Question for Protestants re the Pope- just curiosity

[demokatgurrl]

I'm Jewish so I'm quite removed from the Catholic church but I have been wondering- is the Pope an important figure to Protestants? I mean, I thought the whole basis for Protestantism was a break away from the Roman church. So do you guys care about what the Pope says? And is his death a loss you feel personally, or just a world event?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. No, Protestants do not recognize the authority of the pope

nor do Eastern Orthodox Christians.

But with the Catholics being the largest Christian denomination, what the pope says and does is going to have an impact on everyone.

I do not feel a personal sense of loss, but I understand why many Catholics do.

[ewagner]

2. Special case....

I'm Protestant but my in-laws and wife are 100% Polish....there was (and is) a certain amount of Polish pride attached to this Pope and a link to departed relatives, so yes, this Pope means something to my family.....

Aside from that, John Paul II was a great spokesman for Peace.....so his words did mean something....

[gratuitous]

3. As a former Catholic, now an anabaptist

I'd say that I have a certain respect for the office of the Pope as the head of a major religious body. His death doesn't affect me personally one way or the other. I am, of course, always interested in increased ecumenism and comity between people of faith, but if the next Pope is a reactionary, then I'll work with who I can among the Catholics, and ignore their "official" pronouncements.

I do pretty much the same with any other body religious, including the folks in my own teeny tiny denomination.

[patrice]

4. I keep wondering about that too . . .

Why are Protestants so fixed on what a Pope says when, as I understand it, their whole Protestant thing is about individuals making their own independent moral decisions and accepting the consequences for those decisions, right or wrong, on their own souls.

Am I wrong about this?

[RevCheesehead]

7. Patrice, I believe that is a specifically American understanding...

of religion and faith.

The Christian religion is about the individual, but also about the community: the community of faith (denomination), the ecumenical community of believers, and the world.

The problem with American Christianity, IMO, is the elevation of the individual over and above the community. Religion is not about "me and Jesus" alone, nor is it about a personal relationship. Instead, it is a continuing relationship between God and all of humanity.

I have a bumpersticker on my car which says "Christianity is a relationship." I hope people understand what that means.

[patrice]

13. I agree that it is American to think the individual is paramount.

But I think it is an error in that assumption to think that the individual cannot come to understand his/her relatively unique relationship to a group.

If an individual is free enough, s/he can discover the truth, if s/he WANTS the truth badly enough; the truth is that the individual is not absolute and neither is the group. Buskminster Fuller had it right when he said whatever he said about "I seem to be a verb."

That's relativism and usually condemned as evil, having no right and wrong. This is not true; moral relativism says right and wrong inher in the details of the specific situation (individual:group - or context).

[RevCheesehead]

16. Point taken..

and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. No animosity intended.

I was trying to say that the notion of the individual as the supreme moral arbiter is more an American, rather than Christian concept. (that is, "I will decide for myself what is right or wrong.")

Christian morality, for most (if not all) exists within the context of the community. We have become more accustomed to "shopping around" if we hear something which we don't like. While some people see that as clarifying their faith, there are countless others who simply move their membership to another church (until they are offended at something else).

[RevCheesehead]

5. I don't presume to speak for all protestants.

But for me personally, the Pope is an important figure. He is a spiritual and moral leader for the Church. In my tradition (United Methodist), we came from the Anglican Church, who broke from the Catholics. I still consider myself catholic, but not roman.

I feel a deep rootedness in the ancient church, and its apostolic succession. However, if some churches did not break away from the Roman church, I would not be serving as a (woman) pastor today.

I do not agree with certain teachings of the Roman church. However, I also greatly respect other teachings. I will not presume to judge what John Paul II said or did - that is for God, and God alone.

As a Christian, I am called to bear one another's burdens. That means, to me, that I share in the suffering of my RC brothers and sisters, pray for them, and offer words of hope and love.

[liberalitch]

6. It's important to me beause I have many catholic friends....

and there are over 1 billion catholics world wide.
... so as a world event, it is pretty momentus. we won't see too many popes come and go.

[plcdude]

8. Personally as a former Lutheran Minister

and active Lutheran today, I perceive the Pope as a religious political figure. The office of the Papacy has great informal power that could very well influence literally millions of people around the world. I do not think that most protestants including the one's closest to the Roman Catholics (Anglican/Episcopal and Lutheran)feel this as a personal loss. I think the hope for many of the mainstream Protestants is the election of a new Pope that will live in the 21st century and respond thoughtfully to the major issues affecting the world in general and the health of RC Church. I felt that this Pope was locked into a post-WWII mentality and did not want to recognize the changes taking place in the world and particularly his own church. He was a good man and devout Christian.

[madrchsod]

9. no

i always felt he was still out of touch with the real world. he was seen by more people than anyone in history but i`m not sure he understood them.

[demokatgurrl]

10. Thank you for your answers- and what's an anabaptist? n/t

[HamdenRice]

11. The Pope is a very important figure to LIBERAL protestants because ...

he is an important spiritual figure in the Christian ecumenical movement. In other words, he is certainly as important as, for example, the Dalia Lama, even though I am neither a Catholic nor a Tibettan Bhudist. (I am a Baptist from the MLK wing of the Black Baptist Church.)

Moreover, even though I disagree with the conservative stance of JPII, I have to give him credit for being much more consistent than conservative protestants. For example, RW American Chistians claim to be pro-life, but seem to care only for fetuses and brain dead white women in Florida. They seem to like killing all sorts of prisoners (death penalty), foreigners, especially Arabs (war), and the poor.

The recently deceased Pope had a profoundly consistent pro life position that I can respect: He was not only opposed to abortion, but to capital punishment, war and euthanasia. Yet, as his own example showed, he also believed in death with the dignity of suffering, but without extreme medical measures that reduced the dignity of life.

Also, like several others in this thread, I have a significant other who is Catholic and I attend Catholic mass from time to time and enjoy it.

Finally, although Protestantism broke away from Catholicism, we can in no way disown the two thousand years of scrupulous Catholic scholarship and intellectual inquiry on which much of liberal, scholary Protestantism remains based. I studied Catholic doctrine in Divinity School (as electives in a history degree) and am profoundly impressed by their intellectual and spiritual tradition.

By contrast, many evangicals, especially in the South, make up Christianity as they go along. The NY Times recent profile of the pastor of a mega church in the southwest shows the depth of the typical RW protestant evangical: his doctrine is a combination of his "studies" from a mail order theology school and marketing polls.

<edited>

[ElaineinIN]

12. Some what....

Remember that the Episcopal church in the US, while protestant, is an off shoot of the Roman Catholic church (remember the whole Henry VIII can't get a divorce thing). The Anglicans also recognize apostolic succession, so there is an appreciation for his position... however, he commands no administrative or liturgical authority over the Anglicans.

I will admit that I cried when he died. I was raised RC, and left the church to become an Episcopalian, so I have my issues with the Pope, esp. with regard to women, homosexuality, contraception etc. But during Jubilee Christmas of 2000... the Pope spent it in a jail, ministering to prisioners.

Sometimes it is hard for us to remember that we are all members of the body incorporate of Christ... one one members suffers, we all do--even if we don't always agree with them!

[patrice]

14. So . . . ?

Do Episcopalian's have Mass?

[ElaineinIN]

15. We'll I'm not sure that they call it Mass

I always do, but its probably a throw back to my RC upbringing.

The Episcopalian mass aka service has many similaries to an RC mass. The Eucharist as I remember it is practically identical. Most importantly, we say the Nicean Creed, which the RCs do as well ("we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church"). When I first started going, the strangest thing was not the litergy, but that one priest was married and the other was a woman! Took a while to get used to...

[patrice]

17. Pardon my ignorance, but I want to be clear,

Women okay?

Do they have married and celibate priests?

Are they tolerant of same-sex marriage?

[ElaineinIN]

20. No problem!

In the US, Episcopal Church in the USA (ECUSA)

Women are okay--in fact, my bishop is a woman.

Priests are allowed to marry. I believe that you can take celibacy vows if you want, and they aren't really keen on pre-marital sex. However, sex within marriage need not be for procreation, as it has a "relationship" bond, at least that's they way its been explained to me. As a result, I think that they are ok with contraception within marriage as well-- any other Episcopalians here on the board who can help me on that point?

On the same sex marriage thing-- wow, is that an issue right now. The Diocese of NH recently elected, and the denomination approved, an openly gay active bishop. They were also in the process of coming up with a litergy to bless non marital relationships, which would have included same sex relationships, although it didn't go as far as "marriage." Some of the more conservative diocese objected and there is a basically a move for some parishes to split off. My parish lost a few people, but there are more than a couple new folks, many younger, many same sex couples. The Anglican Church of Canada and I think Scotland have taken similar steps.

HOWEVER, ECUSA is part of the world wide Anglican communion, which includes the denominations in other parts of the world, united under the archbishop of Canterbury. The folks from Africa, South America, and Asia, esp., aren't really too happy with ECUSAs stance on homosexual issues. Some of those bishops have been in contact with the convservative parishes in the US with the thought of allowing the parishes to be in the Anglican communinion but not under ECUSA.
However, the communion realy doesn't want to kick ECUSA out because we hae the $$$. Recently, the communion "invited" us to say we are sorry and to "withdraw" form the communions governing body and not vote. So they will take the $$ but then kick us around. I think ECUSA said they were sorry for all the commotion, but not for ordaining Bishop Robinson. In the meanwhile, there has been a morotorium placed on the same sex blessing ceremony and the ordination of any further actively gay clergy, pending discussions.

Phew... hope that helps!

[powergirl]

18. * pretends to care what the Pope says- but evangelicals are anti Catholic

As a Catholic I am amazed that Bush, as an evangelical Christian, purports to support the Pope - which he does not obviously when it comes to the death penalty, war, human suffering, civil rights, etc. Among my Protestang friends, they tend to take interest in the Pope since he is the leader of the largest Christian religion. But they do not believe him to be infallible.

Also, the far right evangelicals traditionally have not liked Catholics and basically call us idol worshipers, etc. I guess it is cynical of me to presume that Bush and the evangelicals glom onto Catholics (and the kooky right wing faction of the Catholics) to perpetuate their agenda.

[Maru Kitteh]

19. A world event - no more or less important or emotional

I do believe he tried his best to be a good man, and I believe he did a tremendous amount of good, but the Roman church has nothing to do with my faith.