As to an open discussion on religion.. I happen to think more tribal USA

[applegrove]

is bad. Tribalism is defeated by the plurality of democracies. Which is why when George W Bush wants to defeat the tribal Islamist Arab Fundies in the Middle East he (& his gang) jump on the democracy band-wagon. And tries to institute democracy everywhere.

Where George Bush & his cabal want to defeat democracy (as in the Democratic Party & representative government to form a single party state in the USA) they institute tribalism in the USA.

Tribalism is how the British Empire ruled such vast territories. They created tribal hierarchies and inter-tribal hate where there was none, or not much.

I come from the position where in order to defeat 'encouraged or created tribalism' we need to be more open and empathetic with all groups in America. Including the groups we have ignored or marginalized ourselves. The religious would be one of those groups.

I just think that encouraging increasing tribalism & not fight the Repuke machine on that.. is sticking our heads in the sand.

We either fight for our big tent.. or not!

[Inland]

1. There is a huge amount of "our kind" in the RW religious

identification. The culture wars go on in a whole bunch of levels, religion is one, but rural and suburban vs city, traditional nuke family vs singles and gays

It's actually amazing how Rove weaved together a perfect storm of identifiers, so that the mere picture of Kerry on a windboard made him everything that all those groups detested.

Group ID, for sure.

[applegrove]

2. When they test Americans on the issues, many fundies are not for

making all abortion illegal. They just hate how tritely the issue is considered by some Liberals. And these very same people do NOT NOT NOT want to see poor girls and women dying because they cannot afford to get on a plane like the rich & middle class girls will.

[Ron Green]

3. The adult thing to do is to include.

Tribalism is a childish state, seeing the "other" as dangerous or wrong. But it's a state that comes naturally to us, as fear is the natural state of life on earth. To see the "other" not as a danger but as a brother, or even as part of one's own Self, is the highest purpose of life, I believe. And I think that we, as adults, must strive to include everyone into our struggle to be free, as difficult and counter-intuitive as that may be.

The beauty of our liberal democratic republic is that it can be a method for inclusion, at the same time reserving the power to punish and correct those who threaten the whole. A real grown-up idea for government, unfortunately hijacked at times by fearful children.

Both at FR where they are imploding over the Schiavo fiasco and here on DU where we are sniping about faith vs. reason, tribalism is rearing its ugly but familiar head.

I salute you, applegrove, in your plea to overcome this base and basic movement, and will support open dialog among those with whom we disagree.

[applegrove]

4. TKS.

:hide:

[Ron Green]

5. Kick, because this is important.

:kick: