Hi. My name is Modem Butterfly. I'm a victim of the Bush economy

[Modem Butterfly]

Four years ago, I was Director of Recruiting at a medium-sized Tech firm. I made $90,000. My partner was a PeopleSoft Consultant. He made $150,000. Today, I'm a Senior Human Resources Generalist for a medium sized retailer. I make $45,000. When I started here almost three years ago, I was making $30,000 and replaced two people. Today I work 50-60+ hours per week. My boss has been lobbying hard to get an extra person in our department. Today she told me that's not very likely. She also told me she's looking for a new job and suggested I do the same. Our company is making money hand over fist, but it seems they've gotten used to "running leaner" during the bad times and have no plans to replace very many folks, so everyone is similarly pressed for time.

That's a fine fucking howdy-do on a Monday morning.

Edited to add: My partner makes half of what he once made. Fortunately, he doesn't travel anymore (he used to be gone four or five days out of the week), but he lost his elite status with the airlines and hotels. I think it's a pretty good trade-off, but I know he misses the money and the variety of his work.

My partner and I made an obscene amount of money during the boom, and we managed to put a great deal away (I grew up poor, and have become a bit of a miser as an adult). We are still in much, much better shape than most of our friends. But I would sacrifice some of our current income to have a job with more human hours, say 45-50 per week. These long days are killing me, guys.

[fudge stripe cookays]

1. Ugh.

Sorry MB. That really sucks.

I've been remarkably lucky, but I'm expecting it to end any day now. I don't know anything, I just have a feeling that there is a spot in the Bush economy downsized for me, it just hasn't happened yet.

I feel for you. Keep your chin up.
FSC

[Modem Butterfly]

8. I don't have to worry about that right now

But I've been there. My tech firm went from 3,000 employees to 300 in the space of 9 months. I'd hired most of those folks. It was no fun writing and executing their separation agreements.

[Maestro]

2. Sorry to hear that

I too have been a victim although I haven't experienced anything as bad as you. My health care costs went up $500.00 a month. Can you believe that? All of a sudden my employer says we can't pay for the H "freakin'" MO so now I am paying for it for my whole family. I have not had a raise in 4 years and because of the rise in the cost of living I am making less than I did last year for sure and probably less than 2 years ago as well.

Oh but that economy is turning around. Whatever dipshit *. Just leave DC to rest of the crooks. I'm sick of politicians in general.

[seabeyond]

17. i am so pissed too, lol lol

our went up 700 a month. so we raised deductible and co pay, now up only 400. isnt that a bitch. and cant find dental. my husband is ready to let go of insurance for employees. and he hasnt had a raise in 8 years. i just reduce spending all over the place

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. I hear ya.

I found out that despite doing a professional job that rakes in over $150k/year for my employer (btw, I wasn't hired to produce revenue, I just do it), I now make little more than a janitor over at Georgetown University. In a related story, I'm job hunting too.

[Must_B_Free]

4. You brought the detail about your partner's income, but left it hanging

you should have followed through with the relevance of that detail by demonstrating that he makes far less now than he did then.

[Modem Butterfly]

11. Good point

He makes half of what he made then, but he doesn't travel anymore (he used to be gone four or five days out of the week). I think this is a good trade-off, but he misses the travel and the elite status with the airlines and hotels.

[Redstone]

5. Did your partner get clobbered, too?

I wonder if your story could, at some level, have something to do with the apparent "apathy" of Americans to things like stolen elections.

Could it be that many Americans who work long hours like you do, in stressful jobs like you have, are just simply too damn tired to care?

I wouldn't put that kind of strategy beyond somebody like Rove.

Redstone

[Modem Butterfly]

16. Tired and scared

It's hard to think about rocking the boat when you're just trying to keep your head above water. Right now employers hold all the cards, and the expectations of long hours with little or no vacation have become the norm. I don't think Americans can keep this up for too much longer.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. The only people who count in Bush's America are artificial ones

That is something that will have to change.

There is no point in maintaining a system that reserves all benefits to the upper echelons of society and treats the rest of us as cannon fodder for ill-advised wars. The Bourbons found that out the hard way; the Romanovs found that out the hard way; and America's corporate tyrants will find out soon enough.

