but it has a paper trail or some tangible proof of votes, right?" When I responded no I would expect you to laugh me right out of your office. There have been many incidents, in our country, of recounts during elections. I just have to ask why a company would come up with something where this could not be done. Then I also would have to ask why on earth a politician would ever accept one of these machines let alone how many have been placed across our country.

I then have to ask aren't you all sick and tired of all this whining about fixed elections and rigged voting machines? Can't you just see all this incessant whining going on for all future elections until the machines are changed? You are tired of enough of this whining already, right? How much longer can this possibly go on without giving you a headache?

I think the only way to stop all these liberals and all of their whining is to make sure there is no way in Hades that these machines can possibly be questioned. You must act and you must act now. Get those machines to leave results in cement if you must, but get them to give solid proof of each and every vote cast from here on out. I say to you that this is about the only thing to get liberals to shut up.

I can only think of one reason someone would not want to fix these machines, can you?

[Just Me]

24. Your post is, ummmm,...really confusing.

I've read it three times and still cannot wrap my brain around that written expression of your impression.

"Please provide the HARD EVIDENCE that there was more than voter suppression and intimidation in Ohio."

HUH?

Perhaps you demand evidence that refutes the facts we've collected PROVING voter suppression and intimidation.

[Bluebear]

25. All else aside, does anyone else hate that word "whining"?

I hear the RW use it soooo much whenever they hear a different view. No offense to the OP, it just grates on me like few other words do.

[Just Me]

35. It's "used" by the RW to reduce valuable perceptions/opinions,...

,...and, yes,...I hate how the word "whining" is recklessly abused.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. How about THIS --

Why doesn't everyone decide what they want to do individually, and if some of our ideas of praxis should overlap, we can work together.

This way, different points of view and ideas about social change can all be represented without compromises, and with only a minimum of in-fighing.

I think Kerry was more of a positive than a negative, but that's just me. It's not about Kerry, anyway -- it's about the future.

--p!

[Eloriel]

29. Well isn't that special?

(Now THERE's a phrase I've only used about one other time in my life. I reserve it for the truly special circumstances like this one.)

Who the hell do you think you are? You obviously don't understand much about this whole issue of the election being stolen. Again.

The whole freakin' POINT of wishing Kerry hadn't conceded at warp speed is precisely that it would have given us much better opportunity -- and more time -- to ferret out some of the information and data that could LEAD to iron-clad proof.

And those of you who stomp your pretty little feetsies and demand proof just amuse the hell outta me. Guess what? PROOF doesn't usually just present itself, materialize out of thin air. Nope, it's usually discovered or uncovered or developed as a result of little things like discovery in court cases and such -- you know, the kinds of things PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES CAN DO whereas the rest of us poor nobodies can't.

Further, if you haven't been paying attention periodically to the data that HAS been ferreted out, analyzed and shared in the Presidential Election forum, you've got both arms tied behind your back in this discussion. No, it doesnt' rise to the level of iron-clad proof, but by God, it's pretty damn compelling AND there are people who've been sent to prison AND to their deaths on far, far less.

But you just go right ahead and stick up for the Senator. I'm sure he appreciates it ever so much. Me, once he did that, I was positive that I was just as glad he threw in the towel so quickly -- who'd want THAT in the White House? Better than Bush? Sure, anyone would be better than Bush, but that doesn't mean he'd be good. At least with Bush there aren't any illusions and NO expectations to get dashed.

Edit: You ought to read this fairly short post:
Electronic Voting: To anyone that has not figured this out yet:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3463336

(for starters)

[KittyWampus]

42. Ferret Out Information? HaHaHa. Yeah, Blackwell Woulda Been REAL

helpful... what with the Mediawhores attacking Kerry day in and day out for not conceding when he was THREE MILLION VOTES BEHIND.

Yeah, just a few more hours would have been all we needed to ferret out the necessary PHYSICAL EVIDENCE...

[autorank]

45. Yo, cryingshame, here it is.

I left you a thoughtful post above with this in it. Take a look and read my post too, it will be worth it.

Start here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=345146

[ClarkUSA]

49. Um, Kerry lost by 60K in OH, not "THREE MILLION VOTES"

The Ukraine's opposition party and Yushenko didn't demand "HARD evidence" before they started their Orange Revolution -- those exit poll discrepancies (very similar in % range to Kerry's in OH) were enough for everyone in the world community to believe there was widespread voter fraud.

Denial isn't pleasant, but neither is the sense of betrayal.

And didn't Kerry ask Barbara Boxer not to vote "aye" on January 6 or am I remembering incorrectly?

