The Minutemen are bigots and so is anyone who supports them (**PART 2**)

[Moderator]

Since the other thread had over 500 posts, and anyone with a dialup modem would be extremely frustrated if they tried to read the first part, here is a thread in which discussion of this topic can continue.

[tubbacheez]

1. (continued from previous) ..... thus proving all my points.

So there.

[entanglement]

2. In response to #537 by nothingshocksmeanymore

:toast: :toast:

[WilliamPitt]

3. A linkto the original would be helpful

[The Magistrate]

4. Here Is A Link To The Original Thread, My Friends

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3434922&mesg_id=3434922

And may the Lord have Mercy on anyone trying to load it....

[ncrainbowgrrl]

5. Thanks for providing the link.

:hi:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I Loaded It In Five Seconds...

eom

[Catherine Vincent]

126. The Magistrate, I blame you for letting that thread get that long.

You should know better than that. Didn't you learn anything from the wrinkle threads?:spank::-)

[Cleita]

6. Thanks.

I have dial-up and trying to download parts of the thread that has some good informaton is really getting frustrating.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Just to run down my basic points

Gilchrist is a mouthpiece. One of the operatives in this org, Chris Simcox has a history of racist behavior. Gilchrist actually defended white supremacists on Hannity the other day, Barnett has ties to Glenn Spencer, a known racist. If this organization were led by David Duke, no DU'er would defend it, but it is led by like minded people who are out to scapegoat Mexicans for America's job losses and economic problems.

It's one thing to say they aren't breaking any laws...fair enough..they aren't so far.

it's one thing to say they have a right to be there...so the fuck what? So does the KKK when THEY hold a rally, but I don't support them.

It's COMPLETELY another thing to be supportive of a group that was founded and propped up by racists. You support their efforts - you are a racist. End of story.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Amen, Sister!

:loveya:

DTH

[DoNotRefill]

131. So....

When the ACLU supported the Illinois Nazis, they became racists, too?

I'd like to think I'd defend David Duke's right to peacably assemble and his right to freedom of association, too. That wouldn't mean I LIKE him or his point of view.

[Pithlet]

8. Response to post 535

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3434922&mesg_id=3449017

The law matters more to you than it does to me? If you say so. I'm not sure about that.

They aren't singling out people who are breaking the law. They are harassing people they THINK are breaking the law, because they look Mexican. Because they aren't trained border patrol. It isn't their fault that it's mostly Mexicans crossing the border. But it IS their fault that they're approaching this issue in a bigoted way instead of relying on the law to enforce the borders. Border patrol aren't backed and aided by bigoted racist organizations, and they aren't just tromping around randomly or sitting in lawn chairs with guns while waving American and Confederate flags. Big difference. All these people are doing are making the area hostile to ALL people who look like Mexicans, NOT JUST Mexicans crossing the border. I don't know why you refuse to understand that point.

No. You aren't racist just because you hate rap music. So, you can feel a little bit better about that, even though that question was apropos of not much in this thread. But, whatever cheers you up.

[Commendatori]

9. I don't know why it bothers you so that

people don't buckle to your brand of logic. You've made repeated references to how disturbed you are that people don't see it your way.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time reiterating my points, you know them well. If what you've written above is how you see things, then that's that. I don't see it that way. I see nothing that indicates that this is being done in a "bigoted" way, but have said that if I ever do, or if I ever see them breaking the law, I'd be more inclined to see it your way. Apparently, that's not good enough for you - you're "disturbed" that I and anyone who agrees with me won't do it NOW.

Then in your post 530, you write as if I'm trying to stifle your views or as if you think I care if you agree: "If you're tired of being told that, then maybe you should either a)Rethink your position instead of clinging to it desperately despite facts that prove you wrong, or b)Not espouse those views so openly. Because, I'm sorry, but there are a lot of people who find those views heartless and repugnant. That's a fact. And they have every right to express their views as you do. So, you're just going to have to live with the fact that people will voice their oposition to your views if you're going to continue to voice them. I, and they, are not going to go away or remain silent. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is."

Well, you don't have to apologize for being blunt - we're both adults. I have no problem living with the fact that people will voice opposition to my views - as evidence by the fact that I'm pro-gun and against illegal immigration but still choose to post here, much like the people who are pissed at Clinton, pissed at Kerry, think that Al Franken isn't that good, etc. If this were a place where everyone agreed, it would be boring as hell and I would never come here. When there are moderator posts advertised, it's made clear that varied views are actually desired.

As for "repugnant" and "heartless," think what you will, but since we're being honest your referring to me as that is not unlike the "if you don't support the war, you don't support the troops" and "if you're not for the Patriot Act, you're against our children and hate America" mantra that I hear all the time.

I do know that billions are being spent on illegals, hospitals are being closed, and that this money could be put into programs for people here legally. You can cite the poverty of these people all you like, and you have repeatedly, but given that resources are always going to be limited when you've got some prick in the White House giving tax cuts to his rich buddies, maybe you should ask yourself where those resources should go.

Think me as repugnant as you like, but illegals take food out of mouths of people here legally, and I would rather let a thousand illegals (of any race, creed, color, age or sex, not just Mexicans - in case you were going to go down that road) starve than see one single mother with kids here legally go hungry. If opportunity is so much better here than it is in Mexico (and it is, at least for now), registering with the INS isn't that much to ask. If you've ever filled out a tax return or stood in line at the DMV, you know that there's no guarantee of a life free from paperwork, BS and hassle.

As it stands, I have seen nothing illegal or bigoted from the Minutemen, and I've said that when I do I'd have a different take. Sorry if my refusal to just throw up my hands and say "gosh yes, you're right" is "disturbing" to you, but when I see people here legally going hungry because Bush's pals need more money, I think the Minutemen are, indirectly or otherwise, doing more for the downtrodden here than the entire Bush administration combined. So next time you see someone here legally having a hard time, ask yourself whether it's okay that resources that could help him or her are being spent on health care for illegals.

And, unlike you, I don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

14. "I would rather let a thousand illegals starve than see one single mother

with kids here legally go hungry."

That is absolutely abhorrent. Would you rather see 1000 Iraqi's die than see one American soldier die?

[Commendatori]

15. In answer to this,

if they had started the war, I'd probably feel that way, yes. Not at present. But until all people here legally are taken care of by our currently indifferent government, I cannot work up a drop of sympathy for people here illegally.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

17. So man made borders mean more than life does.

Your posts are riddled with inaccuracies and you arrive at a conclusion that is repulsive.

[Commendatori]

18. You can look at it that way, or

you can look at it that not everyone has been done right by the government, and while tax cuts are being given to the rich people coming here illegally and demanding benefits that people here legally don't get is particularly galling to some, including me.

Registering with the INS in exchange for benefits isn't too much to ask. If someone can't be bothered to do it, I can't be bothered to worry about that person being fed.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

20. "demanding benefits" ? You think illegals "demand benefits"?

What don't you understand about what they are trying to accomplish? They live in substandared conditions and send money back to their families. Most don't get resources because they are afraid of INS because INS will DEPORT them.

[Commendatori]

28. I understand that their misfortune

does not automatically mean obligation on the part of taxpayers. I'll pay attention to their plight when all people here legally are taken care of the way they should be, and not a moment before.

[Commendatori]

19. On your edit

"Your posts are riddled with inaccuracies..."

I'm supposed to take that as gospel?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

22. Do you have any links at all?

Any that support your assertion of illegals living high on the hog here in the U.S. with free healthcare?

[Commendatori]

29. You say

that my posts are riddled with inaccuracies, and then you ask ME for a link? If you can debunk anything I've said, the ball's in YOUR court.

Are you denying that illegals are getting health care they're not paying for and that health care systems (especially in southern states) are suffering under the additional strain?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

31. No, you made the assertion in the first place. You provided no proof.

You're damned right I'm asking for a link. A link that DOESN'T go right to some RW nutjob website.

[Commendatori]

44. Sure, since you can't.

I believe that you'll write off anything that doesn't agree with you as "right wing nutjob," especially since you seem to be the only person in the country that doesn't know the strain that illegals put on hospitals.

I feel that it should be you providing links if you have anything you can debunk me with, but since you're not up to it, see if any of the following suit your needs (I'm hoping you can't write off all 71,900 hits as "nutjob" sites). If not, YOU provide a link showing me that it DOESN'T happen, since the value of discussing things with someone who seems to be denying the problem is sinking to the level to my interest in participating it such a discussion:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=arizona+new+mexico+california+illegal+alien+health+care&btnG=Search

If it doesn't bother you that we're being forced to pick up the tab for health care and education of illegals while Bush takes money out of Medicare, Medicaid and education budgets for people here legally,
more power to you. It bothers the hell out of me.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

52. "World Net Daily" ? And you even have "Free Republic"

Yes, I am a radical for considering those to be RW nutjob sites. :eyes:
Did you even bother to click on the links? They link to sites that have "Viva la Reagan Revolution" "NAACP stoops even lower" One says they oppose the "radical feminists".

LOL. That is CLASSIC!

I'll find you some links, but Im on my way out.


lol...World Net Daily...you crack me up.

[Commendatori]

55. It's a link to a Google search, and like I thought,

you'd write off everything as "right wing nutjob." I agree that World Net Daily is a whacked site, but the search has over 70,000 hits. I don't control which order Google brings them up.

Besides, you're the only person I've ever communicated with that needed proof of what everyone else knows. You crack me up too, so it looks like we're even.

[TX-RAT]

58. What did you expect Blue?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

60. Good question. You post a link to a bunch of RW sites (that consider

themselves to be RW sites)that you haven't even read and you get laughed off. That's just crazy.

[Commendatori]

63. There's over 70,000 sites there, and not all of them

are sponsored by World Net Daily.

I posted a link to a search, which summed up the most effort I was willing to make. If you think that illegals aren't having health care being paid for by people here legally, what's the point in our talking?

[TX-RAT]

67. Your answer was predictable.

He pointed you to Google, then you labeled it as RW. Are you saying Google is a RW site?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

77. The first 10 sites, IE, the most relevent are all right wing sites save 1

No, Google is not RW, but the topic, the belief that illegal aliens are so harmful for sucking so much out of healthcare is a RW talking point.

[Commendatori]

66. What I didn't expect was anyone actually needing proof that

illegals are putting a strain on health care, especially in southern states. Silly me for not contacting my many friends at Google and having them list sites on an order that would suit Quark.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

59. "what everyone else knows" Just like they "know" Iraq has WMDs?

What people commonly believe isn't necessarily the truth.


http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=1147

[Commendatori]

65. I never said or believed that Iraq had WMDs, so do me a favor

and try to come up with a relevant example.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

79. Ok. How about when everyone "knew" the Chinese were taking over

or when everyone "knew" the Irish were taking over? Or when everyone "knew" Japanese internment camps were a good idea.

[Commendatori]

80. ??

I'm still wondering what your point is. Are you denying that illegal aliens are putting a strain on or health care system?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

82. Yeah. I am. It's just another misdirection so people blame Illegals for

something that is the fault of the government.

Do illegals sometimes use health care? Yes. But does it happen as often as people claim? No.

[Commendatori]

85. If that's what you think,

then let's save ourselves some time and agree to disagree. There is absolutely no point to this.

Ignore my repetition of the question in the other part of this thread.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

91. You have no proof though, and I do.

Check below.

[Commendatori]

93. Where? Post number, please.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

94. This is from the second pair of google links you posted.

Funnily enough, a lot of THOSE links say that illegals avoid healthcare, even for their citizen children for fear of being reported based on studies, not just hatred.

http://www.chcf.org/documents/insurance/HAjulaug2000Ber...

[TX-RAT]

96. Your link is as dead as your arguments.

[Pithlet]

127. Yeah. Arguments consisting of more than one sentence.

Dead dead dead.

[TX-RAT]

128. I tell ya what Pithlet.

You prove that one law was broken and I'll stop posting on this thread, otherwise your wasting our time.

Sorry i don't need more than one sentence to have a discussion with you. I try to keep it simple for you.

[Pithlet]

129. I don't have to prove a law was broken

I don't know why you insist that I have to. Why?

Athough I'm starting to feel like a broken record. One doesn't have to break a law to be a bigot. In fact, most bigots I've known personally never broke one beyond perhaps a traffic ticket.

[cidliz2004]

90. Your arguing against pure emotion lacking any objective logic

It is like arguing with some Republicans, name calling is more the accepted way of debating this issue than presenting pure logic -

uphold laws vs. break them

don't like the laws then change the laws

[Pithlet]

137. Ojbective logic?

You mean, like the preferring a group of people starve to death bit the other poster used? That objective logic? What's objective about that? What is objective about baseless fears scapegoated onto one group of people?

Yeah. The cold hard logic that refuses to see that bigoted activity doesn't have to be illegal. That steely, impenetrable argument of "It isn't against the law, so it's okay". Bring more of that cold hard logic, on. Us emotional freaks who don't think allowing people to starve to death in our nation is fine and dandy, we won't be able to handle it :scared:

Common decency and humanity is way too emotional for some. That is obvious.

[cidliz2004]

138. How many people in the world are starving to death?

Why don't you worry about feeding all of them?

You know when you fly somewhere and they do the safety talk right as you are heading to the runway? You know how they talk about the oxygen masks and how they should be used? "First put it on yourself, before you put it on the passenger next to you?" What that means is that if you suffocate, you won't be able to give the oxygen mask to the person next to you. Does that make ANY sense to you?

Many Americans have been working their asses off all of their lives and have been paying taxes and been TRYING to work towards a happy healthy retirement. The taxes that I have been paying I have a right to protect with the laws of this country. If I choose to give to a charity, then I will, by my choice. If my country gives aid to countries with needy people, then fine, good it is a decision the "we the people have made". When people flock to this country and enter illegally, work illegally, get free hospital care and use taxes that I contributed towards, I have a right to worry about MY future. AS it is, we won't be able to afford staying in our home, we won't be able to afford medical insurance unless my husband wants to work until he dies so that we can keep our medical insurance. My grandparents came into this country legally. They waited THEIR TURN. What sense does it make to overfill an elevator in a burning building where only so many will survive? Stuff the elevators so that they fail and everybody dies, right? There are charities, foreign aid.... That is what that is for to help the needy in foreign countries.

Logic that is what you people for this are lacking. No one is saying to starve anybody, help their economy, help them with foreign aid - Don't just open the floodgates and ignore the laws in place just because there are starving people. There are starving people all over the world. We can do more collectively with allies than just trying to do it ourselves.

Besides, we have laws about entering into this country, it is called IMMIGRATION that is what aliens are supposed to abide by, that is what we are supposed to respect. Once again, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE LAWS THEN CHANGE THEM.

You are pure emotion and bleeding heart which in the end will sink everyone.

[Pithlet]

139. Oh, please.

I was referring to the heartwarming phrase the poster you're defending as objective, made. You know that. Don't go all "care about all the rest of the starving people" on me. I'm not the one who made a cruel and heartless remark. If you want to defend that (while calling it "objective." Snerk.), then at least refrain from judging MY morality.

No one is saying to open the floodgates. I don't know why you're insisting we are. If you want to talk about cold hard logic, and leave the emotion out of it, then let's. Let's insist they "wait their turn." After all, I'm not necessarily for completely open borders, despite whatever knee jerk assumption about my views you may make. How does that make their drain on our resources that you people making the argument love to rant about any less? Is a person who entered our country legally going to eat less, or require less resources. No. In fact, they will require more, because they will be legally entitled to everything we are. They won't be afraid to go to the hospital and get deported, for example. How's that for non-emotional and objective? Because I don't believe for one bit that you, and the other poster, are basing your opinion on anything remotely resembling objectivity. DU rules prevent me from saying what I really think they are.

Yeah, it's emotional bleeding heart crap sinking us all. Check the little part of your web browser at the top and look at the site you're at now. I know. The internets are confusing.

[cidliz2004]

146. The truth hurts doesn't it? Starving people were brought in by you and

yours. Private Charities and Foreign Aide. Talk to the communities that these people first settle into. Talk to them about the schools systems, the hospitals, the medical clinics, the housing, the jobs that high school kids could have gotten to earn money for college. Federally they may not have as much of an impact, but state and local Governments are getting crushed by them.


We simply wish to respect the laws and you simply don't respect the laws.


We say, if you don't like the laws then change them.

You say, we don't like the laws therefore, we don't have to abide by them. People that are trying to help enforce the laws and that abide by laws are bigots.......

Sure help these people in THEIR country, where they can stay with family and the dollar that they get from us goes much much further. Why do you refuse to look at that SOLUTION with more scrutiny and try to figure out how it can be more beneficially spent.

Instead all that I see from the "attackers" of the minutemen is name calling and total condemnation. Why? There are other solutions and "allowing" people to illegally enter this country and therefore being forced to live like fugitives is a O.K. with you all (and with Bush and his cronies) - wonderful company you keep. Instead of clear OBJECTIVE reasoning to this problem, lets continue the knee jerk reaction of name calling. Makes arguing and the situation so much easier to deal with.

Go ahead and organize and do Bush's work for him. Condemn the Minutemen INSTEAD of allowing the issue to become so focused on that laws will change and MAYBE just MAYBE some fair solutions will be found.

MAYBE even some questions will be answered. Like how much aid is going to Mexico and maybe more should go. And why aren't our borders being protected by paid Government workers by the money that the Government has to fund our "Homeland Security". More questions, why are the immigration laws not being reviewed if unfair? What type of relationship do we really have with Fox and how much cooperation do we have with Fox on this issue? Is the foreign aid being sent to Mexico being spent wisely? Are there more transitory solutions at the borders that could be instituted. Like maybe food depots and medical clinics and job training funded by US and Mexico for these people. NO, lets just shoot our mouths off and criticize the SYMPTOM (many of the people that live in the border towns that are being crushed by the weight of responsibility of the illegals coming to their towns and using their tax dollars and sucking their local revenues dry) to a much larger issue. How unproductive.

Yeah, call me foolish for worrying about my future retirement as well, foolish foolish me.

[Pithlet]

149. It's the law! It's the law! *sqawk, flapping wings*

First off, you cannot question MY commitment to starving people if YOU are going to support someone who made such a horrific statement.

Second of all. I'm not talking about any laws. No support for laws. No opinion about any laws. My whole point has been that the Minutemen are bigots. And -I'm going to bold this, because I've typed it so many times I have carpel tunnel syndrome from that statement alone - A person can be bigoted, and well within the law

What the hell, I'll bold the next one, too. I will not blame someone for breaking a law if they're doing it for survival. If following the law means my kids are going to starve, fuck the law. And anyone who claims they'd do otherwise is lying. I'm not saying I think the law should be revoked. But, I'm not going to be all holier than thou and place judgment on someone for breaking a law out of necessity. No matter who did it. Those of you who keep sanctimoniously screeching "It's the law!!!!! have never faced watching your own starve. If I had a million bucks, I'd bet on that, and win.

[cidliz2004]

151. Again, emotion, name calling - not knowledge not solutions

But, I'm not going to be all holier than thou and place judgment on someone for breaking a law out of necessity. No matter who did it. Those of you who keep sanctimoniously screeching "It's the law!!!!! have never faced watching your own starve. If I had a million bucks, I'd bet on that, and win.

But you are acting holier than thou by calling people that you don't know bigots. The OP called everybody that supported the Minutemen - "bigots" That isn't fair. That isn't accurate, And like I said before - you are just reacting out of emotion and you are name calling.

