I have a hard time buying the 'stolen election' line

[Jesus Saves]

I'm sure there were problems, but I don't see enough problems that would have tipped the election the other way.

I read liberal blogs, and none of the major blogs seem to talk about this as much as DU. Few politicians have spoken of it, even very liberal ones, the kind you would expect to speak up.

The only place I really hear about it is the echo chamber of DU.

I admit that electronic voting must be done in a way that protects the vote. It's important to speak out about it. But all the bluster about the election as being stolen may in the end take credibility away from those efforts.

[bitchkitty]

1. Question -

have you not read any of the myriad of posts by statisticians, TruthIsAll's especially? If you did then you would probably not have written that first line.

[ashmanonar]

3. lol.

you won.

:D

[qwghlmian]

12. TIA is not a statistician, and not a polling expert

and he readily admits it.

All the arguments for "stolen elections" that are based on "it was statistically impossible for Bush to win" remind me of the following quote from "The Princess Bride":

Vizzini: Inconceivable.

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[bitchkitty]

15. My bad -

I thought that he was.

I assume that you can refute the validity of his posts?

No Princess Bride quotes please, I f**king hate fantasy.

[CatWoman]

16. PLUS

That movie sucked eggs!!

[AngryAmish]

23. How can any movie with Andre the Giant suck?

It just can't be. Impossible!

[d_b]

244. It can't

[Cha]

176. Just for the record...I love

that movie and watch it any chance I get!:popcorn:

Rob Reiner was brilliant at Directing and all the actors had just the right amount of tongue in cheek bravado..

[qwghlmian]

39. The validity of his posts has been refuted

in numerous posts on that board. TIA blithely ignores the refutations and plows along. He and his followers are "true believers" and facts do not sway them.

For example, TIA constantly claims that the "pristine" (his word), unweighted exit polls have historically been the ultimate in accuracy. That is plain wrong. He also claims that exit polls in the US are designed to predict the outcome of the election. That is also plain wrong. I could go on, but those are just two examples. Here, read the following

1. The "astonishing accuracy" of exit polls:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64906-2004Nov20.html

"The networks' 1992 national exit poll overstated Democrat Bill Clinton's advantage by 2.5 percentage points, about the same as the Kerry skew."

"I learned early in my Washington Post career that exit polls were useful but imperfect mirrors of the electorate. On election night in 1988, we relied on the ABC News exit poll to characterize how demographic subgroups and political constituencies had voted. One problem: The exit poll found the race to be a dead heat, even though Democrat Michael Dukakis lost the popular vote by seven percentage points to Dubya's father."

2. The purpose of the design of US exit polls:

http://election04.ssrc.org/research/InterimReport122204.pdf

"Rather, exit polls as currently designed and administered in the United States are not suitable for use as point estimators for the share of votes that go to different candidates."

...

"Nevertheless, some analysts inappropriately attempt to use current exit poll results to investigate whether the results in a locale (state or country) are accurate or whether fraud might be involved in an election.10 A certain form of exit poll could be used for this purpose, but again the designs would have to be different. To validate results in specific precincts or from particular machines, the designs would have to incorporate larger numbers of interviews with voters leaving the polls for precision."

[Jesus Saves]

44. Interesting - nt

[bitchkitty]

53. The validity has been debated -

it has not been refuted.

[johnaries]

156. The validity of his posts have NOT been refuted!

Some have tried, but TIA's analyses have stood up extremely well.

[qwghlmian]

157. Did you even read my post? n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

205. After reading your subject line there's no point in going any further.

[qwghlmian]

210. Thanks for proving my point. n/t

[bitchkitty]

219. What point? You didn't really make one,

as far as I can see, except that you think George W. Bush won the White House. Ho hum.

[qwghlmian]

235. I pointed out (and backed it up) that the exit polls

have not been accurate in the past. I pointed out (and backed it with cites) that US exit polls are not designed to predict or verify the outcome of the elections. I pointed out (and backed it up with facts) that Ukrainian exit polls that everybody here seems to claim overturned the elections there were *wildly* inaccurate.

And my point in this case was (as you have proved yet again) that all this you blissfully ignored because it does not fit your worldview.

[bitchkitty]

246. Cites? Facts?

You're making me smile.

1. Your first link - an opinion piece, hardly a fact.
2. Your second link - a report "based on publicly available data and arguments as of Dec. 21, 2004" (page 3). This is April, had you noticed?

Weak. Is that all you've got?

Actually, don't answer that. I should never have engaged you, I know better.

[Melissa G]

234. I read your post here and the similar posts in the Election thread

that you have done previously..
"The validity of his posts has been refuted


in numerous posts on that board. TIA blithely ignores the refutations and plows along. He and his followers are "true believers" and facts do not sway them."

They have not been refuted. Your posts have been...Time and again.
Yet you are the one who 'Blithely ignores' being refuted and reposts the same old sad stuff that has been refuted in another location.

[qwghlmian]

238. Go ahead and try

to refute what I posted. I only post facts, not conjectures, and I back them up with cites, unlike some people.

Ukrainian exit polls being wildly wrong - fact.

US exit polls having been wildly wrong in the past - fact.

US exit polls not designed to predict outcomes or verify elections - fact.

Care to refute any of these?

[Melissa G]

258. Many of the things you cite are partial answers from which

you then make full assertions.... Which you repeat again and again...




'Ukrainian exit polls being wildly wrong - fact.'
Yes, that was why Bush said we needed to support the folks in Orange...

:sarcasm:

[qwghlmian]

259. Ukrainian exit polls were wildly wrong

and I showed it to you - with numbers. Do you dispute that? How is that a "partial answer"? Either they were or they were not. The numbers prove that they were. You're really clutching at straws here.

As I pointed out, and gave you a cite to the article about it, Ukrainian election was overturned because of massive, documented, indisputable proof of fraud. Exit polls did not really enter into that equation.

[johnaries]

290. Yes, i read your post and I have read TIA's posts and I have read many

other posts on both sides. I happen to be a Six Sigma black Belt who is very familiar with statistical analysis and determining what is valid data and what is not.

Although TIA may get a little over-zealous with his "smoking gun" and "proof" statements, the evidence he presents is very convincing and based on solid analysis in the majority of cases.

Anomalies do occur in polling and other methods of data capture. However, for so many anomalies to occur so far outside the accepted Margin of Error STRONGLY indicates that something is happening to skew the results, which in this case would indicate widespread fraud.

Couple with his analysis the analyses of several other "reputable" sources that basically agree with TIA's conclusions, as well as the many documented cases of voter intimidation and suppression, AND the cases of suspicious activity involving the DRE's and optical scanners, and I am absoulutely convinced that Bush "won" only as a result of widespread fraud.

[Yupster]

217. It was Andre the Giant's Greatest Role

Who can forget the way he delivered his line

"anybody want a peanut?" (right eye blink) masterful.

[bitchkitty]

220. I'm happy for him, but

fantasy still leaves me cold. I didn't see Lord of the Rings and I never read past the first chapter of The Hobbitt (sic?) either - BORING.

[Yupster]

250. Unfortunately

Andre the Giant died.

[bitchkitty]

252. Sorry - I remember that now. So many other

things on my mind, like the stolen election.

[AngryAmish]

295. Why do you hate Andre the Giant?

Do you have something against Frenchmen?

[bitchkitty]

296. I don't hate Andre the Giant -

why would you think that?

[AngryAmish]

298. Are you like Bush and just hate the French?

How are your freedom fries?

[bitchkitty]

303. What is wrong with you?

I don't like George Bush and I certainly don't hate the French, I love them for standing up to him. I hate the movie "The Princess Bride". I hate fantasy fiction. How you got from there to freedom fries is pretty damned amazing.

Now please stop accusing me of being a freeper - I won't snitch, but I will tell.

edited. fingers not cooperating with brain.

[Yupster]

329. Boy if Andre were only here now

I bet you wouldn't be saying such things.

On second thought, I'm glad he's not hear to have to hear it. (sniffle)

[XemaSab]

48. Or "Pirates of the carribbean"

"That's not POSSIBLE!!!!"

"Well, it's not PROBABLE...."

[BillyDoc]

300. I've had several graduate level stat courses and

I think you need to read this page and follow the links as needed. http://electionfraudbounty.org/Evidence.php

Basically it boils down to this. For Bush to have actually won the election would be the statistical equivalent of you going to Florida, buying a single lottery ticket, winning, and then going to the next state and doing the same thing. As one Ph.D. statistician put it: "As much as we can say in social science that something is impossible, it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote counts in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error." Now that we have more evidence with the final release of the Edison/Mitofsky report it is VERY CLEAR that the election was rigged and that Kerry actually won by a margin of roughly 3%.

Go to the link above and check it out. Of course, according to the Jesus Freeks and Repugs, Mathematics is "just a theory." You know, like "gravity" is just a theory, so any merely mathematical conclusion doesn't "really" count.

[LoganW]

188. Errr... truthisall

if I recall correctly, posted that there was a 99% chance of kerry being in the whitehouse today.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

206. All that does is prove that the election was stolen. Do you disagree?

[bitchkitty]

221. If the election had been fair, Kerry would

have been in the White House. Kerry won. So are you trying to prove this point or disprove it? If it's the latter, you're doing a poor job.

[ashmanonar]

2. look up posts by truthisall.

TIA's got the numbers, and must be a mathematician. the statistics just DON'T add up.

[Jesus Saves]

14. I've read them

and can't make hide nor hair of those stats.

"There's lies, damned lies, and then statistics."

I'm talking hard evidence here.

[ashmanonar]

25. well, you better build a time machine then.

if you really think that there's still evidence of ANYTHING bushco has done in the past 5 years, i'm afraid i have bad news for you...

[Ani Yun Wiya]

272. I have GOOD news for you...

Proof of fraud for the Year 2000 theft DOES exist.

However, not one single "voice" seems willing to bring forth the proofs to the public.

The list of those who have these proofs in their fullest form is short but does include the following:

1. Greg Palast
2. Dennis Kucinich

It is a mystery to me why neither of these gentlemen has seen fit to publicize the facts and numbers.

[ashmanonar]

276. well, there are numbers. i don't doubt that.

but i mean physical evidence. memos. paperwork. witnesses. i'm willing to wager that NONE of that is left. the BFEE is too good at covering their tracks.

edit: yea, i'm curious myself why palast doesn't publish. he's put stuff that's just as inflammatory before (the best democracy money can buy), but who knows if he's being threatened or harassed? he knows if he publishes in full he better get body guards...

[Ani Yun Wiya]

281. "physical evidence. memos. paperwork"...

Wouldn't those be trumped by certifications that do NOT agree?

see:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=49624&mesg_id=49624&page=

[ashmanonar]

283. yes.

i'm just responding to other posters that want "hard" evidence. the same poster who apparently can only post that one link to kos...and NOTHING else.

my point being: for those logical enough to see in statistical trends and disagreed certifications, the math works fine: it's the people who want physical evidence that aren't ever gonna change their beliefs anyways.

besides which: there's likely NOTHING left. rove is too good at what he does.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

297. Rove is NOT all that good!

As it was in 2000, the whole event turned on the state of Florida.

Which is a "sunshine" state.

Now, Jeb and his boys DID have to wait 22 months before, shall we say, "torching" the records.

In that course of time however one very curious resident of this nation DID get every bit of paper associated with what went down.

Granted,there was some resistance and the usual "slow" method applied to things as is natural "down south", but the task was accomplished.

The documentation goes all the way down to precinct level and is irrefutable, with seals and signatures attesting to the veracity and official quality of the data.

The whole of it is about 70 MB of data and somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 sheets of paper.

[ashmanonar]

304. *surrenders* n/t

[rainy]

26. Election polls tell all

Remember the polls were always right before 2000. Then, wow, all of a sudden they are wrong and can't be counted on.

A Ukraine election was turned over because of election poll results.

The polls were only off in swing states. Explain that.
The machines are rigged. They leave no paper trail.
Cannot recount votes only regurgitate old tallies.
They are owned by wealthy republicans.

[qwghlmian]

70. See, your post is an example of people

who do not do their research but blindly repeat what they hear without checking.

1. No, exit polls were NOT "always right" before 2000.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005178.php

Unweighted exit polls: (ones that TIA, for example, claims are very accurate):

Year 1988: Dukakis: 50.3%, Bush: 49.7%. Actual vote deviation 7.7%.

Year 1992: Clinton: 46%, Bush: 33.2%. Actual vote deviation 5.6%.

Year 1996: Clinton: 52.2%, Dole: 37.5%. Actual vote deviation 8.5%.

Year 2000: Gore: 48.5%, Bush: 46.2%. Actual vote deviation 0.5%.

As you can see, exit polls have been VERY inaccurate in the past.


2. No, Ukrainian exit polls were not very accurate. In fact, 3 out of 3 exit polls done there were completely outside MOE compared to the results of the election (and that was in the second election, not in the first one).

See: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/10499250.htm

There were three exit polls. Their results were:

58.1 to 38.4 MOE=2
56.5 to 41.3 no MOE
56 to 41 MOE=2

Here are the official results of the second Ukrainian election:

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11909776%5E2,00.html

51.99 to 44.20

As you can see, every exit poll was wrong and way outside of the margin of error. Compared to these polls, US national exit polls of 2004 were a lot closer to the final result.


Ukrainian election was overturned because of blatant, documented, videotaped, massive fraud.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/28/wukra28.xml

[Jesus Saves]

100. Those exit polls seem to be the basis

for much of this. On this thread numerous people have brought them up, claiming they're never wrong.

That's what I mean by 'echo chamber'.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

208. They were never wrong prior to the 2000 eleactions....now they're....

....ALWAYS wrong?? I don't think so.

[qwghlmian]

211. And you don't think so - based on what?

I gave you facts. You "don't think so" because they don't agree with your beliefs. This is what I meant by "blind adherence to dogma".

[Just Me]

218. One-eyed monsters should be executed, immediately *LOL*.

}(

Just thought I'd break up the bullshit with an off-the-wall moment.

O8)

[Jesus Saves]

243. Hmm...that is off the wall...

What exactly is a one eyed monster?

[ashmanonar]

277. if you have to ask you'll never know...

;)

[wryter2000]

95. If you can't make hide nor hair of them

Why are you evaluating their validity?

[Jesus Saves]

104. I had my suspicions

which were confirmed by another poster on this very thread.

The fact that these claims rarely leave DU is another red flag for me.

[mattclearing]

121. They have left DU

Of all people, Christopher Hitchens is a believer in the election fraud theory.

Barbara Boxer was concerned enough to vote against accepting Ohio's electoral slate.

Jesse Jackson believed in it, because he led many people, some from DU, and myself personally included, in a march on the Capitol when the electoral vote was to be tallied.

Howard Dean said Diebold was a problem way back in the primaries, and the second he became the consensus pick for DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe earmarked $500,000 for election investigations.

So these claims go straight to the heart of the Democratic Party. DU is one of the only places where people will discuss it openly, however, mainly because of the anonymity with which they post.

No one wants to be pigeonholed as a loony conspiracy theorist, but there are many reasons to doubt the results of the 2004 election, and not a whole lot of reasons to have faith in the process as it currently stands.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

136. Well, you don't hear that on Fox News, and Limpballs doesn't talk about it

:P

[Vektor]

137. HAHAHAHAHA

LIMPBALLS!

Now there's a guy I can see in piss stained pajamas.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

140. Because he's in an Oxycontin haze

[Swamp Rat]

173. Not just him.

:D

[Laurab]

233. I don't understand exit polls much either

But I believe with all my heart this election was stolen. If you know anything at all about * and co, you know it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to believe that.

The main problem for me is that republican backers own and run the machines that count the votes. In many cases, they screwed with attempts to do recounts. In Ohio, the state that turned the election, they have fought against every single attempt to gain information about the election. Why do you think that is?

I think, if there is nothing to hide, they'd WANT people to know it was a fair and honest election. Wouldn't you? How about the fake terror alert in Ohio, that no one claims responsibility for?

And then there's the computers. It's been demonstrated by a number of people, how easily the computers could have been programmed to switch votes, or default to Bush. Why did every single "mistake" happen to be in Bush's favor? A bit coincidental, don't you think?

There is so much more - I suggest you read all 101 pages of John Conyers report, just for a start. The reason it "hasn't left DU" is that there is no PROOF. Last I heard, they wouldn't let anyone near the machines, so the likelihood of getting any is low.

Common sense alone tells me something is VERY fishy here. Knowing what I know about this regime, combined with what has been found out (and there are other statisticians aside from TIA who have come to the same conclusions - well respected professors, etc.) make me believe it's very unlikely that that * actually won the election.

I've read the threads with TIA's analyses, and while I can't make heads or tails of most of it, I have noticed there are one or two posters who ONLY appear to argue with whatever he posts. Never do I see them anywhere else. I've often wondered exactly what their motive was, but to me, it really doesn't matter, because there's so much more than exit polls that have made me come to feel the way I do.

I don't expect to see it in the Corporate media anytime soon, though.

[Griffy]

251. ON the mark... who are these people that give * the benefit of the doubt!

And it is not any 1 fact.. if TIA is totally full of shit.. it wouldnt change my mind.. not because Im not open minded to the idea that bush may have won... but because my belief is based on the facts surrounding the machines, the studies from universities, and many other facts that by themselves wouldnt be enough to sway me... but combined with the activities of this criminal bush..(if you dont think hes a criminal,then we can back up a step and enlighten you) and I would be suprised if he didn't cheat!

We live in a world were fox can convince millions that a braindead woman is aware and trying to speak! The fact that the whole subject is taboo is only more reason to talk about it. I think I'll go along with Conyers and Boxer and others that have asked for investigations, because I believe they asked for them because they too believe something wasn't right! This election was unverifiable.. and should be void! Some may say we have never really had accurate elections.. to them I say thats no excuse.. the time has come to realize the fraud and demand fair election!

[bitchkitty]

248. Which poster, Jesus?

Bet I can guess.

[Melissa G]

327. I love it when suspicions come in pairs to DU....

It really moves the dialog along when one other person comes in to support a position but provides no additional data other than affirmation. Somehow though, DU is often portrayed as so bad in these scenarios ...:shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

307. Hey, are you a programmer? Do you work for the company that makes Qt?

The KDE graphics toolkit?

[liberal43110]

328. So you don't have any grasp of the subject of statistics

And yet you criticize statistical analysis? Statistics takes some understanding, but when you've studied it, things really make sense.

Try taking some stat classes, freeper.

[Warpy]

20. He's also not doing this stuff in a vacuum.

Please check out http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_summary.pdf

The information is out there. The way the right has sought to explain it away is utterly ludicrous.

There was a pervasive pattern of fraud, from destruction of voter registration, to the lack of voting equipment in Dem districts, to the illegal purging of voter rolls, and the dirty tricks campaigns aimed at discouraging Democrats from voting at all that I think we can safely say that the numerical anomalies we saw on election day were planned and executed to give Bush an office he did not deserve.

[ashmanonar]

22. oh, i know.

i'm just saying that TIA seems to have the best info on the site. many TIA posts have totally confused me with their maths. :D

[Melissa G]

239. TIA has some of the best graphs and big picture views.

But Bernview1 has some of the best information and documentation. If you want to see why we believe time after time after time that the last three elections (00, 02, and 04) were stolen. Check out Bernview1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=334234

and Bill Bored's posts as well.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=347704

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=350222

[ashmanonar]

245. INteresting.

very interesting. must follow threads, but first must sleep. i think i'll read them tomorrow.

[Mnemosyne]

4. Actually, no ones vote mattered at all, they had him picked

before 2000. The "election" is only to make we the people feel that we have a voice still. Just my opinion, based on many years of observation.

Flame away folks, I don't care.

[SammyWinstonJack]

299. No flames here, I actually agree with you. n/t

[ck4829]

5. They didn't win through theft alone. Bush is not a legitimate President

Mix:

1 part Diebold

1 part fear mongering

1 part Swift lies

And you get Bush's Presidency.

[Jesus Saves]

10. Fear mongering, swift boats does not equal 'stolen'

It's low down and dirty and dishonest, but I'm talking about the actual votes here.

[bitchkitty]

13. Would you mind answering my question?

Have you read any of TruthisAll's posts? Not just the titles, not just skimming, but have you READ the content of his posts?

Please answer me.

[Yupster]

222. I read TIA's threads for a long time

I'll tell you where he lost me though.

He was trying to prove that most of the final pre-election polls showed Kerry winning, but then Bush won. He listed the polls he was using as examples.

One he used was the Pew Poll.

I thought this was odd, because I had just seen a Pew poll and thought it showed Bush ahead.

So I went to the Pew website.

Sure enough their final pre-election poll showed Bush at 51 % and Kerry at 48 %. They hit the final result exactly on the head.

I chuckled and thought how ironic is that. Using a poll that called the election spot on as evidence that the election results couldn't be right. I asked TIA what the heck he was talking about.

His answer was that for that poll he used registered voters instead of likely voters. With registered voters, Kerry was ahead.

Sorry folks, that was the last time I took TIA's posts seriously. In a close election, if you give yourself license to manipulate the data that blatantly, then you can prove anything you want.

I just don't pay him any attention anymore. I realise others do, and there are many who will post "You rock TIA" everytime he posts something. That's fine . I can only shrug.

[Melissa G]

236. There was a skew that was being used and noted where

republicans were admittedly being over weighted in the likely voter category. Koppel, among others, read this in his nightly disclaimers leading up to the election. There were numerous comments about this at the time. There is no reason to be lost about this. This info is probably in the archives.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

209. "Actual votes"? I think your definition and our definition of.....

...."actual" are two different things.

[pnorman]

24. The second and third parts are things we hve to live with.

Variants of them have been used to try to discredit Clinton, Gore, and Kerry. But the first part is where it's all at:

(Right from thr homepage of DU)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
swag Donating member (1000+ posts)

Analysis points to election `corruption'

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/11284237.htm

(reg req)

Group says chance of exit polls being so wrong in '04 vote is one-in-959,000

By Stephen Dyer
Beacon Journal staff writer


There's a one-in-959,000 chance that exit polls could have been so wrong in predicting the outcome of the 2004 presidential election, according to a statistical analysis released Thursday.
. . .
The explanation for the discrepancy that was offered by the exit polling firm -- that Kerry voters were more likely to participate in the exit polling -- is an ``implausible theory,'' according to the report issued Thursday by US Count Votes, a group that claims it's made up of about two dozen statisticians.
. . .
The conclusion drew a yawn from Ohio election officials, who repeated that the discrepancy issue was settled when the polling firms Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International disavowed its polls because Kerry voters were more likely to answer exit polls -- the theory Thursday's report deemed ``implausible.''

``What are you going to do except laugh at it?'' said Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, who's responsible for administering Ohio's elections and is a Republican candidate for governor. ``We're not particularly interested in (the report's findings). We wish them luck, but hope they find something more interesting to do.''
. . .

``These (Bush) voters have been much maligned by outside political forces who didn't like the way they voted,'' he said. ``The weather's turning nice. There are more interesting things to do than beat a dead horse
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

pnorman

[Bridget Burke]

6. Ah, another eager newcomer.....

Informing us that we should shut up. We'll lose credibility! We'll be marginalized!

The 2000 & 2004 elections were 100% honest. Nobody could have imagined 9/11. Everybody was sure that Iraq had WMD.

Yeah, right....

[CatWoman]

7. Yeah -- Jesus should save his rhetoric

for someone who actually gives a shit.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. DOH!

[H2O Man]

17. I'm confused .....

are the representatives who investigated this part of DU? That's really cool, if it's true. Is Jesse Jackson part of DU? Gosh. It must be that these people are disguised.

[CatWoman]

19. TRICK OR TREAT!!!!

:D

[H2O Man]

193. But CatWoman,

does that mean that the 2000 election was entirely on the "up-and-up" and it was just them darned DUers in the Grand Canyon who made up that there was a problem? Did DUers cause all the fuss about the Iran-Contra scandal? Watergate? Why do DUers do this? Is it just to confuse people?

[Stephanie]

28. Sit down! Shut up! You're making "us" look bad!

same old

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Arkana]

47. Yeah, isn't it great that newcomers always seem to know better than us?

EDIT: Phrasing message a BIT differently...

Oh, and as to his comment about "no one talks about this but the echo chamber here at DU," I hope these will disprove that:

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book109h.htm -- LOTS of vote fraud links

http://newsclipautopsy.blogspot.com/2005/04/truth-left-out-data-indicates-massive.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htm -- Poll tape anomaly

A simple Google search turned up a LOT more than that. Don't tell me we're the only ones who care--cause it's just NOT TRUE.

[AllegroRondo]

8. I questioned the numbers the day after the election

the statistics just DONT add up - the odds of that many states having ballot counts outside the margin of error of the exit polls are near impossible. you have a greater chance of winning the lottery 2 weeks in a row.

[wryter2000]

9. I suggest you read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1359601

On edit: while this appeard on DU, it wasn't done by DUers but a host of other statisticians. Esp. take a look at the exit poll/outcome discrepancy distribution as contrasted to a normal distribution as it would occur if there were no bias.

[Jesus Saves]

21. The statistiscs stuff doesn't do it for me

At best it raises questions, and then I say, what else is there? I can't find much else to validate it.

I think this is the reason why this theory is confined mostly to DU these days. Even people you would expect to speak out on this have walked away from it.

[Undercover Owl]

29. "these days"

okay, so maybe most other sites have simply stopped talking about it, that doesn't mean they never did.

The "stolen election" was the talk of the world, at one time. Yes, I do mean around the world. We aren't always privy to other countries' news reports.

[CatWoman]

33. why do you keep putting this on DU?

It's like you blame us for your "thickness".

[Stephanie]

35. Why do you think?

The man is on a mission.

[0007]

42. You've noticed that too, 'eh?

Like the shmuck in a classroom that fell a sleep during the discourse and wants to argue the facts after he wakes up.

[Jesus Saves]

46. huh?

I'll challenge what I want too.

I don't challenge everything on DU. Much I agree with.

[bpilgrim]

133. rumor, innuendo and ignorance does not make for a 'challenge'

at least not on DU.

we have a tradition of providing well thought out analysis that are peer reviewed in an open forum often backed up by links to source material to back up our 'challenges' unlike the M$MW and neoCON think tanks which produce mostly marketingesque talking points and also... we got a paper trail :evilgrin:

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[qwghlmian]

183. Really? I find quite a different attitude here of

dogmatic adherence to beliefs while ignoring any facts that contradict them.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3422737#3422932

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3422737#3423096

Not one person out of the people contributing to this thread had any comment on these. Yet I bet the same people will continue repeating the points that the above posts refute in numerous DU posts to come.

[ldf]

198. what contradicting facts?

would you care to post them?

[qwghlmian]

200. I gave you the links above -

do you even bother reading before responding?

[ldf]

305. obviously not, huh?

what contradicting facts of the 2004 election lead you to believe that bush won?

why is it that the polls in 2004, just a day before, became so irrelevant the following day.

and why did it just happen in certain precincts? read the many threads that covered these possibilites. they are too numerous to list.

i also adhere to the belief that huge amounts of votes were skimmed from california, texas, and new york, where the vote was so onesided that no one would question the discrepancy.

those possibilites were also discussed in numerous du threads.

strange, with all the republicans now admitting that they didn't vote for bush, how the hell did he manage it?

do you mean that a huge number of gore votes went to the dark side?

some things i will swallow, but THAT is not one of them.

another question that has been tossed out that i would like answered.

did karen hughes REALLY sit bush down and tell him that he was losing, the day of the election?

whatever happened to that little tidbit?