Perhaps Kerry also needs to return the $6-7 million he collected from grassroots supporters in his "recount fund" instead of salting it away for 2008 legal expenses. Not too happy about the $15-16 million he kept from the general election either. The DNC could have used that to rebuild the party (I recall the Party was PISSED to find out Kerry had so damn much left over; they wondered why he had not spent more of it in OH) -- instead of being at a 4-1 disadvantage with the RNC at the end of the election with only a few million in the Democratic till. For Kerry to pad his 2008 run with that money doesn't sit well.

[radwriter0555]

31. Maybe you need to read THIS:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3463336&mesg_id=3463336

The poster put it BRILLIANTLY.

[Trajan]

34. These idiotic challenges ....

... are best left in the schoolyard ....

Who the FUCK thinks they can control the discourse between autonomous beings ? ...

Get a grip ....

[FreedomAngel82]

39. All you have to do

is visit http://www.votecobb.org and watch his video's. Also check out http://www.bushflash.com/media.html and watch the "Stolen Election 2004" video.

[cry baby]

44. Hey, can't we all just get along?????

Why do some here insist on bitching at each other - we are on the same side, damn it. Voting rights is an important issue. Kerry is doing things to see that fraud doesn't happen (again). Why can't we all be happy with the effort of DUers that are tirelessly trying to find truth, and Kerry doing what he can short of storming the White House with the Mass. National Guard.

[autorank]

46. Rodney, didn't you notice, somebody threw a Molotov cocktail.

[Just Me]

51. Why?

Why?

I just don't get it.

Why?

:shrug:

[autorank]

80. Rodney King, the guy who said that after the LA Riots. He was

the guy the cops beat up and when the cops got off in their trial, LA burned. They interviewed him on TV and he made a plea for the riots to stop, ending with the phrase you used. The "molotov cocktail" reference is to the original post in this message.

:hi:

[sendero]

58. I wasn't doing any "whining".

... but then folks I cannot appropriately name have to come here and piss on open wounds.

So here is some whining: Kerry's bogus little initiative is too little, too late and is typical of his fucking pink tutu, nuanced, watching-my-political-ass bullshit that impresses the feeble minded around here.

How's that for whining?

[cry baby]

59. You are absolutely right - no challenge should have been made.

It's just silly and counterproductive, not persuasive.

BTW, I used the word "bitching", not whining, and I used it for both sides of this issue.

Why do you take this bait?

[sendero]

62. Why do I take the bait?

Because I'm not going to let a premise I viscerally disagree with stand. Folks who think they can come back next week, next month, next year and I will not express my opinion on Kerry's fatal punk out are sorely mistaken.

I'll be here, and I'll make the same arguments all over. Anyone that doesn't like it can stop trying to rewrite history.

(I used 'whining' in reference to the OP)

[cry baby]

68. I understand your passion, I really do.

But just because it's said, doesn't make it true. Some people are moving on to more recent events and some are staying behind to find what really happened. Both are necessary. The OP has a snippiness to it, I agree. The OP's kind of challenge is just not persuasive.

[sendero]

71. Ok...

... you seem reasonable. I'm not always, and I know that.

Here's the thing - there is nothing, nothing, NOTHING more important that the voting integrity issue.

Dems will not control jack until this problem is solved. We all knew it was happening, and it could have been stopped in its tracks - but the only person with the power and gravitas to do something punked out.

That is really what I believe. There is NO EXCUSE for not catching them at it red-handed, we all knew they were going to do it.

Some might say that "well you can't prove it"? I don't care - the only reason we can't prove it is that nobody tried to prove it.

Others will say "Kerry really believed all was fair", well, if that's the case I don't want another moron running the country anyway.

There just is no excuse that I've heard yet that makes me feel any better about it. And every time someone comes here trying to sell another story, it pisses me off to no end.

Go ahead, tell yourself whatever you want. But the facts are that the election was stolen, not just by the obvious voter roll purges, absentee ballot shenanigans, and polling place pre-planned inadquacies, but electronically. And as a computer programmer with 2 decades under my belt I can tell you that technologically, it was easy.

So yet another election (this is at least the third) passes where we let this shit go by. We'll eventually catch them red-handed, when someone with a fucking brain wakes up and smells the coffee. I don't think it will be John Kerry that does it.

[cry baby]

72. I like your posts, the more you type - the madder you get.

Anger is constructive and if you are part of the voting issue, then your anger is well targeted. You waste your energy here arguing about Kerry. Forget him, he is a great senator and we need him to do what he's doing.

First of all, the voting issue is the most important issue of all, absolutely. Do I think there were votes stolen, yes. Can we ever prove it to the extent that something can actually be done about the 2004 election, no - because the people who rigged it have made it unprovable. The machines and software were designed for just that. Does that mean we should ever stop working to make voting issues better and "unstealable", yes!!!! We had better because we will never win an election again if we don't. I believe Kerry knows what happened, but it's unprovable. Nothing he can do about it except work on voting issues.

I hope you never feel better about it, that is where your energy and passion come from. Be angry - be persuasive! I'm with you.

[sendero]

73. LOL...

.... you ain't seen me mad yet :) I'm just getting warmed up :) :) :)

Well, if Mr Kerry goes to the heart of the matter, getting paper trails, then he will have redeemed himself.

If he skirts around the peripheral issues of precinct machine counts, voter roll purges, and stuff like that, he's WASTING HIS FREAKING TIME, and OURS.

As they say "we shall see". I'll give it a rest now, I think I've said all I can... thanks for giving me an excuse to vent the rest of my story :evilgrin:

[cry baby]

77. I enjoyed it.

:hi:

edit to say that I see you are from Big D. I grew up in Arlington. It's a small world.

[cry baby]

82. Oops, I made an error, the first one ever!

In my above post, #72 I said this " Does that mean we should ever stop working to make voting issues better and "unstealable", yes!!!! We had better because we will never win an election again if we don't."

The answer I meant to write to that question is an emphatic NO!!

Maybe I should go to bed and start over tomorrow.

[Selteri]

50. With how quickly there were questions about this election

He should have stood up and said he had a question and not conceded so quickly and used his lawyers for a real recount because the one we got here in Northwestern Ohio was HENKEY at best.

[The Gigmeister]

52. Give it up. I don't think many of these people are real Democrats.

I think many of them are disruptors. Anything to keep us focusing on becomming more appealing to more Americans and actually WINNING next time.

[Individualist]

57. So call Randi Rhodes

and tell her she's a disruptor or not a real democrat. And please do so while she's on the air; that's a conversation I'd love to hear!

[The Gigmeister]

60. Randi is interested in ratings, and that's it. She'll say ANYTHING!

I can't listen to her. I've been tired of hate radio for over 10 years now, and I'm not going to listen to her just because she's on our side.

[Individualist]

63. Your reply says more about you

than it does about Randi.

[The Gigmeister]

67. No...It concerns Randi. Nothing about me.

Except for my preferences. And I don't care what you think about them.

Nice try, though.

[troubleinwinter]

53. Sorry, it is not "irrefutable", just 959,000 : 1

I guess I better save these links. Somebody will doubtless bring up this same question every fucking week.

http://www.uscountvotes.org/

http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2004_Edison-Mitofsky.pdf

http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_summary.pdf

Edit: It is not the question, as there may be many people who may be unaware of the numerous reliable reports on this. It was the tone of the original message that got me a bit testy. Apologies to those who have not seen the studies.

[cry baby]

54. Why the challenge? What does it serve, are you trying to be

persuasive?

Can all of you here that go round and round about this same thing over and over think of DU like this:
This is a strong, willful, brilliant bunch of dems and lefties that stand arm in arm against the RW machine. Imagine all of us as bumper cars - we are just bumping around hitting people just to be hitting them. It's even kind of fun, gets the adreneline going, sharpens skills, etc. But the bumper cars are really going nowhere are they? They just keep banging into the same cars over and over. Sometimes someone can even get hurt a little bit and hold a grudge. Then that person will go after the one that hurt them and it is never-ending. Get the picture? Imagine all the bumper cars going in the same direction. Wouldn't those cute little cars go a lot further? Wouldn't the flow of a bunch of bumper cars all going in the same direction be stronger and more apt to run over anything that gets in their way in their quest for their ultimate destination?

[KoKo]

61. Now you come with this post of yours? When so many of us have been

in DU Elections Forum and know about all the problems in other states?

Here in NC we had a corrupted election and are facing haggling over revoting because "paperless trail Touch Screens" lost thousands of votes that could have gone to Dems. Plus we have a tie in electorial votes between Burr and Bowles...coincidence?

You didn't do your post election time here on DU to post such an ill informed post. :shrug:

[earth mom]

64. I think Kerry should have fought harder and a helluva lot longer

than less than 24 hours. I was pissed at him for quite awhile. But he did do some things to redeem himself and I gradually got over it. Now I can only hope that there is a very good reason behind his actions. However, since the stolen election, I've found that I trust very few politicians totally anymore these days-save Boxer, Conyers and Dean .

That said, I am rooting for Kerry to win in 2008 and it's based on several things he has done, but mainly because of how he spoke out against the Vietnam War way back when. I just wish he would get some of that fighting spirit back. We need no holds barred fighters on our side big time. These days, I don't think Kerry is one of them, though I would love to be proven wrong.

[Ironpost]

65. Is elephant blood red?

[MoonRiver]

66. Well, if it wasn't fraud then Kerry LOST.

Why should we want a loser to run again? NO THANKS.

[Chomskyite]

69. I really couldn't have found a better opportunity than this

. . . to post the John Conyers report, in which you'll find more than enough proof of fraud in Ohio.

http://truthout.org/Conyersreport.pdf

I challenge you to go there, read it and then post here why Conyers and his staff are full of manure.

I will also msg you personally so that you will have no excuse for avoiding comment on this.

[KittyWampus]

83. One Last Time For Those Who Can't Grasp The Simple Fact: There Is NO

physical, hard evidence in hand.

They have not uncovered the code in any machine that says- put every 100th vote for Kerry into Bush.

What part of that don't you grasp?

By the way, I READ THE CONYERS REPORT & WATCHED THE HEARINGS.

Why don't YOU pull out what YOU think is rock solid proof of tampering/illegal code in the machines/tabulators.

Clue, there isn't anything YET.

It's a catch 22 for the Democrats.

AND YET YOU BLAME KERRY FOR IT.

We need the machines to get the physical evidence and without that physical evidence it's going to take a LOOOOONG time to get to the machines via court actions WHICH KERRY IS DOING. And by the time we DO get to the machines, much of the evidence will have been destroyed.

[troubleinwinter]

85. Show me

Show me some physical, hard evidence in hand that the earth revolves around the sun.

Rock-solid proof. Oh, I know they "say" they have photos from NASA, but those may be fake.

PROVE it to me. Don't ask me to just look at "scientific analyses" and atronomic theories and to use my intelligence. I want ROCK SOLID HARD PHYSICAL PROOF that the earth revolves around the sun. Indisputable evidence.

Proof so indesputable and undeniable, that I can show it to a rainforest tribesman and he will know immediately that I am 100% right, even if he is a registered republican.

[seabeyond]

75. what do you think of this, teresa said that she thinks the

election was stolen. kerry talks about the little stuff. not the meat and potato for me. but he wants to remain in the senate and fight, like what he has been doing since the senate got back in in january. so he is talking about fixing the voting and fighting his fights against bush. he was all over today

and teresa thinks it was stolen. that thought has to have come his way. he has to have looked at it and thought about it. and though he isnt telling the public about this, dont you think that it is at least a consideration for t=him this happened, and they have to be doing something

i am not at the point where i am going to say these people are clueless to what we see on the election theft. i might have in nov and dec, but i am not there anymore. i think they are aware just wouldnt behove them or their battles right now to be making allegations when they cant support them yet

[KittyWampus]

84. I KNOW It Was Stolen. But Kerry/Democrats/We Need More Than

statistics before Democratic politicians can say that.

[Lerkfish]

76. no offense, but I feel better about people expressing their

dissatisfaction than I do about your starting a thread like this....which feels a bit flamebaity to me, sorry.

I suppose I'm one of those people you want to draw into this campfire because I have expressed dismay at Kerry's quick capitulation. In fact, I started a thread about it that devolved into a flamefest....for which I apologized to skinner, and he accepted my apology.
I was expressing my frustration...which I think is a lot more honorable than attempting to chide others from expressing their frustration.
If we cannot discuss strategy, then how can we develop the best one? If we cannot express doubts, then how can we have those doubts reassured? If we all think as one, then how do we prevent ourselves from being a cult, who accepts what our leaders say or do without question? Is that what we really want?

If I think a dem has made a tactical error, I think the ability to point that out is of greater value than enforcing loyalty. That is the weakness that Bush is experiencing now...by surrounding himself with sycophants and yes men, he has insulated himself from dissent to the point that his grasp of reality is faulty. Do we want that from our leaders?

I know I don't. If you do, then we'll have to disagree.

[goodboy]

78. ANDY STEPHENSON!!! WHERE ARE YOU?>!?!?!

[KnowerOfLogic]

79. When you find a turtle on a fencepost, you don't need irrefutable

proof that someone put it there. The simple process of deduction and common sense is enough to conclude that it didn't get there by itself.

[autorank]

81. When the doubters join the cause, the truth will move off pause!

[WilliamPitt]

86. I believe there was fraud in Ohio

I've personally interviewed several of the poll watchers who saw some crazy shit. Ditto intimidation and suppression.

That having been said, I don't get all the people who clobber Kerry for conceding. For a while, I was one who thought that he blew it by conceding, and said so here several times. But as the story and the work have developed, it came to me: It took several weeks to develop any evidence at all of fraud, suppression and intimidation. Weeks.

One poster above said something like, "He could have held out a few more hours." Sure, he could have done that...and would still have been short the 1,000 hours needed to gather any data. He could have held out a week. Wouldn't have mattered.

Yes, there was fraud. No, Kerry wasn't in a position to stand firm with no evidence in hand. The hard data didn't come in until mid-December.

btw, if you are sincere about looking at the evidence, check out Conyers' site:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/index.html

Search under 'Ohio,' and you'll find what you need.