People steal food to survive. People steal gas to go to work to survive. Are you against people for arresting thieves in grocery stores and gas stations? Women don't have money to clothe their children, so they steal clothing, do they deserve to be thrown in jail? Where does it stop? Where does it begin? If I were you, I wouldn't bet anymore, because I will tell you PERSONALLY that yes, I've gone hungry. Not for a long period of time, but I did. I went without a roof over my head as well. So don't make bets about who has or hasn't watched their loved ones go without food and/or shelter because like so many others you are just talking out of your ass with emotion and not any knowledge.

[Pithlet]

154. I'm not talking about solutions

I'm talking about heartless cruel posts.

So, now I'm against arresting people for stealing? You truly don't even get what I'm saying. You're only capable of viewing things in black and white. Where does it stop? I don't know. Because I'm not talking about repealing or ignoring laws, or not arresting people. I'm talking about empathy and compassion. Oops, those are emotions! If you want to go ahead and place all crimes, all law breaking actions, on an even plane ethically and morally, then go ahead. If you want to equate crossing a border to save a babies life with robbing a bank and shooting someone, go ahead. But, doing so does NOT make you more objective. It makes you something else entirely.

It is fair to call anyone who supports a bigot's actions a bigot. It is absolutely fair.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. Also, most illegals are concentrated in blue states. So I doubt

Southern states are affected more than blue states are.

[Commendatori]

48. I doubt that can be proved either way, but

my hunch is that it's a pretty close call either way - and if so, the problem is worse than most people think, because the southern states are getting soaked.

[Auntie Bush]

50. Got a link for that fact?

[Commendatori]

61. Already provided

a link to a Google search. The fact that the southern states are getting pounded isn't much of a secret, so I thought I'd let Quark search through and pick out one that suits his or her needs.

Needless to say, a couple were singled out as being right wing sites, which was justified but also apparently means that the other 70,000+ are fiction, too :sarcasm: .

[SemiCharmedQuark]

76. Ok, let's go through the sites you provided together, shall we?

Right in the order they are hits.

1. The American Resistance Foundation:

"Watch a politician listen to organizations like AARP. Witness the National Council of La Raza and MALDEF. It is time for American citizens to "come out of the shadows" and do what is necessary to keep the country that we love. Our inaction or delay will surely result in our, and our children's way of life and national sovereignty being forfeit. There is no where else to go.That there are powers at work to trade our way of life for political gain cannot be denied.The racist forces (link to NCLR) that would take our country have made their intentions clear. We must do the same."


2. EagleForum.org:

Eagle Forum exposes the radical feminists
We honor the institution of marriage and the role of the fulltime homemaker. Eagle Forum successfully led the ten-year battle to defeat the misnamed Equal Rights Amendment with its hidden agenda of tax-funded abortions and same-sex marriages.

3. WorldNetDaily
4. SFGate.com

This site is fine, but look what it says:

But the question of whether illegal immigrants hurt the state's finances is hotly contested. Though the workers do use some public services, such as hospitals, some academics point out that the workers also stimulate the economy with their labor and consumption of goods and services.

5. CAIR

1. Immigration Moratorium We supports immediate enactment of a 5-year immigration moratorium with an all-inclusive, firm cap of 100,000 immigrants (including refugees and asylees) per year.

2. No More Amnesties We oppose additional amnesties granting legal status or citizenship to illegal aliens. Amnesties reward illegal behavior while unnecessarily adding to population growth, driving unending chain migration, and encouraging illegal entry to the U.S.

6. www.frostywoodridge.com

Such organizations as League of United Latin Citizens (LULC) and National Council of La Raza (The Race) feed off the food chain by gaining more power, money and support of illegals. These cancerous organizations intend, in the case of La Raza, destruction of the United States. They have no concern for you as an American or what our country stands for. They don’t pretend peaceful co-existence with Americans. Several expect to bring California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas back into the grip of Mexico. Since 9.2 million illegal and legal immigrants from Mexico are already in the United States, at some point, yes, they could vote themselves into Mexico. Or, if they don’t, they would make it so unbearable to live in those states, that Americans would flee. Case in point, 800,000 Californians DID flee last year. Even so, that state is slated to add 20 million people in the next 30 years—mostly from the Third World.

7. issues-views.com

This just copies and pasts from #2

8. Same thing as #7

9. www.frontpagemagazine.com

"What defintes an anti-american leftist"
"celebrating the forgery that is Dan Rather"

10. And the grand poobah, this site links to Michelle Malkin!


1 good article out of 10. Hardly me picking on you for "a couple" of bad sites.

[Commendatori]

83. With only 70,000+ to go,

let's try using more "immigrant friendly" language for your benefit. I'll substitute "illegal alien" with...

1.) undocumented immigrant

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=arizona+new+mexico+california+undocumented+immigrant+health+care&btnG=Search

2.) undocumented worker

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=arizona+new+mexico+california+undocumented+worker+health+care&btnG=Search

...and you'll still get World Net Daily to pop up.

Edited to remove question which just got answered elsewhere in the thread...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

87. Hey! You proved me right! Thanks!

http://www.chcf.org/documents/insurance/HAjulaug2000BerkEtAl.pdf

[Commendatori]

98. Look at Exhibit 4

Aside from health care, look at all of the other services they get - and this was back in 1996 and 1997. All I've been saying is that I don't think social services should go to illegals. Not only did your site fail to impress me, but it actually opened more doors should I actually care to continue this, which in all honesty I don't. You believe what you do, and I disagree.

I give you 70,000+ links, you jump to exclude nine that you don't like and focus in on one that you think suits your needs. Forgive me for not being convinced. I'm sure that some of the nine you cut should have been, but if you give me 70,000 links under certain search terms I'm sure I can find a way to prove that a wombat led the American League in RBI in 1996 or 1997.

So we're down to this: If you think people who can't be bothered to register should get social services, more power to you. I don't. However, since you won't accept any source that doesn't agree with you, and since you really didn't even really pick one that does, let's leave it at this: I respect your right to your opinion, I just don't agree with you.

You can have the last word on this if you like.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

101. I will accept any valid source. The sources I rejected were blatantly

right wing and flat out biased. You can keep saying it again and again and again, but that won't make them any better sources.

[Pithlet]

120. Thank you

I gave up a long time ago. There seems to be no point. It's not discussion. It is debating with stubborn refusal to concede any valid arguments backed by fact, and an almost deliberate misreading of any point you make.

[Zhade]

123. Nice. Hope you look into the dying eyes of an 'illegal' child one day.

Your inhumanity is showing.

