Are most American Catholics consistently pro-life?

[MoonRiver]

By this I mean are they, on average, against abortion and the death penalty, against one but not the other, or against neither? I know the Pope was consistent in this regard, but I really don't know much about beliefs of mainstream Catholics. I am particularly curious about Catholic DUers' positions on these issues. Although I adamantly support a woman's right to choose, I do respect those who demonstrate ethical consistency.

[mattclearing]

1. I don't know.

And you probably won't find anyone polling on it this week. ;)

I'd guess it's pretty evenly split. Most want to do away with the vow of chastity so that married men can preach, and many want women to be able to do so as well.

I think most Catholics know that their church is slower than mud to change.

You can probably figure it out if there's a poll on party identification. If a Catholic is a Dem, chances are they are pro-choice.

[MoonRiver]

3. Well, what surprises me is how many Cahtolic DUers there are.

I'm kind of, but not entirely, surprised by this. John Kerry is a Catholic and also pro-choice. But I get the impression that this is a rare viewpoint. I'm just asking to understand better what Catholics' beliefs are. Catholics used to be a huge part of the Democratic base. But the abortion issue has fractured that relationship. However, I would think that the death penalty issue would fracture them off from the Repub party, making the entire political allegiance thing a wash for Catholics. This doesn't seem to be the case though, as I THINK they tend to vote Repub. Am I wrong?

[Merope215]

38. I don't think it's rare at all

I think about abortion the same way Kerry does - probably wouldn't have one myself, but don't think it's up to me to tell anyone else what they can do. If it's not my body, it's not my business.

The death penalty doesn't get as much play as abortion does among Catholics (in general) or the society, I think. I feel that it may have something to do with the relative numbers of each (I think there are a couple of million abortions every year, but probably only a few dozen executions, if that - but I could be wrong, so if someone has numbers, I'll stand corrected). Also, poor wittle babies are easier for many people to feel sympathy for than unattractive people in orange jumpsuits, most of whom are black and scary-looking anyway. :eyes: I know that the death penalty itself is racist in practice, but I also think there is racism at work in how much (or how little) attention gets paid to it. There is also the fact that most people see babies as innocent, whereas people on death row, while they might be (and very possibly are) innocent of whatever they're being executed for, are not, simply by virtue of having lived. (There's also, of course, the far-right notion that even if you didn't kill anyone, if you're on death row you must have done something wrong - a point I find both idiotic and morally reprehensible.)

If the death penalty were made into a bigger issue, you might see more political fracturing of Catholics along those lines. As it is, it just doesn't get the same attention - no crowds of raving pro-lifers holding vigils at prisons or anything like that. I do think that the death penalty should be getting more attention among Catholics. I'm actually going to go hear Sr. Helen Prejean tomorrow - she's coming to my own campus Catholic church, and I'm very excited about it.

Just my $.02.


Edited to clarify: In case the eyes weren't strong enough, that was meant to be sarcastic...I don't want anyone to think I was being serious about that!

[MoonRiver]

45. The difference in numbers between abortions and executions

explains a lot. I am against abortions at the point when a fetus is viable, around the seventh month. But I would never support a candidate who wasn't pro-choice. Glad to see there are so many Catholics who agree!

[Lone Pawn]

60. Catholics are split nearly 50-50.

I personally count myself as a Catholic Democrat. And I am pro-choice.

[Pirate Smile]

14. Aren't 60% of Dems in Congress Catholic? Someone posted that

stat on a different thread this weekend.

John Kerry being pro-choice is entirely NOT unusual for a American Catholic.

[MoonRiver]

17. Wow! That's amazing if true. But considering that Catholic and Democrat

used to be almost synonymous, maybe not.

[Pirate Smile]

23. Remember Kerry saying he didn't feel he had the right to impose his

religious belief on others? That is how a lot of Catholics, I think, view abortion.

They don't personally like it (who really does) but they know there are many complicated and tragic situations - the whole "there but for the grace of God go I". It is easy to judge other people when you aren't the one in the situation - most people realize that.

edit to add - even the RW'er Catholics I know don't follow the no birth control crap.

