It's the fundies, stupid

[Mr_Spock]

The fundies are attacking our country


They don't respect the constitution, they don't respect separation of Church and State, they think their morals should be everybody's morals - even when their morals are appreciably immoral.

Why WONT non-fundamentalist Christians speak out more forcefully against these right-wing wack jobs? It's hard not to get annoyed when "so called" Christians feel it's more important to defend their religion than attack the people who would push us into fascism if they had their way. A person like me who isn't part of the mainstream Christian church but who tries to live by Jesus ideals is not conflicted, it's the people who are somewhere in-between and who can't see the "forest for the trees" as it were. The real "so called" Christians have a DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to fight these people even MORE than the average person - please do NOT defend the fundamentalist RW fascists by being passive.

Interesting - I was listening to Cat Stevens "Peace Train" as I typed this (yeah, the terrorist :eyes: )

Peace Train

by Cat Stevens

Now I've been happy lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun

Oh I've been smiling lately, dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be, some day it's going to come

Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again

Now I've been smiling lately, thinking about the good things to come
And I believe it could be, something good has begun

Oh peace train sounding louder
Glide on the peace train
Come on now peace train
Yes, peace train holy roller

Everyone jump upon the peace train
Come on now peace train

Get your bags together, go bring your good friends too
Cause it's getting nearer, it soon will be with you

Now come and join the living, it's not so far from you
And it's getting nearer, soon it will all be true

Now I've been crying lately, thinking about the world as it is
Why must we go on hating, why can't we live in bliss

Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
Oh peace train take this country, come take me home again

[ewagner]

1. I understand your frustration

I feel it too...but to be fair, I felt the same frustration after 9/11 when moderate Muslims refused to condemn the extremism of OBL...

is there something generic to religous fanatism that makes moderates afraid to speak out?

[Clark2008]

9. Huh? Moderate Muslims DID condemn the extremism

of Al-Qaeda, it just wasn't highly reporting in the corporate media (imagine that).
I know tons of Muslims - used to be married to one - and they ALL condemned it, their Emam's condemned, Muslims throughout NYC condemned it; however, you had to search REALLY hard in the media to find all these condemnations.

[Inland]

2. I think you might be surprised to find out

that many people speaking out forcefully, here and outside, are christians.

Some declare it, some don't. Some might find it easier to leave out the info rather than get a lecture on how they are more responsible than others to do something.

[Mr_Spock]

4. When there's a problem in baseball, you need baseball players to speak out

It's just the way it is - there is always a higher level of respect for someone who has "walked the talk" as it were. JMHO

[Inland]

15. You mean, MLB?

Where they all play for the same league, under the same set of rules (fuck the dh)? Where there's a big ass union, and a single commissioner?

Sure, for them. But you don't show up at the 16" game in Lincoln Park and start giving the beer bellies shit for not being higher profile and tell them to speak out against steroid use.

That's a better analogy.

[bryant69]

5. I think also this board isn't the best place to judge

If a fundamentalist slips through and gets off a few posts, you will see Christians slamming him right along with everybody else. But, on this board, such view points are not allowed (a decision I largely agree with). So you pretty much always see the opposite, as you say above.

In that way I think that this board somewhat distorts your ability to judge what DU Christians do. It looks like all we care about is slamming atheists - but you obviously aren't with us the rest of the week when we are in our various communities.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Lars39]

3. Here's a good description by Bouncy Ball of what it's like in fundyland

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2939462&mesg_id=2939462

[TWiley]

13. Now that is disgusting.

It would be horrible to live in such an area. I am plagued by several at work.

[Mr_Spock]

22. I could not survive amongst hypocritical idol worshiping Pharisees

such as that. I'd simply have to move - I know how it is in other places and I simply would not be able to handle that.

[TheFarseer]

6. It's hard to tell people

they should be less strong in their faith. It's easy for them to yell at the rest of us that we should be stronger in our faith or have some faith in the first place. Can't speak for other denominations, but the official position of the Catholic church is that a feeding tube is not extraordinary means of life support and that she should have stayed on the feeding tube. Some people think you have to agree wtih everything the church says. I take a more cafeteria plan approach and sometimes wonder if God would approve. I think he's an understanding guy though :)

[Mr_Spock]

8. "Less strong in their faith"? How 'bout - not attacking people

who don't agree with their position. That has little to do with faith and everything to do with outrageous and nearly illegal behavior. I'm not saying that you are supporting that - but you imply that we are helpless in being able to criticize them - I call bullshit on that.

[seabeyond]

19. i dont see them as being strong, but weak in faith

faith, you are not battling for, you are not searching, you are not praying, you are not looking outside. faith, it is. i see the fundamentalist very much afraid and weak in faith. i see it not truly knowing the power in jesus's words that they have to fight and protect so

i am not seeing them being strong in, i am seeing them being weak. faith, there would be no battle. you wouldnt be afraid of the gays and liberals and diversity

[Bryn]

7. Austrailians Say U.S.'s Foreign Policy a Big Threat Like

Islamic Fundamentalism on TV News this morning. I didn't catch it all. I will try to find a link later.

[Tansy_Gold]

10. "Zealotry and its victims"

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/27/Columns/Zealotry_and_its_vict.shtml


Zealotry and its victims
By ROBYN E. BLUMNER, Times Perspective Columnist
Published March 27, 2005

<snips, with emphasis added>

In his book The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason, author and neuroscientist Sam Harris says it is time we stop tiptoeing around religious zealots - of any faith or denomination - and start challenging their implausible world view.

. . .

Harris is particularly worried about the rise of militant Islam. But his call is that we stop insulating all religions from the credulity tests we would normally apply to other fields of inquiry, such as physics and history.

. . .

Harris says those who follow the strict dictates of their religion, such as the Osama bin Ladens and Christian Armageddonists of the world, take such passages literally and look forward to the elimination <added by TG: or silencing???> of nonbelievers.

He puts the blame for allowing the perpetuation of these ancient blood decrees on religious moderates. Those who reject the murderous exhortations from these holy books, but refuse to denounce those who accept every word as a direction from God, are giving fundamentalists a pass, according to Harris. "By failing to live by the letter of the texts, while tolerating the irrationality of those who do, religious moderates betray faith and reason equally," Harris writes.

Those people in the middle, who think it is inappropriate to challenge the religious certainty of others, have allowed our country to be hijacked by irrational forces. In poll after poll, a large majority of Americans say they would not want to be kept alive as Terri Schiavo has been. But the elected branches of government are beholden to a vocal fringe of religious extremists, such as Douglas Scott, president of Life Decisions International - an organization devoted to destroying Planned Parenthood - who has declared that end-of-life directives are irrelevant.

<end snips>

© Copyright 2003 St. Petersburg Times. All rights reserved

[msmcghee]

11. We have to become intolerant of intolerance.

The problem with most analyses of religion is that they treat religion as a "thing" that sits inside of (some) people's minds. Such analyses are futile.

The way to see this problem IMHO is to think of the contents of the human mind as a pyramid. At the bottom are millions of scattered bits of knowledge, like the times-tables or how to make a good fried rice. These are useful but have little emotional attachment. At the very top sit the one or two principles that are strongly attached to us emotionally and are so important that we organize our lives around them. All the other information in our minds sits below the pinnacle at various levels. And all that information must be emotionally compatible with the principles above them in the pyramid. The closer to the top it sits - the more it must fit and be compatible with the values at the pinnacle. That's why there are no fundies at DU - and why there are no Unitarians at FR.

That is what we call our worldview. We all have one. Any information we come across that doesn't fit with the principles at the top of our worldview will be opposed and rejected. If they fit however, we will eagerly add them as supporting glue to our worldview.

People in this forum tend to have principles like tolerance, fairness and openness for differing views at the top of our worldview. Those of us who are religious find religious beliefs that fit comfortably below those principles in their worldview - which means they are consistent with those principles. These are our liberal Christian friends here at DU. Their Christianity embraces tolerance, fairness and openness for differing views.

These are not the fundies. At the top of the fundies' worldview are values such as intolerance, support for male authority, hatred of ambiguity in personal expression or differentness from norms in people, etc. Their Christianity is (must be) compatible with those values. So, theirs is a jealous, vindictive, intolerant Christianity.

The reason that many here are mistrustful of all Christians is that even relatively tolerant religious memes can morph into more virulent forms and take over a person's worldview. Christianity and Islam are both, at heart, exclusionary world-dominating belief systems unless constantly kept in check by more powerful social forces. Christianity (and Islam and Zionism) can not be trusted to quietly remain part of a free and open society on its own. It will always seek to displace other social values with its own dogma. All it takes sometimes is an outside threat (like 9/11) for people who previously embraced tolerant religious memes to allow those memes to morph into their more dangerous and virulent cousins and take over their worldview.

Just from reading about western civilization people can see that even the less virulent forms of Christianity can morph and become part of the Crusade. That's what has happened repeatedly to cause the periodic Reformations we have endured - all of them visiting horrible levels of death, torture and cruelty on innocent humans. So, at times like this, anyone who reads history and is not a fundie can't help but see danger in even the more benevolent forms of Christianity - especially when they refuse to engage their toxic cousins in debate over legitimacy.

IMO, it comes down to the values you put at the top of your worldview pyramid. Liberal values are not warrior values - they are by nature tolerant and forgiving and wanting-to-just-get-along-so-everybody-can-be-happy values. We'd even prefer to get along with the fundies instead of fight with them. Ours are weak values (because we generally see conflict as bad). These gentle values are laughed at by the crusading warriors on the right who are out to destroy them (and us). Although our instinct is to include theirs - our worldview can not fit into theirs at any place in their pyramid.

The fundies are on the march carrying their banners in the wind. They now control all branches of our government - a government that was becoming ever more tolerant and open and inclusive - and have already turned back many of those hard fought gains. We are right to feel very threatened. It is time to stop tolerating intolerance.

It is up to liberal Christians to take up their own banner and fight for their liberal Christian values against the religious right - just as we secular liberals fight against the neo-cons. It is not a battle they, or we, can sit out. It is up to liberal Christians to make damned sure no-one in this society can mistake them for fundies or fails to understand the differences between them in terms of the values at the top of their worldview pyramids.

If they don't do that they will see their own values trampled into the mud - and ours with them.

[Inland]

16. I can see the wisdom in this.

Although I would add that everything can be hijacked, or morph, into something bad, if only because worldviews are held by humans, not books.

The patriotism that makes me want to help a stranger in Omaha can be twisted to make me want to kill a stranger in Bagdad.

Even tolerance and fairness can become a amoral acceptance of evil, hence the need to remember the point of tolerance and fairness.

[Mr_Spock]

17. That's an excellent summary of our condition

You have expressed the "full thought" of what I was alluding to in my original post. I so agree with the argument that this is not a battle the liberal Christians can afford to sit out. Excellent post :D

[seabeyond]

20. intolerant of intolerance.

that is just a universal no no. created battle a fight, people hunker down and their is no change

whereas if you surrender to intolerance, and approach it in love, then there is opportunity to shed lite on. bring it to a stillness where htere is no battle. where it is in love,

my biggest challenge was being intolerant of intolerance. why i swear i was put in the panhandle of texas. understanding my own challenge in this and surrendering to, i have been able to get a lot more accomplished communicating with people

[TWiley]

12. I support the "Interfaith Alliance" because of your point.

Fundies are attacking our country, and "Christians" are not opposing them. Therefore it is logical to assume that they agree.

The only vocal Christian outfit that I have found which actively opposes the fundamentalists is the Interfaith Alliance. I became a member last fall, and I continue to contribute. Their message is among the most important and timely.

Another one is Soujourners, but I do not know much about them.

[msmcghee]

14. How about a link? n/t

[TWiley]

24. Link to the Interfaith Alliance

They came to my attention after I recieved a scathing letter from Walter Cronkite condemning the role of religion in its support of the bushtapo. The letter started with: "For 30 years as a News Journalist, I had to keep my opinions to myself". "Today, I can keep silent no longer".

Here are a couple links below

Home - Interfaith AllianceThe Interfaith Alliance describes itself as "the faith-based voice countering the radical right and promoting the positive role of religion."
www.interfaithalliance.org/ - 20k - Mar 27, 2005

Try this link if the one above one does not work:
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

[Mr_Spock]

18. ""Christians" are not opposing them, therefore it is logical to assume..."

that they agree." That is such a critical point to me - I'm glad that you see it that way as well. I'm also interested in more information WRT the Interfaith Alliance you described...

The good Christians must unite against the corrupt manipulative ones!

[TWiley]

25. A link to the Interfaith Alliance

They came to my attention after I recieved a scathing letter from Walter Cronkite condemning the role of religion in its support of the bushtapo. The letter started with: "For 30 years as a News Journalist, I had to keep my opinions to myself". "Today, I can keep silent no longer".

Here are a couple links below

Home - Interfaith AllianceThe Interfaith Alliance describes itself as "the faith-based voice countering the radical right and promoting the positive role of religion."
www.interfaithalliance.org/ - 20k - Mar 27, 2005

Try this link if the one above one does not work:
http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

[Mr_Spock]

26. Thanks

I'll check that out...

[seabeyond]

21. i am not a church goer either, i dont like people, i dont like dogma

i dont like rules. but i am a christian. how i see it, if every person that feels strongly about their christianity, in love and not hate went to their minister and told them the concerns of christianity immersed in hate and how it is felt christianity is walking away from the teachings of christ, it would certainly leave an impression with the higher ups who decide the tone of sermons and what they do with their flock. religion is really about the people, and the churches will accommodate

[Mr_Spock]

23. Good idea! Christians - go complain to your minister, priest, nun...

anyone who will listen. These are the leaders of your church - let them know how you feel about "Christianity immersed in hate".

Go, change thing at the grass root level - go now!