Should children born in the US of illegal immigrants be given citizenship?

[fujiyama]

This is something I was curious how DUers would react to. I'm already guessing we'll get more simplistic responses - send 'em home! send 'em home!

Well, what about natural born children of illegals? Would there be constitutional issues here regarding citizenship if those born here were denied citizenship based on the origin of their parents? What about those born here of parents on a work visa? Permanent residency? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I see some suggesting we do what Germany did - deny citizenship to those that aren't children of "American heritage".

I see reasoning in restricting illigal immigration. My parents came here legally and I think people should wait their turn to come in legally, but I hate childish flippant nativist responses whining about immigrants "stealing jobs" from Americans. That is nonsense and addresses little of the problem.

And I would say that if you chose the first option, you should consider yourself xenophobic.

[camitche]

1. Maybe duel citizenship. I thought that was the policy

[Undercover Owl]

14. No.

ANY child born in the US is a US citizen.
It's the law!

[camitche]

22. That doesn't mean they can't have citizenship elsewhere also

My girlfriend's mother is guatemalan, but she was born here so she has both US and Guatemalan citizenship.

[Undercover Owl]

28. oh, okay. different angle.

Yes, dual citizenship is the deal.

But what I said is correct: any child born on US soil is a US citizen.

[camitche]

60. Right, agreed.

[lenidog]

15. It depends on the country if your parents or one parent is

a citizen then then many times that country will give you citizenship. Some or even more lenient if you have a grandparent that was born in Ireland you can claim Irish citizenship or if you are Jewish, Israel will give you citizenship. The US officially does not recognize dual citizenship, in the oath you take to become a citizenship you swear or affirm to renounce any former loyalties.

[Skip Intro]

2. That's a hard question.

I lean toward only children of citizens should be given citizenship - doesn't deny others to become citizens in other ways, but I'm not 100% sure.

I tend to think the less laws, the better, recognizing the need for laws.

and that doesn't help a bit in this situation.

[fujiyama]

6. Ummm

So are you saying that even US born second generation persons should be allowed to run for president? After all, if they aren't considered natural born, they can't run.

The only reason not to give someone automatic citizensip is fear of those brown folks becoming citizens.

[lenidog]

23. If you are born in the United States

you automatically become a citizen. (small exceptions are made for diplomats children) Then you can become president. It doesn't matter where your parents were born or if they are illegal immigrants or not.

[Dorian Gray]

56. Exactly....

And that's the way it should be.

[Skip Intro]

30. huh?

natural born? what does that mean?

there might be a good reason not to give citizenship to people who are here illegally, without considering skin color. there might not be, too,I don't know.


I say erase the borders and lets all have a picnic.

[fujiyama]

33. By natural born

I actually meant US born, as in should that automatic citizenship status that is conferred upon being born here in the US continue as it is.

I don't mean those that actually entered illegally. I'm not in favor of general amnesty myself.

I can see the reasoning (though I disagree) with the idea of natural born children of illigal immigrants not being awarded automatic citizenship, but I see no justification in not allowing the children of all legal residents given automatic citizenship upon birth.

[Skip Intro]

42. Children of legal residents - yes, it has to be or the nation is bullshit.

Children of legal residents should be considered full citizens, part of the people, and the people run this nation. Either its true or it isn't.

[Undercover Owl]

32. ....brown folks....

"The only reason not to give someone automatic citizensip is fear of those brown folks becoming citizens."

My mother and my father are both immigrants, and yes, they happen to be caucasian. Legal. I was born in the U.S. and yes, I'm a citizen. Yes, they do happen to be working class white legal immigrants, in case anybody wonders.

What is your issue? Do you think all immigrants to the US are non-white?

[fujiyama]

34. Most recent immigrants

legal and non legal are not white.

It's usually racism that drives people to oppose immigration.

BTW, I'm not advocating amnesty. This is in the context of children of illigal immigrants being born here.

[Undercover Owl]

37. People need to be educated.

Not everyone knows that a child born in the US is a US citizen.

We could see this as a positive opportunity to inform people, and refrain from knee-jerkingly accuse "racism!" just because somebody is misinformed.

[fujiyama]

41. I do regret

I didn't state the current law as it is applied now that anyone born here is automatically conferred citizenship rights.

[Pithlet]

12. The problem is

if we take away citizenship because a person's parents weren't legal citizens, then where do we draw the line? I think if we go far enough back in most people's history, we can find someone who never technically became a citizen. If we deny a citizenship to someone who was born here, and they grow up and have children, who then go on to have children, and so forth... are none of them citizens, either? If we enacted that law, 50 years from now can they revoke someone's citizenship because his/her grandparents weren't citizens? And if not, then how is it any better to do it that grandparent?

If US citizenship is a birthright, then it is a birthright for all who are born here. It isn't fair to punish the child for who their parents are. My children aren't any more US citizens then any other baby born here because I happened to be born in the US. That baby in the bassinet next to my child isn't less of an American because their parents aren't.

[fujiyama]

18. Germany (and I believe some other European countries as well)

had this restriction for many years and it had the effect of creating a huge unassimilated underclass that never wanted anything to do with society.

Citizenship encourages people to become a part of society and contribute to it.

[Pithlet]

3. If a person is born on US soil

then they're an American citizen. If they're born here, and are going to grow up here, then they're going to be a part of our country, and are US citizens. A baby born of two illegal immagrants on US soil is no different then my babies who were also born here. Both took first breath in America. They're both Americans, as far as I'm concerned.

[Alaskan Liberal]

8. You're damned right!

People go to hell to get here. They are harassed, raped & murdered to escape places like Mexico and Cuba to come here and do the jobs none of us will do for less money than the government will allow us to be paid. They risk their lives to be our slaves because they believe it will be a better life than the one they have. If they get accross the border and have their baby here, their baby deserves the chance to have American citizenship! Their parents sacrificed more for their citizenship than any of us.

[gumby]

4. 14th Amendment defines citizenship:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

Well, I guess we can argue about what "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means? But that would take an "activist judge."

[adwon]

5. I think

"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is an independent clause. It likely applies to US territories and the like.

[ultraist]

13. One perspective

excerpts
http://www.fileus.com/dept/citizenship/hamdi/hamdi-complaint.html

The Fourteenth Amendment

The executive and legislative branches of the government have permitted the custom of granting automatic birthright citizenship to the offspring of illegal aliens, temporary workers, and tourists when these children are born on U.S. soil. However, the Fourteenth Amendment on which the practice is said to be based by no means mandates this custom.

This fact is made obvious when one considers that it took an act of Congress in 1922-more than a half century after the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868-to include American Indians in birthright citizenship. If the Fourteenth Amendment provided blanket inclusion for every child born within the borders of the United States, there would have been no need for statutory inclusion of the children of Native Americans.
Provides a definition of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and offers a conservative interpretation of the 14th amendment:

Furthermore, the current practice long recognized by the courts of excluding the children of foreign diplomats from birthright citizenship demonstrates that the Amendment allows for the exclusion of certain children born in the United States based on the legal status of their parents.

Amendment's "subject to the jurisdiction of" requires an allegiance not possible by illegal aliens, tourists and temporary workers

The Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment reads, "ll Persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."FN2 And section 1401 of Title 8 of the U.S. Code reads, in part: "The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth: (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof ...."

The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was included in the Amendment at the close of the Civil War, when Congress sought to establish a uniform national rule for naturalization to defeat the political currents that might prevail in any one state. In particular, the language was designed to prevent states from depriving freed slaves and their descendants of U.S. citizenship. But the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment could not have predicted the impact this language would have on immigration regulation in the modern era of burgeoning populations, widespread and easy global travel, and new and threatening demographic realities.

The "jurisdiction" that one is "subject to" referred to in the Citizenship Clause is a political one and requires a reciprocal obligation of permanent allegiance and protection. Peter H. Schuck, professor of law at Yale University, has written that the words "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" were intended to exclude from automatic citizenship people born on U.S. soil whose allegiance to the United States was not complete.FN3

In the landmark 1898 Wong Kim Ark case, Justice Gray referred to his earlier opinion in Elk v. Wilkens as the "only adjudication made by this court" on the meaning of the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause. He noted that in Elk v. Wilkens, an American Indian, although born in the United States, was held not to be a citizen by birth. The Court held that the meaning of the clause was "not merely subject to some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owning them direct and immediate allegiance."FN4

[adwon]

27. Ok

That wouldn't affect the children of illegals being citizens upon birth, though. Unless specifically exempted, like diplomats under treaty, anyone who comes into this country is automatically subject to its jurisdiction.

An exception to this rule could be carved out when dealing with the children of aliens, legal or illegal, though it seems that it would come into conflict with Section 1. To be in this country means that one is subject to its jurisdiction.

[lenidog]

26. Exactly if you are born in Guam, Saipan, US Virgin Islands,

Puerto Rico, American Samoa you are still considered an American citizen also if your parents are citizens and you are born on a military base you automatically have citizenship. Your parents just have to file a little more paperwork than just a birth certificate.

[Crunchy Frog]

7. I thought that anyone born in the U.S.

was automatically a citizen.:shrug:

[ISUGRADIA]

9. You are right, a constitutional amendement would be needed

to change this.

[ultraist]

16. Actually no, case law could interpret the amendment

Likely, a conservative SCOTUS would interpret it to mean that children born on this soil, of illegal alien parents were NOT US citizens.

[ISUGRADIA]

24. Any change of interpretation can be made but it would ignore

140 years of history. The article was worded so that anyone born on US soil would be a citizen because slaves had been declared non-citizens. By wording it such, it guaranteed that Congress could not deprive blacks of citizenship surepticiously. A conservative SCOTUS would have to also ignore original intent. A big no-no for "strict constructionists"

[ultraist]

29. You may well be correct.

I'm not very familiar with this but according to some, the intent was to exclude some who are born here, from citizenship:

subject to the jurisdiction thereof" were intended to exclude from automatic citizenship people born on U.S. soil whose allegiance to the United States was not complete.FN3

[fujiyama]

10. They are

But I wanted to gauge this anti immigrant fervor here at DU and wanted to see if it was held toward just illegal immigrants or all people that come to the US.

I think there is a xenophobic strain here at DU that's very virulent and I'm not talking about those that believe illegal immigration is a serious problem. I've seen a range of responses recently claiming the party should take Buchanan's line on immigration to shoot "those spicks crossing the border" attitude.

[Undercover Owl]

35. yes, you better put out that fire.

Yes, anyway...I think it's great that people can air their feelings about a controversial topic.

I think this topic is a hotbed for flames, though.

[lenidog]

11. They are but a some people want to change that

because they believe that too many illegal immigrants are coming across the border and giving birth making their children citizens making it impossible to deport the parents who are still illegal.

[ultraist]

20. RWers want to change it

But not because it makes it impossible to deport illegal aliens if they have children who are US citizens. They deport parents of US children.

It's more about disempowering undocumentated workers and being certain they cannot recieve any welfare benefits or other benefits of being a citizen.

[JI7]

17. this issue came up some years ago

i think pete wilson proposed it and most people including even right wing republicans who were making a huge thing about illegals were opposed to denying citizenship to ANYONE born in america.

[oasis]

19. Born in the USA and you're a citizen. "It's a good thing."

[Pushed To The Left]

21. Anybody born here should be a citizen!

This is why progressives should take control of the immigration issue. Unlike the cheap labor conservatives, we really want to solve the problem. We can solve it without robbing people that are born here of their citizenship. Better border security is the answer.

[ultraist]

25. I agree. It's UN-American to demand only second generation births

or those who have been naturalized can be citizens.

As someone pointed out, would it be second generation, third generation? How far would they go back?

This country was created by immigrants. The anti immigrant sentiment we are seeing is primarily unfounded hysteria and a product of xenophobia.

There are far more influential factors on our employment rates and economy than undocumentated workers.

Outsourcing, for one. Job creation is down, corps are investing their profits in other countries, closing down shop here on all levels. From manufacturing labor jobs to high level research and management (CEO, CFO) positions, it's going offshore.

The tax system, which overburdens the middle and working classes is another HUGE problem.

Minimum wage is yet another. There are numerous factors that weigh more heavily on this crisis than does undocumentated workers.

[fujiyama]

31. But it's a hell of a lot easier

to blame those in desperate situations that had the unfortunate chance of being born elsewhere.

[ultraist]

38. Yes or someone of a different skin color

Blacks and early immigrants faced this same thing. "They are stealing our jobs, those dirty, lazy, drunken, whatevers."

The more desperate people feel, the more threatened, the more they lash out and scapegoat. Financial insecurity can make some very hostile and irrational.

[Undercover Owl]

40. hard times make people "lash out".

"...The more desperate people feel...Financial insecurity.."
"..the more they lash out and scapegoat.."

You are talking about the economy today! The conditions are ripe for scapegoating!

[ultraist]

44. Yes, exactly.

People are really feeling the pressure. Well, at least many in the middle class and lower classes. 1.5 million people fell into poverty last year alone. Our poverty rate has increased for the first time in decades.

Bush's ANTI lower and middle class system coupled with globalization of our economy (outsourcing), many people are really feeling the squeeze.

[autorank]

36. Illegal entry triviliazes our integrity as a nation. Citizenship only

encourages it. It you want to stop a behavior, you DO NOT reinforce it. These people are allowed in to provide cheap labor for construction and other industries. Fuck them, let them pay a living wage to Americans. If Mexico and Central America don't has us as a safety valve, their people may damn well demand honest government (like we may do someday).

No rewards for illegal acts, no citizenship for parents who come here and live here illegally.

[ultraist]

39. Less than 20% of new jobs are taken by undocumented workers

I'm not saying we shouldn't address immigration, but simply pointing out that there is a lot of hysteria and misinformation surrounding this issue, thanks to a segment of the RWers and their propoganda.

[Lucky Luciano]

43. 20% is a lot!

Definitely enough to drive the wage down for Americans. Some blue collar people are hurting, but a lot of this also stems from outsourcing, NAFTA, etc as well.

Also, a good number of those 20% are in concentrated areas which can have a much higher number very locally. eg Texas, SoCal, etc.

For example, when I moved back to NYC from LA, it seemed strange to me when I saw "white" people doing construction or landscaping - Of course they get paid more to do this. A landscaping business can make someone quite wealthy in the NYC area suburbs.

[ultraist]

45. What would be a reasonable percentage?

We don't want to completely close our borders. 60% of our top researchers are foreign born. If we close our borders completely, in a short amount of time, we will become non-competitive.

I really don't know what would be reasonable. How many immigrants does the US allow now? I know the caps have changed and it depends on the country. Maybe that needs to be revisited.

[Lucky Luciano]

46. We definitely do no want to completely close the borders

Actually, because of 911, the scrutiny that foreigners have been put under has actually caused a fall in the brain influx (as opposed to drain) to the US from other countries. Many foreigners decide to get their PhDs outside the US now due to the level of watch over them. Of course this is bad for us since they usually stay in the US afterwards if their degree was over here.

All highly skilled labor should be allowed in. We can never have too much of that within our borders.

I interviewed for a job in London and looked at these forms for highly skilled labor - I did not make the grade due to my being fresh out fo grad school with no record of significant income. I am sure we have similar visas here:

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/working_in_the_uk/en/homepage/schemes_and_programmes/hsmp.html

All that said, I do like to see people come here and succeed starting with a starry eyed dream. It is much harder to do that today than 100 years ago, but even if someone does not "make it," their children will most likely have it better. People should not be denied that, but it all has to be done in some kind of orderly fashion - that is the big question - how to do it in an orderly fashion. The Minute Men are the antithesis of an orderly way of doing this. It really smells like it is going to brew trouble. Perhaps a couple billion bucks earmarked for Iraq can be diverted to border security....that is about as likely as a well deserved b*sh impeachment though.

[ultraist]

47. Those minute men are scary!

The last thing we need are a bunch of gun toting vigilantes patroling our borders.

Many other countries are far stricter than the US. I'm under the impression it's easier to get a visa here than in England, France, Canada and many other countries. I'm pretty certain it is much easier for students. We are very dependent on foreign students.

I really don't know what caps would be reasonable. I need to read up on this.

[Pushed To The Left]

49. I heard an interview with one of the MinuteMen

It sounded like they didn't plan on confronting anybody. They were mainly just observing and reporting, calling the authorities if they saw anybody coming in illegally. The ACLU is keeping an eye on things to make sure no abuse is going on. One person who has had some harsh words for the MinuteMen: George W. Bush. I can see how something like this could be dangerous if it attracts the wrong people, but from what I've heard so far it sounds like their intentions are good. Border security hurts cheap labor conservatism! That's probably the real reason "W" doesn't like these guys.

[Nay]

52. I do have to point out that the reason a lot of our researchers are

foreign-born is that the companies here use visas to import cheaper workers in ALL fields, not just for landscaping, construction, etc. While this is good for the foreign-born workers, it's not so good for the scientists, computer programmers, etc., already here and out of work because they "make too much money."

I can certainly understand the humanitarian impulse to let lots of people in, but we have to get a handle on the numbers and we have to take care of the citizens (both natural born and naturalized) before we can worry about everyone outside the borders or ones here illegally. Otherwise, we aren't a nation -- we're just a big magnet for millions of folks who, understandably, want to make a buck by coming here to work, and we're encouraging our companies to hire cheap instead of American workers. This doesn't work to anyone's benefit in the long run -- wages become so depressed that no one can live on them, companies get too powerful and too used to workers who act too compliant, etc. etc. I just don't see the upside for the country as a whole.

Legal immigration and naturalization can take care of our needs for new ideas and new workers, but wholesale illegal immigration is a killer.

[Pushed To The Left]

48. I believe we can stop illegal immigration

without changing the citizenship status of people who are born here. I believe that having stronger border security and going after the cheap labor conservatives that hire illegal immigrants would be much more effective.

[fleabert]

51. glad to know you hate my family.

so happy to be under the same tent with you. 'Fuck them' is something I didn't think I'd ever read from a progressive. I guess it takes all types.


edited for spelling.

[autorank]

55. Misread -- the "f'them" was clearly directed at those who exploit aliens.

Here's what I said: "...cheap labor for construction and other industries. Fuck them, let them pay a living wage..." Let them pay a living wage--that's the people who pay or offer and then not pay $2-3 an hour,no benefits to illegals because they are illegal and cannot complain. I was NOT at all referring to the aliens. The same people who exploit the illegals turn around and give mega-bucks to the Republicans, I strongly suspect, and oppose any type of labor protection or social welfare programs. This was not in any directed at you at your family and I'm sorry that I was not more precise, although I tried to make it clear so as not to offend unintentionally.

I'm all for a North American Common Market. It just has to be developed in a way that Mexico and Central American countries can grow based on real economic principals rather than relying on off-loading their workers to the US. I see Mexico, for example, as possibly the very best economic partner we can have over the next 20-30 years. The illegal entry situation is something that holds that back.

[fleabert]

59. Yes, I did misread. on edit: sort of

Please remmember that some employers provide housing, education, a living wage, and help them become citizens. (my family is in this camp, and started off as illegal themselves)

it is not so simple. I don't know what the answer is...

on edit: thinking about it for a bit, and you still did say 'fuck them' to my family, as they employed illegal immigrants. But they treated them extremely well, so perhaps you would allow them some leeway in your opinion?

[autorank]

61. Leeway granted. But you know that the majority of employers

don't treat illegals well. You family is not, I'm sure, representative and I believe what your'e saying without any question. As per my PM, I've seen the exploitation on a large scale and it's really a shame.

Hopefully, we can start working with Mexico, our good neighbor, and get this straightened out. That would mean, a quickly expanding set of opportunities in Mexico and a real opportunity for that country to achieve its greatness, which is only held back by a government that is far less than the people deserve (just like here!).

[fleabert]

62. glad we can find some common ground.

Migrant workers (illegal or not) can be treated fairly, and paid fairly. and the simple truth is that Americans will NOT do the work voluntarily. I spoke with my family member again today about this. They said the only time they saw any Americans working a field (not with them) was when a home for 'wayward' kids punished the really bad kids by sending them to the fields. It was quite an isult to the 40 yr old adults who valued and appreciated the job to be working next to a person who saw the work as punishment. They lasted three days before refusing to return. (all white kids, btw)

I think Americans feel (for the most part) that they are entitled to a job, and Mexicans appreciate any work they can get, and you see that in the quality of the work and their dedication. I also think most Americans feel there are jobs that are 'beneath' them, and would refuse to do the work that is done by illegal immigrants. I have personally seen many a person be offered a job as a janitor (I was doing the hiring) and they literally said, "I'm better than that."

IMO, if you shit, you aren't beneath cleaning it up. Last time I checked, we all shit.

[thereismore]

50. What kind of question is that?

They get US citizenship by law. Period.

[Bridget Burke]

53. Of course. Why should it change?

I'm especially disgusted at those who've voted that only children born to citizens become citizens.

[MollyStark]

54. The biggest problem is corporations bringing in workers

to do jobs that should be decent paying white collar jobs. They claim that americans are not trained to do the same work which is not true. Do something about that problem and leave the poor farm and construction workers alone.

Of course children born here should have citizenship. But I wouldn't mind outlawing dual citizenship including for people with Israel citizenship. Either you are a citizen of this country to you are not.

[Walt Starr]

57. Sorry, but under the constitution, these children are citizens

There is only one way to alter that. Amend the constitution.

[Beausoir]

58. You are talking about my five children.

And you better damn well believe they deserve their citizenship.

I adopted all 5 children at birth. Their birthparents were undocumented and tremendously poverty stricken.

[DoNotRefill]

63. Why punish the kid...

for the parent's legal violation? "Corruption of blood" (punishing people for the crimes of family members) is specifically outlawed in the Constitution.

[fujiyama]

64. Well said

I agree completely.