Most people just think some of these "rules" are decided by a bunch of celebate, childless men so they dismiss it.

God is also supposed to be a loving, forgiving God and it seems patently ridiculous that with all the terrible things in the world going on that God would have a big problem with Birth Control. Common Sense will override religious doctorine.

[MoonRiver]

28. Yes, that makes sense.

We've just come to associate all against abortion with the raving lunatic fringe, toting machine guns and ready to kill anybody disagreeing with their "pro-life" stance.
:crazy:

[CornField]

2. The Catholics I know are publically pro-life, privately pro-choice

In their own lives, they use birth control and a few have had first trimester abortions (one had a late abortion due to fetal demise). Those things are private and kept that way.

While they do not protest abortion clinics or place anti-abortion stickers on their vehicles, they do sit quietly in church as the priest blasts the pro-life sentiment. They all nod to one another publically and make their own decisions in private.

[MoonRiver]

6. I suppose the logical next question is why they remain Catholics?

If one's behavior is at such variance with church policy, I, personally, don't understand how somebody could remain affiliated with that church.

[minerva50]

15. I have quit organized religion, my mom has become an Episcopalian.

Mother feels very resentful that she had to leave the church. She feels it really ought to be "her" church. She was raised up in it, she went along with the birth control stuff and had eight children, it's part of her culture and heritage. But they've become a one-issue institution. The pro-life and anti-women attitudes have alienated her.

[yankeedem]

16. If you believe in the Constitution, it's not hard

Pro-life for me, Pro-Choice for everyone else. Just like John Kerry.

[MoonRiver]

21. Yes, but I'm talking about those who support abortion rights.

The Vatican does not.

[alcuno]

47. I think that Catholics see abortion in terms of a sin.

But we distinguish between a personal sin and a law. The Church says that abortion is a mortal sin but we rationalize that the sin lies with the individual.

Remember, Church teaching has always said that if YOU don't believe that you have sinned, you haven't.

[Reverend_Smitty]

50. That is such a great way to put it...

I've always had trouble explaining my personal beliefs on abortion. I feel that my own beliefs are my own and shouldn't have to apply to anyone else.

I am a liberal, somewhat lapsed Catholic

[barb162]

41. I think that's pretty accurate. One more thing, they get their

daughters on birth control pills early so that there are no "mistakes" while their daughters are dating

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. My best friend is Catholic and pro-Choice.

Then we have the Dr. I worked with, a Catholic, who actually tried to practice the rhythm method until they had 6 kids, one year apart....then it was convenient and OK to use birth control....against the Church's beliefs. He and his wife are anti-choice. Those are the only Catholics I have had any contact with.

[MoonRiver]

9. There must be an incredible allure to stay in a faith, when one feels

a need to break its tenets. I think that says a lot about the power and attraction of the Catholic church.

[adwon]

18. It's home

Please bear in mind: there is the Catholic clergy and the Catholic laity. The clergy say whatever floats into their heads and we remain Catholic despite it. After all, WE are the church.

I can honor and grieve for the pope without agreeing with him very often. Why? He's the father for the church and disagreeing with dad doesn't mean you hate him. It just means you disagree.

[MoonRiver]

20. Oh, well that is different. Still it seems it would be difficult to stay

with such differences in beliefs between laity and clergy.

[adwon]

25. Not really

Family's family, you know? Not that different from remaining in America when it's run by morons. :P

[MoonRiver]

29. Got it!

:hug:

[Pirate Smile]

42. You just kind of feel like you are born Catholic, like you are born

Irish-American, Italian-American, Hispanic, African-American, etc.

It doesn't define you, it is just part of what you are - I don't know if that makes sense or not but it is kind of how I feel.

I'm not sure how it works for converts.

[MoonRiver]

46. Although I wasn't raised Catholic that does make sense.

[Pirate Smile]

48. You don't have to go to mass or anything. It is just there - that is why

there are so many lapsed Catholics.

[eridani]

78. That is exactly it.

Protestants, when they disagree with their church, typically feel that this means that they need to form a new sect or branch. Catholics just stay Catholic and disagree. A pro-choice Catholic I know of refused to accept the reality of excommunication. As she put it "For the Pope to tell me I'm not Catholic would be like him trying to tell me I'm not Italian." She figures if the church is big enough for both Francis of Assisi and Torquemada, then there's plenty of room for her.

[Selteri]

5. They falla bout the same lines as everything else in this country. NT

[HockeyMom]

10. Never

knew any Catholic family who had more than 2 or 3 kids. Must be a lot of infertile Catholics around my neck of the woods. Besides which, if they are anti abortion according to the Catholic Church, then they must consider birth control pill and IUD as abortion too. Condoms may not be abortion, but even that goes against "God's will". Seems to me to be a big divide between what they preach and what they practice.

[Pirate Smile]

7. The Catholics I know generally believe what corresponds to their

political point of view.

My Catholic RW in-laws are anti-abortion, pro-death penalty. I believe they were for the Iraq War - they are Republicans! We don't talk politics anymore. Although my FIL used to be OK with gun control and did question the whole build up for the Iraq War, I'm sure he jumped on the bandwagon. They watch Faux News constantly. FIL sometimes listens to Rush.

The Clinton Administration was a time of polarization for them (FIL in particular). This is when Rush and Faux News started. Reasonable people became illogical, partisans during this time period.

Most Catholics, either on the right or left, are Cafeteria Catholics.

[NNN0LHI]

8. My Catholic parents think abortion for people of color is a great idea

They are pro-death penalty for people of color also. I guess that is pretty consistent?

Don

[Old and In the Way]

11. I think the trend is that active church goers are becoming increasingly

"pro-life"....primarily because liberal/progressive Catholics are leaving. So I suspect that it is becoming a lot more socilaay conservative than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

[MoonRiver]

12. Seems that when the cognitive dissonance becomes acute enough

people leave. But there are many DUers who seem to be quite outspoken Democrats and Catholics. Maybe these people will work hard to move the church to a more rational position. I hope.

[Old and In the Way]

26. Hard to be a Catholic in good standing and be a Democrat.

If they can make life Hell for John Kerry, I guess that sends a message to the rest of us mere mortals. Funny, I don't remember any complaints from the Chuirch when John Kennedy was running for President.

And I say that as a Jesuit educated (8 years), ex-Catholic.

[MoonRiver]

39. It seems that Roe v. Wade wasn't law when Kennedy was elected.

I can't quite remember the history though. But maybe Kennedy didn't have to take a stand on that issue.

[Pirate Smile]

43. True - pre-Roe vs Wade in 1973

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. There Was A Good Editorial In Today's NYT By Sister

Helen Prejean who was the subject of the film "Dead Man Walking"...


She wrote that thanks to the Pope's opposition to the death penalty a slim majority of the Catholics now oppose the death penalty...

I'm not a Catholic but my Christian beliefs have moved me to oppose abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia, and unjust wars...

[MoonRiver]

19. Regarding your opposition to abortion,

how do you cope with being on DU? I respect your beliefs, but opposing abortion is not a comfortable posture to take here.
:D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Believe Abortions Should Be Safe , Legal, And Rare...

If a woman asked my counsel I would counsel against terminating her pregnancy but ultimately it's her decision to make....


I believe in a true culture of life from our first breath to our last breath and every breath in between...


I'm not Catholic so I'm not bound by their restrictions on birth control which strikes me as draconian...

[MoonRiver]

24. I agree with all of that, although I would not advise a pregnant woman

one way or the other. But I certainly would prefer that abortions very rarely occurred. Of course that means making sure children receive early sex education and birth control on demand.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I Meant To Say If A Woman Sought My Counsel...

I wouldn't impose my opinion on someone who didn't solicit it...


It's physically possible to eliminate almost all unwanted pregnancies as condom failures or birth control pill failures are low...

[MoonRiver]

32. Early education and easy access to birth control are the answers.

What's wrong in this country is that the radical rightwing thinks it can threaten and intimidate children into not being sexual until the "adults" decide they should be. This almost always backfires and tragedies result.

[mother earth]

34. Even Catholics practice birth control, or they'd all still be

having six and seven children. Come on, it's outdated & even the church realizes that. There will be change on the horizon with a new Pope.

[Old and In the Way]

30. Take a poll on who "likes" abortion here.....

I think you'll find the answer to be "0". But we understand the fundemental right of all women to have that option. We just won't be hypocrits on this issue.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Exactly...

I am far from a prude when it comes to sexuality but I believe every abortion to some extent represents a failure on the part of society because most unwanted pregnancies can be avoided through the use of male and female contraceptives...

[LdyGuique]

44. I think the issue is "other" --

The "Church" had a long standing and complex view about sexual activity -- and viewed women as the seducers. The entire celibacy issue of Priests, Nuns, and Monks is part of the issue. Church tradition for centuries was that if one had sex for any reason other than to conceive a child, it was a sin. Hence, all of the anti-gay mentality. This viewpoint hinges on no contraception, as one would be having sex without the purpose of conception.

I knew a man back in Harrisburg who was married to a woman who had become "fundamentalist" Catholic -- one of those who attended church where latin was still used, etc. They already had six children, and she would only consent to sex IF procreation were the goal -- he'd not had sex with her in several years.

This is a very difficult and complex issue that goes back to the early church fathers. It runs like a thread throughout the entire issue of birth control and all types of sexual behavior. It is unlikely that a conclave of men who have forsworn sex and have been lifelong indoctrinated into church beliefs will ever consider the entire issue of sex rationally and dispassionately.

The believe is as much anti-sex for fun as it is anti-conception and anti-abortion.

[Old and In the Way]

62. I've always believed that "sex for fun" was always the underlying

(if unspoken) message on the Church's position of sexuality. Of course, this being ordained by those that can't have sex....and that gets into a whole 'nother aspect of the people who are attracted to a sex-free life. There's a lot of unhealthy, maladjusted people who have other motives for becoming priests (not necessarily pedophiles....could be issues with the opposite sex, impotence, deep rooted psychological problems with their mothers/fathers, etc.).

Can't have a serious discussion about hell, if people are busy being hedonists...

[Pirate Smile]

77. About your "sex for fun" comment. Last weekend, on TV,I heard a priest

say that the reason the Church says sex is only OK for procreation is because if it is done for recreation, that can lead to premarital sex, extramarital sex, and homosexual sex, all of which can lead to the breakdown of the family unit (paraphrasing - it was something to this effect).

Does anyone really believe this is what most Catholics, even married Catholics follow? I think not!

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. It depends.

I'd say about half of us oppose abortion privately, but recognize that it is constitutionally protected; the other half oppose it privately and work to make it illegal.

[mother earth]

31. I speak as a pro-choice Catholic...

While I would never want to make the choice, I believe it has a place and should be legal and available to those seeking it, the alternative is worst and since people will always have abortions, legalized abortion is the lesser of two evils. Death penalty...I believe in this for extreme and "no question of innocence" cases. You can still be Catholic and realize the church does not have all the answers. I am anti-war, but also believe sometimes you must fight to defend...thanks, I feel my Democratic beliefs tie very nicely to my religious choices. Where's the conflict? I don't think anyone agrees with their church 100%, nor with their political party 100%, or anyone else including your spouse 100%. Are any of you 100% followers? I hope not.

[MoonRiver]

35. I appreciate yout input. You have to understand that much of what

non-Catholics know about your beliefs come from our Republican biased media. They try to portray all Catholics as huge * supporters. I have been curious about all the DU Catholics and am just trying to understand what makes you guys tick (:D). Clearly, there are a lot of dedicated Catholic Democrats. YAY!!!!
:bounce:

[mother earth]

36. Absolutely, have never supported Repubs., ever.

[Pirate Smile]

49. IMHO showing your religion on your sleeve was looked down on

by Catholics.

You get no brownie points acting like you are super religious and devout. Do your thing and keep it to yourself. It is between you and God.

That is a big difference I've noticed between Catholics I grew up with (and the way I think Kerry was used to practicing his Catholicism) and this new requirement from some Protestant sects that you run around preaching like an evangelical minister.

[Merope215]

55. It typically is

My entire extended family on both sides is Catholic, and it's just never been considered necessary or appropriate to talk about it unless someone asks first. I guess Catholics got all missionaried out a couple of centuries ago and don't feel the need to proselytize.

To be honest, I've been participating in a few of these threads, and although I feel like it's necessary to identify myself as a Catholic for the benefit of fellow DUers, it really makes me uncomfortable. So I guess there you have it - I'm living proof of that reticence. :P

I think it has a lot to do with the Catholic emphasis on works, as opposed than the Protestant emphasis on faith.

[Pirate Smile]

59. That is a huge difference that i don't think was sufficiently understood

during the election.

Kerry said (quite a few times) faith without deeds or works is dead which makes perfect sense to me and is a big part of what drives me nuts about Bush and these so-called "Christian" RW'ers.

If you spout off about how "Christian" you are yet you don't try to help the poor, the helpless, fight against an unjust war etc., I think you are a fraud.

I did a search for Kerry's statement re faith w/o works comment, and I found many Protestant sites all confused by it. They didn't get it. They didn't think how you treated people, how you live your life, etc makes any difference.

That is an enormous gulf between Catholicism and some of these other Protestant sects. It helped explain to me how they can rationalize all these incredibly hypocritical actions by the Republicans.

Of course, I think they are totally wrong and it seems so friggin warped to me.

That may also explain why a larger percentage of Catholics and those raised Catholic are Democrats.

[Merope215]

64. Exactly

I was so happy when Kerry said that during whichever debate it was. "Finally!" I thought. "He's just hit the nail on the head and exposed this huge hypocrisy in Bush's faux religiosity!" But nobody seemed to get it, and I think the public's inability to understand that was a big factor. It wasn't really talked about much - we heard all about how "religious" Bush is, blah blah blah, but not much about Kerry, because he doesn't believe in shoving it in everyone's face. The GOP was able to frame that as a moral issue because people associated outward displays of faith with moral trustworthiness, even though Kerry was clearly the one with the intact moral compass.

I figure that with regard to all people claiming to be Christian, you shall know them by their fruits, so to speak. If you're going to talk the talk, you'd better be walking the walk. Otherwise, sit down and shut up.

I'm really glad you brought that up. It struck me as a huge issue in the campaign - I thought it was really key to understanding both candidates' worldviews - but it got almost no play in the MSM. Figures.

[Pirate Smile]

67. At one of the debates Kerry said that he doesn't believe he has the

right to impose his own personal, religious beliefs on others (re abortion).

Discussing the comment on MSNBC's Hardball, one RW fundie said that what Kerry had said made absolutely no sense. Catholic Tweety chimed in "it makes total sense to me".

I think there may be a bigger gulf then we realize.

[Nobody]

40. My republican Catholic father is pro-choice

He even confronted harassers at a medical clinic.

[Cleita]

51. I have known Catholics who were pro-death penalty. Many are

also okay with war if it's a just war. I don't think anyone supports this Iraqi mess unless they are sorely misinformed.

[WI_DEM]

52. Most polls I've seen indicate that a majority of Catholics are pro-choice

and I'm a Catholic who is pro-choice.

[Princess Turandot]

53. I think religions have core theological tenets, interpretations of tenets

that change over time, and notions about how religious tenets should translate into social policy. Catholicism hasn't changed its core theological tenets significantly in 2,000 years. Social policy impacted by those tenets has changed quite a bit over time. In the early centuries of the Church priests could marry, as an example. Additionally, as mankind has progressed, things which the Popes of 500 years ago didn't need to dwell upon much, such as birth control, suddenly needed to be addressed. It's in social policy where most Catholics take issue with the position of the Church at any one time.(For example, Mel Gibson belongs to a breakaway sect which among other things thought that God decreed that the Mass be said only in Latin.)

I consider myself to be Catholic. I support the US abortion law established under Row v Wade, but I support it more because I believe with all my heart that there are far worse things that may befall an unwanted child than 'never having been physically born', as opposed to a Bill of Rights argument. (I don't disagree with the 'my body, my rights' perspective at all; it's simply not the most important factor in my own calculus of this question.) I also believe in the very rare use of the death penalty, which I think should be based upon federal guidelines and not left to states who seem to be too enthusiastic to execute men of color. I think people convicted of premeditated multiple murders or kidnappers who kill, might be worthy of execution, not to protect society but rather as the appropriate punishment. Timothy McVeigh. Ted Bundy. Susan Smith. The sociopaths of the world, not people who commit homicide in the heat of passion or circumstances such as robbing a bank. The latter deserve LWOP at most but they are the people most commonly executed.

I believe that birth control is not a religious issue, at all. Most US, European & South American women practice birth control, according to the UN, so I suspect that means most Catholics do as well. And I suspect that were the Catholic Church to start ordering Catholics to use condoms tomorrow, it would have little to do with reducing the spread of HIV since the countries where HIV is spreading among heterosexuals are not countries with very many Catholics at all. And, then there are the selfish males who already know that condoms might prevent the transmission of HIV and would not use them anyway even if Christ himself suggested that they do so.I also don't think that divorce, as another social teaching, is a sin.I would not think it was a sin even if the Church did not allow for 'annulments' which are often divorces in just another name.

So why do I consider myself a Catholic? First, I grew up as one and have never had a personal reaction so strong against the Church which would cause me to disavow it. Also, I think the Catholic Church despite its warts most consistently teaches the Greatest Commandment, and emphasizes that faith without service may not be faith at all. It teaches conscience over knee-jerk "go straight to heaven 'cause I've just been saved' no matter how I live my life." It embodies the words of our Founders: 'we hold this truth to be self-evident: that all men are created equal'. To me, it's a faith which has had many great thinkers, and encourages thought by its nature, even if it may get you into trouble at some point in time, a la Galileo. Faith which does not provoke thought, even if contraversial ones, is what Fundamentalism is. That's not Catholicism, even if I know we have some of them in our midst.

As a postscript, I must add that I try hard not to be a hypocrite in most things. Accordingly, I do not receive the Sacrament of Communion when I go to Mass, because I do not attend Mass each Sunday and that is considered serious enough of a lapse to require confession in order to receive Communion. I suspect that not everyone I see marching up to the altar to receive communion are as consistent, especially since some of them are people whom I know.

[bush_is_wacko]

54. Catholics routinely follow the church doctrine that they support and

ignore the doctrine they don't. I don't know statistics but I can assure you MANY Catholics are pro-choice for others but would never choose abortion for themselves. And many others would only admit to something like that in the privacy of the confessional. Catholics are really far more lenient than the church would have you believe. At least that is my experience and EVERY side of my family is Catholic. BTW, we all consider ourselves "liberals' too! There is only ONE Republican in the group at least in this neck of the woods (there is ONE more, but he lives several thousand miles away from here) and he doesn't dare attempt to express his views anymore because he is shot down from all directions. He considers himself a Lutheran. Where and when he became one, I don't know. It's almost like he is a plant!

[flyarm]

56. not this catholic!!

but i am a non practicing because of the churches stand on birth control and womens issues...and abortion..i believe what a woman does is her own damn business!! and i believe no man or other party has the right to say a darned thing!! especially men who run a church who have never been married or who have practiced abuse of children!!

fly

[Kathy in Cambridge]

57. Not in the Boston area

I had nuns that we're pro-choice growing up. Father Robert Drinan, an attorney-priest, served as a Democratic representative from Massachusetts in Congress from 1971 until 1981, when Pope John Paul II ordered him to choose between politics and the priesthood.

http://www.abanews.org/releases/news062804.html

He was adamantly pro-choice, and this got him in trouble with the Church hierarchy.

[Pirate Smile]

72. On CNN tonight, Larry King asked Sister Helen Prejean if she agreed

with the Church's teachings on abortion and birth control.

Her answer was (paraphrase) that she appreciated that her faith allows her to both listen to the Church's teachings and consult with her own conscience to decide these things.

I think that may explain how many Catholics are pro-choice but don't feel the need to completely repudiate the Church at the same time.

[cap]

58. 62% prochoice...95% used contraception at least once

eom

[sonicx]

68. interesting. do you have a link to the poll?

Maybe i'm naive, but the contraception number looks a little high.

[mmonk]

61. Pretty much like everyone else.

Do other people follow or believe everything their clergy says? If they don't should they remain whatever they are? The way I see it, I'm not going to quit one for the other. What's the use? I'll freely admit I'm Catholic in some areas but privately agnostic, so switching if you're agnostic doesn't really matter. But I know some want to have something they can believe totally in. For me, reality is just fine.

[leesa]

63. They seem to like war, so I would have to say no.

[mmonk]

65. They do, eh? All of them?

[sonicx]

70. I don't know about that. Even Mel Gibson was against Iraq.

[dsc]

66. I think many are

Bonior is an example as was Casey Sr. You can find high profile examples that are totally consistent, inconsistent by being pro choice but against the death penalty (Cuomo), and inconsistent by bening pro life but in favor of the death penalty (Jeb Bush).

[cap]

71. Hmmm.. I have yet to meet a Catholic who was...

pro-life, anti-contraceptive, against euthanasia, against homosexuals, anti-war, pro social justice, against the death penalty...

when you find one let me know...

[sonicx]

73. not sure about the pro "social justice" part, but I think Mel Gibson is...

all of that.

[dsc]

74. Kucinich came very close

until he flipped on abortion and gay rights. Casey Sr. also was quite close (I don't know about the war thing in his case). Bonior was all of those except maybe anti homosexual (I don't know his rating of the top of my head).

[CatholicEdHead]

69. Yes, pro-life, but not pro-abortion

I do know that overturning RvW will not magically solve all abortion problems. If you bring up the lowest people, then they will CHOOSE to have the child or have it adopted.

[Donailin]

75. I'm pro-life, but pro-choice

the fact that no one comes out of having an abortion feeling all happy like they were just cured of cancer tells us that abortion is not something good. It makes us feel bad because we know what's going on. However, making it illegal will never stop abortions, only education will.

I've taken my children to pro life rallies from the time they were able to talk. I used to explain to them what abortion was and since they were young, they understood it as one of their own being eliminated. And I do not regret this. I wanted to make that impact on them early on, in a subconscious way. I never want my sons to impregnate their teen age girlfriend, and the thought of my 13 year old daughter getting pregnant is . . horrible. And that's why I talk very openly about sex with them now that they are all teens. I tell them about all my mistakes and my regrets. Parents MUST do this. If you try to come off as never having made a mistake, they just will not take you seriously. But when you share with your children the lessons you've learned the hard way, they really respect you and take it to heart. I try to make them understand that when all is said and done, physical intimacy is exposing and giving of one's body, one's self, to another and that this is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. How many of us have those experiences where we think we are in love and we share the most intimate moment with someone who we end up breaking off with a month later? And then we feel bad about ourselves for not thinking ahead. We think, "How could I have done that, s/he's such a jerk. If only I had known." I tell them that their hormones are going to dictate their actions if they let them. It goes like this: "Please memorize that thought. Hormones can control you if you let them, but if you can muster some self control, you can have a very special intimacy without the regret and without the degradation of your self esteem, because in the end, casual sex with someone who you end up disliking or who ends up disliking you chips away at your self esteem, you will feel bad about yourself. And worse, you could get pregnant or get someone pregnant, and you know that is not something you want" It took me YEARS to figure that out. I do encourage a certain chastisty, but not a total chastity. And I do tell them that if they cannot control those hormones, then please use protection. I emphasize that just as much as the rest. But mostly, I want them to have a healthy outlook on sexuality. Of course it feels good. Of course it's part of being human, but your sexual activity is all wrapped up in your sexual and emotional psyche. Protect it, share it with the person who proves they will not take it for granted or abuse it. Hopefully, someone they will spend the rest of their life with. Hopefully.

[zalinda]

76. My uncle who is a priest

is pro-life and pro-choice. Many Catholics have figured out that being pro-choice does not mean you are pro-abortion.

zalinda