[Coyote_Bandit]

7. I'll Trade Places With You

BA, MA, MBA, JD. Laid-off along with about 30% of my co-workers nearly two and a half years ago. Single with no means of support aside from my personal savings. And still jobless.

[Palacsinta]

9. I'm sorry........

and I'm also sorry to say, welcome to my world. My son-in-law's income has been cut in about half, too. His entire sales department (which he managed) was outsourced. His new job salary sucks, comparatively. Two kids and a mentally ill wife (our daughter), who cannot work but does not receive Disability (turned down 3 times). We are subsidizing her which we can barely manage.................no more saving for our retirement which is right around the corner, either. They still have health insurance, though.....but for how long? and what if the co-pays keep going up, up up? I'm venting and I meant to give you support.............

Good luck, Butterfly. Once again........I'm sorry.

[demnan]

10. Coming to a home near me

I will lose my job in September. My contract is up and they are retiring my beloved application which currently serves over 2,000 people. I built the entire system myself, and it's a wonderful useful application but no one here has the brains to market me to the FAA folks so I can build more systems for them. I make $87K now - that's mostly due to the fact that my boss at that time got me a big raise back when web developers could and did demand practically anything they wanted, especially with database experience and talent, which I have. But that boss is gone and replaced with a mental midget who knows nothing about what I do, and doesn't give a shit, and doesn't know the difference between designing a database and taking a dump.

So you are frustrated because you have too much to do, and I am frustrated because I am underutilized and heading for the crapper. Not all of this is Bush's fault, however he has caused so much tormoil over at the FAA they aren't even focused on getting work done anymore.

Expect planes to fall from the sky (not because of me or anything) but give an idiot the reigns and you see what happens.

[meegbear]

12. Hugs babe ... in the same boat

Was making $71.5K until Nov 2002. I've been living paycheck to paycheck since.

I'm currently making $38.5K at my job. I got reviewed last week and was given four stars for my work and accomplishments. "But, we don't have the money right now, so you can't have a raise. Keep up the good work." :wtf:

[seabeyond]

13. appreciate this in many different directions

lets also see as an owner, finally making some money. what some may terms hands over fist. our accountant sees what is coming in and going out. she immediately wanted a raise

surely, lol

i am just think modem with what you shared. just a piece. i totally appreciate your situation, and agree, and see somuch of this

but..............with us, the business owner. a mere year ago we picked up, but that year prior, every second of every day, i calculated in my head what it would take to close up shop, pay off debt, fire employees and find employment. things were so tight

i know last summer, as money started coming in and bank account got a little healthy, i am not confident. we put aside a amount that will get us out of the whole if this economy isnt steady. we havent had even a year of good time. and the way bush is running economy, has to have business people scared. i know i am

yet...........lol lol

i see how corporate is creating this for us

will be interesting to see how this pans out

lets remember the new info, that i think is significant. bush took 14b? and invested in market. that ploy and manipulation of market, how much did it fuck it up in illusion. curious to see what is up

[brainshrub]

14. And that, boys & girls, is why white-collar types need Unions.

On Edit: Got rid of the word "to" at the end of the sentence.

[ArkDem]

20. You didn't finish your sentence.

[orpupilofnature57]

15. Shrub's America! And the ? % that voted this idiot in, will be ate too.

[Virginian]

18. Me too

I am an unemployed Oracle developer. Two years ago, my company laid me off because they lost a contract with the Coast Guard (homeland security) to an H-1b dependent company, a company that imported at least 75% of its workers. While I suppose keeping the jobs in the US is better than offshoring, I don't feel very secure handing my job, (which should have required a security clearance) over to a person who was imported to drive down salaries.

Because I don't have a current security clearance, I have not found another job. I am hoping I can at least get an interview with a company advertising a job at $45K. It is difficult to get a door to open because I am competing, not just with other programmers, but also with employment companies that import workers.

It is a thriving business to import workers. The company can skim as much as half of what the worker earns. These companies have aggressive marketing departments. They also have people lobbying congress to raise the H-1b quotas so they can bring in more people and make more money. You can bet the owners of these companies are heavy contributers to the Republican party and its candidates. The republicans have been very, very good to these companies by continuing to increase the quotas even though unemployment of Americans in the tech fields has been high.

[yourout]

19. 5 years ago I had 6 employees now I have myself...

and a debt of over $350K. We went about a year before we laid people off going farther in debt hoping for things to turn around. Our employees were like family but we still should have bit the bullet sooner and laid them off. Last year I busted my ass and still only took home 35K because of the debt.

[seabeyond]

22. husband worked in computer business for a decade

they had employees all over the place, paying high wage. we watched his partner hollow out company, husband bought it and we started trimming, cuttin, downsizing, everywhere. we were concerned we hadnt done it soon enough either. almost didt make it. really hard 2002-2004. gosh, i am seeing more empty buildings too. would be interesting to know the reality of our economy, instead of all the lies from this administration. i know, because we lowered wage, and so many are, is just less money in the economy to cycle.

[Not_Giving_Up]

21. I feel your pain

I started suffering under dubya when he was governor of my home state. A few years ago, I was working medical records at a hospital. I wasn't making tons of money, but it was a full time job, and the benefits were decent. That job went away, and I drew unemployment for six months. I filed for extended benefits and was told that I could only get a month's worth.

I started taking whatever the temp agencies could throw at me. At that time, even agencies that had always been able to find me work were dead, they had nothing to send me to.

I got a temp position that was supposed to last three to four months, fairly decent money, but no benefits. I ended up being at the same company for a year and half as a "contractor" until one day they decided that I was "no longer a cohesive member of the team". My team members were shocked at this.

I now work for a small business that pays my health insurance, but I'd have to pay to cover the rest of my family, which at the menial wage I am making, is impossible. This employer is going down the tubes rapidly, so I'm looking for another job. My kids are on Medicaid to take care of their medical needs, and the bills are barely getting paid.

Funny, during the Clinton years I did just fine.

[Virginian]

75. CPAs are also feeling the crunch

CPA firms are outsourcing more and more of their tax work to India. Just think, if you pay a CPA firm to do your taxes, they may be sending your personal information, including Social Security Number to a foreign country where there aren't any laws to protect you from identity theft. If you need to use a CPA, get an individual who does his own work, or a small company that does the work in-house, don't go to a large firm.

[wicket]

23. I lost my job last month (company went under)

I'm now temping (companies just don't want to hire right now it seems) and having to pay for my own health insurance through COBRA so I'm paying out the nose. I'm making less than I was and now have the added cost of health insurance. I don't know what I am going to do :(

Good luck with everything MB :hug:

[mrdmk]

24. Close to two years ago I was fired because one owner out of

four thought he could do better. That did not work out very well for them. Heavy employee turnover from that point on and loss of business.

About a year ago found new employment which was to be a stepping stone to a better job, either with the current employer or a new employer. That is what I thought. Since I started I received one raise then had that wipe out by a pay cut and then two more pay cuts (note: I found out about ladder cuts on my paycheck, nobody had the hair to tell me) not to mention working 10 to 14 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week.

I am looking for a new job with the help of a state agency. It still is not easy nor having the prospect of finding a good to great job is in the future. To me, this economy is a joke so is trying to find a new job.

[elehhhhna]

25. I hear you. I ran a Staffing Co. in Chgo, then a start-up in Houston,

Temp/contract & perm. -- now home with the kids.

Employment will not pick up until the "war" is over. Last time a Bush ended an Irag War, our business DOUBLED within 3 months. There is demand out there--but it won't be unleashed until things are stable.

Thanks, GW.

[newportdadde]

26. Your not alone Modem Butterfly.

Lots of us our here with raising costs and stalled wages, being asked to do more and more. My companies IT department is a shredded mess of what it once was..half to India and fired, some sent off to another 3rd party. Then the business gets made when they find out they can't get resources to get projects done. Well NO SHIT thats what you get when you destory your IT department.. damn its not that easy of a job!

If I walk down the hall I see vacant offices everywhere, and those that are filled half are from India its like another world compared to 5 years ago.

Compared to my coworkers I'm underpaid... but with a wife staying at home with our young son etc I can't play any aggressive cards.. and when I did try a bit of a more aggressive stance a few months ago I actually got laughed at.. companies hold all the cards right now, the ball is totally in their court and its only going to get worse for ALL white collar jobs.

I can't compete with India salaries as long as all of my costs are American.

I'm surprised your Parnter had that much of a cut as a Peoplesoft Programmer.. if he was COBOL like I am I could see that but seems like ever job is I see out there is Peoplesoft right now.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. He's a functional guy, not a coder

He does everything but coding. He's been on PS since version 3, Financials, HR, Treasury, Manufacturing, and Supply (I'm pretty proud of him, can't you tell?)

Very familiar with H1-Bs. Nothing against them personally, most of them are codeheads so my partner interfaced with them but didn't have to compete with many for the functional gigs.

[thinkingwoman]

28. I'd love to make $45,000

My hubby and I weren't making that TOGETHER at the family business we were running up until it went out of business a month ago.

Now he alone makes less than that and I am making nothing!

[Modem Butterfly]

29. It's not a small amount of money

But I saw my income cut by 2/3rds in one fell swoop. It was increased to 45K because I've been working my ass off. I'm over being bitter about it in large part because I have a job and I'm still making enough to live on. But it's rough.

[thinkingwoman]

30. I've worked my ass off

my entire life and I've never made money like that.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to show that some of us make do with a lot less for our entire lives.

My grandparents never made money like that. My parents never made money like that. I don't make money like that.

BTW, yes, I'm college educated.

[Modem Butterfly]

33. I'm sure you have

But the fact remains that losing 2/3rds of your income is a real slap in the face. The fact remains that seeing your sector of the economy and your very job description dry up and blow away is really difficult. The fact remains that many people who benefitted from the peace and prosperity of the Clinton era have seen it all go down the drain under Bush.

Of course people make do with less money than I make. Most of the rest of the world lives at subsitance-level, and a good portion live below that. But we shouldn't let the Bushies use that fact as an excuse for their utter mismanagement of America's economy.

[Jo March]

45. Modem Butterfly, I see your point

You are trying to make the point that many, many people have been trying to make: Working for 1/4, 1/3, 2/3s of what you were working for isn't a "great booming" economic situation!

The * admin tries to make us all think that things are fine but they are NOT. If a person makes $n and loses her job and finds another one making $n - 50% , that is crappy!

I do not resent you for making what you did. That would be silly. I see the point that you are trying to make. Kerry made the same points before the election.

Many of us are sqeaking by because gas, health care, heating costs and food have all gone up and we are making way less than we used to!

It's madness!

[amazona]

38. yeah in my experience

The jobs that demand the most work often pay the least.

I don't think there is any correlation between working hard and getting high pay or everyone who wanted to be rich would be.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[amazona]

37. that's what I was thinking

If I earned that much money I would think I'd died and gone to heaven.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. If I didn't get work from Japan, I'd be in big trouble

My U.S. sources of translation work have pretty much dried up.

I'm finding it really hard to save, because every time I get some money accumulated, the car breaks down or I need emergency dental work or some dumb thing, and that month's savings are gone!

[knitter4democracy]

32. I really think they're trying to kill us all off.

I started saying that as a joke, but it sure doesn't seem like a joke anymore. The economy is in a shambles, and we're in a depression whether they want to actually admit that or not. I'm really scared about opening up my shop this fall, but I figure that if I don't, I'll always regret it. Things are only going to get worse, so it's not like waiting will make better odds.

I'm so sorry you're going through such a horrible time. I hope things get better.

[Modem Butterfly]

34. I think it's a method of enslavement

When employers hold the cards, workers suffer. They expect us to do more for less money, and with fewer options, what choice do we have but to try to make it? American productivity is through the roof, even with a relatively high unemployment rate. And of course, high unemployment makes the military look more attractive to young people.

[knitter4democracy]

36. Like I said, kill us all off.

Everything somehow comes back to that for me. We are all losing our health insurance (too expensive), so we're getting worse care (killing us off). We are losing our jobs, so the military with its guaranteed job and health care (not the greatest but better than nothing) looks better all the time (killing us off). We are all getting so isolated in our everyday lives that we honestly don't know what's going on with our own neighbors half the time (or more), and then we're suprised when people turn to desperate measures to deal with their problems (killing us off).

What hurts the most is that no one seems to really want to talk about class and money outside of DU. We're all suffering in isolated pockets and convinced that it's just us and our problems rather than getting together, talking it out, and seeing the connections. That's what pisses me off the most about that so-called "ownership society" crap--what do any of us really own free and clear? How can we own up to all the consequences of our behavior when we are faced with crappy choices?

[Serial Mom]

39. See my sig line ...

BTW, my =husband finally got a full time job after being out of work since Nov 2003 - 18 months! He went thru paperwork last night and had a stack that was 10 inches high of jobs he applied for and some responses (and he only kept about 1/2 of what he sent). He had no choice back last August except to take a job as a contractor - no benefits at all, no holiday pay, no vacation, no personal time, no health ins, no 401 and that was for 2/3 less than he was making.

He now is making 1/2 as much as he was 2001. We get by, but you know, we were able to survive, no vacations, no extra spending, but worse of all was that our savings, 401's went to shit also due to dubya. So any plans of us retiring in next 5-7 years are gone. We will have to work to make all this up for at least 12 more years!

[Cadence]

35. Me too.

I used to make $80K with full benefits as an engineer for a tech company. I got laid off due to overseas outsourcing almost two years ago. Haven't been able to find anything in my field... now savings has run out and I'm looking at filing for bankruptcy. I can't even seem to find any low paying jobs to fill in so I can at least try to keep my house.

During the Clinton years I was turning down job offers trying to lure me away from the company I worked for and I was looking at building a new house. I took vacations, had savings and retirement.

Now I worry about how to buy food.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

40. I made over $150K annually in the '90s in various sales jobs

most salepeople I know in high tech aren't making their quotas.

I know how you feel, Modem Butterfly. I was laid off the first time in '02, and again in '03, and my company is struggling now. There isn't a lot of venture capital to go around if you're an entrepreneur, so small and medium-sized companies have been seriously impacted.

I agree with you about the impact of seeing jobs and prospects disappear. We live in scary times indeed.

[Modem Butterfly]

47. Yikes

Small and medium-sized companies are often the earlie adopters of technology. That fuels innovation, which in turn fuels the economy. It's really a vicious cycle.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

54. They're often the developers of technology too.

they either get acquired by the Big Fish in their space, or, what is typical over the last couple of years, is they go out of business.

[The_Casual_Observer]

41. In the scheme of things I would say that you and your

partner were very well paid before. You were lucky to make that kind of money, even for a short time. The money you are making now is much more realistic in line with what people actually make out there.

[Modem Butterfly]

42. What other people make has nothing to do with it

Both of our industries dried up considerably. My income declined by 2/3rds, his by half, and for what? The Boy Prince is running our economy straight into the ground and causing massive damage for decades to come. The fact that we're still making money is really beside the point.

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. Oh I see, you two have very special hr & "functional" talents that ought

to command 2-3 times the going rate for these services. I don't like the boy prince any better than you do, however, I used to shake my head and wonder why they were paying those inflated salaries, and I knew that they were unsustainable and would lead to outsourcing/off shoring.

[Modem Butterfly]

46. Yes we do (or, he does, I used to)

I was a high-tech headhunter, so I had to find people with specialized technical skillsets at a time when those people were literally in a position to all but name their salaries. When the dot coms went bust, they took down much of the tech industry with them, so there wasn't much need for my niche skills, and that downturn took down the rest of the economy, so the baseline skills of finding people were largely unneeded. The outsourcing and off-shoring has been a trend since the mid-80's, but there were many technical jobs that weren't off-shoreable and much of the outsourcing was being done by Americans. There still are those jobs, but there are fewer of them now, just as there are fewer jobs overall. The idea that high salaries led to off-shoring and outsourcing and thus killed the economy is the kind of "blame it on the victims" lie told by the corporations.


My partner is a functional PeopleSoft expert, and when the work largely dried up, he could have still maintained his previous salary if he would have been willing to relocate for each gig (clients became really reluctant to pay travel costs when the economy choked). Not an option for us.

[MXMLLN]

59. So ... it was the dot com bust ?

"When the dot coms went bust, they took down much of the tech industry with them, so there wasn't much need for my niche skills, and that downturn took down the rest of the economy, so the baseline skills of finding people were largely unneeded."

[Modem Butterfly]

65. Partly, yes

The bust was the catalyst for the economic downturn, which was deepened and extended and made more miserable by Bush's disastrous economic policies.

[LincolnMcGrath]

60. Do you get uppity over CEO pay as well?

[The_Casual_Observer]

63. Yes, CEO's are overpaid by at least 100 times what they are worth

What is it that they do/ or know that is so valuable?

[LincolnMcGrath]

68. 100 times seems low to me.

Our company cut 19000 jobs since 2000. They want 6000 more this year.

Wouldn't you know it? Our CEO got his salary nearly tripled last year.

[Jo March]

44. My name is Arnheim and I am also a victim

I have no health insurance and haven't since 9/17/2004. Add me, Mr. Arnheim and our 2 kids to the rolls of the uninsured.

I make less now in my contract position but can't find any other work right now. Seems as though the trickle down from those tax cuts never happened.

I'm looking though and grateful for the job.

[leftofthedial]

48. I'm sorry for your struggles. I can relate. Five years ago

I was VP of Marketing for a global software company. I made $120K plus bonuses and equity. I was VERY good at my job.

Now, I make less than half of that (I am President of a music and arts nonprofit), I have been paid 1 to 3 weeks late five of the past six months because donations and grants have plummetted and we are barely surviving at this point.

I did consulting briefly after the third in a series of failed technology startups went under three years ago. That has completely dried up now. I also am self-employed in two part-time ventures, making about $12K a year. One of them has gone from generating about $30K per year to generating only about $2K per year, all due to the declining economy. I hope the other of these will grow to become self-sustaining full time, but the economy is truly awful. Most people have little or no disposable income and no job security.

In a stupid attempt the first couple of years to maintain our standard of living; thinking that I'd find another management position (indeed ANY technology position); and to survive through two lengthy periods of unemployment, we have liquidated most of our savings.

We've almost gotten back to a livable balance, but I routinely work 80-hour weeks doing it. Good news--all my "work" is now related to music. I've started a terrific creativity mentoring program for kdis in our community. Bad news--Zero security. Late payroll has begun eroding my previously perfect credit record. Financial struggles and reduced pay have taken a toll on my marriage, contributing to a divorce after 30 years together.

This all also leaves me feeling bitter and cynical from time to time (not my nature), which I then take out on DU or on others who don't deserve it. The status quo is not sustainable.

[leftofthedial]

49. Here's an idea . . .

A DU entrepeneurial group and collaboration service

Any great go getters with wrold-class web development skills want to join me in turning an online music startup idea into a money-making enterprise?

[Chicago1]

50. A fellow HR person who understands

Modem Butterfly,

I COMPLETELY understand. The HR field has gone backwards and the labor issues in this country are out of control. I would love to have you post your story. Please come visit at: usaworkstories.blogspot.com or email to [e-mail].


Waiting for the IMPEACHMENT WHILE THE SCANDALS KEEP UNFOLDING
America's Work Stories
usaworkstories.blogspot.com
[e-mail]

[Taxloss]

51. Modem, I'm so sorry.

How awful for you. I am currently working for a company in a similar state, and there are a lot of demoralised people, but these things are very cyclical. Nothing is more costly than a high employee turnover, and that gets noticed.

[Bouncy Ball]

52. So you're still making about $120K together?

Not shabby, though I know you said the hours are much longer.

We've not broken the six figure area yet. We are really, really close, but not quite there. We consider ourselves very lucky just to HAVE jobs. I know a woman who just went through her third layoff in a year. They have put their house up for sale and are looking for something small and cheap. They just can't afford their four bedroom house anymore. And they have a kid in college and one in high school.

[NNN0LHI]

I think this is a joke post

My wife and I never made close to $120K a year in our lives. Shit. I would feel like I hit the friggen lottery if we made that kind of money. A victim? Who is kidding who here? This boy ain't falling for this. I seen a guy living under a bridge the other day. Now he is a victim.

Don

[Modem Butterfly]

56. I assure you, I am dead serious

If your income declined by 2/3rds in the space of a year, and you had to fight like hell to get back half of it, you sure wouldn't feel like you'd hit the lottery.

:grr:

[NNN0LHI]

57. Maybe its time to consider cutting back on your spending?

Have you considered that. What are you doing without these days? Your annual trips to Europe or something? Shit.

Don

[Modem Butterfly]

58. What is your problem?

Do you think we were asking for a comeuppance by making a lot of money? Do you think we deserved to lose our jobs because we used to have high incomes? Do you think the fact that we still earn more than some people means that everything is hunky-dory with the economy?

Seriously, what is your problem?

[NNN0LHI]

61. The use of the word victim is the problem

People are fucking starving to death and you consider yourself a victim? Get off it. You think everyone is an idiot around here or something? Good bye.

Don

[Modem Butterfly]

64. So if you're not starving to death, you're doing just fine?

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. Income disparity is one of the hallmarks of Capitalism and is a big problem. But the Bush economy is hurting people at all levels. To act as though someone who isn't starving to death is doing just fine is crazy.

[Pastiche423]

71. Gotta agree w/Don

Victim?

I live on a tenth of what just you used to make.

Sorry lady, no tears or sympathy from me. Ever hear of living simply?

[solinvictus]

76. Income and living standards are entirely relative to the cost of living..

So Modem and her partner make $120K? If they were here in Birmingham, AL, they'd be doing exceptionally well and able to enjoy a high standard of living. Now, apply that net income to a larger city like NYC, Boston, LA, Seattle, or Atlanta. Then, the cost of living increases exponentially and that money doesn't go as far. My SO and I were considering moving to NYC and at the time, our household income was about $64K. To live in the manner we did in Chattanooga, we'd need to earn at least double our income in NYC.

[musette_sf]

78. I am bothered

by the posters on this thread like you. After all the work that people like Modem and her partner put in, to get to where they have gotten, you think they deserve to have their compensation cut to a very low level because YOU live on a very low level?

My business background is somewhat similar to Modem and her partner, from what I can tell. I made tradeoffs and sacrifices to get there. I also have friends who make far, far less than what I make, and they made their choices accordingly also. They enjoy jobs that are not as consuming and intense, as mine is.

I am curious to know what you do for money, that you can act so pious and callous about Modem's story.

[Modem Butterfly]

81. I didn't ask for your tears or your sympathy

But I did want to discuss what's happening to the economy, specifically the way that businesses have raised their expectations on employee productivity in the face of the economic downturn. I'm sorry you can't get past the numbers.

[Hello_Kitty]

66. Geez!

Where's the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps"? I was expecting that too. Depending where you live, $120K can be a fortune or scraping by. Try living on that as a family in San Francisco.

MB's point is that things are getting harder for everyone in this economy. If he and his partner can go from where they were to where they are now, just imagine what's going to happen to people who make less money and don't have savings?

[Modem Butterfly]

67. I'm most distrubed by my conversation with my boss this AM

I think there's a lot of employers who've discovered that they can drive their employees much harder than normal if they have few or no options. This effect will hurt our job market for years.

[Hello_Kitty]

70. Oh absolutely

The market rewards efficiency. Most executives would mow half their employees down and turn them into fertilizer if that would save them some operating costs and increase their bottom line a few bucks.

[Modem Butterfly]

55. We're still doing okay

We're doing better than a lot of folks we know. But that's due in large part to luck and networking on my part- having been a headhunter, I have a lot of business contacts.

What concerns me most is the fact that my partner and I are the tip of an iceberg, and given the fact that employers seem to have figured out that they can squeeze more work out of fewer workers who have less options, I don't think it's going to change anytime soon...

[kiki]

53. You won't need money...

...when Cthulhu Kitty rises and eats us all.

[Cleita]

62. Sorry for your reversal of fortune.

Many are suffering from this slap in the face by the Bush economy. I too am having economic problems from this administration and I fear that they will be much worse before this is over.

What do we do?

[mtnsnake]

69. Almost everyone is feeling the pinch. Being self-employed almost all

my life, things went extremely well for a long time. Now, after many years of the same business, I'm working twice as hard and making less than I did a few years ago. Almost everyone I talk to says pretty much the same thing, whether they're working for someone else or whether they're self employed like I am. They're working harder and harder and making less. I thought it was supposed to be the opposite as you got older.

[conflictgirl]

72. I'm sorry to hear you're having to work more hours for less $$

I've learned not to mention exact dollar figures with people I know personally, though. We make $50K a year between the two of us and I have learned the hard way to not EVER complain about my husband's job (even though they have given him disciplinary action for missing a day when he had a horrible stomach bug) when I'm among people who have it worse. People say "well, he should just get a different job then" but even a job like his is very hard to find. Most jobs around here pay no more than $10/hour. Anyway, I'm not saying you don't deserve sympathy because it sucks to work more hours for less money, period. But a little advice from someone who's been in the same situation - don't mention the exact dollar figures next time because then people inevitably compare what they're making to your income. But if you said you took a 50% pay cut, that would probably get a LOT more sympathy.

[seabeyond]

74. good post conflict, you are right

but i dont think it is even a matter of sympathy modem is looking for. it is talking about something pretty important. i liked this thread, cause it was giving me a reality check on what is happening. it isnt like we are given this news from media, or any expert to honestly talk about what is happening so we can see if we can at least reverse the trend

sometimes i wonder if i am seeing it right.........as i see all hte huge vehicles adn huge houses and thumbs up from bush, yet i feel we have hollowed out our econmy

a lot fo these post confirm what i have been feeling

and i like how you express dont put a number too. i have been thinking at the turn in this thread, to oh cry me a river, stuff. lol lol. there are a lot a lot worse off

i know working in the dry cleaners for years, i wanted my customers to be making hte bucks, then they would use me, and pay their bills and i would keep my job

[barb162]

80. as my realtor told me, a lot of those huge houses and vehicles

are mortgaged to the hilt. A lot of these people have no savings but the impression they make with their their big cars and houses is very important to them

[Maine-ah]

73. welcome to my world

I currently make 23,000 a year. my husband makes 35,000 a year. in the summer he works 60-70 hours a week. in the summer i work 50-60 hours a week. it sucks. i'm sorry you ended up in this situation.

[Just Me]

77. You are definitely not alone.

I'm in the same boat albeit a different position. The farmers and truckers out here in rural America are really hurting, too. Everybody is.

[Nikia]

79. My husband and I, young college graduates, are victims too

He has had the misfortune of working for 3 businesses that either closed or severely downsized. I have been unable to advance in my career at my small company nor get a better job. Advertised entry level jobs that I considered when I graduated from college are paying the same or less than when I graduated 5 years ago and are more competitive. My husband is unemployed and make under $30,000, so much for the dream of a college education meaning that we'd be able to have a good jobs.

[bamademo]

82. I went from being a systems admin to computer operator

Laid off from a 46,000 dollar a year job in Oct. 2001. Didn't have to pay a dime for health insurance. For 18 months I worked shitty temp jobs (when I could get them) for 7 to 10 dollars an hour. In order to keep my car, I had to cash in 401K, sell stock and sell of my vintage Barbie doll collection. Vintage Barbie's are like a good stock. They just add value through the years. Go visit eBay and see how much they sell for.

In 2003, I took a temp job that turned into full time. Take home was 400 dollars a week until they did a wage determination study. Now I make a whopping $33,000 a year and pay $40 a month for health insurance. My little Mitsubishi Eclipse would have a full tank a year ago for 17 dollars. Now it takes $38 dollars a week to fill it up. Thank Deity, I paid it off this year. I noticed this weekend how much food prices had increased. I'm slowly being squeezed. I'm lucky because I have a safety net of friends and we all pitch in for things like food and wine (important during this administration. I'm about 2 paychecks and my new poor little 401K plan from disaster.

Bear in mind I live in Alabama. Bash the South all you want but the cost of living here is low. I live in an apartment on a mountain about 2 miles from a State park. I look out on the woods and only have to pay electricity. My highest bill this year was $85. I average about $40 a month. Digital cable and cable modem is about 125. I only pay 460 for rent. I barely have any disposable income anymore. In the Clinton admin, even with this salary, I would have still considered myself affluent. They classify me as lower middle class. I'm starting to consider myself at poverty level.