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Treaty of Tripoli confirms America founded as secular nation

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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:07 AM
Original message
Treaty of Tripoli confirms America founded as secular nation
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

(chock full of good info and specific quotes from the founding fathers expressing that nation is secular not religious)

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

...

Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

...

Treaty of Tripoli

Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the  Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or  tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act  of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext  arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony  existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not  found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep. The language is unambiguous.
And I believe this was passed by a unanimous or near-unanimous vote in the Senate...
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. So...hey, fundies...
GET OVER IT.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. Though I can't quote all the articles involved....
the founding fathers admitted they used religion only as a way to control a new country, not because they had any actual belief in religion.
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Founders totally irrelevant: Ideas must stand on own two feet
Dont let them put your thoughts in the box of "founding fathers control your thoughts limits".

every idea must stand testing on its own.

what founding fathers thought is of no relevance to the merit of any idea about our land.

a good idea is a good idea, on its own quality. A bad one is a bad one as revealed when it is tested on its own merits. Fathers two centuries ago, have no relevance. The speaker of an idea , does not add or subtract from the quality of the idea.


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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I don't understand the point you are trying to make
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. So the people who founded the nation are irrelevant on how it was founded?
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. if the founders were irrelevant there would be no nation
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. The Founders have no relevance? Codswallop.
Run your theory past the biographers of Adams, Franklin, Paine and Jefferson and see how they feel about it.

I predict you won't survive the evening with that crew.

From Joan Didion: "The ability to think for one's self depends on the mastery of language."

Taken to historical context, the ideas ARE the speaker, the speaker IS the idea.

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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. Here's what John Adams said
Edited on Sun Apr-10-05 01:32 AM by NormaR
In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" <1787-1788>, John Adams wrote:


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
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Selteri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. Just another example of how wrong the 'right' keeps getting things N/T
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That or Congress lied through its teeth back then.
Not that I really care personally...
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. Clarification
That document claims that the state is secular. It makes no claims about the nation. The state is the apparatus of government. The nation is the actual body of people inhabiting the territory.

This may seem to be quibbling, but a certain amount of precision actually makes this debate winnable on extremist terms. How?

Christian men founded a secular state. Let them answer that argument.

P.S. I realize there were Deists and agnostics and whatall. The point I'm going for is that Adams was maybe the most religious president ever to serve. That's the guy who said the state was secular.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. Remember why Europeans deserted to America
They left a rigid theocratic religious atmosphere with a built in caste system. They saw the inequities and hypocrisies of a system who only promoted the rich and only gave power to the rich. They saw the working class oppressed under their religious theocratic system. Now Bushco wants that once again. We better have the strength to say "hell, no" and mean it.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. On Its Way to My Local Wingnut Fundie - Just to Irritate (Can't Convert)
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. If the US had been a Xian nation, the sultan would have
had a much harder time squelching his feelings of religious superiority and probably would have felt justified by his imams or his own lights in his piracy. This is why it was stated as a presupposition, not as something actively being affirmed by either side.

The US government was not founded as a Christian government. But Adams himself said that the constitution was written for a virtuous and religious people, it the same document another poster cited above. Jefferson said he couldn't establish a day of Thanksgiving; but nonetheless, others already had, before he even made that statement.

And none of this prevented individual states from having official religions. The first amendment did not apply to anything but the federal government, specifically to Congress and laws that they pass, for quite a while.
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