I have my flag at half staff

[Walt Starr]

I have flown a flag every day since my wife and I purchased our home nearly two years ago.

I fly my flag at half staff when important figures pass on. I flew it at half staff when the Columbia disaster happened. I even flew it at half staff when Ronald Reagan died, not so much out of respect for the man but out of respect for the office he held.

I am a Pagan man who adamantly supports reproductive freedom for women, social freedom for GLBT persons, and religious freedom for all. Anybody familiar with my posts on DU will recognize this.

Today I fly my flag at half staff out of respect for a man who, in my humble opinion, reflected absolute perfection at standing up consistently for those values in which he believed. I did not agree with many of his value judgments, but I MUST respect the man for his consistency in his positions.

My flag will remain at half staff until a new Pope has been announced.

This is a sign of respect and a demonstration that even though there are men to whom I am vehemently opposed and who are not worthy of my respect, there are still those with whom I can civilly disagree and yet respect immensely.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

1. Yes yes yes and another yes :)

I agree with EVERYTHING you said .

[cynatnite]

2. Goes to show the impact this man had on the world

When it came to peace, freedom, human rights and life, this man reached across barriers to all no matter who they were, who they worshipped or anything else.

He walked the walk very few will ever match.

[Walt Starr]

8. He apologized for the Inquisition

As a Witch, I can respect that!

[puddycat]

26. He certainly didn't further women's rights--in fact he reversed them!

did it ever occur to any of you posters that JPII actually had a small part in the now domination of super-conservative thought in America? Afterall, he stood for backward thinking of many rights that had been hard-fought for.

[Walt Starr]

28. The Religious Reich doesn't even recognize Catholics

as fellow Christians.

[cynatnite]

39. My mom still says catholicism is a cult n/t

[cynatnite]

38. I credit him with the downfall of communism

If you read my post you'll see that I said there was a lot I didn't agree with. In fact, most of the Catholics I know didn't agree and didn't go along with it.

I never expect to agree with anyone 100% of the time and this was no different. I applaud the great things he did and shake my head at what I didn't like.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. No, not hardly. The efforts of every president since Truman are MUCH....

...more responsible for communism's collapse than the late pope.

We destroyed the Soviet Union with an economic war highlighted by the military buildup of the Cold War, a buildup that led to the failure of the Soviet economy. The rest is history.

What role did the late pope play in the downfall of communism? If he played any role at all, it was VERY minor.

[cynatnite]

48. Check this out

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pope/communism/

Again and again, people told us that it was. John Paul II's 1979 trip was the fulcrum of revolution which led to the collapse of Communism. Timothy Garton Ash put it this way, "Without the Pope, no Solidarity. Without Solidarity, no Gorbachev. Without Gorbachev, no fall of Communism." (In fact, Gorbachev himself gave the Kremlin's long-term enemy this due, "It would have been impossible without the Pope.") It was not just the Pope's hagiographers who told us that his first pilgrimage was the turning point. Skeptics who felt Wojtyla was never a part of the resistance said everything changed as John Paul II brought his message across country to the Poles. And revolutionaries, jealous of their own, also look to the trip as the beginning of the end of Soviet rule.

It took time; it took the Pope's support from Rome--some of it financial; it took several more trips in 1983 and 1987. But the flame was lit. It would smolder and flicker before it burned from one end of Poland to the other. Millions of people spread the revolution, but it began with the Pope's trip home in 1979. As General Jaruzelski said, "That was the detonator."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. I can't believe anyone would swallow that....

...heap of steaming propaganda. The late pope was being used by the West as just another propaganda ploy toward the end of the Cold War.

You really need to read a few books that discuss the REAL causes of the fall of communism. I can guarantee you that NO serious historian believes that the late pope had ANYTHING to do with the collapse of communism.

[cynatnite]

52. I do think communism would have failed anyway, but...

I think it would have been much slower and deadly. I do credit him with it because Reagan and no one else could have helped it's demise any better than the Pope.

A book I read, I don't have it anymore, said that communist leaders were afraid of him. They saw a man who wasn't afraid to stand up to them and to challenge them.