:evilgrin:

[bpilgrim]

213. well...

that's what were famous for ;->

since we now have BBV with NO paper trail we have NO WAY of being certain one way or the other but with all the circumstantial evidence and criminal behavior of the current regime PERCEPTION is everything.

psst... pass the word :hi:

peace

[mattclearing]

138. You seem to have missed the time period when this was going on.

The period between the election and the tallying of electoral votes was a period of immense activity on DU, particularly in the 2004 Election Results forum.

If you had been around for it, and saw the amount of evidence and the kinds of ambushes and stopgaps and end-arounds that SOS Blackwell employed to keep curious Democrats at bay, you would probably be a lot more suspicious.

Just because it isn't featured on your evening news doesn't make it false.

As it stands, our electoral system is completely insecure. There is no reason to have faith in the results so long as the software that tallies the votes is vulnerable to tampering.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vektor]

45. More stereotyping of the "fat lazy liberal revolutionary"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3287595&mesg_id=3287595
See #67, #69 and so forth...
He's really driving it home, huh?
Not a very Christian thing to do.
Edit for link

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus Saves]

52. no

you don't

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vektor]

74. I'm not bashing a whole political party

as fat revolutionaries in urine soaked pajamas.
You are.
Repeatedly.
It doesn't look good.
It certainly doesn't look "Christian."

[Jesus Saves]

79. neither

am I.

A whole party? LOL.

[Vektor]

97. Absolutely

Re-read your insulting drivel.
You sure as hell are not some "concerned citizen" trying to bring up a valid point.
You come across in many posts as condescending, insulting, and offensive.
And you know it.
Your aim is to sneak in as many insults as you can and hope it will go unnoticed.
It hasn't.

[Stephanie]

101. Is anyone else getting strange PMs from this poster?

I got one that makes no sense at all.

[Vektor]

106. Me?

I don't think I sent you anything. I just checked my sent box, and I don't see anything.

[Stephanie]

111. No sorry, not from you

from him. Or Him.

[Vektor]

117. Oh, I see....

That is weird.
(???)

[Jesus Saves]

118. Sorry I was sending

you a PM to make a comment how pissed Bush made that Ukraine prez., or at least that's how it looked. Similar to the one I made in your thread.

It didn't go out right. I hit the send button I think. I had to leave after that, had company. When I came back the thread was dropped off the front page, so I just let it go. Figured no harm done.

[bitchkitty]

249. Or Him - LMAO! n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

113. BWAHAHAHAHA!

I love that pic! :D

[Jesus Saves]

50. Funny you bring that up

as if it's some kind of big 'aha' moment.

Whatever.

That whole thread contained a lot of joking.

And frankly some on DU exhibit 'freeperesque' qualities - believing in what they want to believe in spite of the evidence.

Those Gannan/sex ring threads seem a lot like the old Clinton body count nonsense the right peddled in the nineties.

[Vektor]

65. There are several such threads

all of them with the same "joke" repeated ad nauseum.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3287595&mesg_id=3288984&page=
Why are you trying SO HARD to perpetuate this negative view?
Let everyone else decide if this is "funny" or malicious and calculated.

[Jesus Saves]

73. ad nauseum?

I don't think so.

But cherry pick all you want.

[Vektor]

81. HAHAHAH

More than one time in more than one thread.
Why do that?
What does that name calling accomplish?
Why would you feel the need to perpetuate that negative image?
If you really are a Christian Democrat?

[Jesus Saves]

94. It's just a comment

nothing more, nothing less. I'm not questioning anyone's soul.

I find some of the 'keyboard activism' questionable and somewhat comical. So sue me.

[Vektor]

102. A comment made repeatedly.

Look, your penchant for sneaking in digs at the users of DU has not gone unnoticed.

You mentioned you are "just here for entertainment" in one of your prior posts.

Is it entertaining for you to insult people?

[Jesus Saves]

107. "repeatedly"

Reality: a handful of times out of hundreds of post.

I have started threads that go against DU orthodoxy on certain subjects. So what?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus Saves]

124. Three times at the most

If you would take the effort to go through the hundreds of posts I've made you would find that I am very much the Democrat.

But go ahead and call FREEPER! on me - it only reflects back on you.

[Vektor]

132. I don't believe I called you anything.

You are the one who has been doing all the name calling.
I merely mentioned that your insulting behavior is inappropriate.
You are the one associated the term "freeper" with yourself.
Look, can it, ok?
We've all seen your rhetoric, and I'm not the only one who thinks its nasty and uncalled for.

[Laurab]

240. after reading a few posts in other threads

I'm sorry I took the time to answer your OP question. It appears you don't REALLY want an answer. In fact, in those threads, there are so many deleted posts (as there are in this one), that it seems to me anyone who bothers to respond is really wasting their time. I for one won't make the mistake again.

[havocmom]

93. "believing in what they want to believe in in spite of the evidence"

would be a good title for an autobiography

What specifically do you have trouble with about the fact that the election was a total fraud?

the cooked numbers?

Witnesses to counts being denied access by fed agents who weren't fed agents?

Distinct pattern of not enough equipment in densely Democratic urban precincts while there was oodles of the stuff in affluent, highly Republican suburbs?

GOP organizations registering voters then trashing the forms of people who registered as DEMS?

The fact, FACT, that the computers DID NOT function properly over and over in precinct after precinct?

The fact that computers in many places had uninspected, uncertified programs and 'patches' pt on them AFTER being inspected & certified?

Stickers places over marks on ballots?

The exit polls?

The long faces on bush*, Mrs. Bush & the twins upon their return to the WH on Nov 2?

Karen Hughs telling the shrub he lost?

The fact that the many in the junta would probably have been investigated and indicted as soon as they are not in power to protect their own asses?

After lying to start a way, killing tens of thousands of innocent people and helping corporations with war profiteering, why would they EVER take the chance of a fair and honest election?

What is really so hard to understand about the stolen election?

Or did you just wanna dance?

[Vektor]

139. I don't have a problem with any of that!

Sounds right on to me.

[Sydnie]

122. Thanks for the link Vector

I missed that thread and that slam. I'll be right back, I need to slip into my DU uniform ... piss stained pajama's that have aged are my favorite thing to wear while I'm trying to inform myself about the state of the world and all that other "keyboard activist" stuff that I do when I am bored. </end sarcasm - !begin shaking head>

Sheesh! How can we hope to educate those around us if we don't educate ourselves? </end rhetorical question>

[Vektor]

135. You're welcome.

There's really just no excuse for that sort of rude generalization, and to try to back-pedal and rationalize it when called on is even worse.

Yeesh.

I think my piss stained pajamas go great with my tin-foil hat don't you?

[Sydnie]

143. Why yes, I do

I have my favorites. They match my sanitary napkin "bunny slippers", just in case I "leak that low", I don't have to bend to clean it up.

Perhaps we need a thread to get the "official" DU Uniform recognized by all. After all, if we don't think alike and dress alike, how will we recognize each other when we are doing our "once around the block" protests?

You know, I have a very close friend who tells me quite often that I am a "kool aide drinker too, just a different flavor". Not that she doesn't hear, understand and believe the information that I am sharing, but because it scares the "begezzus" out of her.

The latest example was when the pope died. I was talking about the "silver hammer" and she didn't believe me. She was appalled at the idea. But, having heard it herself from several different sources, she had to admit that it was true.

It's not that we aren't speaking the truth about these last two elections ... it's just that those with the microphone with the loudest re-verb isn't saying it right now.

I can't wait until the History Channel reflects what is happening now. I will enjoy my "cat ate the canary" smile then.

What shape is your hat? I like to make mine into the shape of animals, depending on the thread I am reading at the time. I just made mine into a skunk for this thread.

[Vektor]

146. Mine's a cheeseburger -

Because at 97 pounds, I'm the typical fat, slovenly revolutionary who can't walk around the block without dying, but can jog up Russian Hill in S.F., and runs about 5 miles a day on average.

:-)

Ok, I'm trying to stay in shape for the day John Kerry is on the market again.

:-)

[MichiganVote]

49. Ok. Well since numbers don't do it, let's consider some reality

Whose government is heavily linked with Project for a New American Century that presages an occupation of Iraq? Um...that would be George.

Whose government told us that WMD was alive and well in Iraq and that we should invade Iraq b/c it was a threat to us. Later found to be untrue, who changed his spots and told us, not asked us, told us, that Iraqi's are better off b/c they are now "free"? Yup...George again.

Whose administration claimed that oil from Iraq would pay for the war? $300 billion and sinking, that's our cost, not Iraq's.

Who is the leader who signed one law in Texas that allows the state to put people to death either as a part of the judiciary or as a part of a hospital review, later to defend an ill defined, "Culture of Life" in the case of Schaivo? Hey!...its George again!

Who holds "townhall" meetings that ALL taxpayers pay for while only "some" taxpayers are admitted? Even Castro does not do this. It's George Bush who does these things and nobody stands up to him.

Whose government distorted the cost of the new Medicaid / Medicare costs? The Bush government.

Whose government budgets do not fund NCLB? George Bush and his republican buddies.

Who has done more to defend his 'in the trillions' dollar deficit than George Bush, even though countless economists have said we're headed for an economic iceberg?

Every time this man opens his mouth, he lies, he distorts, he fabricates and he obfuscates. Fancy words for being full of shit.
George Bush wouldn't know the truth if it hit him the face and he has just as many people surrounding him that lie with him, for him and inspite of him.

Elections? He's put thousands of people out of work, out of the reach of decent health benefits, out of financial aid or other standard social programs that have worked for decades and out the country for minor offenses. George Bush began a preemptive war on a false basis and for that reason almost 1600 US families have a dead son or daughter. Thousands more veterans are without appropriate benefits and are threatened with the loss of more. You think George Bush or these people care about an election? Get real.

For whose benefit is George Bush in office? Not mine I can tell ya'. And not yours.

[bpilgrim]

80. sounds like a neoCON refrain

but thanks for bringing this critical topic up others need to hear about the stats changing on that day and most importantly BBV controlled by reTHUGs with NO-WAY to verify the results since THAT is the issue that MUST change.

psst... pass the word :evilgrin:

peace

[Stephanie]

or theocon...

[wryter2000]

90. self-delete

Oh, what's the point?

[Redstone]

110. The "statistics stuff" doesn't "do it for you?"

You raise a tirade on a subject whose legitimacy or lack of such rests entirely on numbers, but you don't want to be bothered looking at numbers?

Ohhhhhkay. Another wall against which I will no longer beat my head.

Redstone

[CJCRANE]

131. You need to

realise that DU is usually way ahead of the curve on most issues. Just ask veteran DUers when they knew there where no WMD in Iraq, for example.

[burn the bush]

153. there was an obvious effort to block us from finding the outright proof

we needed. But besides that there were over 60,000 instances of problems. Some of these problems covered thousands of votes. One caught "error" as you know gave shrub 25 million votes. How many were not caught? Why do they fight so hard to keep the voting machines without a trail? Those machines are nothing more than big adding machines, the same people can make bank machines that operate without flaw, yet these simple adding machines can not do the job.

They were most definately hacked. Hell, even I would probably have hacked it if I had the chance and I'm a relatively honest person. I know that Rover and co are not honest. There is no way they let that pass them by.

Bush out of office by fall. Lets make it happen. Send him to the big house in disgrace. The shrubbery is going down.

[Joe Chi Minh]

159. "I've read them

and can't make hide nor hair of those stats.

"There's lies, damned lies, and then statistics."

I'm talking hard evidence here. - Jesus saves, (but not those guilty of the eternal, the unforgivable sin of wilful resistance to the truth).

He minds me of a 14 year old who told my brother-in-law, who was tutoring him, that he'd read Shakespeare and didn't like him!

Mathematics is the "hardest" evidence of all, the most incontrovertible proof, its being essentially indeed "a priori". So "statistics stuff" is a very infantile way of describing the extensive, expert and meticulous academic studies you are evidently referring to. If "statistical stuff" is how you view such work, it would indeed have been a cause for concern to them if they had received your endorsement.

But we don't have to understand statistics, since peer-group verified mathematics at such a distinguished level do not constitute subjective opinions, but the most accurate possible indicator.

Is it not DNA identification that nails killers and rapists these days on the basis of statistical probabilities? Many of the odds on the positive gallimaufrey of results being the product of massive, wide-scale fraud in the studies, as identified by very eminent and highly-accredited Ivy League mathematicians and statisticians are immeasurably higher - indeed astronomical to the point of effective certainty.

So, no, you don't have to buy the "statistics stuff", Jesus saves. It's there for free, "for those with eyes to see".

[linazelle]

168. If the stats don't "do it" for you, then you should have read

the election forum at DU which was rife with fraud reports. Air America also talked about them. John Conyers introduced a laundry list of them compiled from all the fraudulent practices. Did you hear about the fake voter registrations drives? People registered to vote and never got registered? What about the votes that were "challenged" and not counted? Who did all of these tactics favor? Did the Dems challenge votes? Did the Dems conduct fraudulent registration drives? I don't think so...

It's really common sense if you look at the evidence.

[Yupster]

226. Then there's New Hampshire

That was the state which had the exit poll that was the most at variance with the vote totals.

Kerry won the state by about 1 % but the exit poll said he won by 12 %.

So which was right, the exit poll or the actual vote tallies.

Logic would say the vote tallies as no one thought Kerry would win New Hampshire by double digits.

Anyway, the Nader group paid to have some precincts recounted to see if they could solve the dilemma.

What was the result?

The vote count was right, and the exit poll was just hopelessly wrong.

You'd think that would have ended the exit polls as evidence posts, but it hasn't seemed to.

[Laurab]

237. Another question

How exactly would believing the election was stolen "take credibility away" from getting our election system changed? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me. Obviously we'd have to believe something was wrong if we wanted election reform. A LOT of people think something is very wrong, and I don't think us "tin foil hatters", as you seem to think we are, are going to give it any more or less credibility. I don't understand your logic there.

[Griffy]

253. WALKED AWAY..or HELD THEIR TONGUES... trust me.. this aint over!

There is so much more than statistics... its so sad seeing people defend bush without even knowing it, trying to be fair.. they believe we wont call them on the big lie, we are too rational and would need "hard evidence". Well.. I for 1 have seen more than enough "evidence" of the criminal activities of bush! Apparently you need to see more... since you can't wrap your mind around the mutlifaceted fraud that took place. I admit I don;t know how many votes for Kerry were lost, but neither do you... the difference is I don't give bush the benefit of the doubt.. and as with all other bush issues.. once you scratch the surface, it starts to stink of BS and you find a brick wall!

[DARE to HOPE]

282. Haha! "The statistiscs (sic) stuff doesn't do it for me"

Maybe it would if you had a graduate degree in poli sci and statistics like I do! There is a consortium of university professors and statisticians who have PROVEN from the external AND internal numbers that there was undeniable FRAUD! This is a standard area of study with a set of rules for establishing proofs.

But if "the statistiscs (sic) stuff doesn't do it" for you, perhaps neither does the study of physics or geology when it comes to studying how the world was created!

Sheesh! I am a life long Christian myself, but the God I worship believes in education and learning! He also is the God of Truth. And this Bush gang is in mortal peril for all the LIES they have told, starting with the elections they STOLE.

[sendero]

285. Exactly what else are you waiting for?

Do you expect a repentant computer hacker to come forward? (one did, he committed suicide soon thereafter).

Do you expect Bush** to have a fit of conscience and proclaim that he is a fraud?

Really, what IS your fucking point, because really - DU got along fine without your opinion for a long time.

[murielm99]

18. Echo chamber?

Even a simple Google search turns your assertion on its' head.

[Andy_Stephenson]

27. Well lets see.

There is so much in your post you obviously don't understand.

I have seen the fraud...found the fraud. Believe me...Florida and Ohio were stolen. Blatently.

[ObaMania]

228. And I would hazard a guess that some Southwestern states

..were stolen as well. And I would think that there was fraud in VA too! Too many states were too close to call, and on election night, the looks of defeat on the idiots at FAUX New's faces told the whole story. Kerry had it in the bag, and they'd better do something quick. And they did. Look, the focus was on FL and OH. The * enablers probably had a slick network of operatives (and Diebold) throughout the US who shaved votes. Question. How many Democrats that you know of had any oversight powers at any polls and can 100% say that they witnessed no fraud?

I'm sorry but with the lockdown in OH, the "boxes" of votes mysteriously being carted off in Fl, and long lines at inadequate polling stations across the country, it would take a complete moran to not think something was up.

Believe me, this election was even nastier than 2000. The 'Cons have waited years for this moment, plotting and planning and they were not going to let this 8 years slip through their fingers.

Just too bad Bev Harris took our $$ and ran, the MSM shot down all stories about fraud and started the mantra that exit polls are suddenly wrong, and all people in power on the Dem side were too chickenshit to stand up against the 'Cons and call for an investigation.

Sorry for the small rant, but this is how it's gonna be going forward people, get used to it!

[smoogatz]

30. I find it hard to accept, too--

but a lot of very smart people outside DU have looked closely at the stats, and concluded that something is clearly wrong with the official vote count. Go to uscountvotes.org and read the report they issued a couple of days ago. It's pretty convincing.

[Village Idiot]

31. Then I would suggest you read about it elsewhere...

[Sydnie]

32. I'm sure Conyers, Boxer, Tubbs Jones, and others

don't agree with you at all. You aren't hearing it any where else but here BECAUSE we:

Don't control the media
Don't have control of the Senate or the House
Don't have control of major publications

Now to mention that : so much of the "sheeple" just can't fathom it. If they could really wrap their minds around it, they still wouldn't know what to do about it. That is more evidence that "they" have done their job well ... keep the people busy with which model they want to win a contract from a tv show, or which person can last the longest and stink the most on some remote location without pissing everyone around them off.

Not that this is a purely "intellectual" subject, most could understand it and react to the "facts" if they were educated on how it should work and why it didn't work that way since 2000.

A good number of people can't figure out a ballot, much less follow all the intricate twists to this travesty.

If you don't buy it, then you aren't as informed as you could be ... and they are COUNTING on that.

[ginnyinWI]

130. and even if some of them knew the election was definitely stolen,

they simply would not care. If they can justify an illegal invasion of a country in the name of defending us against terrorism, and still vote for the guy, they can certainly justify a stolen election. They don't care what * has to do to stay in power, as long as he keeps us "safe". :grr:

And I know that there are Kerry voters who, now that the election is over, simply don't think about politics anymore, thinking "why bother? Nothing you can do about it anyway." They feel helpless, so think of something else.

[Sydnie]

154. I hear you and agree

Eeeking out a living these days has distracted many from the past election. But, more and more, as prices on EVERYTHING rise, making it harder to make ends meet for many, they are beginning to come to the same conclusion anyway ... that something is dreadfully wrong with our government and the men leading it.

I don't even think it's a matter of "keeping us safe" as much as it's a matter of "making a mark" and being given a place in history. Living in the shadow of "the greatest generation" has been, I think, quite a source of pressure for the "boomers" anyway. What mark were they going to leave? They needed to be patriotic and be part of something larger than themselves. Doesn't matter that they didn't learn from the mistakes of Vietnam. They bought the "my country, right or wrong" mantra (passed by many Vietnam Vets to this generation, IMHO) and they can't allow themselves to see that they were duped.

My name is Sydnie, and I am not turning a blind eye to the death of my country. Let the light shine in!

[quiet.american]

34. "Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio"

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf

From the website of Congressman John Conyers, Jr.; sample title chapters from the Table of Contents:

Machine Allocations: Why were there such long lines in Democratic leaning areas and not in Republican leaning areas?

Targeting New Minority Voter Registrants - Caging

Targeting Minority and Urban Voters for Legal Challenges

Exit Polls Bolster Claims of Irregularities and Fraud

This documentation of the investigation by Rep. Conyers makes a compelling case for bold-faced election fraud -- if one is sincerely interested in what really happened.

[johnaries]

37. Two Words: Exit Polls

None of the explanations offered for the polls being so far off hold any water. How about the polls just prior to the election? What about Zogby's analysis of Bush's chances based on his low popularity?

Every single indicator points to Kerry winning the election - EXCEPT for the actual vote count.

[Toucano]

41. We may not have won the popular vote,

I can't say for sure, but I'm increasingly certain we won Ohio and therefore had an electoral college victory, like Dubya's 2000 "victory".

Fraud in Ohio is real. Proof will come out.

[Pacifist Patriot]

43. No, it's not just DU...

There are no less than 50 organizations out there trying to beat the drum about this. Typical liberal decentralization.

I am the last person in the world to subscribe to "conspiracy theories" and at this point no one could possibly convince me that the Republicans did not steal the presidency and quite a few key senatorial seats. Who knows what else.

My apologies for the insult, but I have gotten to the point where I question the critical thinking skills of anyone who does not see major problems with the 2004 election. You have to be blind.

I hope it's curable.

:)

[On the Road]

105. "Major Problems" is Not the Question

The question is whether the election was "stolen" by election fraud, not whether the campaign was dirty or whether all of Blackwell's decisions were legal. None of the evidence demonstrates that.

It is claimed that there's only a 959-million-to-one chance the discrepancy between the official vote and the election polls was random. That claim shows a extremely basic misunderstanding of statistics. It would be true ONLY if the sample was taken of actual votes, not of conversations with voters on the way out of the polls.

I think the misleading claims of proof have been extremely damaging to the election fraud effort. Apparently false claims like Bev Harris's tussle with county officials are worse than silence.

I would like to see more effort and more publicity on the minutiae that really do smack of fraud -- claims of machines flipping Kerry votes to Bush, what happened during the lockdown north of Cincinnati, reports of stickers covering Kerry votes on optical ballots in the Columbus area. That's what could break the issue wide open, but those issues seem to have faded. I don't know if it's because they haven't held water (the stickers seem suspect to me) or because election fraud proponents are chasing the polling issue, a dog which is never going to hunt.

Even if minor fraud can be proven, that will call the election into question. It doesn't have to be 65,000 flipped votes in Ohio, it just has to be proven.

[oasis]

51. Question: Would you buy a used car from Kenneth Blackwell?

[meganmonkey]

55. READ THE REPORT, then get back to us

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf

This is Conyers' report. It's just over 100 pages long. But if you haven't read this, you haven't even begun to research this subject.

Have fun, it's enlightening.


on edit: Looks like quiet.american already linked to to this report above - so I am seconding that recommendation ;)

[Stephanie]

57. yeah, that'll happen

[meganmonkey]

64. Well, you know...

I have 15 minutes to kill before I go home. I figure I can either ignore the thread and be frustrated, or copy and paste a link I have bookmarked...You never know! Maybe it will get read!?

:)

[bpilgrim]

67. but others will

so we gotta hand it to JS for bringing this critical topic up ;->

opportunity is always knocking :bounce:

:hi:

peace

[ltfranklin]

58. It's not about absolute proof...

It's about probable cause!

They had motive.
They had means.
They had the Opportunity.

I would say there is more than enough here to AT LEAST justify an in-depth investigation...I mean, there's more probable cause here than they had in Whitewater!

[bpilgrim]

59. goin with yer gut, eh?

that's aight, yer with the majority

FYI: the DU 'echo chamber' point out that 2 elections have been fraudulent do to BBV.

peace

[XemaSab]

61. The exit polls are complete garbage

and any "conspiracy theory" relying on statistical analysis of exit polls is complete garbage.

Why?

Because the exit polls did not take into account absentee voters, who tend to skew old and conservative.

So of course there were discrepencies in the exit polls, the exit polls weren't getting anything close to a representative sample of voters.

[Vektor]

72. Right. They only overturned

THE WHOLE UKRAINIAN ELECTION AT THE URGING OF BUSH HIMSELF -
Because the EXIT POLLS didn't match the result.
C'mon. Exit polls have been used to validate election results since day one.
Absentee voters do not "skew old and conservative" they skew "liberal and afraid on having their vote "lost" by a Diebold machine."

As a poll worker I can tell you that the elderly Republicans turn out in droves, the Libs hand deliver their absentee ballot to the elections office.

[XemaSab]

109. Did they have absentee voters in the Ukraine?

And as a poll worker, how can you know the ages of the voters who mail in their ballots?

Having volunteered as a phone banker before elections, it usually sounds like the older folks who have already mailed their ballots in.

[Vektor]

150. I also worked in the elections office -

so I saw the people delivering their ballots.

[XemaSab]

155. What about mailed ballots?

n/t

[Vektor]

158. What about them?

We have the date of birth of every voter on file.
Not that any of this this is relevant.
What's most relevant is Bush calling out the Ukraine for fraud ON ACCOUNT OF EXIT POLLS.

He apparently feels they are valid.

Regardless of any nay-saying, I stand firm in my position that this election was a sham. My experiences working for the election office, and at the polls, as well on as the research and recount efforts give me more than enough insight.

I base my opinions on my own personal experiences, not the opinions of others. Basically, I judge by what I SEE, NOT what others, whose motives may or may not be sincere, SAY.

[qwghlmian]

185. No, the exit polls in Ukraine were NOT accurate

and the overturning of the elections was NOT based on them, as I pointed out here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3422737#3423096

And no, exit polls have NOT been used to validate election results in the US, as I show here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3422737#3422932

Why people keep repeating these obvious falsehoods, I have no idea.

[Vektor]

263. Save it.

You "point out" a lot of things - that hardly means they are true.

No one is repeating "falsehoods." Those of us who work for the election offices know how things work. Please get over yourself.

[qwghlmian]

275. It is a fact, incontrovertible,

that Ukrainian exit polls were completely wrong. I showed it to you with numbers in the above links. If you choose to ignore it, that's your prerogative, but it is still true.

[Vektor]

320. That's not what I'm arguing.

I'm saying that BUSH HIMSELF advocated a reversal of the Ukrainian election, and stated (I WATCHED HIM ON TV) that "the exit polls were grossly out of sync with the results, this suggests fraud."

It's funny how he thought the exit polls were worthy of scrutiny there, but the discrepancies get dismissed here.

Wonder why?

[qwghlmian]

321. Do you take everything that

Bush says as gospel?

[Vektor]

322. Oh hell no. Do you?

I take most everything he says as BULL JIVE.

But I do take notice when he spouts hypocrisy. Which is often.

[qwghlmian]

326. I am afraid you did in this case -

you repeat Bush's statements about Ukrainian exit polls as if they were true, and you repeat the falsehood that exit polls in the Ukraine (and in the US) are designed to verify the election results. They are not.

Exit polls that could do that would cost at least 10 times more than the exit polls that are conducted today and would involve government taking part. Germans do that, for example.

[Vektor]

330. HAHAHAHAHA I assure you -

While your clever attempt at putting words in my mouth, and assuming you know how I feel about Bush is a nice distraction away from the issue, it doesn't wash. Nice of you to assume you know what I'm thinking, but dead wrong.

Stop with the red herrings. You are obviously twisting everything I say beyond recognition, and making phony assumptions about your version of what I said.

Thanks for playing, game over.

End of discussion.

[qwghlmian]

332. Don't have to know what you're thinking -

it's enough to see what you're saying. And what you're saying is false, and repeats Bush's false statements. Instead of admitting that and correcting yourself, you choose to huff. Your choice.

[radwriter0555]

62. Yes, we're worried about our credibility here. Far better to pretend that

nothing happened, rather than to have the balls to acknowledge that some of us know exactly what happened in these past 2 selections.

Heil Bush, right?

[Jesus Saves]

63. The vaunted 'exit polls'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3422737&mesg_id=3422932&page=

[Sewsojm]

66. Did you have a hard time buying into WMD??

[ElkHunter]

68. I believe the election was stolen in 2000...

...but not this time around. Like it or not, I believe Dubya and the Repugs did indeed win in 2004. To put the blame for the loss elsewhere is unproductive in that it hinders our efforts in 2006 and beyond. After all, if the GOP is just going to steal the elections anyway, what's the use of expending the money and energy necessary to be involved in the process?

[Stephanie]

71. If we don't guarantee free, honest and transparent elections

then we might as well just annoint Bush emperor and be done with it. This is the most crucial fight we have right now and to dismiss it without fixing the problems is insane.

One simple question: do you ever in your life remember people standing in line TEN HOURS to vote? Does that indicate anything to you? Like perhaps election officials were not eager to let everyone vote who wanted to vote? And if they will do something that blatant, what else will they do?

[Jesus Saves]

75. I totally agree

What happened in Florida in 2000 was akin to theft. Judicial theft at the very least - overriding the will of the people.

This time around it's not so clear cut, not at all.

[Stephanie]

78. That's exactly the problem!

It's not clear! We have no way to verify the results. Why not?

[Jesus Saves]

87. It's clear enough to say

that the evidence is not there that it was stolen.

Problems, yes. But the kind that exist in many elections. The focus should be on fixing those problems. Saying the whole thing was stolen is unproductive, IMO - like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Stephanie]

92. read the Conyers Report

[mattclearing]

142. This is where you are mistaken.

In Ohio people stood in line for 10 hours. Voting machines were scarce in minority neighborhoods.

These are not normal problems. There's nothing normal about having a single voting machine in a precinct that is supposed to service a university.

It was intentional.

You don't seem to be willing to even consider the possibility that it could have been stolen.

[DARE to HOPE]

286. Haha! You're a fraud, "Jesus"

The evidence IS there that it was stolen! The touch screen machines had reversed numbers for Kerry and Bush in county after county, in many states. Democratic voters were kept from voting in provable, concerted fashion, especially in Ohio and other urban states. And television networks were again pressured in unprecedented ways to prematurely "call it for Bush!"

The evidence is DEEP and WIDE and YOU KNOW IT!

Sooooooo--what is your purpose in pursuing this argument?

[Stevepol]

85. A lot of people evidently think they know more than 10 PhDs

in statistics. Their conclusion: the discrepancy between the exit polls and the reported vote results could not have happened by chance. Get that? COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED BY CHANCE. In other words, something was wrong with either the exit polls or the vote counting. Those are your two choices. Take your pick, then support it with facts not gibberish. Otherwise, go directly to JAIL, do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_20...

[bobbieinok]

184. Precisely!!!!!....this is why so many 'can't' believe 2004 was stolen

'...if the GOP is just going to steal the elections anyway, what's the use of expending the money and energy necessary to be involved in the process?'

many of us DO believe the election was stolen ..... and can't sleep because we are asking ourselves.. '...if the GOP is just going to steal the elections anyway, what's the use of expending the money and energy necessary to be involved in the process?'

[Yupster]

231. The best article I saw right after the election

Was in the New York Times Magazine section.

They had a reporter follow around the Ohio head of ACT (America Coming Together). He worked for months in Ohio registering new voters. Then on election day they had a gigantic get out the vote effort.

When election day started, he was nervous but confident. They had done more at the street level than had ever been done before. When the first exit polls came in, they were confident.

However, as the day went on, each seceeding exit poll showed the race closer and closer, and he got more and more nervous.

Toward the end of the day, he drove by some Republican precincts, and his heart sank as he saw the turnout figures.

By the time the polls closed, he was still hopeful, but not at all confident. He was not at all surprised when the numbers came in against him.

This was a guy who knew the state precinct by precinct better than the Kerry campaign did, and he knew he was in trouble.

[Redstone]

69. "The echo chamber of DU?"

If I didn't know better, I'd interpret that as kind of an insult.

But hey, what do I know?

Redstone

[bpilgrim]

yeah, it's all in our heads according to some posters here

but i am always glad when they bring up these critical topics as it helps to spread the word even more ;->

peace

[Snotcicles]

76. Your last line?

How can talking to much about, and doubting election results every take away credibility? That sounds like something someone trying to supress the facts would spin.

[Jesus Saves]

82. Calling it definetaly stolen

That's what I'm talking about.

[Redstone]

84. Jesus Christ, your username is funny. I like it!

Redstone

[slackmaster]

77. It's a rationalization

Much easier to blame the loss on skulduggery by the enemy than to face our own problems and mistakes.

Certainly it's the prerogative and the responsibility of each side to watch the other to prevent cheating.

[Griffy]

254. BS.. its alot easier to change what we do than get free elections..

I wish we had lost fair.. then We would know we needed a better message and messanger and so on.. but its not so.. sadly we have a corrupt criminal running our goverment and we the people have lost the only peaceful way we have to change a governemtn we don't like. This is so big some people cn't grasp it.. some her I think are lurkers.. working to spread doubt.. I know from the politics online conference I went to in DC that republicans have people bloggin on Dem sites to sway public opnion.. and that was from the bush/chenney guy. Look.. if you cant see the fraud, or handle the ALL the fact AT ONCe.. not pick a few facts and say see.. no real evidence... SEVERAL people here told all of you doubters to go look at Conyers report... and nobody return saying.. heres what Conyers is wrong on!

So dems..please give us the benefit of the doubt.. bush is a crook, don't undermine us... we won't make you look "bad".

and lurkers.. I know your watching and typing as if your one of us... why do you undermine our nation.. if bush was not what we say.. why all the decit and stonewalling! Give up the dark side, we will forgive you! Money won't buy you happiness.

[Swamp Rat]

261. Or, why are the RW lurkers HERE instead of Iraq,

fighting for their master's oil!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

83. And I have a hard time believing you're

nevermind... :eyes:

[Vektor]

86. You aren't the only one.

Didn't we just have this talk yesterday?
:-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

88. Seems like it!

:hi:

[Laurab]

241. Add me to that list. n/t

[CatWoman]

91. he was born again

cause he didn't get it right the first time ;-)

[Jesus Saves]

98. If you don't like what someone says

call them a freeper.

I've noticed that tendency here a lot. The irony is, that tendency is in and of itself very 'freeperesque.'

[Susang]

114. That's a funny post

Didn't you just prove your own point by using the word "freeperesque" to describe something that *you* don't like or agree with?

And so the circle jerk continues......

on edit: This is from one of your earlier posts in this thread. Apparently, it's okay for you to call people you don't agree with "freeperesque" repeatedly?

"And frankly some on DU exhibit 'freeperesque' qualities - believing in what they want to believe in spite of the evidence."

Pot, meet kettle.

[Jesus Saves]

125. I made an argument in my OP

An argument that quite frankly I think a majority of non-DU Dems would agree with.

For that - I get called a Freeper. That was my point.

[Susang]

149. You called DUers "Freeperesque"

How is that any different than what you are accusing others of?

[Mugweed]

151. Can you say...?

How about this:

I can't remember the references and I'm too damn lazy to look up any links. I remember reading somewhere NOT on DU that the same statistical analysis the USA used to proclaim the Ukraine elections a fraud also showed the USA 2004 election to be a fraud.

If someone out there has those links ready, why not just use that angle? Hell, I don't have to claim the 2004 election was stolen. Bush did it for me when he called out the Ukraine.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

116. I've seen a pattern in a lot of your posts. I would never accuse

you of anything. The posts seak for themselves.

[Susang]

120. Of course you are

But check out my updated post above. "He" does not seem to share your generous and kind nature. ;-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

129. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt

but his posts are at best questionable and at worst inflammatory.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vektor]

127. HELL YES!!!

I'd say your personal experiences, mine, and many others on this site who WORKED with the campaigns, for the election offices, and on the "recount" do trump the nay-saying of one negative individual who clearly is hell-bent on spreading dissent and nothing more.

He spouts what he wants to believe, but to those of us who were THERE it doesn't wash.

[Kerrytravelers]

141. I was censored.

It was me. I questioned the origional posters motivations and told my story of assisting with voters who called for legal assistance in Flordia regarding voter fraud.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

144. Was that in Volusia county?

I heard that there were issues there...

[Kerrytravelers]

148. Mostly- yes. But since I was on the phones, I spoke to people all over FL.

[Jesus Saves]

147. Honestly

As I remember it, I thought your post was fine. I don't remember all of it, but your story of hard work touched me. Maybe there was some sort of accusation, but I don't recall it. If there was one it didn't stick in my mind. Many of posts on this thread by other posters are more blatant than whatever was in your post.

(I think the title of your post saying you were going to cross the line unduly attracted mod attention).

For the record, I didn't alert on your post, in fact, I've never alerted on any post.

[FtWayneBlue]

96. I participated in the "recount" in Ohio.

I was not done according the the proper legal procedures.
If it had been, I think many people would have been surprised at the results. But the powers that be did not want that to happen, at any cost, so hand counting was not done when the law plainly called for it.

Also, there was massive voter disenfranchisement. Enough to change the election results? I believe that it was, all "official" news releases to the contrary.

[Vektor]

119. Absolutely right!

But this guy doesn't want to hear that!
Or won't.

[mattclearing]

99. Funny, I have a hard time buying the Jesus line.

An evangelical Christian is dogging out DU for the lack of evidence of its beliefs?

With all due respect to Christianity, there's a great deal more physical evidence of vote fraud in Ohio and Florida than there is of the Resurrection.

Give me a break.

[Kerrytravelers]

128. laughing... too... hard... to... even... check... my... spelling...

With all due respect to Christianity, there's a great deal more physical evidence of vote fraud in Ohio and Florida than there is of the Resurrection.



:rofl:

[earth mom]

255. Touche!

:applause:

And...all anyone needs to do to read up on the-FOR SURE PROOF POSITIVE ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY-Stolen Election is to go back and read the posts since Nov 3rd in the election forum. There is a TON of evidence there.

[Swamp Rat]

262. Damn! I can't believe I missed your post earlier!

:rofl:

[LibertyorDeath]

108. 'I have a hard time buying the 'stolen election' line'

What other things do you "have a hard time buying from the echo chamber of DU"

[brettdale]

112. It was stolen

Hopefully it will still come out. I mean take Ohio like the repugs did. At the Kerry Rally there, they got around 130 thousand people, the media said ten thousand, Bush would of gotten 20 thousand tops for his rally the media said 80 thousand.

I have been to several blogs and webpages, and they all list things that dont add up.

[B Calm]

123. I wished I had a link to Randi Rhodes shows for the days right

after the election. She went into detail about all the shenanigans that took place during and after the election.

[Stephanie]

126. All you need is the speeches made by the Dems in the House

during the debate on the day of the Boxer Rebellion Jan. 6 when they objected to certifying the OH electors.

[JNelson6563]

134. I believe there was fraud

but I believe it was so close it didn't take a whole lot of fraud to tip it. I don't think they have achieved the fraud capabilities of turning around a landslide (yet).

What we *need* is a candidate who can win in a landslide. That means we'll need someone who is actually willing to fight for every state and who offers real alternative from what the Rethugs will offer, not a milder version of same.

Julie

[Frederik]

145. Statistics can't prove anything

beyond reasonable doubt. Nothing can be proven, because those machines leave no paper trail. And therein lies the rub. Statistics are unreliable, but the point is, if they wanted to manipulate the result, it would be very easy to do it and get away with it. Nothing can be proven, it was a close race anyway, and that's why almost nobody are talking about it anymore. What's the use. If there's one thing "serious" people would rather avoid, it's the label "conspiracy theorist".

The companies that counted those electronic votes and supplied the voting machines are run by convicted fraudsters and Christian dominionists. If that doesn't make you worry a little bit about the state of democracy in America, then nothing will.

See, for starters, here:
http://www.madcowprod.com/11242004.html

and here:
http://www.madcowprod.com/mc6912004.html

[Joe Chi Minh]

163. Wrong Frederick.

It is precisely where physical evidence is ambiguous, for whatever reason, that statistics come into their own. They represent the most compelling proof of all. It just suits the purpose of the law- enforcement agencies of all kinds to rely on physical evidence, as the prime indicator of guilt or innocence.

Yet we know that the very assumptions that criminal investigators use at the outset of their investigations, are such statistics as spouses being prime suspects in murders, circumstantial evidence that can be seen as elementary commonsense. They don't need to understand the statistical mathematics.

It is also called "form", if you bet on the horses. Bookmakers, very shrewd guys, rely on it heavily.

[Frederik]

318. I'm with you

But it's all a question of what people (talking about the general public)are going to accept as proof in a case like this. Nothing is ever proven except in people's minds, that is, you decide when you believe something is proven. And, the idea that an American election could be stolen is probably so counter-intuitive to most people that it would require exceptional or at least "hard" evidence for them to accept it. I wouldn't consider exit polls "hard" evidence, though certainly circumstantial. The case could be made, for instance, that Republicans are more annoyed by pollsters than Democrats, or whatever. For Americans to accept the reality that their votes have been manipulated, they need something like a document saying "Hi Jeb. I've manipulated the results of the election, like you explicitly asked me to. See ya", reprinted in the Washington Post (If it were Ukraine, the circumstantial evidence that exists would have been enough to oust the Bush regime). Exit polls won't convince many, I fear.

[wildflower]

152. Newspapers: columnists; Radio: AAR, Jones; TV: Olbermann; Gov't: Reps.

I've seen much more out there on election fraud than just what's written on the blogs and DU.

-Edgar J. Steele (a conservative), Christopher Hitchens, and Mark Crispin Miller are among columnists who have written on the topic.

For example, here is an article by Steele (I recommend it to all conservatives):

We've Been Had
by Edgar J. Steele, November 8, 2004

http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/bushwon.htm

-Many AAR hosts and Jones Network hosts have talked about it, including Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy, Janeane Garofalo, Stephanie Miller, and Ed Schultz.

-And on TV, Keith Olbermann did coverage for quite a while.

-Several House and Senate representatives have spoken out on it as well.

-Finally, there have been quite a few university studies on the topic (one came out just yesterday), and lots of news articles that have appeared in papers around the country and the world.

Everyone, am I missing any sources, or do you have some links you'd like to add in to the outline I sketched above?

-wildflower

[meganmonkey]

160. FOLLOW THE LINKS, JESUS!!!

Why are you ignoring posters who are providing links? You are primarily responding to people expressing opinions, or those who are providing statistics without links.

If you want to see evidence of Election Fraud outside of DU, you need to FOLLOW THE LINKS!!!

At least two people on this thread have provided links to the Conyers report, which is a comprehensive look at what went down on Ohio. But here it is again, in case you missed it:

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf

Here is a link to a database of more than 40,000 reports of election incidents:
https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapNation

Here is a link to literally HUNDREDS of articles, editorials, reports, studies about fraud and irregularities in the 2004 election:

http://www.jqjacobs.net/bush/

You can't sincerely say you 'only hear about it at DU' if you don't look in other places. The legwork has been done for you. Check it out.

If your goal is to rile people up, you clearly know how to do it. But you might as well try to learn something while you are at it, if you are at all interested.

[mattclearing]

165. It's not worth it.

Every time I've posted valid info, he's ignored it, and it's the same with the others, yourself included.

This person only wants to incite, not to be enlightened.

While it is a smart ploy to be an "evangelical Christian" on DU (think of the martyrdom factor when he inevitably is tombstoned), the lack of attention to real information shows him for what he is.

He has since left to post about his favorite blogs.

[meganmonkey]

171. I know - you're absolutely right

I was just bored and I figure this thread may attract readers who are interested in this topic but who haven't read much about it. So maybe someone will check out the links...

:hi:

[Jesus Saves]

167. Let me quote KOS....

"So why didn't I find the Ohio stuff compelling? Because the wacked out conspiracy theories hijacked the issue, taking it away from the obvious travesties -- the long lines in Democratic precincts, attempted voter intimidation, etc., to the realm of fantasy.

Us liberal bloggers like to brag that we live in the "reality-based community". It's kind of hard to be reality-based when people are claiming that Kerry won with no hard evidence to the contrary. Was there fraud? Sure. There always has been. Was the GOP ready to steal the election if necessary? No doubt. But they didn't have to steal this one. This wasn't 2000. Bush rode his fucked up war to victory, whether we like it or not. History will judge us right, but until then, we're stuck with the results.

Now, I was open minded at first, letting the fraudsters do the analysis, ready to pounce if the smoking gun was found. But after myriad diaries crying wolf, claiming that this was the evidence to seal the deal, well, it got old. Then it got counterproductive, then it got embarrassing.

3. All the crying wolf is hurting the cause for electoral reform. This has been painted as a partisan issue pushed forth by wacko liberals who think Kerry won the election when Bush won. What do we need?

* Extend election day to at least a week. Keep ALL polls open during that time, not just a few at county HQ.

* Get rid of partisan election officials. A more ridiculous and inherently unfair system can never exist. It is the King of Conflicts of Interests.

* Implement a national standard for voting and fund it.

* Get rid of touch screen voting machines. A paper trail is useless, as a machine could easily be programmed to cast the vote for candidate A, while printing a receipt with candidate B's name on it.

* Select optical scan machines. The technology allows for quick tabulation of the votes, while retaining a paper trail for random audits and full recounts.

* All precincts that reported lines longer than one hour should be required to add voting machines before the next election.

* The pitiful state of voting infrastructure in poor and minority areas is literally criminal, and redress should be sought both in the legislatures and in the courts.

* Ditch the electoral college.

And so on. That's just stuff off the top of my head. These are all non-partisan issues. But the Ohio Fraudsters have not just made the issue highly partisan, but they have cried wolf so many times that it's easy for opponents to dismiss ALL of these issues. "

http://pls.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/135759/4341

Problems, yes...definitive proof of a stolen election - no.

[meganmonkey]

170. Nice excerpt and link, but did you read the report?

I would really like to see your reaction to Conyers' 100 page report, the 40,000 reported incidents, and the several hundred articles on the site I linked to. I won't bother pasting the links again.

I also won't bother checking for a response since I know you'll be busy reading :)

Peace.

[Griffy]

256. Still trying to use this crap to support your weak undermining effort!

LOL... its sad.. go see his use of this same article to attack his favorite bush lie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1704656#

please.. stop hindering our democracy and go join the army..

[Swamp Rat]

264. That's what I'M talkin' about!

If you want to HELP Bush, go join the military and go to Iraq, TOMORROW!!! :mad:

[datasuspect]

161. this is not a disinfo thread

these aren't the lies you're looking for

please access www.freerepublic.com for further info . . .

[Zorra]

162. Please read all the linked information in the thread that I post here

and see if you still feel the same way when you are done. It would be very good thing if you could become informed about this issue.:-)

DU Electronic Voting Links Library:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=3390&mesg_id=3390

[saltpoint]

164. Democracy is important enough for us all to wait for --

-- representatives of states' political parties to count the votes by hand on paper ballots, so that the count is satisfactory to all. We can do without butter churns but not without reliable voting technologies. Counting ballots is a pretty good system.

When Diebold machines (and others like Diebold's) appear in swing states with conspicuously Republican governors and conspicuously Republican Secretaries-of-State, AND there seem to be extensive complaints, legal actions, and irregularities in those swing states under Republican superivision, I'd call that puzzlin' evidence.

My gut calls it cheatin' and I don't like it much.

The phrase 'felony voter fraud' springs to mind.

Gore won in 2000. Kerry-Edwards won last November.

Rove, Bush, et al cheated like mangy dogs.

[Generic Guy]

166. I have a hard time buying,

'the election wasn't stolen' line. The chances that the exit polls were that far off are damn near one in a million. I think the actual number was 1 in 90.8k or something like that.

[linazelle]

169. And where did you find that "stattistic"? Try reading the report

links above if you need more info. Or, believe what you want and ignore the evidence.

[Generic Guy]

172. I heard it on

Air America the Laura Flanders show.

[wildflower]

199. Oh, I forgot to include her in my list above...thank you! n/t

[Generic Guy]

203. You are welcome.

It was the first time I ever heard her we just got AAR last month. And of course I didn't hear about it until a couple of weeks ago.

[demgurl]

174. I think the thing that really did it for me.....

was not the solid scientific statistical information. Nor was it the head of Diebold promising to do everything he could do. It was not all of the newspaper articles I read either. I guess the most convincing evidence of fraud, for me, was when I found out about th numbers in Florida. These were not just any numbers. These were not statistics as such. These were the reports for each county and were put out by the county I do believe. Anyway, it really struck me when more people voted than were even registered to vote in a couple of different counties. The counties this happened in just, by pure coincidence, happened to go to Bu$h.

If it walks like a dick and quacks like a duck then I call it a duck.

[MARALE]

310. Okay, was that a freidian slip or what?

If it walks like a dick and quacks like a duck then I call it a duck.
:spray:
:rofl:
:spank:

[Swamp Rat]

175. Have you learned anything yet Jesus Saves?

You've been given the red-ass for sure. :spank:

I hope you read the links provided in this thread and catch up with the rest of us. Otherwise, you may become a disruptive force in the search for truth.

Btw, thanks for bringing up this issue. It has reminded DUers to educate (again) the ignorant among us.

[Jesus Saves]

178. My position remains essentially the same

Problems, yes. Fraud, some. Election stolen, no. They won more votes. That's just the way it appears to me right now. Note the quote above from Kos, as well. Also, the poster who posted that exit polls have been wrong in the past - so many people get that point wrong.

[Swamp Rat]

180. "Problems, yes. Fraud, some. Election stolen, no." - Contradiction, yes.

FRAUD - (frôd)
n.
A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

A piece of trickery; a trick.

One that defrauds; a cheat.

One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

Synonym: Theft

"My position remains essentially the same" - Too bad, but at least you are helping by bringing up this topic. :)

edit: Thought you might like my bumper sticker.

[Jesus Saves]

181. Read

the Kos post - he says it perfectly.

[Swamp Rat]

182. What "Kos post" and what's so perfect about it?

Edit: I know what you are talking about now.

Advice: You are WAY behind the rest of us in your education on this subject. I suggest you STOP posting (on this subject) for a while and read the posts and links provided. It will save you from further embarrassment.

[CatWoman]

291. Is THAT all you have?

Jesus fucking Christ.

You're like a broken record.

I wonder -- why don't you just join the Kos community and leave us be?

All you're doing is spamming the board, citing Kos as if he's the Master of the Universe, and discounting the many valid posts on this thread.

What do you want from us???

Obviously, no one is buying what you're selling.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

177. Hiding This Kind of Theft Relies on Lack Of Technical Knowledge

... If that was the case, then unless you could understand what measures actually prevent such theft, its basically impossible to say whether it could be done let alone how it could be done.

Obviously there would be many steps taken to obfuscate the theft and diffuse culpability.

I'd like to believe you are an honest person truly asking the question, but you'll forgive me my suspicion. You see one key to hiding the theft is creating diversions to the question in the first place.

So are you a computer programmer? Can you spell XSLT?

If not you might as well be a OB-GYN for all the good it would be to discern malfeasance...

Good luck though!

And to everyone else not a disruptor, remember that no matter how complex their scheme, there are holes, and given the concerted effort, the truth may come tumbling out one day ...

[Vincardog]

179. Hey Jesus I am not buying your 'I just can't see it' Line

If you can't see the truth of the stolen election it is because you choose not to see it. It is much easier to pretend you live in a Democratic Republic than a FASCIST Theocracy.

[Kazak]

186. DU lies further beyond the event horizon of credibility...

...allowing such things to be pondered more openly.

[datasuspect]

187. du echo chamber?

i dunno . . . where am i?

lemme check the url . . . .



okay i'm back


it doesn't say www.freerepublic.com

[Swamp Rat]

189. du echo chamber?

i dunno . . . where am i? ... where am i? ... am i? ... am i? .. i? .. i?

[datasuspect]

190. if you have a really sick sense of humor

i have some photoshop images in my head that i'd like to see in reality.

[Swamp Rat]

191. Yes, I do...

:D

[datasuspect]

192. can you try and make my "vision" into reality?

please???

i have nothing to offer except my undying loyalty.

[Swamp Rat]

195. Put on 'the sunglasses' ...

What do you see?

[Goathead]

212. Eight O'Clock in the Morning

Classic short story. Do you know of any other works by Ray Nelson. I haven't been able to find any.

[Swamp Rat]

214. Here ya go:

http://raynelson.com/shortstories.html

[Goathead]

215. Thanks!

Are his other stories similar to "8o'clock in the morning"? I like the alien/reptoid theme.

[Swamp Rat]

216. I have no idea, but perhaps you can find out for the both of us.

:)

[ultraist]

194. Is this another "libruls are bad" thread?

:bounce:

Seems to be someone's hobby!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

196. Noticed that too, huh?

(Waitaminute...I think I told you this before...)

[Jesus Saves]

197. I'm a liberal

but I don't have agree with everything on DU.

[RetroLounge]

207. Please go read up more on the subject of the THEFT

you are embarassing yourself.

RL

[Patchuli]

229. Denial

is not just a river in Egypt, JS. Try reality.

This (p)Resident has not won an election on his own merit (sic) yet.
Why are you choosing to ignore this election theft pattern we've seen emerging since 2000? Do you realize this means our votes don't mean a damn? That should worry you...

[RagingInMiami]

201. In Florida in 2000, Bush beat Gore by 537 votes

In 2004, Bush beat Kerry in Florida by nearly 400,000 votes.

Where did the extra Bush votes come from?

Prior to this election, I volunteered for Kerry and Move ON and spoke to hundreds of people who voted for Bush in 2000 who were going to vote for Kerry. I have yet to meet a person who voted for Gore in 2000 only to vote for Bush four years later.

Has anyone?

Since 2000, the state's population grew so much they gave it an additional two electoral votes.

Most of the people who moved to Florida were democrats, including South Americans and Puerto Ricans, as well as thousands of northeastern transplants.

Then there was the butterfly ballot fiasco in palm beach in 2000,in which thousands of Jewish retirees voted for Pat Buchanan, as well as thousands of black voters who were intimidated and disfranchised that year. Let's not forget how Jeb Bush stationed his state troopers outside a polling place in north Florida that year.

Let's also consider how many Cubans voted against Gore for the Elian saga that occurred during Clinton's administration, and how many independents were pissed off about the Monica debacle.

In 2004, the Cuban community was split over Bush because he tightened the embargo, making it harder for them to send money back to their families in Cuba. Many who voted for Bush in 2000 voted for Kerry in 2004.

In 2004, the mostly democratic Jewish retirees in Palm Beach were extra careful how they voted this time. They were not going to get screwed twice.