[DoNotRefill]

140. My inhumanity....

a while back, I had to look into the eyes of a 2 year old child. She wasn't an illegal, she wasn't dying. She was cute as a button, as all two year olds tend to be. She was upset because I was putting her daddy in jail. She was crying "what're you doing to my daddy?" and "where's my daddy?" over and over again, at the obvious prompting of her mother.

It REALLY made me feel bad.

Then I started thinking about it. Her daddy was going to jail because he broke the law. Her daddy was going to jail because he, in a fantastically stupid manner, put HER life at risk for absolutely NO reason. And her mommy had brought her out at 2 AM in the morning while leaving the rest of her kids at home, hoping to garner sympathy from me. I was terribly sad for the little girl. I was more angry than sad at her parents...who had already endangered her life once that evening, and who now were trying to USE her to get them out of trouble.

Does that make me inhuman?

If I had Godlike powers, I'd have "blanked" the child's mind and brought her home with me, so that she could live in an environment where children (like my 9 month old daughter) are nurtured and not endangered or USED for the benefits of the parents. Either that, or given her parents that actually LOOKED OUT for her welfare instead of trying to USE her.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

143. Illegals break the law BECAUSE they love their families.

Your example is completely different. Illegals don't WANT to come here. Their kids are starving because they can't get good jobs in Mexico. Imagine working as hard as you can and STILL having to watch your daughter go hungry. Wouldn't you risk it all to save her? Would the law matter to you as saw your kids search through piles of garbage for their dinner? Could you do nothing when your daughter screamed in the night because she was hungry and there was no food or because she was sick and there was no medicine?

These aren't people that robbed a bank or killed someone. They are people who are desperate to save their families. Can't you see that? Imagine that as your family starves to death and lives in squalor, you can literally SEE land where you could be earning 10 times what you currently earn. Many illegals leave their families behind to come here and send money back to their families. Those that do this aren't living like kings here in the U.S. In addition to lousy wages, sub standard working conditions and pathetic living conditions, they have to take all the hatred directed at them.

And if you can't see that because you can't get past "well, they broke the law", yeah, that does make you inhuman. You don't have to condone breaking the law to show a little understanding to some that do break the law.

How many times has DU had a "what will you do if the draft is reinstated" thread where parents have said that they will send their kids to Canada or Mexico or Europe? Nobody tells these people "Sorry, draft dodging is against the law. You're going to have to just sit at home and wait for them to come collect your son or daughter." Why don't people cling to the law as absolute then? Can you imagine how people would react if some RW morons with rifles patrolled the border looking for kids trying to get into Canada and escape the draft?

[Zhade]

150. Your situation is totally different.

So no, you're not inhuman.

[DoNotRefill]

152. DAMN....

I'll try harder.

:evilgrin:

[JohnnyCougar]

148. This is pathetic. It really is.

What qualifies someone for symapthy, then? They have to live within our borders?

[Pithlet]

153. Yeah

Babies born outside of the US don't matter. Who cares about them. Apparently, ones worth as a human being depends on where they were born geographically.

[Pithlet]

125. I'm glad you don't care

I'm sure that makes it easier to hold the positions you do. Your post I'm now responding to goes beyond repugnant. It's absolutely disgusting. I'm having nothing further to do with you.

[TX-RAT]

21. They aren't singling out people who are breaking the law.

Last i heard, trespassing, is still against the law. You trespass on my property and you will be reported to the proper authorities.

(They are harassing people they THINK are breaking the law, because they look Mexican.)
No, they are reporting people that they have witnessed breaking the law, most just happen to be Mexicans.

(I don't know why you refuse to understand that point.)
I don't no why you continue to ignore the facts.

[Pithlet]

118. And as I've said muliple times, I don't care if it is legal

It is possible to act within the bounds of law and be a bigot. How many more times do I have to say that?

[TX-RAT]

121. You have your right to an opinion.

They have their right to report a crime. Whether their bigots or not.

[Pithlet]

122. Why, thank you.

I'm so glad you recognize my right to an opinion.

They have their right to be a bigot, as well. No one said bigotry is against the law. But, woe to anyone who tries to recognize it and speak out against it, though, even here on DU. This isn't the first time I've been been accused of picking on the poor racists. Racism runs very deep in our culture, and I think it is unconscious in a lot of people. They're fine until someone piques their sensibility, and then it's rabid defense of the bigots time.

[Pockets]

23. I'm new here... and confused.

I come here in full support of Democratics, and support most liberal ideals, but this is confusing me. Am I to understand Democrats are supposed to support unprotected and open borders with Mexico?

There are a lot of things the U.S. should do to streamline the immigration system, and I think Kerry supported some good ideas, but the border should not be open to any criminal who wants to pass, should it?

I'm sure most the Minutemen want to be like Rambo in real life one last time before they go to redneck Heaven, but that doesn't negate the service they are doing for the country. If they accidentally harass legal Mexican Americans, they should be arrested for it; except for that, I don't understand what they are doing wrong.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

24. No, but sending out a bunch of white supremacists to the borders with guns

is not the answer. And yes, they are white supremacists. Their spokesperson, Simcox, is a known racist. All they need are the hoods. Why do you need guns to make a call?

[Pockets]

26. the 2nd Amendment sucks

But we're stuck living in a country where people are allowed to have guns.

People are allowed to be racists too, as long as they don't break they law in the process.

I totally agree that these people probably are not savory characters, and they are pansies for needing guns to protect themselves.

But nobody else is doing the job, not GWB, not anyone in the Republican controlled government, nobody, so what alternative is there? It had been my thinking that many of the minutemen probably are Dems who are frustrated that cons aren't doing their job.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

30. This idea has been attempted before and ended with dead and injured

Mexicans.

[Pockets]

34. That would not be good

But at least that would put some rednecks in jail, and in our litigious society financially set the Mexicans' families up for life.

I'm still trying to see the downside to all this.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

35. You're trying to see the downside?

What good is money when your relative is dead because of some racist with an itchy trigger finger.

[Pockets]

42. Compromise is needed

Okay, I see your point, but how about deputizing these Minutemen, making them legal, but making their job contingent on following gun policy of the job, i.e. no guns until becoming qualified according to the job's guidelines.

Now, blame the government for not enacting such a program. Blame the rednecks and arrest them if they break the law, like harrassing or shooting someone. Maybe it will help accelerate Darwinism.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

45. Yes, let's deputize a group that was formed on the backs of racists and

vigilantes.

[DoNotRefill]

133. Who have the minutemen killed?

I'd think that such an incident would be front-page news, given how much media is there. Please provide a link.

[Misunderestimator]

41. Wow... "financially set the Mexican's families up for life."

Just wow... Would that be enough for you, if your husband or wife or child or parent was killed? That you would be set financially for life? Or do you only think that's good for Mexicans?

[Pockets]

46. I'm trying to be realistic, gun control is a lost cause.

I was not thinking about a death scenario, I was thinking more along the lines of serious harassment or injury.

Look, like it or not we live in a free country, and the 2nd Amendment is very important to Joe and Sue Hayseed. I used to favor gun control but realized guns are a necessary evil in a free country. I'm sorry if that does not follow party lines but it is one of the few issues I deviate on.

[Misunderestimator]

51. Ok, so you like your guns...

but why would you think it is ok for any schmoe to tote his rifle to the border without any law enforcement training? Surely you can see how this could easily devolve?

[Pockets]

62. Weren't the Guardian Angels vigilante group a precursor

to rejuvenating NYC before it became a place where people can today walk down the sidewalks without fear?

In answer to your question, yes I can see where problems can arise from the Minutemen, but problems have and already are arising as a result of free and open borders.

[DoNotRefill]

134. Because toting a rifle there isn't illegal?

eom

[Misunderestimator]

27. LOL... Are Democrats supposed to support unprotected and open borders?

Apparently, you're missing the point... supporting vigilantes to protect our borders is not the solution.

[Pockets]

32. Show me where Bush supports the Minutemen and I'll Denounce them

It's my understanding Bush is not a supporter of the Minutement... that he referred to them as vigilantes. Anything Bush hates I'm all for....

[Misunderestimator]

36. So, just because Bush happens to agree that these men are

vigilantes, we should take a different stance? Never thought I'd agree with a word out of his mouth, but he's right about that (or whoever fed him the words to say is wise enough to be right about that). I don't form my opinions to be simply the opposite of Bush's.

[DoNotRefill]

135. Bush is wrong (big surprise there)

They aren't vigilantes, because they are not trying to "dispense summary justice".

They're calling the cops when they see illegal activity, nothing more.

[Pithlet]

119. No. That was never my point

One does not have to support open borders in order to call people out on their bigoted actions. One doesn't always have to do with the other. Read my posts (and others if you care to) on this issue. I explain that very clearly.

[DoNotRefill]

132. Hmmmm.....

"All these people are doing are making the area hostile to ALL people who look like Mexicans, NOT JUST Mexicans crossing the border. I don't know why you refuse to understand that point."

Look at the demographics of the area. How many people actually LIVE there? If you see people there, you know they're generally either illegals, Minutemen, media, Border Patrol, or ACLU. Why? BECAUSE SO FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIVES THERE, BECAUSE THE CLIMATE IS SO INHOSPITABLE.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

10. I can't wait for the Minutemen apologists to overrun the thread

making extraneous arguments and citing "The Constitution" to cover up their racism.

:popcorn:

Should be lots of fun-I'm going to the beach and will be back later to read the results.

[TahitiNut]

99. Yeah... just like those racists at the ACLU ...

... who defended the Klan marches in Skokie, "making extraneous arguments and citing 'The Constitution' (how DARE they?? Thats OURS!!!) to cover up their racism." :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[lonestarnot]

12. Minutemen have exposed themselves for what they are...but illegal

border crossing needs to be stopped... When the government doesn't do its job this is what we get.

[Jesus Saves]

13. If there's a ever a right wing Kristalnacht (sp-?)

wouldn't you think these one minute men would be participants? I'm not saying there's going to be one - just if...so we're absolutely clear who's side they're on here.

[clem_c_rock]

16. As I said before-99.9% of these Minutemen are shit-kicking rednecks

Who I would give my left arm to trade them to Mexico for the people trying to cross the border.

[TahitiNut]

25. What an incredible waste of bandwidth!

I don't know if I've ever seen a less rational, reasonable, and logical thread on DU. By the specious "logic" of some, this topic might as well be entitled: "Neighborhood Watch are bigots and so is anyone who supports them." Indeed, such a stance might be more supportable, imho.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. Neighborhood watches usually aren't composed of a majority of armed

racists.

[TahitiNut]

39. Got a reputable cite for that claim?

:eyes: Try being black in a "white neighborhood." Funny thing: there's no law against it, unlike crossing an international border surreptitiously.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

43. Well, the spokesman for the group is a grand ol' chap called Chris Simcox

White supremacist groups LOVE the minutemen and are reporting that they are members on their boards. Well, we know they carry guns...

What part do you not believe? That people in neighborhood watches aren't a group of concentrated racists just waiting with guns at their windows?

[TahitiNut]

47. Well, stop drinking beer. I hear "white supremacists" love it.

What a bunch of fallacious hogwash! :eyes:

Not only do the ends not justify the means, the (alleged motives and alleged) ends don't delegitimize the means either. That's really not difficult to understand.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. "alleged"? He is very open about it.

The motives sure do illegitamize the means if the motives will determine how the means are carried out.

[formernaderite]

38. My only beef with illegal crossings..

is the trash left behind in wilderness areas. The Sierra club was clobbered politically for mentioning this, but I tend to agree. Personally I don't think any human can be illegal...but I also decry the destruction of nature occurring.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

40. When illegals are caught and escorted back over the border, they are

ordered to drop everything. Hence, the things left behind.

[formernaderite]

141. I wish it were only those things....

I'm talking about actual trash, beyond the cacti that are stepped on, wilderness that is disturbed....unfortunately it's not just dropped when they're caught.

[TX-RAT]

145. It's scattered from one end of the trail to the other.

[DoNotRefill]

136. No human is illegal....

but some humans break the law.

[JohnnyCougar]

147. I'm sure this is a real problem.

Immigrant garbage is threatening the environment :eyes:

[Balbus]

49. Don't know if it has been posted yet, but here's the video

Of the imprisonment, harrassment and cruelty to the Mexican national who, I'm sure by pure mistake, just happened to find himself on the wrong side of the border.

immigrant imprisoned & tortured video

[Misunderestimator]

54. Isn't that special... tricking the guy

to wait for the border patrol. What's your point?

[TX-RAT]

56. That would be tricking the criminal.

If you consider,food,water,clothing and money, Tricking.

[Misunderestimator]

57. I consider it tricking, yes. Dishonest and patronizing.

And misleading as well to only depict this one nerdy guy as if he represents the typical Minuteman. :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

71. Wow, don't believe your lying eyes!

:eyes:

That was 100% legal. It was compassionate. It was above board.

It was well done.

I applaud the actions of that Minuteman.

And since this one guy was skinny he doesn't represent the average minuteman.

Give. Me. A. Break.

BRAVO FOR THAT MINUTEMAN!

[Misunderestimator]

74. I certainly never said it was illegal. Just tricky. And that's not the

point at all. Since this guy wasn't toting a rifle, he is not the typical Minuteman that is the subject of this thread. C.o.r.r.e.c.t.

[Balbus]

78. I believe the subject of the original thread did in fact...

imply "ALL" minutemen and "ALL" the people that support them. Did I misunderstand that?

[Misunderestimator]

92. Nope... That's what it said... and I agree with it...

Just because some of them do it "innocently" doesn't mean that they are not part of the problem themselves. Frankly, I think them being there and being perfect little innocent "poster children" for the Minutemen is even more damaging, since it is used as propaganda to distract people from the dangers. Yes, isn't he sweet... sitting with him and speaking in Spanish and offering Wheaties and leche to his new "amigo" as he then passes him off to the officer. :eyes:

Yes, I agree that anyone who supports the Minutemen (you cannot just pick and choose which single ones to support but the group as a whole) is a racist.

[Walt Starr]

114. i.n.c.o.r.r.e.c.t.

Nobody has established that the typical Minuteman is toting a rifle. Especially since long guns were specifically prohibited in this event by those who organized it!

[Walt Starr]

69. I APPLAUD how that was handled

There wasn't a thing illegal about what that video showed. It was compassionate and 100% within the law and constitution.

[GoldenOldie]

86. It's so easy to go on the attack against the Mexican/Latin American

illegals when you don't have to actually look them in the eye or in person. They are just faceless objects to those who don't particularly care how our borders are closed, they just want them closed.

The same can be said of the Iraqi war. Those that supported Bush and still support him not willing to look at the flag drapped coffins returning or the faces or bodies of the 100,000+++ dead Iraqi women and children. It's an "outta sight, outta mind." mentality.

Living along the Arizona border, having a long family history of Tombstone and the exact border area in which these "viigilante's," claim to be protecting, is a joke. Chris Simcox, is a newcomer to Arizona and he has found a his niche in Tombstone. He has joined the other drug-store, wannabee cowboys who have taken over the actual historic town of Tombstone and made it their very own Disneyland of the West. Chris Simcox joined with the Barnett family.....long time family owned and operated propane, junkyard, and towing business's. Barnett has been known to be a two-bit player in his small time endeavors and oldtimers have little trust or faith in his actions. He is as much of a rancher as George W. Bush....trophy ranch. Both Simcox and Barnett now have the stage they need to feed their egos. Yet you can be darn sure that the Barnett family have utilized the illegals in their many business adventures.

Yes the border problems need to be solved but we cannot ignore the plight of those that will do whatever it takes to care for their family. If you are hungry or thirsty, you are not going to sit around and wait for someone to bring it to you. You will to to whereever the food and water are. No one questions the Cubans entering Florida illegally.....if they touch the soil, they are allowed to remain. Who is paying for their education, medical, etc. Why are the Cubans allowed to stay free of the threat of deportation when our very own border neighbors......whose ancestors once owned all the areas in which they cross?

Yes the border problems are serious and the border states well know the cost of assuming the educational, medical, etc. These costs are not re-imbursed by the US Government and all federal support programs have been cut out entirely or slashed so much to be ineffective. Why is our Texas President, who claims to speak spanish not dealing diplomatically with our Mexican border partners?

[beam me up scottie]

107. Some much needed insight from a local.

Thank you.

[Texasgal]

64. For those of you who think that the

Minutemen are NOT racist, can you tell me why they are not on the Canadian border?

[TX-RAT]

68. Give them time.

They or another group might just do that.

[Texasgal]

73. I doubt that....

Too many WHITE people crossing these days. :(

[Balbus]

70. Because 93% of illegal immigration comes across the Mexico-US border.

http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1301&c=54

[Texasgal]

72. Maybe so...

But is not true that several of the 9/11 highjackers came from Canada?

I am seriously asking this becuase I am not so sure.,

[beam me up scottie]

75. I grew up living on the Canadian border.

I doubt we would welcome armed militias patrolling our land.
They need to crawl back under their rocks where they feel "safe" from the bad old immigrants.

[TX-RAT]

81. It's private land, and they were invited.

[beam me up scottie]

84. So was ours.

And we wouldn't "invite" bigots to "protect" us.

[TX-RAT]

88. Thats your choice.

And the landowners in AZ made theirs.

[beam me up scottie]

95. So some landowner chose

to have boss hog and his merry men "defend" their land?
Why?
The immigrants are just passing through, aren't they?
They are certainly no threat to the landowners.

[TX-RAT]

97. It's a simple thing called private property.

And i don't allow trespassing.

[beam me up scottie]

103. Neither did we.

Funny, we didn't feel the need to have a bunch of rednecks guarding it with guns.
I thought they were only "protesting" to draw attention to the problem?

I'm sure the REAL border guards enjoy having to babysit at the daycare center for gi joe wanna-be's.

[TX-RAT]

113. Just how many illegals did you have crossing your property?

Covering the trails with trash.
Cutting holes in your fence.
Breaking into buildings.
Stealing ranch vehicles.
Stealing livestock.
Running drugs.
Texas Department Of Transportation had to go to all wood signs, anywhere close to the border. It seems the illegals were crossing at night and stealing their aluminum signs, and selling them for junk across the border.

[beam me up scottie]

115. Please.

Those acts, even if they did occur, have nothing to do with stopping illegal immigration.
And as I said, the people who actually have the job of patrolling the border wouldn't appreciate a bunch of fat racist slobs running around with guns and tripping the sensors.

edit sp

[TX-RAT]

116. They occur far to often.

I've never said a damn thing about stopping illegal immigration, I've said from the first, it's a private property issue with me.

(And as I said, the people who actually have the job of patrolling the border wouldn't appreciate a bunch of fat racist slobs running around with guns and tripping the sensors.)

Those sensors are on private property.If they get tripped by the landowner or his friends, thats too bad.

[beam me up scottie]

117. Yeah, it is too bad that they're actually

getting in the way of real law enforcement officials so that they can "play" soldier.

They have a right to be as stupid as they want, sure, but interfering with the authorities who are actually trying to enforce the law they claim isn't being enforced is a bit more than just stupid, wouldn't you say?

Since the minute men are supposed to be calling attention to the invasion of illegal aliens but are actually hindering the border patrol, it proves the point that they are there for another reason.
Anybody care to guess what that reason is?

[barb162]

89. check the 9/11 Commission report to see how they were coming

into the USA. They were coming in from Miami, LA, NY, etc.

