Baboon behavior provides hope for human behavior.

[gordianot]

Maybe this will even work for certain elements in our species.

See link: http://ranprieur.com/crash/baboons.html

Sometimes it takes the great Dustbuster of fate to clear the room of bullies and bad habits. Freak cyclones helped destroy Kublai Khan's brutal Mongolian empire, for example, while the Black Death of the 14th century capsized the medieval theocracy and gave the Renaissance a chance to shine.

Among a troop of savanna baboons in Kenya, a terrible outbreak of tuberculosis 20 years ago selectively killed off the biggest, nastiest and most despotic males, setting the stage for a social and behavioral transformation unlike any seen in this notoriously truculent primate.

In a study appearing today in the journal PloS Biology (online at www.plosbiology.org), researchers describe the drastic temperamental and tonal shift that occurred in a troop of 62 baboons when its most belligerent members vanished from the scene. The victims were all dominant adult males that had been strong and snarly enough to fight with a neighboring baboon troop over the spoils at a tourist lodge garbage dump, and were exposed there to meat tainted with bovine tuberculosis, which soon killed them. Left behind in the troop, designated the Forest Troop, were the 50 percent of males that had been too subordinate to try dump brawling, as well as all the females and their young. With that change in demographics came a cultural swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy, and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats, swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit.

Remarkably, the Forest Troop has maintained its genial style over two decades, even though the male survivors of the epidemic have since died or disappeared and been replaced by males from the outside. (As is the case for most primates, baboon females spend their lives in their natal home, while the males leave at puberty to seek their fortunes elsewhere.) The persistence of communal comity suggests that the resident baboons must somehow be instructing the immigrants in the unusual customs of the tribe.

[elehhhhna]

1. Sounds like the dominant females finally got their chance.

[greyl]

2. Garbage. Human's have survived for 3 million years

There's nothing wrong with humans.

Our particular culture doesn't work, but our culture does not define humanity.

[greyl]

23. regret and more info for clarification...

I think it's possible to find evidence in the human race that the author found so surprising to find in other primates. It only requires realizing that our culture isn't the only human culture on the planet, and the possibility that our culture may not be the most pragmatic or evolutionarily stable.


I wish I would have explained that I was pissed that the author of the headline was 'unwittingly' repeating mother culture's myth that our culture defines humanity.

The unknowingly blind acceptance of one of our culture's most insidious myths ie: "We define humanity" is what I was really replying to.

edit: I only skimmmed the article. I was too distracted by the fucked up headline which I thought needed tending to. /edit

[scarletlib]

3. Well, it looks like the baboons can learn a lesson and then

pass it on to later generations. Humans? I don't know. Seems like we can't get over fighting and killing one another. I wish we would change.

I think if females/feminine values were in charge the world would be a better place.

[greyl]

24. Humans? Seems like we can't get over fighting and killing...

"Humans? Seems like we can't get over fighting and killing..."

When you said that, were you speaking of Inuits, Aymara, or the Senoi?

No, I think you were speaking of the human cultures that believe there is only one right way to live. (and in those cultures, yes, men are overwhelmingly in charge.)

But... We Are Not Humanity.

http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/QandA/qanda.cfm

http://www.nativeplanet.org/index.shtml

[kliljedahl]

4. Are baboons closely related to chimps?

Just wondering.


http://www.kliljedahl.net

[ashmanonar]

5. no, i don't believe so.

i'm no primatologist, but i'm fairly sure that baboons are more closely related to monkeys than chimps. we're closer to chimps, in fact.

[gordianot]

7. We are most closely related to apes which does not include baboons.

Baboon behavior as well as Chimpanzee, and Human behavior is relatively aggressive. Baboons seem to be able to develop culture, recent similar observations have been made for Chimpanzees. Baboons are so agressive that in a troop have been known to threaten Lions and other predators.

The predatory aspect of Baboons reminds me top down economics. Eventually they choked to death by this practice. I suspect some humans may go the same way way of the dominant Baboons.

[blindpig]

9. the common thread is ecological

Us more aggressive types are savannah dwellers. Perhaps more exposure to predators and more in your face intraspecific competition. Consider the Bonobo, a forest dweller and more pacific.

[Charon]

18. Forest Dwellers

The males of Chimpanzee (not Bonobo)troops are aggressive and domineering. A few years ago, they were even photographed hunting down and killing monkeys. These are forest dwellers.

[ladjf]

6. All animal behavior offers hope and guidance for humans.

[HamdenRice]

8. S. African Social scientist: Baboon behavior explains White Males

This thread reminds me of a recent article from South Africa and the controversy it caused. It was much less optimistic about what baboon behavior tells us about what happens when alpha males are "dethroned".

A prominent South African academic, Professor Makgoba (Vice Chancellor, University of KwaZulu-Natal), argued that white male behavior in South Africa can be explained by close analysis of baboon behavior. He said that when the lead male baboon is dethroned, he skulks off and then begins to try to undermine the entire community. He likened some of the extremist Afrikaner white supremacists who are working to bring back apartheid, to dethroned alpha baboons.

This article was not well received by many South Africans.

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=200303&area=/insight/insight__comment_and_analysis/

Wrath of dethroned white males

Malegapuru Makgoba: COMMENT

A critical factor of human development and leadership is “our primate heritage” as defined in the book Leading Minds: An Anatomy of Leadership, by Howard Gardner, Harvard University’s distinguished psychologist and professor of education.

<snip>

These heritage features are most pronounced in males who compete for control of the social cluster, for protection of offspring and possession of the most desirable females.

Baboons or bonobos, for example, are often headed by a dominant male with pretenders to the throne hanging around. The dominant male ensures that progeny are not only his through reproduction, but also that all members of the colony imitate him. He becomes the “gold standard”. Ultimately the dominant male is dethroned by a younger and fitter male, only to repeat another variation cycle of hierarchy, dominance and imitation.

The dethroned male becomes depressed, quarrelsome and a spoiler of the new order until he gets ostracised from the colony to lead a frustrated, lonely and unhappy life. This is our “primate heritage”.

<snip>

A group of dethroned white males called “Die Boeremag” <"the Afrikaner power"> are recently alleged to have been plotting a coup and even entertaining the exciting thought of assembling all Africans on the N1 and then chasing or marching them to Zimbabwe. In their naïve logic, Zimbabwe belongs to Africans and South Africa belongs to whites.

<end of quote>

[gordianot]

10. Thanks very interesting. I have book marked it.

It could also explain some of Bill Clinton's problems and what we are experiencing today.

[HamdenRice]

11. A South African response -- in deep South African patios

This is an endorsement (???) of the article presumably written by a liberal Afrikaner in deep, deep SAn patois on a South African discussion board. It is very expressive and kind of funny. It reminds me of how people from Johannesburg talk -- a lot of slang, and a lot of different languages mixed together, and a lot of joking insults. I have put some translations in brackets:
http://www.rsa-overseas.com/mboard_dir/480.shtml

Heksie Bexie <Bessie the little witch>

The poor old sod, over-50 and over the hill like so many "Destyds was witbase gewees", spat the dummy big time when he got the arse from the M&G <Mail & Guardian where the article appeared>; hasn't been heard from since ... .

Transformation, girls and boys, is real. You whiteys did no less when you held the reins: "baantjies vir boeties", <jobs for friends, the policy of Afikaners when they were in power> and what a klomp incompetent sods that landed us with. Let's face it, things were so bad that 70-percent of whites decided it was better to hand the country over to the ANC than continue on with the mielie crunchers <corn eaters -- ie, rural Afrikaners> in charge.

JaNee, mense, julle rooinekke <yess people, you rednecks> (Sal ek se: souties?) <shall I say: Southies, ie South Africans> was altyd tussen die rotse en die doringbosse gewees <were always between a rock and a hard place ???>. The only blerrie choice for you was to emigrate, ne?

#Transformation is real, and its happening NOW.
Watch this space!#

[gordianot]

16. While reading this I was watching World War I in color.

On the History Channel. Humans are much more vicious than Baboons. It took a few minutes for the irony to set in.

Excellent discussion.

[Karenina]

12. So this may mean...

:freak: :think: hmmmm... :crazy: :evilgrin:

[gordianot]

13. Avoid "male dump brawling" .

[Karenina]

14. If you're a sensitive guy...

[gordianot]

15. ..................Then stay at home groom the females, and kids.

It creates a "New World Order", and as a result you live longer. Too bad Reagan never thought of this.

[sharonking21]

17. Oh, this is good....

I used to work with baboons. I haven't been keeping up on the literature recently. But if Sapolsky and Smuts are taking it seriously enough to discuss it, it is of considerable scientific interest--at least to anyone in primatology. And yes, baboons are monkeys, not apes. But they are kind of the "top monkeys" of the non-apes and you can learn a great deal about human society by observing them. They have cultures, social structures, emotions, talents, affinity groups, communications, intelligence, learning . . and on and on.

Baboons get a bad press due to those long muzzles and big teeth. Yes, you might consider them more aggressive than humans, but just strip away some of our inhibitions and you have something very much like baboons.

We are a conceited lot, we humans. My three years observing baboons convinced me that the huge difference we ascribe to human and non-human primates is a great overstatement of the facts. There are big differences, but not anywhere nearly to the extent you think before you spend day after day watching them.

I would also agree that with Sapolsky that their culture may tend to be fragile (and probably does not pose a complete counterweight to genetic tendencies), but they are nonetheless, amazing, amazing creatures, worthy of great respect.

[gordianot]

19. I also read there was some fear that this troop was being threatened.

Apparently they are being watched closely.

I have a friend who has a female Baboon which lives as member of the family (not a pet). They have 5 adopted children counting the baboon and a large menagerie of exotic animals. She takes her to a local university for testing "non verbal intelligence". From what I understand on many of the standardized tasks she functions like a 3-4 year old child.

[sharonking21]

20. Agree

as to the level of intelligence.

How does that work out, her keeping a baboon as a member of the family? What kind of baboon is it? I know that you cannot house train them--but that isn't a function of intelligence but instead of physiology. What was the situation that led to her getting the baboon? In general I wouldn't approve of doing this--primatologists have an old saying "One monkey is NO monkey." It merely means that they are such social animals that they don't do well without other monkeys around. Also, can be dangerous, if they suddenly react as a baboon rather than as a human. But I don't exactly condemn it--I know how much you can come to love them as individuals. The opportunity would tempt me.

[gordianot]

21. These people have a different life style

The last time I saw the Baboon was about 5 years old, that was 4 years ago. To me the Baboon looked large don't know what kind. I have run into their oldest son at Boy Scout meetings who says they still have the Baboon living in the home. Considering the wolves, skunks, Mountain Lions, and various large snakes they keep the Baboon seems almost logical. I think there is also a monkey but does not quite have the status of the Baboon. The Baboon is not the only potentially dangerous animal in this house.

[MisterP]

22. speaking of baboons, who wrote this guy's history book?