A POLL: Will You Be Joining The "Minutemen" To Defend The Fatherland?

[Itsthetruth]

Will you be packing your AK-47 or other weapon to join the "Minutemen" to stop those sneaky Mexicans, terrorists and commies, who can't even speak American, from crossing our sacred borders?

[Itsthetruth]

1. This Is An Objective Poll

This is a totally objective poll with absolutely no liberal or left-wing bias.

Your comments are welcomed.:)

[bryant69]

2. From what I hear they aren't allowed to have rifles

Also this particular protest will trivialize a serious problem that has a number of ramifications.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[slackmaster]

26. AZ law guarantees right to open carry of rifles, handguns, and shotguns

They are restricted in populated areas, but not out in the boonies.

[davidinalameda]

3. have to think about that one

maybe I'll just go the Mission and look for undocumented workers there

and get some damn good Mexican food while I'm at it

[democracyindanger]

6. I'll take Puerto Allegre. You cover Pancho Villa Taqueria.

[XemaSab]

23. I already covered the Sierra Taqueria

in Oakhurst, CA.

Found some Mexican food so good, it should be deported.

[FSogol]

28. I'll cover the Sierra Nevada Pale Ales....

and play some Minutemen records tonight. Will that help?

[XemaSab]

33. I was sort of thinking

Red Tail Ale and Modest Mouse tonight, but it's good to keep our bases covered.

[davidinalameda]

44. you are so on!

yum!

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. I'll be joining when the neocons come to pick up my...

sons for boot camp.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. No, but I think we need a DU anti- minuteman/woman vigilante

group to go after the Minutemen who are trying to stop those sneaky Mexicans.

Why isn't the government stopping those nutjobs? They should be arrested.

[Walt Starr]

10. Precisely what law are they breaking?

I see them UPHOLDING the law. Not a single law has been broken by them to date.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. Someone will be killed.

I suppose that's OK as long as they're "Mexican." :eyes: Yeah. Bring back vigilantism.....I'll finally buy me my AK 47.

[Walt Starr]

14. Oh, so you advocate arresting people because it's possible they could

kill somebody.

Under that logic every United States citizen should be arrested immediately.

:eyes:

They are observing and reporting and so far, they've reported 118 people entering the country illegally. There is absolutely nothing illegal in that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. When they kill someone, will that be illegal? n/t

[Walt Starr]

17. Don't you mean "if" they kill somebody?

Until you word your question properly, I won't answer it. You have buiilt a strawman under the dalse assumption that it's a forgone conclusion the Minutement will kill somebody.

[Itsthetruth]

19. Does Wounding Count?

eom

[Walt Starr]

22. Sorry, you are making no sense

Please, ask a real question and not something based upon false assumptions.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. Okey...dokey...IF they kill someone will that be illegal? n/t

[Walt Starr]

27. It depends upon the circumstances of the killing

Under the law of most states, reacting with deadly force when faced with deadly force is reasonable and legal. If the Minuteman feels their life is in danger by a gun wielding opponent and he severely wounds or kills the opponent, it could very easily be 100% legal, depending upon jurisdiction and the laws of Arizona.

I can envision a potential scenario where this could happen as there was an article about a very violent international gang that was planning on targeting the Minutemen. Doing so would open up a scenario whereby the Minutemen could legally kill those who are using deadly force against them.

Furthermore, there is a lot of criminal activity along the border and criminals are known to be armed and dangerous at times. Should drug couriers decide they should kill the Minutemne and end up getting killed by the Minutemen in their attempt, the Minutemen would be acting in accordance with the law in most cases.

I believe both scenarios are extremely unlikely, though. The actions of the Minutemen to date indicate they want to observe and report. Nothing more. This is 100% legal.

[Kingshakabobo]

49. Isn't THIS enough reason to leave it to the professionals?

You wrote:
"Furthermore, there is a lot of criminal activity along the border and criminals are known to be armed and dangerous at times. Should drug couriers decide they should kill the Minutemen and end up getting killed by the Minutemen in their attempt, the Minutemen would be acting in accordance with the law in most cases."

If both you and the "Minutemen" believe there is a potential for violence then don't you think there is a possibility someone is going to go all hair-triggered and kill some poor innocent?

Legal, yes, but I would prefer leaving law enforcement to the TRAINED professionals.

[DoNotRefill]

65. You're missing the whole point....

what they're doing is spotting illegal activity and then calling the cops. They're not stopping the people. They're not harassing the people. They're just calling the cops and telling them where they are.

If you call the cops because you see somebody killing somebody else, does that mean you're responsible for the criminal activity? Does your calling the cops justify the murderer killing you too?

[Kingshakabobo]

75. They are vigilantes. And they are disrupting law enforcement.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050405/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers_5

Nuff said:

[Walt Starr]

70. The same danger faces every resident in some U.S. urban areas

Sorry, the truth hurts. They have a legal right to be there and they have a legal right to carry arms. Your indignation does not negate those rights.

[Kingshakabobo]

71. Thanks for pointing out my "indignation". I didn't know I was. n/t

[Walt Starr]

76. You're welcome. Glad I could help. n/t

[datasuspect]

55. a dehydrated mexican looking for work is a formidable foe

"if it bleeds we can kill it"

oy

[Walt Starr]

69. Strawman

You've just built a strawman argument so you can knock it down.

Nobody has been shot. All I did was to relate a scenario whereby a Minuteman could legally shoot and kill somebody.

[Shrek]

18. Of course it would be illegal

But what does killing have to do with watching the border and reporting illegal activity to the Border Patrol? Cannot one be done without the other?

[Itsthetruth]

24. They Comin To Our Neighborhood?

Will they be coming into my neighborhood to look for suspicious activity and foreign looking or speaking people?

Perhaps they can team up with the FBI to find and round-up all those un-American types.

Defend The Fatherland!

[Shrek]

32. If they report illegal activity in my neighborhood

Then I'm all for it.

Why wouldn't I want the police alerted to crimes in progress where I live?

:shrug:

[Itsthetruth]

36. Your Papers Please!

Crimes like not having proper papers? Mmmmmmmmmm

Can't you dial 911 in your neighborhood if you see a crime in progress or shall we rely on Minutemen to protect us from people engaged in "suspicious" activity .... like speaking in a foreign tongue or going to "radical" meetings?

[Shrek]

37. Certainly I can call 911 if I witness a crime

But if I don't see it and someone else does, I don't mind if that individual calls 911 in my stead. In fact, I hope that he does so.

[Walt Starr]

38. WTF are you talking about?

And what bearing does it have on this issue?

[Walt Starr]

30. It could actually be legal if they killed somebody depending upon the

circumstances. See Post #27.

[DoNotRefill]

64. And if they are....

It'd be dismissed at arraignment. They're not breaking the law. Not even a little bit. You, on the other hand, are advocating arresting people who haven't committed a crime because you don't like their political activism. Great precedent there...

[Walt Starr]

7. Since I don't agree with the rest of the snarky choices

I guess that makes me a rightwingnut.

:shrug:

[Shrek]

11. Same here

I don't see a problem with it.

What's the big deal?

:shrug:

[Scurrilous]

8. Will there be donuts? n/t

[Itsthetruth]

16. Yes!

After the Minutemen pick the pockets of people they "capture" there will be plenty of money for coffee and donuts!

And if we're real lucky .... we might find a few Spanish types without proper papers at Taco Bell! If we're packin, I bet the food will be on the house!

Yahooooooooo!

[DBoon]

9. Missing option:

I would if their singer/guitarist hadn't been killed in a tragic auto accident.

[Deja Q]

13. I'd say most people would be apathetic. Why help people who have

proven themselves to be greedy, arrogant, and selfish while claiming to be Christians? (Christianity is the OPPOSITE of greed, arerogance, and selfishness.)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. All they need is those cool armbands with the swastika on 'em.

[Redstone]

25. No, I'm too busy spying on my neighbors.

After all, some people here are saying that when we see a job the government isn't doing well enough, we should jump in and help.

I'm helping them find any subversives in this part of the state who should be on the "no-fly" list and aren't, because the government hasn't had the resources to check all of them out.

Just doin' my patriotic duty, is all.

Redstone

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Do you have binoculars and a telescope?

They help you look in your neighbor's windows and you can get an "up close and personal view." You can also get a bugging device at your local electronics store....then you can even HEAR what they're saying. A motion sensor may come in handy so you will know when they are coming and going. <sarcasm>

This vigilantism is going down a slippery slope.

[DoNotRefill]

67. using binoculars or a telescope to look in other people's windows...

is criminal. Using them to look on public or open land isn't.

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. It was a joke. I was being sarcastic. n/t

[Shrek]

35. Reporting crimes to law enforcement has always been a citizen prerogative

It's not a matter of "a job the government isn't doing well enough" because very few crimes are actually witnessed by those employed in law enforcement.

Citizen participation in the process is vital and it makes no sense to pretend otherwise.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. Would you report a neighbor for smoking pot?

That's illegal. Would you report a neighbor for downloading a movie....pirating it? Or would you report a neighbor for downloading music from a questionable INTERNET source (shared/free)? Where do we draw the line here? Are we selective in our "citizen prerogative reporting of crimes?" Do we report only crimes brown skinned people commit?

[Shrek]

43. See, that's the beauty of it

If you have no objection to the crime, don't report it. If it's illegal and it bothers you, then make the call.

But if you don't like the fact that it's illegal, then use the democratic process to change the law; don't complain that your fellow citizens are asking for it to be enforced.

[in_cog_ni_to]

45. Use the democratic process to change the law? WHAT democratic process?

It's gone! The repukes and the vigilantes have taken over. Remember? And standing by and LETTING them take over is NOT going to help.

[Shrek]

46. In the absence of a Democratic administration

No crimes should be reported or nor laws enforced? Is that really what you're trying to say?

Just out of curiosity, what about laws signed by Clinton or Carter or Johnson? Would it be okay to enforce those, or report violations thereof?

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. No. That's not what I'm saying.

What I said was..."What democratic process?" It doesn't exist under this regime. Well, maybe it does for the wealthy, powerful and elite Washington DC politicians, but not for the average Joe.

Where did I say I didn't think crimes should be reported? I think this crap is SELECTIVE. It all depends on the color of your skin and how much money you have. What about the WEALTHY Mexicans who legally flies here and just stays? A Millionaire Mexican who owns an oil field. Will he be sent back? Hell no he won't be. Only the poor with no money will be.

Vigilantism is playing right into the Militia's/freeper's/repuke's hands. Hunt down them there poor Mexicans. :( This is disgusting. IMCPO. I suggest spending some money on Homeland Security/Border patrol instead of nut case, bigoted, wacko, gun toting jerks forming vigilante groups, but then, what the hell do I know? Maybe this is how you want to live? :shrug:

[Shrek]

57. If they become a vigilante group then I'll agree with you

To date, they've done nothing but observe the border and report criminal activity. Anything beyond that is left to the Border Patrol or other proper authorities.

If that's all they ever do, I see no reason for complaint.

[DoNotRefill]

68. Last I heard...

Bush was plenty pissed at the Minutemen, and they sure as shit don't love him.

[Balbus]

72. That's what I'm constantly hearing

on the local news here in AZ. Every time one of these minutemen get in front of the camera they waste no time at all before they start ripping Bush and the current administration. No Bush lovers down there that I've seen yet.

[in_cog_ni_to]

73. It still doesn't make it right. Just because Bush is against them

and they don't like him doesn't mean what they are doing is right. Right is right. Wrong is wrong.

This is a RECORD! It's the first time EVER that I have agreed with ANYTHING that SOB idiot-in-chief has said or done. The only reason he's against vigilanism is because the repuke party wants the Hispanic vote. It's not because he supports illegal immigration or the Hispanic people themselves. There's always an ulterior motive with those people. ALWAYS.

[DoNotRefill]

78. So the Republicans no longer like cheap and illegal labor?

If we shut down the illegals coming across the border, what result? Will the need for their labor disappear? Or will people be screaming for labor, and push to reform immigration laws?

It's against ALL of our best interests for them to continue to come to the US illegally. We need immigration REFORM, so that they can come legally and not be treated as effectively chattel.

LEGAL, not ILLEGAL, immigration is the answer.

[TWiley]

29. I live in an area where Militia is strong.

All that I know are Religious (many Fundies) and strongly Conservative Republican. This is an environment which I would not exactly thrive in.

[redherring]

31. Not interested in joining the KKK

This whole minuteman project BS reeks of xenophobia directed towards brown people. If, say, Ireland were next to America in lieu of Mexico, most Americans(mostly Whites) would not be whining about it.

Hundreds of thousands of Irish came to the United States during the potato famine. I'm not trying to bash the Irish people, but what I'd like to know is, how many of them were actually *legal*?

[DoNotRefill]

66. Almost all of them....

the immigration laws were quite different back then.

You know that whole Ellis Island thing? That was for LEGAL immigrants.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Dangerous

This reeks of vigilantism. How long before they decide to "protect" the "poor,persecuted Conservatives" from "liberal professors" on college campuses? This sounds like a group of people spoiling for a fight. If they are interested in stopping illegal immigration, join the border patrol!

[Itsthetruth]

41. Incipient Fascist Type Of Group

This is the kind of organization that authentic fascist movements recruit their forces from. It's a breeding ground for fascists.

It's just starting my friends .... just starting.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. We are at the beginning, aren't we?

I can see these groups growing in number and becoming more insidious. Hell, look at the "militia" that wanted to "save" Terri! These people scare the hell out me! It really could lead to a civil war. They will attack the government because it is not conservative enough. :eyes:

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. Damn right it's dangerous.

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

We're next if this shit continues.

[Itsthetruth]

48. The Minuteman Project Website: In Their Own Words

Just love their recruitment pitch. Now how in the world can anyone accuse them of being bigots? And I just love that Confederate flag at their rally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

WELCOME

The Minuteman Project is a grassroots effort to bring Americans to the defense of their homeland, similar to the way the original Minutemen from Massachusetts (and other U. S. colonies) did in the late 1700s. Like them, we want to bring to this effort only what few personal possessions we can carry...plus our heart, mind and spirit.

It is a call to peacefully assemble at the Arizona-Mexico border to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the "rule of law", not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.

Accordingly, the men and women volunteering for this mission are those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more "toys" to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

The result: political, economic and social mayhem.
Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.



http://www.minutemanproject.com/index.html

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. I see the ACLU is there!

Why am I not surprised to see a Confederate Flag at their rally? Yeah. They're not bigots. :eyes:

[mattclearing]

47. You forgot: "No - Fuck those crazy Freeptard jackasses and the horses

they ride the border on."

[donco6]

63. I second that sentiment.

For a while there, I was beginning to wonder if we'd been totally overrun by these idiots.

[Zorra]

52. What, do you own a sweatshop or a large agricultural enterprise and

need to keep paying shitty wages to your illegal workers so you can continue to enjoy huge profits at the expense of, er, me, labor unions, and other unemployed Americans?

Hey, if these people somehow keep my already overcrowded country from becoming even more crowded by eventually getting anti-immigration legislation passed, I'd like to buy them all a beer.

Speaking as someone that has lost several jobs to illegal immigrant workers, and who has lost bargaining power and wage hikes because of illegal immigrant workers, I am totally and unashamedly in favor of shutting down our borders to all immigration.

All of it.

Americans do not need any more competition in our labor market. Our unions are deliberately being crushed as it is.

American jobs for Americans first. American resources for Americans first.

We need to start taking care of ourselves, because Buh is selling us out on a daily basis.

[Itsthetruth]

54. No ! I Am A Unionman Who Has Fought The Corporations

"What, do you own a sweatshop or a large agricultural enterprise and"
need to keep paying shitty wages to your illegal workers so you can continue to enjoy huge profits at the expense of, er, me, labor unions, and other unemployed Americans?"

Hardly. I'm a unionman and retired union organizer. We need to overcome those harmful racial and ethnic divisions encouraged by the employers and their corporate whores. We must organize ALL workers, including undocumented ones.

"Speaking as someone that has lost several jobs to illegal immigrant workers, and who has lost bargaining power and wage hikes because of illegal immigrant workers, I am totally and unashamedly in favor of shutting down our borders to all immigration."

Millions of good paying jobs, many of them union, have been outsourced to other nations. And the employers have cut wages and benefits for millions of jobs they haven't exported. Undocumented workers didn't do that.

[Zorra]

58. True, we have lost lots of jobs to outsourcing, and undocumented

workers didn't do that. I am totally against outsourcing our jobs also. But two wrongs don't make a right.

I am not a racist, and my objection to undocumented workers has nothing to do with racism. I am of mixed ethnic descent and have experienced racism first hand.

Undocumented workers took jobs away from me, and my friends, directly, when I was younger, because the undocumented workers worked for lower wages. I grew up in a rural agricultural area, and saw firsthand what an influx of cheap abundant labor did to my economic possibilities.

American workers do not need any more competition from anywhere.

And, IMO, we simply do not need any more people using up the scarce resources that we have left in our country.

I would like for America to be able to take care of the rest of the world, but it is 2005 now, and we have to start learning how to take care of our own people again.

[solinvictus]

56. Yes, but I don't want an AK-47...

I'll take an M1A or an M1 Garand if you please!;)

[hollowdweller]

59. Illegals are scabbing US workers out of jobs

and lowering our standard of living. If we could cut down on some of the influx yeah, some stuff would cost a little more, but we need to start somewhere to raise our standard of living again. I have no problem with people immigrating, but at the level now we are importing workers it hurts the working man and lowers wages.

[Itsthetruth]

60. You Don't Know What A "Scab" Is

You have an entirely new definition of a scab which is not the one used for over a century by union members and the labor movement.

A scab is someone who crosses a picketline to break a strike. The overwhelming majority of people who do that sort of thing are American citizens, not undocumented workers.

Your use of the term scab is what one would expect by someone in order to divide working class people and get us fighting one another.

So if you're a progessive please don't use that term to describe undocumented workers.

Thanks

[porphyrian]

61. Against the fascist revolution, maybe.

But I figure we have some time before it comes to that.

[Itsthetruth]

62. Bay Buchanan Loves This Outfit

Aaaaahhhhh. That great "progressive" Bay Buchanan seated at one of the Minuteman Project orientation meetings.

[Bridget Burke]

77. The true source of their name?

Was it from thos Minutemen of Revolutionary fame?

Or their average duration whilst performing the conjugal act?

[Itsthetruth]

79. Not Sure

I'm not sure but I've heared that when their men organize a circle jerk ritual it's all over in less than five minutes. That's usually followed by five minutes of giggling.

[Pinboy]

80. I'll join when they put a gun in my cold, dead hand. n/t