[bunkerbuster1]

100. per usual, Rude Pundit nailed it about anti-immigrant racism

Jeez louise, people. This is an easy one.

from http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2005/04/armed-rednecks-at-border-part-2.html

and I quote:

But, you know, let's put it this way: if, say, the northern border of the United States, you know, the one with Canada, was like the southern border, do you think most of the country would give a happy monkey fuck about large groups of English-speaking white people coming into the America? If the armed rednecks walked by construction sites and saw lots of white men putting up drywall, would they fuckin' blink? If the lawns of the Phoenix suburbs were watered, mowed, and shaped by white people, would anyone want those fuckers tossed out and/or arrested?

Why stop there? If large groups of undocumented white people crossed the border to pick fruit and vegetables, do you think the government would actually do something to the companies that treat this barely-above-slave labor so shabbily? (Well, not this administration, but some fantasy U.S. government that gives a shit about people.)

The problem, dear, dear antagonistic readers, is not really the illegals. Surely, they are lawbreakers, but like the pot smoker, the vast majority of the 11 million or so illegals are way, way low on the totem pole of lawlessness. The problem, as we learn all the time, is that America cannot survive without its slaves. And that goes for the slaves in the fields and the slaves in the factories of American companies overseas. The culture of corporate capitalism calls for slavery. You wanna reduce the flow of illegals? Dry up the sources of income (or treat them like, say, human beings) by targeting large corporations that rely on them. You wanna protect the borders? Then don't fuckin' vote for the guy who's gonna spend all the goddamn money on tax breaks and tryin' to take over another country.

[TahitiNut]

104. While it focuses on the REAL and needed solution ...

... it still equates those opposed to illegal immigration with racists. I couldn't disagree more vigorously with such a broad brush attack. I oppose illegal immigration. I don't care at all about the illegal immigrant's ethnicity.

I believe we either enforce (and obey) the law or we fucking change it! That goes for speed limits and drug laws, too! I strongly believe that any law with which more than about 5% of the people aren't willing to comply 100% of the time is a law that cannot stand in a free society. I strongly believe that we must commit to enforcement of any law we have - or we not have it in the first place.

When we have laws we're not willing to uniformly enforce, we're inviting both a police state and vigilantism. So, enforce it or change it.

[bunkerbuster1]

110. He's talking about the Minutemen, not you.

You want to focus on enforcement, you want to apply the law to those who are breaking it in an equitable fashion, I'll not slam you for it.

That said, I've met very few who are especially upset about "illegals" who don't have a racist streak a mile wide. Assuming you don't, I'd say you have a huge hurdle to jump, in terms of the typical liberal's perception.

[Misunderestimator]

105. You said it!

:thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

108. Perfect!

Thank you Rude Pundit, it needed to be said!
And thanks for posting it!
:applause:

[0007]

102. When the Minutemen first started this project I had no idea

what they were. Now that I know, I can't say I support them any shape way or form. They are a part of the problem that exist in our country.

[beam me up scottie]

109. I'm with you.

I didn't post on the threads last week because I dind't know enough about them.
I've seen all I need to see and heard all I need to hear.

[Zorra]

111. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Employment Situation Summary, March 2005

Since these statistics come from an agency that is part of the Bush administration, I tend to believe that the actual number of US citizens that are unemployed is probably significantly higher.

There were 1.6 million persons who were marginally attached to the labor
force in March, about the same as a year earlier. (Data are not seasonally
adjusted.) These individuals wanted and were available to work and had looked
for a job sometime in the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed,
however, because they did not actively search for work in the 4 weeks preceding
the survey. The number of discouraged workers, at 480,000 in March, was little
changed from a year earlier. Discouraged workers, a subset of the marginally
attached, were not currently looking for work specifically because they believed
no jobs were available for them. The other 1.1 million marginally attached had
not searched for work for reasons such as school attendance or family responsi-
bilities. (See table A-13.)

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

FYI

[beam me up scottie]

112. Another letter from a concerned patriot:

#####
Saturday, April 09, 2005

Necrophillic Hate-mongering Conservative Christian Cannibals for Immigration Control

Remember Bryan Barton? He's the fine, young, Christian, conservative Minuteman who humiliated an impoverished and hungry brown man earlier this week after catching him near the Mexican border. Before turning the illegal immigrant over to the Border Patrol, Barton, a compassionate conservative, gave him an important lesson in capitalism and responsibility by exchanging a handful of Wheaties, "The Breakfast of Champions," for an opportunity to be videotaped while holding a t-shirt emblazoned with the words, "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."

Well, Bryan Barton is running for Congress and he needs your help. You see, the French are trying to destroy him by calling him a bigot. They point to his past work as the editor of The Koala, an independent University of California San Diego student publication renowned for its racist, homophobic, and misogynistic editorial perspective.

The left was particularly angered by an issue of The Koala called "Jizzlam," in which Barton published his fantasy of killing a Muslim woman, raping her dead body, and then eating it. Personally, I don't see why they have a problem with that. It's the kind of thinking that gets rewarded in Tom DeLay's Congress.

Anyway, Byran Barton needs your help. Please drop him an email or give him a call at [phone] (apparently, this is the number to his Student Job Line business. I hope no one notices that by using it as his campaign number as well, he's violating federal law.)
#####

http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/

Many thanks to the General.

[NNN0LHI]

124. Shit. I wanted to see what happened after it hit 999

Does it go back to Ø after that or does it register 4 figures? Anyone know?

Don

[johnnyDoc]

130. If the gov't did its job the Minutemen would go away.

I have nothing at all against immigrants, my great grandparents immigrated here. But people should come here legally. The Minutemen are simply doing what jorge bush won't

[BethFromIL]

142. If the Govt did it's job

For those of you speaking about Illegal Immigration just a couple of
websites that gives you Real facts on the results illegal immigration.

I think if you took time to really read the information on these sites which call for immigration reform you might see it has nothing to do which being racist at all. It's affecting our environment, schools, hospitals, and health care in general .

NumbersUSA.com
Federation for American Immigration Reform (Fair).

You'd also would probably be surprised to know many Hispanics also want our borders controlled.

[Pithlet]

144. No one is arguing for open borders

In this or the other thread. The outrage in this and the first thread isn't against guarding borders. It is about the Minutemen.

NumbersUSA.com appears to support RealID, and talks about Threats to Homeland Security. They seem to ignore completely the reason that people are trying to get to our country to begin with. They obviously make an effort to not appear racist or bigoted, and I had to search a little bit before I got to RealID and Threats to Homeland Security, but it's there. They have a nice little essay on how it is bad to bash immigrants, as if that somehow makes the rest of their site okay. Eh. Not too impressed.

FAIR seems a bit better. But it still doesn't go much beyond "There are too many immigrants and we need to do something about it". Neither site does. But, again, this thread and the original are about the racist, bigoted motives and actions of the Minutemen. I couldn't find anything about them in either of those sites.