They Want War

[ulysses]

Excellent article on the front page today about our dear friends at the DLC -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/04/06_war.html

Kudos, A.P. Short!

So it was no surprise to see the DLC hordes taking to the airwaves and focusing with laser-like precision on the single most dire threat facing the modern Democratic Party: anti-war Democrats.

:D

[bryant69]

1. It's the way of it.

The key question is motivation. I mean if they genuinely believe the anti-war protesters are wrong, than well, they got a right to fight that fight despite the number of larger targets around. But if, as the author suggests (and as I largely believe), the whole point is to look good attacking anti-war Democrats, that seems like neither a winning strategy nor does it seem morally supportable.

In other words honest men can disagree. But if you disagree with a dishonest man, it's best not to forget that he is a dishonest man.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[TahitiNut]

2. If there's better evidence that the DLC is serving the GOP right wing ...

... I've not seen it. In attacking and alienating the core constituency on the left, the DLC is overtly engaged in the politics of division. They're jettisoning the poor and disenfranchised whose blood is shed for Corporate War. They're the House Slaves for the GOP plantation plutocrats.

[Eloriel]

18. You've not seen their ties to the rightwing funders?

Buried in these threads somewhere:


LINKS - What every DUer and every Dem needs to know about the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4443&forum=DCForumID22&archive=

Let's be REALLY honest about the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23262&forum=DCForumID60&archive=


Outing the "New Democrats" -- Pukes in Progressive Clothing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1435&forum=DCForumID34

Everyone who is a fan of the DLC, needs to read this post,
(Devils Advocate NZ's post is included)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11323&forum=DCForumID60#114

Kerry, the New Democrats, and American Military Hegemony
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=326015#326061

New Dems formed to get corporate donors, be free from party base ideology
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1346735&mesg_id=1346735&page=

Ask the questions NOW of the DLC and Clinton. Corporate funding.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1372759#1373432


NEW ADDITIONS:
RIGHT WEB: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/ppi.php

Overview of DLC
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/marshall/marshall.php

PPI
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/org/ppi.php

WILL MARSHALL: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/marshall/marshall.phpAlthough

(OMG! The PNAC/DLC Connection!)No More Moore: DLC Joins the Witch-Hunt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2784312
Link: http://nypress.com/17/48/news&columns/taibbi.cfm



As long as I'm at it, a few other interesting or even important DLC links:

List of Democratic traitors - House New Dems sell out on bankruptcy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1650853

Is the DLC stupid, suicidal, or are they a bunch of cheap corp. whores?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1655248&mesg_id=1655248&page=

DLC tells what we stand for..while voting for the bankruptcy bill. Irony.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1649569

Going Nowhere; The DLC Sputters to a Halt
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050321&s=berman
discussed here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x110472

Open Letter Concerning the Draft at The Weekly Standard-PNACer's-Heads up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3032579#3032703

See Post #16 re Marshall Whitman and Christian Coalition
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1524979#1524986


New Dems formed to get corporate donors, be free from party base ideology.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1346735&mesg_id=1346735

Same companies behind the GOP are behind the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1481121#1481428

WTF? Roemer (Candidate for DNC Chair) funded by Scaife!?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1475435&mesg_id=1475435
Mercatus Center (Roemer, Scaife funded)
http://www.mercatus.org/capitolhillcampus/article.php/933.htm

Bill is not longer DLC. In fact, he told them off a couple of years ago.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1483636#1483676

[G_j]

3. In this great "compassionate" country

who 'in power' doesn't treat pro-peace people like untouchables?
oh yea, and the media hates us too...


excellent article, thanks for the heads up.

[ulysses]

4. a wee

:kick:

[mattclearing]

5. Funny, I thought the most dire threat was the Republicans. Dumbasses.

I'm tired of corporatists with big checkbooks and no people trying to tell us our priorities.

The DLC needs to get some popular backing or fuck off.

[mmonk]

58. hopefully, the latter

[G_j]

6. kick

[bvar22]

7. I will no longer vote for...

...or send money to ANY politician who will advance the agenda of the RICH ELITE at the expense of LABOR, the WORKING CLASS, and the poor!!!

Would one of the DLC supporters please explain to me again how voting for these Corporate Owned puppets is the SMART thing to do?

Progressive Democrats can be found here:
http://www.pdamerica.org/

[K-W]

11. If you can get progressives elected, please do.

But if the choice is between a dlc democrat and an intentionally facist republican, I would hope you could see why it was the smart thing to do.

A vote isnt a test of moral purity, it is a tool, we should both work to make it an effective tool and at the same time use what little power it gives us to at every opportunity influence things for the better, even if the better isnt great.

[ulysses]

12. is the alternative actually "better" any more?

I would say no. In fact, because they claim the title "Democrat", I'd say it's worse.

[K-W]

19. Have you met my friend Tom Delay.

Of course they are better, massively better, which is a testament to how low the repubs are.

[ulysses]

28. welfare "reform", bankruptcy "reform", Dems who support vouchers

and an illegal invasion of Iraq that the DLC *still* supports. Massively better? I doubt that.

[K-W]

30. Massively is just a vague adjective, lets not get bogged down.

The DLC is aweful, I concede that, can you please try arguing some other point?

The DLC is aweful, the republicans are worse. The DLC agree to the policies introduced by republicans. The DLC need to lose every primary they enter, and every general election they run against a decent person, but they deserve to win every election they run against a republican who votes party line, and that is now most republicans.

Yes we need to reform.
Yes the DLC and all centrist democrats suck(and most of the others should be taking cues from progressives) and I am never trying to make them seem good.
But when one of them runs against someone who will vote every issue with the hard right nuts, you create a better tommarow by voting for the DLC candidate, then leaving the polls, and starting to work to beat him in the primaries in the next election.

[ulysses]

33. why would I argue another point?

That IS my point.

It would be nice, yes, to be able to focus on defeating the GOP, but that's difficult to do while those who are ostensibly in my party are trying to stick a pitchfork in my back.

No, they need to *go*. Then the rest of us can get on with it.

[K-W]

36. But I wasnt making the opposite point, so why did you reply to me?

Why would you intentionally argue against a point that I am not making?

You dont seem to realize that the only way to beat either is to build up our numbers to elect our candidates, and that if we do that we can, and will beat both the DLC and the GOP and that if we dont do that we can beat neither.

They all need to go, but until they do they are better in office than republicans.

You are pretending that not voting is a neutral action. You cannot stand still on a moving train. But this is all contingent on DLC candidates winning democratic primaries, I am all for changing that and removing this horrible situation.

[ulysses]

39. oh, I'm not talking about not voting.

I always vote.

I took issue with your assertion that the Dem is always better. Two votes I made in 2000 stand out to me - Nader for president and Zell Miller for Senate. I regret one of those votes, and it's not Nader.

[K-W]

40. I only meant better than a party line repub.

Even the most right wing dem votes with the dems sometimes. There are anomolies of course, like Zell.

[eridani]

52. Don't conflate centrists with DLC

Not the same at all, and a lot of them are OK.

[K-W]

53. Sorry, but the DLC consistantly takes stances I cannot approve of.

I want the rule of law brought down on corporations and I want a peacetime defense budget.

They are philosophically centrist, if not always politically.

[eridani]

55. Yabbut--all centrists aren't DLC, are they?

Even though the reverse is true.

[tavalon]

57. Have you met their fried, Joe Lieberman

Sometimes they aren't much better.

[TankLV]

15. I will. Thanks.

The Dems will have to EARN my vote this time around! - I'll not waste it voting for Anybody But ... anymore!

Either they are actually what I want, and not AGAINST, then I sit out the dance or vote for someone who shares my views.

It can't be any worse - we've lost for the last 10 years sitting down and shutting up and voting for garbage - so at least if I vote my conscience and lose again, I will feel better for not having been unfaithful to MYSELF!

[K-W]

20. Less human beings on this planet die unjustly when democrats are in power.

I refuse to let people die so I dont feel dirty after election day.

[ulysses]

31. as has been pointed out before,

it has nothing to do with what I feel like the day after. It has everything to do with refusing to further empower those who are doing real harm to people - and that includes the DLC.

[K-W]

37. So you choose to empower the republicans instead, brilliant. EOM

[ulysses]

41. it includes them too.

I just reject the idea that my choices are limited to watching the country thrown headlong into a hole and watching it be dragged into the same hole, only more slowly.

[K-W]

46. You are rejecting reality. And thinking far to generally.

In the larger scope you obviously choose to fight for progressive candidates.

But, if that fight has failed, and your only two possible outcomes of election dar are a DLC person and party line republican, the reality is you only have two choices.

Making the best of the situation is a positive attribute, not a negetive one ulysses, youve just got to take it day by day and do the best you can. The best thing you can do for yourself and others if there is no good man on the ballot is to vote for the better of the two bad men. You can reject the idea or come up with complicated justifications for not believing it, but it is simply the truth.

Vote for the DLC guy, screw Karl Rove's direct minion, and work like hell to run a progressive in the next democratic primary. I dont understand what your objection is to that.

[ulysses]

47. the objection

is that I don't intend to suck it up for the rest of my life waiting for the next primary while things go to hell in a slower handbasket. You get a politician's attention by voting for someone else, not shaking your fist at him and then voting for him anyway because you "have no other choice".

[K-W]

49. So youd rather wait for the next primary with a republican in office?

I said, work to get a progressive on the ballot, btw, not wait.
You have to wait for the next primary no matter what you do.

[acmejack]

25. Well said!

That why we must have meaningful campaign finance reform. What is the percentage of millionaires looking out for our interests now? They should pay them the median income from their district, we'd see some representation of our interests then!

[bvar22]

16. Two things:

1) the Moral Purity argument is bogus. I could easily argue that the DLC insists on Corporate "Trickle Down" Moral Purity. Hell, we (the Liberal Democrats) campaigned for and voted for a Pro-Corporate, Pro-War DLC candidate in 2004.

It isn't the liberal wing of the Demopcratic Party that is insisting on Moral Purity, it is the DLC that is insisting on their right to Kill the Working Class and LABOR! There's your Moral Purity!

2) "influence things for the better, even if the better isnt great."
Also BOGUS. Things" have gotten progressively WORSE for Labor and the Working and Middle Class under DLC guidence...even when Democrats held the Presidency, the House, and the Senate.

[K-W]

21. That isnt really what I meant.

1) My point is that not voting for DLC people may make you feel morally pure, because you didnt support someone you dont like, but that isnt the point of voting. The point of voting is exercising that little bit of power history has given us to provide the best possible future for yourself and others.

It isnt fair that we have to vote for dickheads. It really isnt, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt go vote for a dickhead when the other dickhead is worse.

I never suggested you should feel obligated to campaign for anyone. My point is this. 364 days of the year you can fight tooth and nail for only causes and politicians you agree with 100%. I think thats wonderful, but when you walk in the voting booth, you simply dont have the option of voting for a progressive yet, we need to make that an option, and Im not suggesting we do that less, simply that on that day, you have a chance to make a difference, to pick between two bad futures, but one worse than the other, I dont see why its more important that you feel good about yourself not selling out, than it would be to get the better future.

2) Yes, the democrats have sucked, the DLC is aweful. I agree with you 300%. I want desperately to have a real progressive choice, it is criminal that we do not. But until then, dems are better than repubs (at least for the time being).

[bvar22]

22. You misunderstand.

My destruction of your bogus moral purity argument is simple and to the point. How did you manage to misunderstand?

[K-W]

24. You destructed what you mistakenly thought was my argument.

But its special that you assume I must be an idiot, rather than you misreading.

[bvar22]

26. No

The Moral Purity bullshit has been around since 2000. The DLC and their operatives have used it to try to marginalize what is actually the mainstream of the Democratic Party. It is usually the conditioned first response of the apologists for the DLC. I'm not surprised you reflexively reached for it first.

It was bullshit in 2000, 2002, 2004, and it is bullshit now.

[K-W]

29. Why does the COINCIDENCE of me using the same word as someone else...

make you think you can conlude that I was agreeing with them?

The DLC didnt invent the words "moral purity." Im sorry that you dealt with alot of annoying DLC operatives in the past, but you are very mistaken in thinking that I am one.

I urge you to read the opinion I actually wrote, rather than the one you assume I have because you think I'm a DLC op because I used the word's moral purity.

[bvar22]

34. Hey,

You are the one who drug out the DLC talking points.


I normally don't engage in these petty little "You said..I Said" games, but I do want to keep this thread kicked to the top where more people have a chance to read the powerful essay linked in the OP.

For those who missed , please read this about the DLC:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/04/06_war.html

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

43. Yes.

DLC talking point #1
Anyone who supports anyone to the left of us (repub lite) is insisting on moral purity, and that is just not pragmatic. In the REAL World you MUST vote for the guy who hurts you the least, and that is us because we are not as bad as the republicans. Otherwise YOU are guilty of electing republicans.


In post #11, you said:
"A vote isnt a test of moral purity, it is a tool, we should both work to make it an effective tool and at the same time use what little power it gives us to at every opportunity influence things for the better, even if the better isnt great."

I will state again:
You are the one who drug out the DLC talking points.

[K-W]

44. The DLC dont admit to being bad, you clearly aren't being serious.

And even if that was a secret DLC talking point, it is also a completely legetimate point for someone to make. Just because the DLC uses it doesnt mean it is false and doesnt mean I am DLC.

But the DLC don't use that talking point, because it is premised on the fact that the DLC are republicans, which they do not claim to be. Interestingly enough they claim to be very much opposed to the republicans.

Now please, explain to me how not voting or voting for a third party makes the world better than voting for a DLC democrat when he/she runs against a party line republican.

Im sorry that you think there is DLC operative around every bush. And Im sorry that you cant handle the concept of thinking DLC are better than republicans but still hating them.

[bvar22]

8. Recommended

:kick:

[ulysses]

9. thanks.

It's a good article, no? :D

[bvar22]

10. Si...

Good enough to belong among the Greatest.
Need another recommendation.

To put it bluntly, the Very Wealthy Elitists have bought their way into the Democratic Party and are spending money to influence the direction of the Democratic Party. These are people who would prefer a pro-corporate republican over a liberal Democrat. (See the Democratic primaries of 2004)

I HATE REPUBLICANS in Donkey suits.

The Rich CEO's and Investor Class already have one party (the Republicans).
I refuse to help sell them the Democratic Party!!!
(may be too late)

[unhappycamper]

13. recommended

WELL DONE!

:kick:

[Just Me]

14. Hence, the GOP is KICKING THEIR ASSES (or not).

The GOP can wrap the fringe elements of society around Americans' brains and Americans are distancing themselves more and more each day. Yet, the DLC is rejecting half of Americans who question and/or believe this war IS wrong,...instead of wrapping that popular fact around the rest of the fringe elements?

WTF is wrong with these people? DO THEY CHOOSE TO LOSE?

[bvar22]

17. The only way the DLC loses...

..is if a LIBERAL Democrat wins a seat and votes against the Pro-Corporate agenda of the DLC.

By letting the Corporate COE's and wealthy investor class buy their votes (ex. Biden), the DLC Democrats have become very Wealthy. They raised more money than ever in 2004 (Hillary), and sold out middle America (you and me, unless you are in the top 1 %).

[K-W]

32. The simple truth: We need to win Dem primaries.

We need to beat the corporations at our polls, then beat them in the general election. Step one, followed by step 2.

[peacebird]

35. you know - I used to vote independent and then decided it was time

to quit "wasting" my vote and vote against repukes. This was during Ronnie's era...

I remained a solid, steadfast democrat - volunteering, donating, and voting until this last election fiasco ended. Even in the 2004 election I was willing to tolerate the bastardization of the dem party into repuke-lite and vote in order to vote ABB.

This has ended. Sorry. We do NOT win by being repuke lite. We do NOT win by being mealy mouthed. We do NOT win by rolling over and playing "nice". We do NOT win and since we do NOT win ANYHOW - why the hell should we not be a pain in the ass, thorn in the side of the ruling party and point out EVERY MISSTEP, and every misdeed?

UNTIL THE DEM'S ARE WILLING TO DO THIS - and by and large they are NOT so far. Then I say - hey hey - ho ho - my loyalty has got to go!

I am back to being an independent. The Dems do not deserve my support unless they have platforms that earn it.

But - just to keep myself honest I have bought a five acre place to call home which I can farm organically, am installing solar, and buying a prius to replace my normal car. I will walk my walk, volunteer, speak out, write letters, be active politically BUT I will no longer be a servile "dem" who can be COUNTED ON to vote dem and then IGNORED as the political whores vote repuke-lite.

just my two-cents...

[Terran1212]

23. They want war

The DLC and mainstream politicians want all of us to be on the Right? I'm so surprised !

: p

[Pharaoh]

27. sounds like they are drinkin the kool-aid..........

[Disturbed]

42. If everyone that is disgusted with the Dem Lites would..

join the Green Party then that Greens would no longer be incapable of garnering Natl. positions in Congress.

[K-W]

45. Then why arent progressives winning democratic primaries?

If the Green Party can win national elections, lets see it do so.

I think that Republican tactics have marginalized the left to the point that we will have to organize more before we can win elections in any party.

And if we can win elections, why not just win democratic primaries, because it is the quickest way to get into a position where we can reform election laws and have a real green party.

[Disturbed]

48. I feel that the Green Party stands for...

what most progressives in the Dem Party stand for, as well. The problem is that the Green Party does not have the clout and funding it requires at this time to win Natl. seats. It could do so if Dems that feel that the Dem Party does not represent most of thier views would drop out and join the Greens.

[K-W]

50. You didnt answer my question.

If so many democrats want to vote for progressives, why don't progressives win democratic primaries?

Wake up, its 2005, the right has changed the playing field. People are literally scared of the left.

We need to fix that problem, and once we do there will be no obstruction to electing progressives in the democratic party, which would then become the easiest tool to use to fix the system so we could have a real ideologically consistant green party.

We need proportional representation, or some other major structural reform to have actual ideological parties and not just 2 major broker parties. But those changes can only be made by using on of those broker parties to get control of the government.

We need to build a movement capable of winning elections, then win democratic primaries, then win general elections, then reform the system, then we can all vote for people we agree with.

Your strategy is to just

[Octafish]

51. Get 'em the fuck out of town.

If they think that we're the problem, they must be with Bush.

[me b zola]

54. kickie-poo

right in the corporate butts of the DLCx(

[ngGale]

56. If I remember correctly...

the majority of the Dem party was against the Iraq war to begin with.
There are hitting their base again, going in the opposite direction.
Boy, this is progress!