In 2004, there were huge get-out-to-vote drives in the black communities across the state. They were not going to let themselves get intimidated this time.

On election day, I was working as an exit pollster north of downtown Miami. For every 20 Kerry voters, I counted one Bush voter. The next day, the official results from that precinct had Kerry winning by 70 percent.

That means that for every 20 votes Kerry received in that precinct, Bush received six.

I was there from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. along with three other pollsters. We added up our results and came up with 20 to 1 Kerry.

Where did the extra Bush votes come from?

During the election day, I was listening on the radio at how the exit polls from all over the state were showing Kerry winning huge. And these were polls from northern and central Florida, traditionally republican strongholds.

They had not even counted south Florida yet, which is the most liberal part of the state.

But just after 11 p.m. that night, the AP called Florida for Bush, saying he had won by almost 400,000 votes.

Where did the extra Bush votes come from?

It just doesn't add up. I will go to my grave convinced that Bush stole the election.

[KnowerOfLogic]

270. the 537 vote win in 2000 was probably a result of manipulation as well;

i mean, seriously, what are the chances of the vote being that close? Rove and Jebbie were probably stealing votes on the fly throughout the day, trying to get bush ahead, and they cut it a little too close.

[leftofthedial]

202. based on the available evidence,

it's way easier to "buy" than the god-jesus myth

[Media_Lies_Daily]

204. You should be ashamed of your lack of homework on this issue....

...go away and let the adults talk.

[Stephanie]

223. lol!

all the wasted posts on this thread, when you've just said all that needs to be said!

[Jesus Saves]

230. I've done it

"So why didn't I find the Ohio stuff compelling? Because the wacked out conspiracy theories hijacked the issue, taking it away from the obvious travesties -- the long lines in Democratic precincts, attempted voter intimidation, etc., to the realm of fantasy.
Us liberal bloggers like to brag that we live in the "reality-based community". It's kind of hard to be reality-based when people are claiming that Kerry won with no hard evidence to the contrary. Was there fraud? Sure. There always has been. Was the GOP ready to steal the election if necessary? No doubt. But they didn't have to steal this one. This wasn't 2000. Bush rode his fucked up war to victory, whether we like it or not. History will judge us right, but until then, we're stuck with the results.
Now, I was open minded at first, letting the fraudsters do the analysis, ready to pounce if the smoking gun was found. But after myriad diaries crying wolf, claiming that this was the evidence to seal the deal, well, it got old. Then it got counterproductive, then it got embarrassing.
3. All the crying wolf is hurting the cause for electoral reform. This has been painted as a partisan issue pushed forth by wacko liberals who think Kerry won the election when Bush won. What do we need?
* Extend election day to at least a week. Keep ALL polls open during that time, not just a few at county HQ.
* Get rid of partisan election officials. A more ridiculous and inherently unfair system can never exist. It is the King of Conflicts of Interests.
* Implement a national standard for voting and fund it.
* Get rid of touch screen voting machines. A paper trail is useless, as a machine could easily be programmed to cast the vote for candidate A, while printing a receipt with candidate B's name on it.
* Select optical scan machines. The technology allows for quick tabulation of the votes, while retaining a paper trail for random audits and full recounts.
* All precincts that reported lines longer than one hour should be required to add voting machines before the next election.
* The pitiful state of voting infrastructure in poor and minority areas is literally criminal, and redress should be sought both in the legislatures and in the courts.
* Ditch the electoral college.
And so on. That's just stuff off the top of my head. These are all non-partisan issues. But the Ohio Fraudsters have not just made the issue highly partisan, but they have cried wolf so many times that it's easy for opponents to dismiss ALL of these issues. "

http://pls.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/3/135759/4341

[Swamp Rat]

232. No you haven't. You're just repeating yourself and not listening.

You've avoided the posts that challenge your "argument" and you keep posting this Daily Kos link on DU. :spank: WE'VE READ IT! :eyes:

:spank: Haven't you had enough? Aren't you thoroughly embarrassed by now? :spank:

[Griffy]

257. LOL... AGAIN with this SAME little badly writen piece!

READ CONYERS REPORT .. QUOTE THAT ..

















...pathetic, and your the smart one too huh?!

[CatWoman]

293. aieeeeeeeeeeeeeee

the dreaded nonstop daily kos post.

aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

mommy, make it stop!!!!!!

[mattclearing]

306. You keep dragging out this Kos quote.

As if somehow reading one blog = research.

You ignore the fact that all disputed states broke in favor of Bush, and that SOS Blackwell refused to allow any scrutiny of the voting infrastructure beyond regurgitating the totals.

The biggest evidence of the stolen election is the cover-up. It's indisputable that Blackwell went out of his way to cover-up discrepancies in the system and leveraged his power as Secretary of State to avoid accountability.

You castigate people for a lack of evidence, but completely ignore the fact that a cover-up to keep evidence from coming to light took place.

And I still haven't seen you respond to Meganmonkey's posting of the link to the Conyers report.

Too busy flaming to bother learning anything new.

Go ahead and post the Kos quote again. You know everything you need to know, obviously.

:eyes:

[Eloriel]

224. First, DU isn't a blog

It's a discussion forum. If you read blogs, you'll notice a huge difference in how they're formatted and how they work versus DU. If you haven't noticed, perhaps it would be something worth paying attention to.

Second, "the echo chamber of DU." Well, isn't that special. I'll just leave that one unremarked. I think it speaks for itself. Volumes.

Finally, if you weren't paying a LOT of attention to the 2004 Election Results forum (and others), you really haven't had a good induction into the whole matter.

Try these, for just TWO of hundreds if not thousands:

NATIONAL EXIT POLL ANALYSIS: A DU TIA REFERENCE COLLECTION 03/27/05 (TIA)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x349559

UPDATED: MY COLLECTION OF EXIT POLL THREADS (TIA)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x343088

[clem_c_rock]

225. You must have a huge amount of faith in things like:

1. Mainstream media
2. Corperate vote counts
3. The GOP

I am a computer programmer and I can say the Diebold machine is MADE for vote rigging.

Here's a taste (More if you like)
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm#password

And if you're faith in the system can break through this I would love to hear some specifics:
http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

And if you have such faith in Mainstream media - I sure commend you on your undying faith (or maybe naivete):
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002228040_sundaygoodman03.html

[Cobalt Violet]

227. I have a hard time believing "jesus saves" but I have no problem ...

believing the stolen election line. But I tend to hold my head head is above sand level.

[jdj]

242. well, honey, as the saying goes

lead, follow, or get out of the way.

kindly step aside and let those with more courage handle this one.

you can just hang around on the cross and postulate, or something.

[kamqute]

247. Please take more time to research

I'd give you sources, but I'm sure you're being flooded with them. As for the 'stolen election' bit, I have to agree. I seriously doubt this election was stolen by any one agency, and I doubt that government had any more than a peripheral direct role in any of the proceedings. What we are seeing are the wonders of the free market--a bunch of fatcat corporations incestuously linked with each other and with people who receive benefits, quid-pro-quo and otherwise, from a second Bush term, have each made their small contribution to rig the vote.

[marions ghost]

311. Yes, the phenomenon of systematic bias

operates well when control of the country is in corporate hands. The following article explains how that worked:
------------------------------------
The Miami Herald Feb 03, 2005
ELECTIONS
Ukraine vote yields important lessons for U.S. democracy
BY LANCE DEHAVEN-SMITH

(excerpt)
"...unlike this year's presidential election in Ukraine, the 2004 presidential election in the United States was left intact despite legal challenges and protests. In large part this was because U.S. election laws and political culture fail to take into account the potential for systematic bias in election administration. U.S. laws and public opinion focus, instead, on the possibility that unscrupulous candidates might arrange for votes to be cast illegally by individuals using false identifications, forged absentee ballots, or other ruses.

Election shenanigans were common in the 19th Century and in much of the 20th, but in recent years they have been eclipsed by scattered mischief that is carried out or abetted by public officials responsible for election administration. One factor that has contributed to this shift from the conspiratorial tampering of the past to the massive fraud that is so prevalent today is the poorly conceived effort to remake government in the image of the private sector. In recent years, civil-service protections for government employees have been greatly weakened, and many governmental functions have been contracted out to private corporations.

These changes in American public administration have created a new spoils system that makes massive fraud likely in today's elections because it effectively ties public employment and government contracts to election outcomes. In Florida and Ohio, for example, many corporations, public officials and government workers had a vested interest in the reelection of President Bush. No conspiracy was needed to orchestrate their activities. Multiple biases with cumulative effects could be (and were) introduced into the election system through the independent efforts of numerous individuals acting on their own initiative in the pursuit of the same objective. Until U.S. election laws are reformed to guard against massive fraud, our elections will remain vulnerable to systemic abuses.

To be sure, bias in election administration could probably be prosecuted today under existing laws. Certainly, officials in Florida and Ohio appear to have violated their official oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the constitutions of their states. They may have also broken federal civil-rights laws by intentionally weakening the voting power of African Americans. However, these acts of massive fraud have gone unpunished -- and, indeed, uninvestigated -- because most Americans have yet to recognize the new form of election tampering that is undermining our democracy."

Lance deHaven-Smith is professor of public administration and policy at Florida State University.
------------------------

--Add this inherent bias to the probable cause arguments (of all kinds) as detailed well by others in this thread, and there's a very strong case for a deliberately "skewed" election, no matter how much you want to slice and dice the word "stolen."

[Griffy]

260. MOD..plz lock thread.. notice its tag team Jesussaves and qwghlmian

you can see them agreeing with each other.. and this happens in other threads too... I just ask you lock this

[Vektor]

265. Hey, you noticed that too!

I'm surprised this bilge is still flowing.

[Swamp Rat]

266. Yes... but the flypaper caught more than just two flies.

HAHA!!! I see you!!! :D

[Vektor]

267. Yep...

One gets stuck, and all the rest come to the rescue. Amazing isn't it?
:-)

(LOVE the artwork!)

[Griffy]

268. so .. who recommned this for greatest?

and who am I missing.. ;) shhh .. PM if you want

[Vektor]

271. Oh let me guess....

And while I'm at it, if the Mods want to know who is, well, "not interested in supporting the progressive cause" they need look no further than their vote logs.

[Swamp Rat]

273. Actually, I did.

:) I want other DUers to see all the bugs stuck to the flypaper. :D

[Swamp Rat]

269. Thanks... "Help me! ... Help meeee!"

:D

[CatWoman]

294. sorta like Bush and Guckert, eh?

[Jesus Saves]

309. For your information

I'd never even seen that poster before. So you're spreading lies.

Secondly, that poster eviscerated all the so-called arguments surrounding the exit polls.

[Jesus Saves]

308. Oh...poor thing....

Two people agreed and you didn't agree with them! How I feel for you!

Funny, I've never even seen that poster before.

[Count Popeula]

274. I've thought about this...

I think the reluctance of the general populace to accept the idea of vote-tampering is directly related to the nationalist sentiment in this country.

"It may happen in the Ukraine, but it doesn't happen in the US of A, we're the greatest nation in the history of time!"

When you use nationalism in the guise of patriotism or being a good citizen, you take away the desire of the average person to question the government... there goes that darn cognitive dissonance again.

"If the government lied and cheated, does that mean China could be a better country? I don't like the way that makes me feel, so you must be wrong, like those guys who claimed the CIA sold drugs to fund contras."

It's much easier to go with the majority than it is to think for yourself. If you don't believe that, well... why do you think Nike is so popular?

[seabeyond]

278. dont believe stolen, NO one has answered this question.

texas and new mexico

vote a straight dem ticket and it would give the pres vote to bush and the rest to dems. if you didnt check it in preview, that vote was registered to bush. even when it was previewed it would take three four five times trying to clear it before getting the vote to kerry. these were heavily democratic areas in texas. houston, austin el paso. many people reported they gave up and the vote went to bush

they knew the first day of two week early vote. they didnt correct it. on election day, they still hadnt corrected it.

1 in 3
1 in 4

what was the ratio of votes that went to bush

this happened across the country in different manners. but this is fact. it isnt a theory

how do you this is not election theft. what do you need. for repugs to stand up and say, we stole it. we confess. we will prove to the american people that we stole it

i mean, we have the repugs laugh about stealing it. and supporters laugh along with them. so i guess they are already saying. we know they did in 2000. how fuckin gullible can you be

[elehhhhna]

279. Shhh! Don't confuse freaps with facts. Sheesh. Ya buzzkill...

sarc/off

[seabeyond]

280. i put my kerry bumpersticker on car last week

and for a while i have been looking for a different one, with my message. i think it is time for our loved ones, friends co workers to actually start getting informed. i think they can hear it now. and it is time. the stupidest of this for me, people even "even" say, outloud,......so bush stole it 2000 2002 2004.......we have to move on. who are we going to get for 2008/ i think wtf,.....they are stealing it. doesnt matter who we get, they steal. the simple logic. i am laughing then crying on this one

anyway so the sticker for the other side will be,........election fraud in bold print

kerry on one side election fraud on another. my biggest issue at this moment, so what i will focus on

[devilgrrl]

284. I say this, I have a hard time buying your sincerity.

[Stephanie]

288. Cute!

I used to love those dolls!

[Junkdrawer]

287. I have a hard time buying the '[insert issue here]' line

I'm sure there were problems, but I don't see enough problems that would have tipped the ((issue)) the other way.

I read liberal blogs, and none of the major blogs seem to talk about this as much as DU. Few politicians have spoken of it, even very liberal ones, the kind you would expect to speak up.

The only place I really hear about it is the echo chamber of DU.

I admit that the ((issue)) had it's problems. It's important to speak out about it. But all the bluster about ((the issue)) may in the end take credibility away from those efforts.

[natrat]

289. I have a hard time buying the 'stolen election' line

anyone who thinks that electronic voting with no trail and unsecure machines is ok is a COMPLETE AND TOTAL DICK. Not to mention naive and probably just another bought and paid for whore. Jesus saves.... my ass.

[understandinglife]

292. Puke.Ignore.Bye (nt)

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[Snivi Yllom]

301. pssstt a little secret

It wasn't stolen. The election of 2004 was lost, practically thrown away by an inept campaign.

But that's the unpopular ugly truth many STILL do not want to accept or hear.

[natrat]

302. that is the beauty (horror actually) of e-voting

massive fraud that cant be detected. Given the way these people lie,on an institutional level, the question is why would anyone think they won legitimately?

[Swamp Rat]

313. There you are again, spreading right wing talking points!

:hi: Rove loves this, you know.

[SpaceBuddy008]

312. instigator posts like this SmackDown OR Not Bother Responding?

Like Mom's would say to those hassled by the 'bully' IGNORE THEM AND THEY WILL GO AWAY

while there is a tiny chance this 'Jsaver' is genuine, the language use and hot-button pushing memes like DU echo chamber and failure to mention names of other liberal sites mean this is

a troublemaker, paid agent or not, but distracter, slanderer of all the research and volunteer efforts undertaken by many members.

this poster is not really serious about caring to be in the know and fails to understand the significance, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH OR KERRY, but fraudulently makes a mockery of citizens time and efforts to ensure the process respects the sanctity of the vote. The audacity & phoniness of a claimed representative, constitutional gov, where the the shareholders, the citizens have lost their ability to replace the government, swing the pendulum, petition for redress of grievances, have their will measured, our paths, dreams honored, respected to have this sacred, democratic, human right NULLIFIED by secret vote counting is the last straw.

dammit election day is the one day we are all EQUAL.

and what is also in your face about this post is his in your face name ..a Jesus Salesmen?

YET WHERE IS HIS/HER COMPASSION TO ALL THE FOLK'S FROM 16 TO SENIOR CITIZENS WHO VOLUNTEERED THEIR TIME, MONEY AND PSYCHIC ENERGY TO ACHIEVE THE MOST MASSIVE gotv OPERATION IN HISTORY.... RAISING PaRTICIPATION LEVELS THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN 30-40 YEARS

AND THIS SIMPLE FACT: due to the fact there is no record for what john Conyers estimates is like 50% of voters, WE CAN NOT KNOW WHO WON IN ANT LOCAL, STATE OR FEDERAL RACE FOR WHATEVER OFFICE. as the votes are i n d e t e r m i n a t e !

activist letter "On November 2nd, at least thirty three million Americans (John Conyers estimates more than half of all who voted) lost their right to vote; their votes are indeterminate since they cannot be verified by hand count! This is an amazing and historically disastrous fact! Most of us were forced to vote on computers lacking paper evidence of who we voted for. Can any election be more than a sham under such a condition? Even worse, our votes could have been secretly and invisibly changed to favor George Bush or other Republican congressional candidates by the Republican owned business entities that secretly counted them. And all this after publicly promising their Republican associates they'd win! The bottom line: we really cannot know which Congressman, Senator or President was actually elected on November 2, for the vote-counting was able to be secretly and privately manipulated and then blocked from audit because there were no paper trails required. Thus, the entire national election of November 2 was fundamentally and uncorrectably flawed! "

AS THE PARTY IN FALSE POWER, THE PARTY WHO IS RESPONSIBLE,...
THE R-complex<google that term!> resisted and opposed laws to make sure audit was impossible
1)you vote
2)you COUNT the votes and..
3)in a grown-up world you audit the vote

Steal Our Vote? STEAL OUR FUTURE!

*****aside:The R-complex OP Cheney Speaks to the Reptile Brain
by Thom Hartmann

"I am not unaware of the effect of the ridicule cast on this instrument of defence by those who wished for engines of offence."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison referencing damage done to morale by jokes about the US Navy, May 21, 1813

It's Willie Horton all over again. The Bush family is subjecting Americans to psychological operations, only the level of sophistication and deception is an order of magnitude higher than it was in 1988. And it could turn the election, if not used effectively in rebuttal. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-13.htm*****




So should there have been so many reponses ?, to this obvious wheel-spinnin', focus diffusion, disturbing concentration of thought and effort to build real opposition, this is a calculated ploy to fracture UNITY OF PURPOSE

but the way i figure is good way to look at the cards they dealt us

maybe this dark cloud's silver-lining is; we would have eased up some slacked off if Kerry rightly took the oath, and remember both candidates have taken secret oaths which conflict with constitutional oaths, but now we have Bush in the hot seat, the seat of accountability, he could have slinked off to that phony movie set ranch in Texas, in fact when Dean or anyone said "send back to crawford texas" I cringed a little as that is a sign of a partner in corruption, fake or weak opposition, as we must wise up as the ultra-rich OWN the opposition ALLsow in this counTRY, hear that Hillary.

but now he is facing scandals, public opposition on multiple fronts AND MAYBE THIS IS THE KICK IN THE PANTS WE ALL NEEDED AS I SENSE WE ARE MORE UNITED DETERMINED ADAMANT AND FOCUSED MORE THAN EVER THAT WE WILL TURN THIS CONtry BACK inTo A Nation of Laws NOT Men...


CrossRoads

AmeriCan't & AmeriCoN OR? AmeriCare & AmeriCAN ?

[Trojan Man]

314. Let's not lie to ourselves, man.

"THIS IS NOT ABOUT BUSH OR KERRY"

Of course it is.

[SpaceBuddy008]

315. Leap Forward ! InTO Historic WaterShed MoMent

HOW DARE THEE? Democracy IS Deliberately Criminally, Hastily being frog-marched to the GallOWs. Adding insult to injury it's Horribly OutRageous that, Insidiously it is AN OFFICIAL State-Secret! The powers that be have coldly calculated that America and Americans will lie to themselves, tell themselves lies and Live with a Lie. For the most part they may be right, many are physically & emotionally energy-sapped, distracted, conTrolled, apathetic, demoralized and even Zombified. Many millions though, are ascending to that MounTain Top where the view is so grand, omnicient and the scent wafting from the grounds of our election system, smells FOUL with falseness, fraud and an unholy alliance of corporations, judges and elected? officials AND money twisting, unsportsmanlike a process requiring fairness, transparency, integrity into an abomination- a crime syndicate having undue control of the Public and Human right to Vote. The basic Way to petition Our Servant, elected governments, for a redress of grievances. This Liberty Lover has written a Paul Revere-esque chain letter, a powerful invocation to Clot the Bleeding Wound inflicted by a felonius assault on Democracy. We will NOT or canNot Live with a comfortable, despicable LIE....

no reductionist thinking partner
fallacy used- 'pot calling the kettle black'
fyi: www.fallacyfiles.org welcome to DU, man that site will learn you to make better arguments


Stinky & Sloppy Vote Riggin'

A psychological, intellectual war has been declared on reasonable thinking people. If this cyber-attack is not impeded, it can only mean a continuance down the irrational path-illogical course towards a theocratic dictatorship. An Inquisition will begin in earnest on progressives and creatives who can envision the Flowering of the Human race, they need to stand up, speak out and reach out to those with weak faith and errant motivations who fear the Flowering of the Human race. When the most thoughtful, caring and intelligent members of society are denigrated, stigmatized and persecuted by the currently, ignorant, misinformed, mean, deluded and apathetic human simulcrams or biological robots a dreary materialistic machine over man like future can happen instead of an Organic, reenchanted rennaissance which resonates symbiotically with the Natural world and worships our Mother- EARTH.

Please see the link below that explains what some Bush supporters who are into a cult called christian reconstructionism or dominionism have in mind for those of us who think independently and different than them including those of us who take seriously our inalienable right to exist on this planet at the behest of Natural Law and will not submit to Corporate legal fictions.

if the subhuman irRepublicansponsibility party took the poop, the media tried to wash it away by peeing on the pile, Kudos to MSNBC, but i heard the cashier at a home depot say her gramma is not watching CNN- the Controlled News Network. Cnn calling the basic request for fair, free, legitimate and transparent elections a conspiracy- is in itself A CONSPIRACY, the biggest conspiracy is not to believe there is any!

The working folk out here are preparing a very good case, imagine what trained specialists, high powered lawyers CAN DO! The Dems need to challenge this or they will never get the temporary respect, volunteers and money exemplified by this massive turnout. Believe me THERE WILL BE DANCIN" IN THE STREETS if Kerry UNconcedes and defends his country an It's principles once again. People are very receptive and prone to smiling when they hear that this is not over, My moms friend is still going to church but not taking communion till this is straightened out.

Of all the constitutional and procedural indiscretions this administration can be tried for , tamperin with our sacred right to vote, the very essence of democracy and self-determination is the final straw and will activate mainstream participation in the Who-decides-Who-gets-What Process that can only be healthy and for the good of the Whole wide World!

My slam poem to help the Next President and Vice President of the United States John Kerry And John Edwards- good luck!

Leap forward inTO Historic WaterShed MoMent,.. STYLE

WE Decide and WE DID!

SEE the exit polls said GET RID!

So, of course, THEY HAD to be Hid... Manipulatid

VOTE ? TAKE it BACK ?

NO CHANCE and NO! CHANGE

Shame, The Vote was HACKED

Hamper, Tamper With O-HiJack the Vote, Like Iraq now WE.. are... Jacked!

the Deck was Stacked, thats a FACT-

KERRY DEMOCRACY AMERICA ***WE GOT YOUR BACK

can't let this Fraudian Slip through the Crack and Give IN to this HomeLand attack

TO VOTE FOR our REPRESENTATION IS the Basis of this NATION

without this SLACK a FUTURE and FREEDOM.... We Will LACK

ENOUGH OF THIS QUAKETY-QUACK

ENOUGH! ENOUGH! Time for CuffS

ENOUGH! ENOUGH! Time for CuffS

ENOUGH! ENOUGH! ...Time FOR ..cuffs.

spacebuddy008 AT yr. service

Ahmanson is also one of the bagmen behind the extremist "Christian Reconstructionist" movement, which openly advocates a theocratic takeover of American democracy, placing the entire society under the "dominion" of "Christ the King." This "dominion" includes the death penalty for homosexuals, exclusion of citizenship for non-Christians, stoning of sinners and we kid you not slavery, "one of the most beneficent of Biblical laws."

rePort= http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/11/301068.html
*****

Peace and Truth Will Kiss

[Name removed]

316. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

317. bullshit unlike repugs that will embrace all the many lies given

i want new mexico investigated just as strongly as any other state. i suspect the new mexico governor covering up for whatever reason. i want his butt. democrat or repug i dont care. break the law, steal my vote, ass in jail

on edit: integrity.........a long lost character

[demgurl]

319. Jesus Saves...let us assume, for a moment, you are right

and there was no vote rigging. I think most reasonable people would at least agree that there were suspicious happenings where diebold is concerned, but let us even forget that for a moment. Let us start with a clean slate and assume every single thing done in elections was totally on the up and up. Everyone is honest and all the results are clean. For the sake of this argument we will assume all results were perfect and no one has a dishonest bone in their body.

Now let us turn to those pesky DU folks and their echo chamber. We want to show them that 'we' won fair and square and that we can win again. How dare they question us when we are the most honest people on the face of the earth? Why we are the biggest defenders of truth and honesty and patriotism. You know what I think we should do to shut them up? Set up a fool proof voting system with a HUGE paper trail so that they can never question the legitimacy of any of our republican presidents ever again. We shout that we are honest and that everything is done on the up and up and we will provide utter proof of each and every set of election results from here on out.

Diebold does all sorts of other machines including ATM's which leave paper trails, it will be nothing for us to insist that these machines have paper trails. If we believe that much in the system and how honest it is, then surely we can placate them and show them, with a 100% accuracy, that we want integrity to be a top priority.

Anyone who is honest, and truly believes in our system, should be insisting on safety measures. Forget the last election and those results, look forward. IF you believe you won honestly then you have nothing to loose. The only reason I could assume someone does not want to make the system as fool proof as possible is that they have something to hide or loose.

For the record, I have stated above that I believe there was fraud. I just can not fathom why anyone would not want an honest system in place. Perhaps, since you have researched this so much, you can tell me why someone would object to a paper trail where fraud can be detected?

[Stephanie]

334. perfect post

except for (sp) - sorry!

but you sum it up perfectly - if you want honest, transparent, verifiable elections, why not do everything possible to guarantee them? Why NOT do everything?

[donheld]

323. You don't have to buy it

Ignorance if free.

[Swamp Rat]

325. LOL! I love it!

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

324. Pushah ...ignore

[Stephanie]

331. Jesus, will this thread ever die?

Seriously, I want to know. If it does die, please don't resurrect it. Enough already!

[Jesus Saves]

333. I haven't resurrected it

I swear I haven't. I've only replied when it's on page one.

But maybe you've given me an idea......hmmmmmm........

[Stephanie]

335. The Thread of Eternal Lifel

Please let it die. It's so ... boring.

[Jesus Saves]

336. And yet

here you are breathing breath into it.

I know this thread means something important to you.

[Name removed]

337. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stephanie]

338. Yes it does

I am curious as to how long you can pull this off.

[Jesus Saves]

339. Pull

what off?

Honestly, I'm sick of seeing this thread too. I was surprised to see it back on the first page tonight. I figured it had headed to thread heaven.

[Stephanie]

340. the disingenuous accusations and

mock innocence when confronted

[Jesus Saves]

341. Not me

You got me pegged wrong sister.

[Stephanie]

342. You got me pegged wrong

I am not your sister. Move on.

[Jesus Saves]

343. You are

you just don't know it yet.

[Moderator]

344. Locking

It looks like this thread has run its course and is getting personal.