Either way, the Solidarity movement didn't really catch steam until the Pope's visit. They expected 50,000 and got 2 million when the Pope arrived.

A lot of factors helped it along, but it was the Pope who really pushed it to its death.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. You destroyed your own position with your first phrase....

..."I do think communism would have failed anyway".

The economic death-knell of the former Soviet Union has it's roots in the policies of every president since Truman. The tipping point took place during the Afghan-Soviet War, a war that drained the Soviet Union of every resource they had.

Again, the pope had very little to do with the fall of communism. He was used by the West as a propaganda focal point...and he used the West to further his own agenda for Catholicism. A perfect match of political allies.

[Deja Q]

41. Human rights and life? Really?! As far as homosexuals were to him,

I'm surprised he never "pulled a Hitler" and said it'd be okay for everybody to kill anyone they suspected of being homosexual!

He said just about everything else about homosexuals.

People need to stop projecting spurious morality onto the man with the uber-sized McDonalds cap. It doesn't suit him and the media needs to be fair and not blissfully gushing half-truths in a feeble attempt to make him far more than he was.

After all, he could afford all the health care those who sent him tithes probably could not. Says a lot about life, doesn't it?

[cynatnite]

45. What exactly did he say about homosexuals?

I've heard a few things here and there, but nothing concrete.

[Dark]

70. In his memoirs he said we have an 'agenda of evil'. n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Oh, please. What "walk" was he taking in regards to his stand on....

...HIV/AIDS, gay marriage, gays in general, and contraceptives? The damage he's done to population control is off the charts.

"Peace, freedom, human rights and life"??? For whom, exactly?

[cynatnite]

47. He was still the product of a conservative environment

and took his religious views seriously. I don't expect his views to follow exactly along with mine, but the fact of the matter is when it comes to pro-life, he was that way all the way.

He opposed the death penalty, abortion, wars, euthenasia and anything else that caused death. He publicly endorsed for debt relief for Africa which still has an AIDs epidemic.

He considered homosexuality a sin, but so does a lot of people. He was by all rights a conservative man that believed he followed the teachings of the bible as he knew it.

He lobbied against the war before it started. He said that unilateral agression is a crime against peace and a violation of international law.

This is one guy that no one can apply a conservative or liberal label to. He went with his conscience and his beliefs and that's the walk he walked.

How many politicians can you say does that?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. "He opposed the death penalty" while he knew for a fact that because...

...of his policies toward HIV/AIDS he was condemning miilions to a long painful death.

He opposed abortion but offered NOTHING in the way of a program for taking care of the millions of unwanted children.

Pro-life"? He had a funny way of showing it.

And why do you believe the late pope was NOT a politician?

[cynatnite]

53. I never said I didn't think he was a politician

Did you even read my post? I knew the info, but I double checked it on wikipedia to be accurate.

Many of his beliefs were conservative as I said. He was pro-life. Period. He was also a strong supporter and lobbied for debt relief for impoverished nations.

I see him as a man with a lot of conservative values, but so are a lot of people.

I'm not as eager as some are to cast him in the same lot with other hypocrites because I don't see him that way.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. Rest assured that I read your post. I stand by my response....

...the late pope was just as devious and manipulative as any western politician. He found perfect partners in the rightwing fascists emerging in this country.

Did you read my post about his policies toward HIV/AIDS and birth control? Funny, I saw nothing in your comments that addressed those issues. Silence speaks volumes, IMHO.

[cynatnite]

62. I did address that, but I can see I didn't clarify

The Pope was a strong advocate of debt relief and much of his focus was on Africa which has a raging epidemic. He worked with Bono, from U2 on this. The debt relief that was given to many impoverished nations helped free up more funds for education, much needed medication and preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.

He was a pro-life Pope who believed that the only birth control available should be abstinance. I agree the thinking belongs back in the dark ages, but the guy was a conservative by all accounts. I know I've said this before.

People have problems with these issues. I understand that. I don't agree with them, but to me when I look at his philosophies and how he lived his life, it's not that difficult for me to understand.

[noamnety]

77. I'm not impressed by his consistency on birth control

He's the co-author of this gem:

"If it should be declared that contraception is not evil in itself, then we should have to concede frankly that the Holy Spirit had been on the side of the Protestant churches in 1930 (when the encyclical Casti Connubii was promulgated), in 1951 (Pius XII's address to the midwives), and in 1958 (the address delivered before the Society of Hematologists in the year the pope died). It should likewise have to be admitted that for a half century the Spirit failed to protect Pius XI, Pius XII, and a large part of the Catholic hierarchy from a very serious error.

This would mean that the leaders of the Church, acting with extreme imprudence, had condemned thousands of innocent human acts, forbidding, under pain of eternal damnation, a practice which would now be sanctioned. The fact can neither be denied nor ignored that these same acts would now be declared licit on the grounds of principles cited by the Protestants, which popes and bishops have either condemned or at least not approved."

Absolute power corrupts. When you start outlawing birth control, not because of religious beliefs, but rather because it might cause the church to look bad, that's corrupt. It's outrageous how many lives have been (and will be) destroyed because of that stance - all for the church to save face.

[cadmus]

74. JP II

cynatnite-You are arguing with bigots. Give up.

[BOSSHOG]

3. Thank You

My wife and are Catholic, although I have done an incredible amount of soul searching relative to the churchs political activities in this country. However, I have never found the opportunity to not admire John Paul II. He was one helluva world leader to be respected by those of all religious stripes. Thanks for the tribute. I'm onboard with your thoughts and desires. I guess that's why we hang out at DU huh?

[thinkingwoman]

4. Amen

and blessed be.

Consistency is a virtue that commands respect, especially in this day and age.

[Midnight Rambler]

5. The church near my apartment has it's doorway draped with a black banner

Simple, but poingant. Haven't seen any flags at half mast though. Funny thing is, the flags in front of the UT tower are always look like they're at half mast, because of the ropes or something, they just droop once thye're raised.

As for myself, I actually don't have any flags to fly at half mast. I probably would fly it at half mast, even though I'm an atheist, out of respect for my upbringing and my family. They're all still very serious Catholics, and I'm sure they are all in mourning today.

[fooj]

6. You are a good and honorable man, Mr. Starr.

Peace!

[Endangered Specie]

7. The Pope supported evolution...

and was quite pro-science.

The next Pope is going to have quite a legacy to live up to.

[WildEyedLiberal]

9. I applaud your ability to respect those with whom you may disagree

Your post reminded me of this little snip from a Yahoo News article:

"Giulio La Rosa, a 23-year-old student in Rome, burst into tears.

'I'm not a believer, but I came here because I believe in him as a builder of freedom,' he said."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050402/ap_on_re_eu/pope_scene_12

Thank you for your excellent post.

[imenja]

10. I admire greatly your respect for another religion

I have a question though. Is it typical to fly a flag at half staff for the death of figures not connected in some way to the US government? I thought it was a statement of American patriotism in particular. I may of course be wrong on this.

[Walt Starr]

15. Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7 of the United States Code states how

a flag is flown on United States Federal property.

I say how it is flown on my own property.

[imenja]

16. don't get me wrong here

I'm not suggesting you don't have a right to do exactly what you please with your flag. I wouldn't dream of it. I was simply wondering what standard procedure is.

[Walt Starr]

17. I'll quote the code for you.

(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff 30 days from the death of the President or a former President; 10 days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. The flag shall be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless that day is also Armed Forces Day. As used in this subsection—
(1) the term “half-staff” means the position of the flag when it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff;
(2) the term “executive or military department” means any agency listed under sections 101 and 102 of title 5, United States Code; and
(3) the term “Member of Congress” means a Senator, a Representative, a Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico.

[imenja]

20. thanks

very informative!

[babylonsister]

21. I heard tonight the federal flags in the US will be flown at

half mast until the Pope is buried.

[Psephos]

11. Awesome n/t

[Zynx]

12. I thank you for your honorable display.

Good show. :-)

[ronnykmarshall]

13. Walt ... thank you

:loveya:

[wakeme2008]

14. Plus he was a true Pro-Lifer

Against the Death Penalty, not just some Pro-Life issues. I can respect that type of Pro-Lifer.....

[Zynx]

19. He even asked Bush to spare McVeigh.

That's ballsy.

[fujiyama]

37. Well this is the same man

that forgave the man that tried to assassinate him and sat down and prayed with him.

I think there are a few people of any faith or lack thereof that would do something like that.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. The man who tried to kill him is of the Islamic faith. What makes you....

...think that he was willing to pray with the late pope for ANY reason?

The late pope was a propaganda expert, one that flourished in one of the largest propaganda machines the world has ever seen. He never made a move that wasn't carefully and coldly calculated.

[havocmom]

18. Well said, sir

Yes, the man stood his ground and was honorable.

I, too, do not agree with his Church. That does not preclude me from respecting him as a spiritual and courageous man.

Glad he is free of his limiting mortal shell. May his spirit find great comfort in a life well lived.

[babylonsister]

22. Perfect, Walt. Thanks. nt

[Sugarbleus]

23. Very nicely put Walt. .... n/t

[puddycat]

24. I disagree with your reasoning.

I can't admire a man who stood for so much I disagreed with. He was against women's rights--the right to dominion over one's private organs, the right to obtain contraception, and he thought women weren't fit to lead the sacraments of the church.

My God, Hitler was consistent in his positions, and I'm sure you wouldn't use that as a reason to admire him, so your reasoning makes no sense to me. The man represented an organization that shields pedophiles, an organization that is super-wealthy yet keeps on demanding money from its poorest members, an organization that promotes nonsense over reason, and that promotes conformity over individual thought.

I find nothing to admire in either its representatives nor the institution itself, neither do I admire most religions on this Earth right now.

I do hold certain beliefs in God and Jesus, but find organized religion not a force for good.

[Walt Starr]

25. You are free to feel that way.

My flag still flies at half staff.

Regardless of your feelings, the Catholic Church has progressed far more over this Papacy than any other during history. The very structure of the Catholic Church demands that the Church cannot progress at a faster rate.

[puddycat]

27. Evidently women's rights mean little to you

In regard to women's rights this Papal legacy is worse than nil--he has done much harm to women.

[Walt Starr]

29. Evidently, you've never read any of my posts.

I recommend the Search function.

[puddycat]

30. well then how can you admire a man who stands against women's rights?

Just asking.

[Walt Starr]

31. The same way I admire John Fitzgerald Kennedy

JFK never supported reproductive freedom in his time. He was a product of his church, his upbringing, and his time. There is no way on this Green Earth that JFK would've lifted a finger to make abortion legal during his presidency.

How can you admire JFK?

Franklin Delano Roosevelt never once suggested reproductive freedom for women should be the law of the land. He never once pushed for any bill to make abortion legal.

How can you admire FDR?

Abraham Lincoln never even considered giving women the right to vote. Never did it enter his mind to give women the same status as the male slaves he helped to free.

How can you respect Abraham Lincoln?

See how it works now?

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. Nicely argued

One-issue people are like the mosquito that buzzes around your head when you are trying to sleep. Annoying as fuck, and ultimately achieves nothing by missing the world around it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. Yes, and I'm sure that your post is winning friends and...

...influencing enemies by stating that posters offering opinions in opposition to Walt Starr's comments are "one-issue" posters.

Truth is, you know nothing about the political beliefs of posters responding to this thread, and with an attitude like yours, it's very unlikely you ever will.

[Rabrrrrrr]

55. Perhaps if you'd read the subthread,

and then and therefore knew what I was posting about and in reference to, you would have made a more relevant post and not put your foot in your mouth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. Perhaps if you weren't so personally abusive and insulting....

...your post might carry some weight.

As it is now, I'm laughing at you, not with you.

Have a nice evening.

[zanne]

76. If you have to go back 100 years to prove your point....

You're really reaching, and not answering the poster's questions.

[Walt Starr]

78. I didn't have to go back 100 years

I proved my point with only JFK. Lincoln serves to demonstrate how this is applicable all the way back if people would only choose to look.

[Cooley Hurd]

32. Wow, Walt... that's pretty damn cool!

:thumbsup:

[Walt Starr]

33. Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[rockymountaindem]

34. You're a class act.

[Merope215]

35. Walt - you're a great guy

As a practicing but agnostic Catholic who vehemently disagrees with many of the Church's teachings, I've been trying to figure out why the Pope's death has upset me so much. Reading your OP, I think I've figured it out. Thank you for your post and the sentiment that inspired it. It means a great deal today.

Peace and blessings to you and yours.

[Walt Starr]

36. Hey Michelle Malkin, read a REAL DU post for once

Don't reference posts that some Reichwing Nutball Troll posted. Reference a REAL post!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. Yes, Michelle, by all means, please link this thread....

...because it does nothing but kiss your butt, and the collective butts of the rest of the rightwing fascists that now control the country.

[Walt Starr]

65. WTF are you talking about?

That was totally uncalled for!

[karlrschneider]

40. I remain somewhat ambivalent about JPII, but respect your opinion

I am trying to recall when the term "half staff" replaced "half mast" which was the term I heard for many years since I was a pup. Was there some sort of official dictate on that change of terminology? It just seemed to 'appear' (to me) a few decades ago and I can't remember when or why it ocurred...

?

[RobinA]

43. Great Man or Not

my flag will never fly at half mast for a religious figure. Come to think of it, my flag isn't flying at any mast. I took it down when I learned about the concentration camp at Guantanamo Bay and it stays down as long as we have an official policy of torture and imprisonment of people in violation of the Constitution.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. My flag came down in December 2000. As long as we continue to be...

...governed by rightwing fascists, it will stay down.

But, I also agree with your comments.

[oneighty]

69. Yes

My forty eight star flag which was flown on a Navy ship is hiding clean and safe and warm and dry and greatly embarrassed by the gross misuse of its sister flags.

I do fly the Gadsden flag of the Revolution. "Don't Tread On Me"

180

[bushcrab]

61. My flag came down in disgrace when bush invaded Iraq

been waiting ever since for a good reason to raise it up again. Lately, I'm wondering if that day will ever come.

[ObaMania]

63. Walt, you said..

"Today I fly my flag at half staff out of respect for a man who, in my humble opinion, reflected absolute perfection at standing up consistently for those values in which he believed. I did not agree with many of his value judgments, but I MUST respect the man for his consistency in his positions."

Based on that statement, will you be flying it at 1/2 staff when * passes away?
:shrug:

[Walt Starr]

66. No

* is inconsistent in both his behavior and his stances.

I will, however, fly my flag at half staff out of resepct for the office he currently holds.

[flygal]

64. You know

you have summed up and stood by your position well, I must say I have to admire you. Well said - and great argument in post 31!!

[zanne]

67. I'll be so glad when I don't have to be "nice" about the pope!

I'm sorry for the sorrow that alot of you are feeling, but please don't jump all over people for thinking differently about him. Many of us are being courteous, despite our feelings about religion and OUR beliefs. Please don't try to shove us around because the pope died.

[Walt Starr]

71. Nobody is trying to shove you around, you shoved yourself around

you never had to click on this thread. You don't have to read a word about the Pope. You don't have to watch news reports about the Pope.

You are choosing to shove yourself around as you are choosing to pay attention to the Pope.

Why are you doing that to yourself?

[lonestarnot]

68. My flag fell down and I threw it in the trash like the rest of the

politicians have done, and I refuse to replace it with one made in CHINA!

[BigBearJohn]

72. You are loved for your wisdom. Thank God we have people like you.

You restore me.

[anarchy1999]

73. Thank you Walt. You are standing up and you helped me to understand.

I was having a tough time with the Shrimp saying our flags would fly at half mast. Thank you.

[Democrats_win]

75. Go to Arlington and apologize to the men who fought for the flag

Honor them. Not liars like the Pope and traitors like Reagan.

[Walt Starr]

79. That's pretty abusive

I'll fly my flag at half mast if a member of my family dies regardless of their level of service.

I'll fly my flag at half mast whenever and for wmosoever I deem it necessary.

You have no say in how I fly my flag.

[Piperay]

80. Two thumbs up

I'm not catholic but I think John Paul was a good man who was not a hypocrite and he is worthy of respect. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: