The Economic Tsunami : Coming Sooner Than You Think

[Robbien]

By Mike Whitney

It seems that there are a growing number of people who believe as I do, that the economic tsunami planned by the Bush administration is probably only months away. In just 5 short years the national debt has increased by nearly 3 trillion dollars while the dollar has continued its predictable decline. The dollar has fallen a whopping 38% since Bush took office, due largely to the massive $450 billion per year tax cuts. At the same time, numerous laws have been passed (Patriot Act, Intelligence Reform Bill, Homeland Security Bill, National ID, Passport requirements etc) anticipating the need for greater repression when the economy takes its inevitable nosedive. Regrettably, that nosedive looks to be coming sooner rather than later.

. . .

The country has been intentionally plundered and will eventually wind up in the hands of its creditors as Bush and his lieutenants planned from the very beginning. Those who don't believe this should note the methodical way that the deficits have been produced at (around) $450 billion per year; a systematic and orderly siphoning off of the nation's future. The value of the dollar and the increasing national debt follow exactly the same (deliberate) downward trajectory.

This same Ponzi scheme has been carried out repeatedly by the IMF and World Bank throughout the world; Argentina being the last dramatic illustration. (Argentina's economic collapse occurred when its trade deficit was running at 4%; right now ours is at an unprecedented 6%.) Bankruptcy is a fairly straight forward way of delivering valuable public assets and resources to collaborative industries, and of annihilating national sovereignty. After a nation is successfully driven to destitution, public policy decisions are made by creditors and not by representatives of the people. (Enter, Paul Wolfowitz)

. . .

The Bush administration is mainly comprised of internationalists. That doesn't mean that they "hate America"; simply that they are committed to bringing America into line with the "new world order" and an economic regime that has been approved by corporate and financial elites alike. Their patriotism extends no further than the garish tri-colored flag on their lapel. The catastrophe that middle class Americans face is what these elites breezily refer to as "shock therapy"; a sudden jolt, followed by fundamental changes to the system. In the near future we can expect tax reform, fiscal discipline, deregulation, free capital flows, lowered tariffs, reduced public services, and privatization. In other words, a society entirely designed to service the needs of corporations.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_16735.shtml

this has been posted in editorials but it has been suggested there may be a broader DU interest in this potential scheme.

[whistle]

1. By the time Bush leaves office mortgage rates will be back.....

...up to where Poppy Bush had them in 1992 at around 12.5% for fixed 30 year home mortgages.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. I think so too

Hard times are probably coming pretty soon. I feel bad for whoever the next president is (hopefully a democrat).

[Nite Owl]

2. Don't all the peices of the puzzle begin to fit.

The bankrupcy bill, the tort 'reforms', social security, the judges. They want the people to be boxed in. Only the wealthiest survive and control.

[NEOBuckeye]

7. Just let them keep thinking that.

When enough of the population loses their suburban dream homes and are forced to $7.50 per gallon for gas because of Peak Oil and Capitalist greed, there will be no bunker or security force strong enough to hold back the angry masses from exacting their revenge upon the elitists.

There is much truth to the adage that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[FlemingsGhost]

10. Yup ... Revolution

Soon.

[Melynn]

52. The catalyst for Revolution will be election fraud

Why do I say that? Because in the past if the party in power did a bad job then the party out of power was voted into office. So people had a choice or an illusion of choice.

Now with election fraud there is no way to vote the Repugs out. With Diebold machines, the neo-cons always win. If the people want change....too bad. So that only leaves one alternative to changing the power structure.....revolution.

I think the neo's might have out smarted themselves on the whole rigged election thing.

[truth2power]

18. If there were any justice in the world, those accountable

for the plundering of our country would be called to account.

Alas, they will find a way to blame the "libruls", and we'll be the focus of their wrath.

[NEOBuckeye]

27. Not this time.

The NeoCon GOP has done absolutely nothing to avert this crisis. If anything, they have brought it on even faster than when it might otherwise have occured.

They've got Congress, the Presidency and the Courts. The people who are waking up now are seeing this and they are angry, not at us, but at Bush and the Republicans since they are the ones in power and doing nothing to help them.

You will see even more people waking up to this reality in the months and years ahead.

[Toots]

32. Thus enters Diebold

Before Bush* was even sworn in, even before all the votes had been counted theystarted in. Election Judges could not be trusted. People are subjective where machines are objective so only machines can be trusted. That was opening salvo against the people of the United States. Especially after running on the theme "I Trust the People" before even entering office they put the LIE to that. They know that eventually people will wake up and realize things have gone horribly astray and they have their plan for that.. DIEBOLD..They are not about to lose their chance to actually RULE THE WORLD. It is Treason what they are doing but the people are so conned that they just can't see or won't see I should say. The evidence is everywhere starting with Farenheit 911 and ending with this last commission's release on Intelligence Failures that led to War with Iraq. My suggestion is to fight fire with fire. They do everything for show. Every single action is choreographed and rehearsed. It is all show and the Media eats it up because it means big bucks for them. My suggestion is to choreograph some events of our own. Billionaires for Bush* is a good example of what we need to do but we need to do it often and in the most Media grabbing way possible. We have to attract notice and get the public's attention. Greenpeace stages huge events to garner support for whatever cause they are working on and we need to do the same. Street Theatre only (as Cheney would say) "Big Time" We can not wait for the Democratic Leadership to step up to the plate. They have had over a decade to do so and they haven't. We need to take to the streets but not for revolution but for attention. We need people to constantly be made aware that things are just not quite right. Our government is not working as it should. I guess organization would be the first big step. In the sixties there was "The Weathermen" and then SDS and others. All we have at the moment is a small media voice and no real street voice although Code Pink is trying hard..just my $.02 worth

[NEOBuckeye]

46. We know of Diebold. Others soon will.

The Moderate Republicans, post-Sciavo, have begun to wake up and are starting to realize that their party truly is in the hands of wacko extremists.

Thus, the beginning of a major division in the GOP.

Surely, the members of the moderate faction, which is now marginalized and excluded from the key positions of influence, will want to make sure voting is as accurate as possible while they attempt to wrestle back control of their party from the wacko extremists. Like us, I think they will be very concerned about the role of electronic voting machines.

People are waking up.

[truth2power]

36. I fervently hope so! *fingers crossed* n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

45. Don't be too surprised though if they do

They always find SOME WAY to blame us. "Liberal media" for example. There is no such thing but they still have this myth going around. Also I read yesterday an article that a lot of people in the country don't even know the republicans control everything so if some radio talk head like O'Reilly or Limbaugh tell the people who listen it was our fault they'll believe it and blame us. Just because the republicans hold all the power now doesn't mean they'll get blamed. They haven't yet and I'm not holding my breath for them to blame the republicans for anything.

[NEOBuckeye]

47. Oh, I'm sure that they will blame us.

But my point is, they can only get away with it for so long, as social conditions worsen. As gas prices skyrocket because of Peak Oil, the cost of everything else rises, and there are increasingly fewer jobs available, people are really going to start paying attention to what Congress and Bush are doing about it. When they are losing their suburban mansions and finally begin to see that the Republican Party isn't helping them, and, in fact is hurting them by cutting social programs, financial aid and bankruptcy protection, the anti-liberal lies will lose their punch and the GOP will no longer be able to dodge blame or additional scrutiny. The media will also lose its credibility, and ratings for Faux News will drop big time.

That time is actually much closer than you think.

[Nostradammit]

55. Maybe our luck will change.

Perhaps all is NOT lost.

[Just Me]

61. The neoCON GOP created the conditions ON PURPOSE!!!

They are imposing the same kind of economic infliction on the USA that they have on 3rd world countries. If they are not ultimately impeached/indicted for their treason, I will surrender whatever belief I have left in this nation.

[gordianot]

29. Read how Mr. Hoover left his Presidency.

The Secret Service had their revolvers drawn. This is never done in the presence of the President unless there is eminent threat. If memory does not fail me it was Elanor Roosevelt who reported that.

No I do not doubt there is an economic tsunami on the way, but I do not think there was a real plan for this other than the result of raw greed.

What finally convinced me of my current position (subject to change) was who would choose to live in a bunker? Destroy the Middle class on purpose there would not be a Praetorian Guard. What would George do put the twins in a tank to protect the ranch?

[FreedomAngel82]

44. Exactly

And Bush putting Wolfowitz in the World Bank.

[Robbien]

48. And to complete the puzzle keeping the others in line enters Bolton

to control the UN politically while Wolfowitz holds the purse strings of the World Bank.

[KlatooBNikto]

3. This time the economic tsunami will be caused by the collapse of

our domestic auto industry with GM and Ford doing the honors. That has already triggered the deathwatch over several of their major suppliers including Delphi and Visteon.The rising prices of gasoline nationwide has obliterated the sales of their biggest profit producers,big trucks and SUV's.They do not have a prayer selling any cars with a tidy profit because the Japanese and Germans are clobbering them, with the Korean cars running a respectable third. Dieter Zetsche, Daimler-Chrysler's Chairman, says that all scenarios project things getting worse in the years ahead.

The fall of GM and its supllier base will essentially usher in depression level misery and suffering in all states in the Midwest.The financial impact on Wall Street and the big investment banks will be severe indeed.

Just as we relied on the numbers produced by the Andersens in business, we have relied on the words of our politicians that all will be well. I am sure fear will stalk our country when this economic tsunami hits us and we will need another FDR to rescue us.

[roguevalley]

6. Either GM or Ford is supposed to lay off 100,000 workers by

Christmas. Enjoy yourself until then.

[ladjf]

20. And if oil reaches 105.00 per barrel, it will be the end of the

airline industry. Numerous other industries depend on the airlines.

[NEOBuckeye]

4. The elitists overlook history. Eventually, the people will revolt.

And if they aren't very careful, it will be their heads getting divorced from their bodies at the guillotine.

[Robbien]

8. Eventually. But that eventually may not be in our lifetimes.

Look at how long South America has been oppressed by the corporate elite. There is some rustling of movement now, but their oppression has lasted decades and decades and decades. More than one generation has come and gone while the puppet govenors helped keep the people oppressed.

[jwirr]

9. South and Central America

had many uneducated people who did not know that they could live better. They did not have the American dream instilled in their hearts as we did. When they were oppressed they did not see it as betrayal but as simple oppression. We will see it as betrayal. We will burn with the zeal of reformers and it will not die.

[Robbien]

12. I wouldn't look down on the SAs if I were you

As each day passes we lose another right or priviledge and the masses accept it.

Are you ready in say June or September to not be able to get your money from your accounts because the money is gone offshore along with the global elites? Mega-Grocery stores are a thing of the past and black market goods are the best things available.

Yes the people may rise up in the streets, but most of them will be busy just trying to get their families fed and kept safe.

If and when this thing hits it will blindside almost everyone because they all have been distracted with Michael Jackson or some such. It happened that fast in Argentina just three years ago. Argentina who has a very educated population and that education protected them not one whit.

[NEOBuckeye]

14. Running offshore is very stupid of the elites. They can and will be found.

They seem to be trying very hard to make the people angry enough to take back this country. When that happens, the armed forces will be sent for them and their stolen money.

[Robbien]

17. You are thinking too small

Remember this is global, when the US goes down so will the rest of the world. As the article says, a few countries are out there trying to band together and protect themselves against the financial dollar crash.

The armed services work for the corporate elites. They will not be going after anyone, they will be busy protecting the elites. And with our rights being taken away, we will be the ones in harm's way.

[NEOBuckeye]

23. Not at all. Armed forces still depend upon a supportive public for troops.

An economic collapse will result in depression and great hardship for virtually everyone in the country and the world. If that hardship continues for too long under an uncooperative, oppressive goverment here, the public will revolt, rise up and overthrow that government. Woe to the elites, corporate or otherwise, who stand in their way.

Given the way the elites have shit all over the troops and their families, and the fact that the recruiters are missing their monthly targets, they won't have much of a standing army left to defend them should the aforementioned come to pass. And that's if the army doesn't cast its' lot with the revolt.

Let the elites try and escape to some island bunker with their beloved money. A new government, however, might just send an army to hunt down those thieves who raided the treasury.

[Robbien]

30. The official armed services are deployed and out of range

and the corporate elite have their own armed services which is larger than the official armed services. There are as many mercs in Iraq as there are servicemen. There are mercs all over the world creating mayhem, all of which do not pledge their allegiance to the US (although we pay for them) but to the corporate elite.

Say the collapse happened today. The servicemen are in Iraq (and other parts of the world) but all their support services (controlled by the corporate elite) mysteriously disappears. They cannot get home because there are no planes (the corporate elite also controls those). But the corporate elite gathers up all their mercs and settles in to where ever their elite resort is.

You are sitting here in the US with no groceries and no energy and only the money you have in your pocket right now.

[NEOBuckeye]

51. Don't underestimate human ingenuity, or the will/desire for revenge.

If it really comes to that, and the elites are that bent on screwing America and the world while fleeing to some remote island bunker with the treasury, it would be an unprecedented shock to the American psyche. In response, I think you and I would see quite a public undertaking here, if not elsewhere, to get the infrastructure back up in some form or another, and a genuine effort to hunt them down like the vermin that they are. Even if it has to be with a navy of sailboats armed with cannons.

Besides, if they are so stupid to gather themselves and everything else they have on an island or three, it makes them that much easier to target and "liquidate". An ascending global power like China might even willingly do the job to off a handful of potential future threats. Or else, they could pay off the mercs to turn on their clients.

At any rate, I don't think this is a likely scenario. More likely, most of them will stay and try to enslave the people via the Patriot Acts while keeping the Faux propaganda machine blaring 24/7 to remind us of all the good things. like patriotism, sacrifice and Pat Robertson.

[Jackpine Radical]

65. We already have a largely mercenary army

and as conditions get worse, many will be willing to sign up for hots, cots & a chance to shoot somebody. The oppressed have a long history of identifying with their abusers. Look no further than to Haymarket Square in the 1880's, or many other places during the labor struggles of the early 20th century to see cops & National Guardsmen from the lower classes shooting down members of their own class on the orders of the rich.

[gordianot]

33. Too many miscalculations.

I am convinced the administration thought they would have pacified Iraq by now. With Iraqi oil flowing they would have OPEC on the ropes. The Saud-i's would go along to protect their American investments.

The problem is they placed a complete total screw up as Chairman of the Board **. They compounded the error by ignoring a replacement in 2004 who was somewhat more populist. Now they are facing complete disaster before 2006 and may loose everything.

Large numbers of Americans are not going to stand for loss of their living standards. The gas goes, the car goes, empty Supermarkets, kids no longer go to College, will finally unite a divided nation.

This time Poppy will not be able to bail out Junior.:nuke: :hide:

[NEOBuckeye]

13. Oh, it will come here. And much sooner than you think.

I don't know as much as I should about South America's history, so I really can't speak for them. What I can tell you is that the collective impact of Peak Oil and Economic Collapse here in America is going to serve as a deafening wake-up call to the masses.

Remember that people are indoctrinated with the "American Dream" from the moment they leave the womb. Virtually everyone here, at some point, in some way, believes that they can become or achieve whatever they want, if they at least work hard and long enough. But what if you can't even get a decent paying job that will help you pay a mortgage payment for your first house? What if you or a family member gets sick, you are financially overwhelmed by medical bills and try to declare bankruptcy to save your house, but you can't?

The American Dream is dying. It is dying for thousands of people each day. And each day, thousands of people are beginning to ask questions. Those questions will eventually lead them to the halls of power in Washington D.C., and to the likes of Frist, DeLay and Bush. It will lead them to question many other things, like Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Fox News, and anyone else who is trying to put a thin coat of rose paint over the window of reality.

I can't tell you what day it will come. All I can tell you is that by doing nothing to avert the impending crisis, Bush, DeLay and the GOP are essentially playing with fire. They must have a masochistic desire to be burned.

[ladjf]

21. South and Central America, it has lasted for hundreds of years.

However, perhaps, Americans could learn from the new populist trends taking place in the Americas and learn the lesson a bit faster. Keep your eyes on the political situation in Mexico. If the mayor of Mexico City , Ordanda (sp), were to win the Presidency, it would be great news for people. If he is arrested and kept out of the election, it would mean that the elite fascists are still in the driver's seat.

[Robbien]

26. There are three things besides Venezuela to watch right now

As you say the Mexico mayor's bid for the presidency along with his problems with Fox/BushCo trying to keep him out.

The OAS vote this next week. If the the guy from Chile wins, it means that BushCo couldn't force his man down their throats.

The UN Human Rights vote on Cuban human rights. BushCo is trying to force the UN into censuring Cuba, but this year he is meeting with fierce resistance from SA and EU. Need to watch to see who wins.

[fasttense]

5. You left out the soon to be passed tougher bankruptcy laws and

tort reform in your list of laws in favor of greater repression for the inevitable nosedive. I use to think that the current administration and its continual refusal to see the degradation their laws and policies have caused in our economy as a mistake of fools. I've now come to realize it is a poorly organized plan. It only appears foolish if you think they have the best interest of the United States in mind when making their decisions.

[Jazzgirl]

11. Now Wolfowitz's being named to head the World Bank

makes sense. Yup...biggest Ponzi scheme ever. I don't know but one other person that understand whats happening...besides all of you on DU!

[enid602]

15. bushco

Whitney does not mention the OTHER reason reason for Buscho's tsunami. Once our creditor's bring us back into line, we'll have to cut spending drastically. Given this administruction's proven ability to fabricate terror, no doubt all government taxes will go to defense. The sheeple will (for the most part) be complacent, for fear of losing what little they have left. Munificent churches will pick up the slack created by the vacuum in social services. Enter the Mullahs; welcome to Tehran!

[bvar22]

16. The thing that really pisses me off....

...is that the people MOST RESPONSIBLE for the collapse will be able to escape to prepared secure enclaves of the very elite globally ultra rich where they will lives of luxury beyond the fantasies of kings.

[Jose Diablo]

60. I don't think it would be wise for the elite to hunker down in well

defended enclave.

If what is envisioned on this thread happens, which it could play out that way, then it is a simple matter to just launch a ICBM or even a cruse missile to that enclave and all of the elite would become radioactive dust.

I think what is a more plausible plan would be to maintain their position here by using deceit and the corrupted, bought media. Minimize the social upheaval and slowly strangle the fight by keeping everything so disorganized, more or less a disorganized mob, somewhat localized and uncoordinated.

In this way a general die-off brings the number of people down to a manageable number. A number easily controlled by a mercenary army. This form of governance resembles pre-western contact China; a very small 'royalty', somewhat larger imperial army, a bureaucracy under that and then a large very poor working class (kept at a barely subsistence living).

But if what I say here is indeed the elite's plan, how could it be stopped?

I think the key to this is the military. I do not share with many on this board their disdain for a very American institution refereed to as 'vigilantes'. In a very real sense, there is little difference between 'vigilantes' and a civilian military. It is all about adherence to a code of ethics. This is what separates a 'mob' from an organized force.

We have seen in these last 30 years the rise of what is called the "professional" army. This is new to the USA and should have been resisted. We seldom hear of this as another 'check and balance' to our government, but traditionally it has been there until just recently. It is not clear to me if our "professional" army places the constitution first, before direct orders from above. Are they Americans first, then soldiers, or is it the other way around?

I prefer a civilian military, because I know they really do not want to be there. They would rather be home, with their families. It is not hard to turn a "professional" army into an army of mercenaries (imperial army). Our founders had a deep hatred of mercenaries, thats why they wanted a civilian military.

Who's idea was it to form a "professional" army? And why have we had a 'standing' army for the last 60+ years? Thats the key I think to identifying how these people got control.

In the end, it is all about force. We may not like it. We prefer to think people do the 'right' thing as a general rule. Truth is though, by and large, people do what they can get away with and in this world, force is what it is all about.

I would recommend the reestablishment of civilian military with a code of ethic based on the constitution and these forces be under leadership locally, but be willing to merge and oppose the rising dictatorship centering in the federal government. A federal government that has disavowed adherence to the principles outlined in the constitution and is thus, illegal and immoral.

The usurpers will not voluntarily return from their illegal positions. It will take force, I am sorry to say. But a revolution in the sense of a out of control mob will only place these usurpers in more control and result in needless death. The usurpers need to see, that what they want to do, will not be allowed to happen, because the people will not let them.

First, peacefull civil disobedience, at the same time organizing local civilian militaries. Then as the the government refuses to follow law and suppresses protests, then take it to the next level, then the next, until the usurpers are driven from power and dealt with in a system of law and otherwise dispossed of.

And finally, rebalance the government back to a stable system based on law and then we move on, dig our way out of the hole these bums have dug our country into.

[earth mom]

19. It all ties in together...we are so screwed! Keep this thread kicked!

Reading this makes me want to cry for days! I knew these bastards were evil but this goes beyond even my worst fears.

Anyone got a good link or two to more info on what went down with Argentina? What in the hell should we all be doing to be prepared? Should DH and I sell the house and pay cash for some land in another country with what little equity we may have before all hell breaks loose...?!

OMG-I am simply freaking out over this right now.... :cry:

[ladjf]

22. It's obvious to me that there are millions of Americas like you

folks here on DU that know most of what is happening. The question is how many more will it take to reach a tipping point of resistance? And what would be the nature of resistance that is strong enough to bring down the thugs in power?

[Boomer]

35. Stay out of debt

I've liquidated enough of my savings to pay off my mortgage and I don't wrack up anything more on a credit card than I can afford to pay off within a month or two.

Meanwhile, we've spent a few years building up a vegetable garden and learning how to grow food. It's NOT a skill you can pick up overnight, so start now to provide a little buffer to your food budget.

Stock up on staples. We have a six month supply of rice, beans, meat, canned vegetables, fruits, flour, etc etc in the pantry. We'll be ready for temporary food shortages or high spikes in certain goods when production or distribution is disrupted.

When the collapse comes, my monthly living expenses will be as low as possible without actually ending up on the street.

[specimenfred1984]

24. There are Several Things the U.S. Can Do...

but the last time I posted them, a writer from another website cussed me out.

That drives home the point that most Americans are NOT as open-minded as they think and that we will have to suffer as a country before real thinking occurs which will lead to real solutions.

[NEOBuckeye]

28. They won't have a choice.

Sometimes, reality just shows up and coldcocks you in the face.

Resistance, at that point, is futile.

[BamaBecky]

25. Watch them blame the whole "mess" on Americans who can't handle

credit.

[chlamor]

31. What will you eat?

Pay attention to the serious nature of the situation. Examine the poster child of neo-liberal economics, Argentina, and see how that is relevant to the US. Do something about it. Get involved with local food groups. Our industrial agriculture system is collapsing in many ways, transportation being the least of it. The brown fields are growing in number. Look into how you can grow food even in urban areas. It is your birthright to grow food on land. Take back your rightful claim. This is not Y2K abstractions. This will be/is a long grinding decay. To think it must be a 'collapse', though it could be, is a mistake which may delay action.


The Cuba Diet: What will you be eating when the revolution comes?

by Bill McKibben

Does the Cuban experiment mean anything for the rest of the world? An agronomist would call the country's farming "low input", the reverse of the Green Revolution model, with its reliance on irrigation, oil, and chemistry. If we're running out of water in lots of places (the water table beneath China and India's grain-growing plains is reportedly dropping by meters every year), and if the oil and natural gas used to make fertilizer and run our megafarms are changing the climate (or running out), and if the pesticides are poisoning farmers and killing other organisms, and if everything at the Stop & Shop has traveled across a continent to get there and tastes pretty much like crap, might there be some real future for low-input farming for the rest of us? Or are its yields simply too low? Would we all starve without the supermarket and the corporate farm?

It's not a question academics have devoted a great deal of attention to - who would pay to sponsor the research? ....

And what about the heartlands of industrial agriculture, the US plains, for instance? "So much depends on how you measure efficiency", Pretty said. "You don't get something for nothing". Cheap fertilizer and pesticide displace more expensive labor and knowledge - that's why 219 American farms have gone under every day for the last fifty years and yet we're producing ever more grain and a loaf of bread might as well be free. On the other hand, there are those bereft Midwest counties. And the plumes of pesticide poison spreading through groundwater. And the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico into which the tide of nitrogen washes each planting season. And the cloud of carbon dioxide that puffs out from the top of the fertilizer factories. If you took those things seriously, you might decide that having one percent of your population farming was not such a wondrous feat after all.

The American model of agriculture is pretty much what people mean when they talk about the Green Revolution: high-yielding crop varieties, planted in large monocultures, bathed in the nurturing flow of petrochemicals, often supported by government subsidy, designed to offer low-priced food in sufficient quantity to feed billions. Despite its friendly moniker, many environmentalists and development activists around the planet have grown to despair about everything the Green Revolution stands for. Like Pretty, they propose a lowercase greener counterrevolution: endlessly diverse, employing the insights of ecology instead of the brute force of chemistry, designed to feed people but also keep them on the land. And they have some allies even in the rich countries - that's who fills the stalls at the farmers' markets blooming across North America. ....

In so doing they have created what may be the world's largest working model of a semi-sustainable agriculture, one that doesn't rely nearly as heavily as the rest of the world does on oil, on chemicals, on shipping vast quantities of food back and forth. They import some of their food from abroad - a certain amount of rice from Vietnam, even some apples and beef and such from the United States. But mostly they grow their own, and with less ecological disruption than in most places. In recent years organic farmers have visited the island in increasing numbers and celebrated its accomplishment. ....
http://www.energybulletin.net/5225.html

[gordianot]

34. We kept the family farm.

My son and I have prepared for the last two years and will eat well. We can also defend what we have.

[Boomer]

37. That's the one chink in my survival plan

>> We can also defend what we have. <<

My partner and I have a vegetable garden and a six-month supply of food in our pantry. But unless we can hang on to it, we won't be able to last that long.

We've seriously discussed getting a gun, but are reluctant to do so. We're too old to live in Mad Max world, and as a childless couple we have little to contribute to the species' future if everyone is scrambling that hard to survive.

I'm not sure I want sheer survival enough to fight tooth and nail against starving hordes.

[gordianot]

39. I doubt there will be hoards unless you are in the country.

Forget about a Mad Max world it comes to that we are all screwed. That is survival of the fittest, I will lose. My son and daughter have a chance, neither will be pushovers.

Guns in themselves are not a bad idea, but do not invest too much on that. If you must get a gun get some instruction. Your standard baseball bat should discourage the average looter.

At some point the Government will come to its senses. I am convinced that anarchy will be short term. A new FDR will emerge.

[Boomer]

42. We're secure enough...

...for a house in the middle of a small city.

Unlike most of the houses on our block, we don't have a front porch or a door facing the street. I've always missed that feature, but it does provide a little more sense of privacy and security.

The house also has a series of wrought iron fences and gates. Nothing that can't be scaled easily enough, but it still makes us look like less of a target than other houses.

And most importantly, we have dogs. They're not Rottweilers, and they won't tear out anyone's throat, but they are very territorial and alert to any sounds on the street. They let us know if they hear someone just walking by on the sidewalk and go ballistic the minute the front gate squeaks. In fact, we've deliberately NOT oiled the front gate because we want to know when it opens.

[solinvictus]

69. Get the gun...

Otherwise, all your preparations will be for naught if you're faced with an armed ( or even unarmed ) assailant. At least get a pump shotgun or a .22 rifle, either of those options are better than nothing.

[chlamor]

38. Well Done

I hope more folks learn to grow their own or get with others and learn. It is peaceful and the fruitions of ones labor being so direct is deeply rewarding.

Save Seeds?

Seed to Seed -Suzanne Answorth

www.highmowingseeds.com - Good info here

[gordianot]

40. We have a conservation land management plan.

We have also returned to native seeds and grasses with the help of State Conservation. There is also some pasture available. The farm sets on a meander of a river so we have access to fish as well as wild game. We rent the remaining pasture.

[chlamor]

41. That is magnificent

I saw you are from MO. I used to live in St. Louis, family still does. Know every nook and cranny of the state except NW corner. Went to NEMO for a year. have you been down to Greer spring on Rte 19. One of the largest cold water springs in the state. And then there is Mammoth spring. Man, I love the southern part of Missouri. Used to float and fish on those rivers.Eleven point is a wild and scenic river still protected. Brings back fond memories. Have a brother who has land on Lake Norfork in Ark. near Mo border.
Would be interested in hearing more about the land. There is also a great seed saving outfit in SW Mo whose name escapes me at the moment. It's near where several Mennonite communities are.

[unkachuck]

49. if we survive the economic tsunami....

....and slide into power in '06 and '08, what are we going to do? Do we want to spend the next two generations cleaning up this 3 trillion dollar capitalist designed mess? That's what they want us to do, that's why they set into motion deficits....to destroy governmental/social institutions here and around the world. And we will pay for the 'clean-up' while being indentured to them and their corporations?....is that ok with you?....

....what do you want to do about it? Should the federal government default on everything except our social obligations and start anew? Should we use the military to hunt down global capitalists and recover the Public-Wealth? Should we use the military to enforce global trade and economic activities to benefit the people?....

....should we stop being financially raped by the medical, pharmecutical, energy and military industries and have the federal government take over these national responsiblities to save money?

....what do you want to do?....one thing is for certain, the fascist right under bush and delay, has given us the blueprint on how to do this....

[enid602]

53. capitalism?

Crooks who steal from the the public coffers and divert all funds to the military are hardly capitalists. The current bunch are neither capitalists nor conservative. Capitalism assumes competition and a small, unintrusive government which encourages investment, jobs and incomes. Conservative used to mean fiscal conservatism.

[rman]

56. The current bunch is doing a great job selling their robery as capitalism

Also this didn't just change over night with their recent power grab.
Take from the poor and give to the rich isn't exactly new nor are the big mergers (more monopoly, less competition), and in spite of the claims it hasn't been trickeling down.

[mistertrickster]

50. Actually, our indebtness is historically high in dollar terms, but not

that high as a percentage of GDP.

No way are we Argentina.

I need more than a blogger with a suitcase of suspicion to believe this latest conspiracy theory.

That Bush and Co. are venal and grasping and get all they can without regard for the good of the country is obvious.

But that they would deliberately bankrupt the US to put it in thrall of the IMF/World Bank etc. just sounds too clever by half.

I'm not buying it until I can see more evidence than mere supposition.

[enid602]

54. debt

Look at the rate of increase in our public debt; from $5T to almost $8T in only four years.
As for Argentina, their currency collapsed once their trade deficit amounted to an unheard of 4% of their GDP. Ours now stands at 6%. The straw that broke Argentina's back was their then-government's announcement that it would privatize their version of social security. Of course, we're a super-power, and cannot be compared to a developing country like Argentina. That is, not until we too are in that category.

[whistle]

58. Public federal debt to the penny is 67.7% of annual GDP ....

The Debt To the Penny
Current Amount

04/07/2005 $7,788,009,463,759.88



Prior Fiscal
Years

09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16
09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/29/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 $5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 $5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 $5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 $4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 $4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 $4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 $4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 $3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 $3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 $2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 $2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 $2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 $2,125,302,616,658.42

12/31/1985 $1,945,941,616,459.88
12/31/1984 $1,662,966,000,000.00 *
12/31/1983 $1,410,702,000,000.00 *
12/31/1982 $1,197,073,000,000.00 *
12/31/1981 $1,028,729,000,000.00 *
12/31/1980 $ 930,210,000,000.00



SOURCE: BUREAU OF THE PUBLIC DEBT


I did see someplace that total debt for U.S. businesss, corporations and indivisuals plus all public state and local debt currently is an all time high of over $36 trillion which is over three times the total GDP.

[whistle]

59. Here it is for total debt for Americans over $40 trillion.....

...which is $136,347 for every man woman and child in America. Looks like the best job in the future will be debt collectors jobs

<snip>

BOTTOM-LINE - - DEBT SUMMARY TABLE
AMERICA'S TOTAL DEBT
- $40 Trillion -
- add another $44 trillion for contingent Social Security/Medicare -
(updated March 2005)
From our data we have identified Federal Government Debt Report debt of $7.6 Trillion, the State & Local Government Report debt of $1.7 Trillion, plus $30.8 Trillion private (household, business and financial sector) debt from America's Total Debt Report.

These sum to $40 Trillion, or $136,347 per capita. This sum does not include the federal government's un-funded contingent liabilities for social security/Medicare estimated at $44 trillion, plus additional amounts for unknown (?) contingencies listed below.)

The following table summarizes Total Debt in America

DEBT TYPE
DEBT AMOUNT
Debt Per Child
(per capita)

GOVERNMENT SECTOR DEBT:

Federal Government Sector debt - a record high
(Treasury data and Federal Government Debt Report, (includes $1.9 trillion federal govt. owes foreigners, plus $2.5 trillion debt owed U.S. domestic public, plus the $3.2 trillion surplus siphoned from and owed to trust funds) $7.6 Trillion $25,845
State & Local Government Sector debt - a record high
(State & Local Government Spending Report) $1.7 Trillion $ 5,699
Un-funded Social Security contingent liabilities estimated looking forward * $7 Trillion $23,818
Un-funded Medicare contingent liabilities, estimated * $37 Trillion $125,893
Un-funded federal employee pension and medical contingent liabilities (incl. Postal service) ? no estimate
?

Un-funded state & local government employee pension & medical contingent liabilities ? no estimate
?

Other off-budget Federal Govt. borrowings* ?
?

SUM above Government Debt
$53.3 Trillion + ?
$181,255 +?

PRIVATE SECTOR DEBT:

(see the America's Total Debt Report)
Household Sector debt - soaring record high $10.3 Trillion $34,923
Business Sector debt - record high $ 7.8 Trillion $26,695
Financial Sector debt (domestic) - explosive record high $ 11.4 Trillion $40,000
Other (extra foreign debt in addition to such included in numbers above sectors) $ 0.7 Trillion $ 2,432
Un-funded business sector employee pension & medical contingent liabilities ?
?

Impact trillions of dollars of derivatives on business & financial sector debt ?
?

SUM above Private Debt
$30.8 Trillion + ? $105,003 + ?
- -
- - - - - - - -
SUM Government + Private Debt (including Contingent liability items*)
$84.1 Trillion +? $286,258 +?
SUM Government + Private Debt (excluding contingent liability items*)
$40.1 Trillion $136,479 per person
* for discussion some of above government items, see the Grandfather Social Security Report, the America's Total Debt Report and Trust Fund Report. (Debt


<link> http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/debt-nat-a.htm

[mistertrickster]

64. Begging your pardon, but you and the previous poster have vastly

different statistics. 6 percent of GDP is what I always hear too.

Why are you off by a factor of ten?

[whistle]

66. The federal deficit is probably the 6% number.......

...what I'm talking about is total accumulated debt owed by the federal government and also the other public and private debt.

Here is the Bush Administrations bullshit line about deficits: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/overview.html


2004-05 Federal Budget Deficit: $ -690,000,000,000.00
2004-05 Gross Domestic Product: $11,500,000,000,000.00

That indeed is about 6.0% of GDP.

However, the total national debt (all of the accumulated federal deficits totaled together is:

Federal National Debt 04/07/2005: $7,788,009,463,759.88
2004-05 Gross Domestic Product.: $11,500,000,000,000.00

That is roughly 67.7% and you see if the debt holders that the government owes that money to were to "call the debt obligation" tomorrow, there would be a lot of scrambling to come up with the money to pay that off. Now add to that the outstanding obligations for all future social security and Medicare, plus all of the other public, corporate and personal debt that Americans owe, it's a whooping $40 trillion and expanding by the minute.

You can also see why Bush would prefer to stick it to the seniors and remove the social security and Medicare obligations because the large financial institutions would not like to have to take their future payments in SUV's that Detroit can't sell or depleted uranium weapons and the like. They would want hard cash and it would probably be Euros.

<on edit>

Actually, they would take all real assets, Manahatten Is., buildings, factories, inventories of goods, personal property, the clothes off our backs and the slave labor force that Bush and his neo-conservative pals are making out of all of us!!!

[mistertrickster]

68. You're right! Thanks for explaining that. The 6 percent is just this

year's deficit, but the 67 percent is the total national debt. Makes sense.

Wow! That puts it into perspective, doesn't it? No wonder BushCo is trying to renege on the social security benefits. He sees he can't pay them and continue to keep taxes on the rich low.

[chlamor]

57. kick

[BillZBubb]

62. Why is everyone so concerned?

Saint Ronnie told us "deficits don't matter" and the Apostle Dick just repeated it. The sheeple don't seem to mind one bit. What's a little debt when you can drive a Hummer?

Freedom isn't free you know. We have to borrow to pay for it.

[Rockholm]

63. True, and remember, Armageddon is coming.

[whistle]

67. And, it's all an illusion anyway, blink and it goes away.....

...ask and yee shall receive, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away!

[smirkymonkey]

70. Kick!

:kick: