Holocaust deniers, what do you think of them?

[Hamlette]

I just finished reading History on Trial about the libel suit brought by David Irving against Debra Lipstadt. Lipstadt accused Irving of being a honocaust denier and he sued her. She won, its a great read.

In the afterword Alan Dershowitz says we should fight all holocaust deniers (I agree) and quotes Chomsky as seeming to support deniers.

I'm of the opinion that holocaust denial is antisemetic and I'd never heard this about Chomsky before. Are we to overlook it or does it not trouble any of you?

(Sort of like Nader supporting the parents in the circus in Florida. Hill any of his supporters be affected by that?)

How do you deal with a "hero" who holds repugnant views?

[roguevalley]

1. they are scum, no matter what else they may offer.

[Skittles]

2. they are sick, hateful people

disgusting

[quinnox]

3. about the same that I think of atheists

sorry, it's a joke!

[jonnyblitz]

20. I doubt you are joking.

[quinnox]

23. it was a joke, albeit subtle

it was a reference to this poster's other current thread which is about atheists, I am just reinforcing his belief but in a humorous way, lol

Well, it made me laugh anyway

[Az]

4. I think belief is a powerful thing

Having dealt with these people I can atest that they are convinced in an absolute sense of their position. They have worked themself up into a position that they cannot back down from. They have too much of their identity invested in their beliefs.

[Nevernose]

5. Chomsky, IMO, walks a fine line between making sense & delusional ranting

I still read his books and articles, but, much like Howard Zinn, I take it w/ a grain of salt. I'd be interested to know what the exact quote was.

And yes, from what I've seen, read, and know from personal experiences with of holocaust deniers, it's usually (but not necessarily always) tied up in anti-Semitism.

[K-W]

15. delusional ranting?

Ive read alot of chomsky and zinn and read only well documented facts and reasoned arguments and discussion.

What dellusions exactly?

[Nevernose]

32. Both of those guys have an agenda

And it's usually an agenda I support. I am, however, naturally suspicious of anyone selling an agenda. Both authors have a tendency to only present some of the facts and present them in a certain way (not that's there's anything inherently wrong with this, as that's what making an argument's all about). I'm just not the type of person to believe wholeheartedly in everything someone says, even those whom I admire.

In my criticism of Chomsky (and Zinn), I was guilty of hyperbole. However, Chomsky's writing towards Israel/Palestine, for example, seems filled with what I could best describe as vitriol. I've long suspected the man of harboring some kind of anti-Semitic feelings, though of course he's never written anything of the sort. When it comes to the question of Israel and Palestine, he's extremely one-sided, and I've never been sure if Chomsky is unwilling or unable to consider the other view at all. That doesn't make him a bad man or devalue the rest of his writing (Churchill, e.g., was a notorious anti-Semite), but it does mean that his arguments on that particular situation are to be taken with a grain of salt.

How does one define or defend their gut-feeling? I don't know.

[K-W]

45. What agenda?

Do you have any evidence of this Agenda?

I was under the impression both were fairly content to be well published academics.

Or are you referring to thier ideas as an agenda? In which case, that is just propaganda.

Being skeptical doesnt mean assuming everyone has an agenda and is lying to you, that is cynism, not skepticism.

Well I can only tell you that your readings of Chomsky are horribly flawed. He isnt anti-semetic in the slightest. He has vitriol because Isreal is a rogue nation with a horrible human right's record and has been used since its inception as a staging ground for illegal and immoral US foriegn policy and that continues to be the case. They are openly in violation of UN resolutions, they have WMD's, they are occupying thier neighbors and demanding concessions if they are too leave, which all indications say they simply aren't willing to do.

Taking issue with the policies of Isreal or even finding them repugnant is not anti-semitism. And suggesting that they are is to be extremely intellecutally dishonest.

[Just Me]

67. Social and economic justice agenda,...which is "enemy" to,...

,...corporatocracy.

Chomsky and Zinn passionately believe in equal human worth and potential. Hence, they are targeted,...constantly.

[K-W]

71. hmm, I guess I dont see that as an agenda

I see it more as morality and ethics.

But indeed they are targetted heavily and constantly to create a stigma so everyone everwhere will always say "I dont really like/believe/know about/etc Chomsky, but..."

[Just Me]

88. Personally, I'd rather have "an agenda" serving human interests,...

,...than "an agenda" of imposing my will for my narrow self-interest (to hell with anyone else).

Morality and ethics means taking responsibility for how you influence this world,...not how you gain influence for yourself,...YES?

The moral/ethical position is that which claims personal responsibility for how you impact/influence/infect/advance/heal all those around you.

There is NOTHING wrong with an agenda to advance humanity, rather than usurp human resources for your pleasure.

[Nevernose]

83. I wasn't suggesting that "taking issues w/ Israeli policies" is

I wasn't suggesting that "taking issues w/ Israeli policies" is anti-Semitic. There are, indeed, many things to take them to task for, and disagreeing with Israeli policy is not necessarrily anti-Semitism.

However, it would seem to me that few things Israel has done were in a vacuum. Where was the outrage when Jordan occupied the West Bank? Taking the Golan Heights was illegal, certainly, but there were men with rockets firing into urban centers. Palestinians blow up buses and shopping malls, while Israelis bulldoze the family homes and build walls through ancestral farms. Five wars in five decades.

It seems to me to be painfully obvious that the situation is not so black and white as Chomsky would lead one to believe, yet he presents it in such a manner. Few people would argue that Noam Chomsky is anything short of brilliant, which is why I find it so odd that he presents the I/P situation in such simplistic black and white views.

Also, Chomsky and Zinn both have an agenda, one which Faux news might call a "radical left-wing" agenda. That's okay with me, not only because I share largely the same agenda, but because that's just what people do. We all have our own paradigms that we seek to promote and propagate, and while nine times out of ten I find myself agreeing with them, they're not holy men and their words are not scripture.

[K-W]

91. You are massively distorting Chomsky.

Chomsky doesnt argue any black and white situations, that is a strawman. You either havent read or didnt understand him.

In fact he mainly addresses Isreal because it is so involved in US policy, which should be a pretty clear indication he isn't looking at it in a vacuum.

There is no radical left wing agenda, that is a propaganda invention of the right. The radical left has basically the same agenda as the rest of the left. And a paradigm is not an agenda. You are misusing the word agenda and rendering it meaningless. An agenda is a plan. A hidden agenda (what we generally mean by agenda) is a hidden plan. That is why we dont like hidden agenda's, it means we dont know what the people are trying to do and cannot trust them. Now please present to me the devious agenda of Noam Chomsky and/or Howard Zinn.

[manic expression]

94. Please...

you're really off the mark with this one. Hating Israel (even if Chomsky really "hates" Israel) is NOT having any type of anti-Semitic beliefs at all.

There is MUCH less cause for outrage over Jordan's occupation because they did not cleanse Palestinians from their homeland, while cruelly and unjustly building settlements to steal that land (I believe they call it ethnic cleansing, something the Nazis were fond of). The Germans justified their aggressive actions because, after all, those people burned down the Reichstag, and the fatherland must be protected.

He's not pushing an agenda, he's telling the truth.

[Hamlette]

18. Dershowitz says, of Chomsky:

"Chomsky has, in defending )Norman Finkelstein's) absurd view that there are no 'anti-Semitic implicants in denial of the existence of gas chambers, or even denial of the Holocaust.' added the following pregnant words; 'whether one believes (the Holocaust) took place or not.' And he has praised Robert Faurisson, a hard-cord Holocaust denier, as a sholar whose 'findings' that the Holocaust did not occur were 'based on extensive historical research'."

I think Holocaust denial is always anti-Semitic, I guess Chomsky doesn't?

[K-W]

26. When Allen Dershowitz puts words in his mouth,

I guess not. Look at that quote, cant you see Chomsky's words spliced with Dershowitz's spin?

Now I cant comment on what Chomsky said without seeing a clean quote with context.

But as a point of logic, one could very well disbelieve the historical fact of the holocaust or portions of the holocaust without being neccessarily anti-semetic. Chomsky doesnt tip-toe around issues, that doesnt give people liscense to twist his words.

But I know for a fact that Noam Chomsky believes in the Holocaust and despises anti-semitism because he references both topics in his work.

[TrustingDog]

31. we are lied to continously, that's a fact. Let's work with that one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. That's foolish...

Saying holocaust denial and anti-semitism can be mutually exclusive makes as much sense as saying slavery was a beign experience for black Americans and being a racist are mutually exclusive...


And yes there are faux scholars who argue that the American version of slavery was a relatively benign institution....

[megatherium]

36. those scholars must have written the school books I had when I was

a fifth grader in 1967 in Virginia. No kidding: they said that by and large most slaves were content. (This was in Falls Church, 7 miles from DC.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Wow...

Thirteen years after Brown....


I went to public school in rural/urban Central Florida in the 70's... Thank God I wasn't exposed to that... By that time though schools and teaching staffs were integrated...

[megatherium]

72. I was in the public school system.

I think those textbooks were kind of old. They hadn't replaced them yet.

[K-W]

38. You are simply wrong.

One could disagree with the history without necessarily being anti-Semitic, and your thinking is clearly warped if you cant see that.

Now if you are simply expressing skepticism that anyone who isn't an anti-Semite would find reason to doubt the holocaust or details of it, fine, but it doesn't seem Chomsky disagrees with you, he just isn't willing to make the assumption, as you have, that it is impossible for someone who isn't anti-Semitic to doubt the historical veracity of the holocaust.

I want you to remember that on every issue in academia there are always people with minority opinions, even things generally considered fact and generally they have nothing to do with any race or ethnicity. So it isn't really that irrational to suggest that someone could take such a position historically without ever being or intending anti-Semitism.

But I dint know the details. All I know is that Chomsky is not a Holocaust denier, is an ardent proponent of human rights and strongly disapproves of anti-semitism... as if one out of context quote is enough to level such a heavy charge in the first place. My guess is that Mr. Dershowitz never bothered to give Mr. Chomsky the benefit of the doubt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

125. I See You Didn't Challenge The Second Part Of My Assertion

Can one credibly say the American version of slavery was a benign institution and not be labelled a racist?

And if your answer is no then I would suggest that is no different than one denying the existence of the holocaust can not escape being labelled an anti-semite...

I never said Noam Chomsky was a holocaust denier... I specifically said he wasn't in this thread...


I didn't appreciate the "warped" comment but if you want to engage me in a game of snaps it's going to be a long evening...

[K-W]

128. If you are going to use false logic, I am going to call you out.

If that means "snaps" to you, so be it.

I didnt challenge your second assertation because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything. It is an utterly false comparison. Charecterizing the institution of slavery as anything isnt an issue of historical fact, it is a value judgement on slavery. And a value judgement that slavery is benign fits the definition of racism to a t. Chomsky is referring to disagreements over matters of fact. And he isnt defending it, simply saying that people could come to the false conclusion that part or all of the holocaust story is a lie without neccessarily being anti semetic, which is obviously true.

Chomsky's correct point is that one could take issue with one, some, many, or even all historical claims about the holocaust without being anti-semitic. This is very very simple reasoning, it really should be apparent. Obviously such claims should be treated skptically, but lots of people deny genocides throughout history for non racist reasons.

Chomsky uses the example of someone without a strong knowledge of history who hears about the holocaust and doesnt believe it because it seems to extreme to be real. This individual would be doubting the existance of the holocaust with absolutely nor relation to anti-semitism. It simply is possible. You really cant argue that.

Edit: In fact Chomsky's main point in what ive read about this issue, is that people lie about all genocides for political/financial/self interested reasons, and we shouldnt ignore that some people could be motivated to lie about this genocide for political/financial/sefl interested reasons just because alot of holocaust deniers are anti semites who believe in an insane jewish conspiricy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. I'm Confused...

Was it Orwell who said "some ideas are so bizzare only an inellectual can believe them"...

It's theoretically possible to deny the holocaust out of ignorance and not malice but that's such a hypertechical argument it borders on sophistry....

I will give you some quotes and you tell me if this fella is an anti-semite or ignoramus or both...

"Let's put it this way. I question whether 6 million Jews actually died in Nazi death camps. There are two major sources for Holocaust stories. One is the Nuremburg war-crimes trial, which has been shown by all honest historians to be a farce of justice. Another source is the great body of literature and media work, and at least 90% of that material is from biased Jewish sources."


"Did you ever notice how many survivors they have? Did you ever notice that? Everybody – every time you turn around, 15,000 survivors meet here, 400 survivors convention there. I mean, did you ever notice? Nazis sure were inefficient, weren't they? Boy, boy, boy! ...You almost have no survivors that ever say they saw a gas chamber or saw the workings of a gas chamber...they'll say these preposterous stories that anybody can check out to be a lie, an absolute lie."

[K-W]

136. Hypertechnical?

What is hypertechnical about the fact that anti-semitism and questioning/denying the holocuast are not mutually inclusive.

That is some of the most basic reasoning that exists, I struggle to see where I am getting hypertechnical.

And clearly you just arent understanding me. I am not arguing that all holocaust deniers are not anti semetic, so you can give me anti semetic quotes all night, it doesnt relate to my, or Chomsky's point.

[K-W]

138. Read Chomsky's own words on the subject.

http://www.chomsky.info/letters/1989----.htm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

144. I Never Accused Noam Chomsky Of Being Anti-Semitic Or

Being A Holocaust Denier...


The reason I said your argument is hypertechinal or bordering on sophistry is because it almost only exists as a theoretical possibility...

Here's my point...

Are all holocaust deniers anti-semites?

No

Is it more likely than not that a holocaust denier is also an anti-semite?

Yes

[DemocratSinceBirth]

152. I Thought About It Overnight

Anti-semitism and holocaust denial are so inextricably entwined that it is nearly impossible to disentangle them...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

155. Actually many anti-Semites DO believe the Holocaust happened as reported

Only they think it's a good thing. :scared:

[lenidog]

27. It was actually more than an entire quote

he actually wrote the foreword for the book and because of that gave it far more legitimacy that it should have ever had.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nevernose]

35. I make take Chomsky w/ a grain of salt...

But I ain't eatin' anywhere near the PNAC restaraunt.

[TrustingDog]

39. chomsky doesn't rule your ass. the PNACers do.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. What's The Nexus Between PNAC and Holocaust Denial?

eom

[TrustingDog]

56. dual citisenship. check it out.

[AlienGirl]

60. Are you suggesting something?

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. Which PNAC Members Have Dual Citizenships?

eom

[AlienGirl]

69. Maybe the poster thinks they're secretly Canadians?

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlienGirl]

77. All Canadians? Whaddaya know...

[TrustingDog]

81. I wasn't aware of that...

[bin.dare]

100. #77 says: "i'm only kiiidddiiinnng" n/t

[AlienGirl]

101. Vs. Franken, Levin, and Feingold in a Steel-Cage Jew Match! Only on PPV!

[TrustingDog]

109. yes, of course all Jews are horrible people. ::groan::

I'm not biting, sorry.

[K-W]

111. I think he was just joking.

Off the three names.

[K-W]

57. The Christian right converts to PNAC?

the Christian right has many anti-semitic streaks and is, for the time being, pushing the neocon agenda.

[Just Me]

76. ROTFLMAO!!

Seriously, we DO have to place this in the context of a handful of arrogant, self-empowering assholes who seek to impose their "holier than ALL" upon every human being!!!

Power-mongers have "power over others" as their primary aim of destruction.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Holocaust Deniers Suck

but they should be free to deny it all they want...


I also don't think opposing the removal of Terri Schiavo's tube (Nader) rises to the level of calumny that is holocaust denial...


Also, I don't think Chomsky is a holocaust denier... He defended a person's right to participate in that activity...

If that is correct it is unwise...

[adwon]

7. On Chomsky

He defended a French academic who minimized the Holocaust. He didn't defend him on the grounds of being right, but that free speech means all speech.

I personally dislike Chomsky but I can't help but admire someone who actually puts their money where their mouth is when it comes to defending basic freedoms.

The Chomsky page on wikipedia has this in detail.

[jonnyblitz]

17. David Horowitz spreads this rumour around about Chomsky

and I would take anything that Alan Dershowitz says with a grain of salt. He doesn't take kindly to anybody that dare criticize Israel and Chomsky has a tendency to do that.

[MisterP]

19. oh, Mr. Torture is Fun

[adwon]

44. Please read what I wrote

The incident in question is well-known. I don't much care what Horowitz has to say because I have no love for Maoists turned Metternichs. Chomsky defended a French critic of the Holocaust on the basis of free speech.

If you were referring to my comment about disliking Chomsky, this incident had nothing to do with it. This defense of free speech actually heightened my respect for the man.

[megatherium]

46. I used to read Horowitz' web site. But he ran an article from vdare.com

prefaced with the disclaimer that while he doesn't endorse the racist views of that group, the present article is very interesting. Sure, sure... I went to vdare.com and found an article about how Hispanics are damaging this country because their culture is not creative. Even freepers stay away from this crap.

Lately, Horowitz has been showing a picture of Al Franken with the word RACIST over it. He explains that he has no proof that Franken is racist, but this is just in retaliation for Franken referring to Horowitz in passing in his book as a racist.

[K-W]

47. btw, Franken can evidentially defend his accusation. EOM

[megatherium]

70. I have no doubt. / nt

[K-W]

62. Chomsky has a response on his website to the accusation:

http://www.chomsky.info/letters/1989----.htm

[K-W]

63. ignore double post

bleh

[Maccagirl]

8. Deniers are sick, delusional people

Who do they think all those people in those documentary films were-stunt doubles? My uncle was a US soldier who liberated one of the camps and to his dying day he couldn't bring himself to talk about it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. They're sick, delusional people.

:argh::puke:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

10. Seek out a site called...

Nizkor. This is a Canadian site that is run by a very courageous fellow and his associates. For many years now, they have been at the sharp point of the fight against the deniers and have done a wonderful job of compiling the truth about them and countering them at every turn.

[JAbuchan08]

11. I dont "think" anything of them although I do have this visceral feeling

some might call it "hate."

[K-W]

12. That is a vicious lie.

Wanna show us that magical quote where Chomsky expresses a view he doesnt hold?

[tubbacheez]

13. "How do you deal with a "hero" who holds repugnant views?"

Recognize your hero is human.



In the Information Age, we get to find out much more about our would-be "heroes" than ever before. We get to see a much more fleshed out picture of them. So the odds of finding some points of disagreement are rising.


I think this is a good thing. The time for simple categorizations of people into "good guys" and "bad guys" is getting old.

Just like family members, even our heroes do things or hold views we ourselves cannot, yet we cannot deny the things that we do admire without denying part of ourselves.






As for the Holocaust denial, I seem to recall reading that there are several competing "alternative" theories about it. It would take a lot more research to comment intelligently on them.

But I will go on record here as taking the scientific view of history, which I learned from a history professor I especially liked.

We cannot know exactly what happened if we weren't there. We each individually must rely on indirect evidence. Therefore, history is the study of WHAT WE THINK HAPPENED.

And like any other scientific discipline, our understanding can evolve with further study and new evidence.

I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the future our descriptions of the Holocaust differ from the ones commonly used today.


That said, I would think anyone who would deny it outright has a long road to travel in terms of arguing their point.

[K-W]

16. Or in this case,

recognize that people distort the words and ideas of Noam Chomsky because he's a polarizing figure.

Im not saying hes a god or anything, but he certainly isnt a holocaust denier, a fact that anyone whos honestly read his works would know.

[tubbacheez]

24. Ah, yes. Always consider the source.

So obvious, I forgot to mention it. Thanks for the good catch!

[XemaSab]

41. Many people who were there

on both sides have come out and said that the holocaust happened.

I think the only issue open to debate is how many people were killed. I've heard 3 million, I've heard 15 million. Either way, that's a LOT of people.

A few years ago I was sitting on a park bench and a lady came up and sat next to me, and I saw she had a number tattooed on her arm. I didn't say anything to her, but I looked at that number and I was completely horrified.

[lenidog]

58. When I was a little kid an older friend of my mom's

who used to babysit me had a tatoo on her arm. She loved to babysit the neighborhood kids because she couldn't have kids herself after surviving the camps.


The accepted figure for the Holocaust is 6 million Jews followed by 5.5 million Gypsies, Poles, Russians, Communists, mentally handicapped, etc.

[WillowTree]

14. My first college roommate...

....turned out to be a holocaust denier. In response to that, in addition to a whole slew of other charming opinions and personality traits, I moved out and never looked back.

I ran across her a few years ago. Nothing's changed. Don't need people like that in my life.

[K-W]

21. Scary story re: Denial in mainstream America.

In our (mostly white middle+ class)college cafeteria a friend of mine thought it would be funny to go up to a table of girls and say he was a holacuast denier. Whether that is funny or not aside he was amazed when they responded by saying they had heard something about that and were curious and interested to learn about it.

These are supposedly very well educated students at a fairly prestigious private university.

[lenidog]

22. Let me try and do this without cursing and getting this post deleted

They are scum pure and simple and now more than ever it is essential to combat them for the simple reason that the most powerful weapon we have against them is disappearing, the people who were actually there. The threat of Holocaust deniers is now greater than ever and growing because the American people themselves are incredibly gullible when someone tells the a half truth and incredibly stupid when it comes to history. Nothing is more powerful than a person who actually survived Hitler's horrors and lived to tell the tale. When you can see their emotion when they tell the tale and see their faces you cannot if you are human believe they are not telling the truth. But soon they will all be gone and nothing will remain but words on a page which though powerful do not carry the same weight as those who spoke them. So it behooves us to combat this scum before they have planted the seeds of doubt in too many minds and another great tragedy happens. David Irving is possibly the worst of them all. He is a historian by trade and a very talented one at that. He knows all the tricks of his trade and knows how to persuade people and to make his half-truths seem like the total truth by wrapping it up in academia. He of all of them at the moment is the one that could sway the most possible people and I am glad that Lipstadt won against him.

[lastknowngood]

25. I Deny they have brains

n/t

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlienGirl]

65. Are you suggesting that Jews control the media?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. If not, please explain the "political feeding tube" you are talking about--if by it you don't mean, "Jewish interests" what *do* you mean?

Tucker

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. How Did It Happen ?

eom

[AlienGirl]

53. Deniers usually say there were no gas chambers

They say the deaths were all due to "natural causes" and say there was no systematic program to exterminate Jews, Gypsies, gay people, disabled people, and other groups. They label all eyewitnesses as unreliable, liars, or coerced into making statements. Some of them even believe all those people just disappeared--moved to Russia or elswehere after the war and never contacted their family members to let them know they were still alive.

David Irving calls Jews "the traditional enemies of free speech." It's hard for me to imagine that by saying so, he doesn't intend anything anti-semitic. Wait, make that, *impossible* for me to imagine.

Tucker

[DaveinMD]

43. I would if I could

do you think the documentary film of the death camps was fake. Your post makes me sick.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Whether Bush Is A Christian Is Really A Metaphysical Question

and metaphysical questions do not easily lend themselves to verification or rejection...



The death of eleven million people, six million of them Jews can either be independently verified or not....

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlienGirl]

68. All I'm asking is, Who do you think is "shoving"?

[TrustingDog]

86. the Shovers... the mess media... do I have to tell you this?

[AlienGirl]

87. Are you suggesting that Jews control the media?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[AlienGirl]

107. http://www.internationaljewishconspiracy.com

[TrustingDog]

110. at what number does Iraq become a Holocaust?

just curious.

[AlienGirl]

112. When the US decides to exterminate all Iraqis

Until then, it's a mass-murder.

Tucker

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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[AlienGirl]

117. Re-read, please

The *intent* is the important part.

Tucker

[K-W]

115. You are thinking of Genocide.

Holocaust refers to, in this case, a cataclysmic destruction and loss of life.

But the word isnt quantifiably defined in this sense, it is subjective, so it is informative to see where we do use the term and where we don't. It is also used to just mean the Nazi murders obviously.

[AlienGirl]

118. I would say genocide is integral to calling it a Holocaust

[K-W]

122. You would be wrong. Well... ,mostly wrong.

One of the two dictionaries I checked listed genocide as an "especially". It is definately not integral to the label Holocaust.


www.dictionary.com
hol·o·caust Audio pronunciation of "holocaust" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hl-kôst, hl-)
n.

1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2.
1. Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: “Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe” (Emanuel Litvinoff).
2. A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust” (Rod Nordland).
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.


www.m-w.com

Main Entry: ho·lo·caust
Pronunciation: 'hO-l&-"kost, 'hä- also -"käst or 'ho-l&-kost
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French holocauste, from Late Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos burnt whole, from hol- + kaustos burnt, from kaiein to burn -- more at CAUSTIC
1 : a sacrifice consumed by fire
2 : a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire <a nuclear holocaust>
3 a often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II -- usually used with the b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : GENOCIDE

[TrustingDog]

123. has there been a special word invented for the Dresden deaths?

or the Nagasaki/Hiroshima killed?

can they too get 1/6th or so of a word to describe their suffering?

[AlienGirl]

124. How does that relate?

Do you really think that some secret Jewish interests have been meeting in smoke-filled rooms, conspiring to prevent people from hearing about those instances of mass-murder? :eyes:

Tucker

[TrustingDog]

126. huh?

take that 'Jewish' word away, it clouds all discussion. Some people Use religion, surprise, surprise. never been done before, nope. :P As I said before, nothing that comes out of that sausage grinder shit hole Bush has, is true Christian. But he'll use it. Do You Get It?

[AlienGirl]

127. Huh? yourself; how does it relate?

[TrustingDog]

131. Bush has been bashed to a pulp here for his unchristian acts...

all the while, he claims he the next slice of bread near Jesus, hold the mayo. he's a user, they're all users. the louder the message, the more suspect one should be.

[DaveinMD]

73. I can tell you

that my relatives really did die in death camps. Those photos are not fake. 6 million Jews and millions of others did die. It is insulting to their memories to even insinuate it could be fake. I can't believe I'm even talking to you about this.

[TrustingDog]

132. I didn't say it was fake, friend.

[DaveinMD]

135. that was the tone

the tone was certainly that thought it was partially staged. It wasn't.

[TrustingDog]

140. I know my tone, you do not.

[DaveinMD]

142. you implied

the historical interpration of the holocaust was untrue. You made your bed of bigotry. You have to lie in it. I will not have you demean all those who lost their lives without speaking out.

[TrustingDog]

145. I implied that truth is hard to find anywhere

and i do not believe everything that is loudest in my ear is most truthful. that is all.

[DaveinMD]

150. there is absolute evidence

from a variety of sources of what happened. If you can't see that, I will loudly call you an anti-semite because that is what you are.

[LibraLiz1973]

98. That is reprehensible. Doubting the stories of millions of tortured jews

is, to me, sickening.
Do you also doubt the torture that slaves received? Because the denier I knew also didn't believe slavery was that rough.

[lenidog]

48. I couldn't quite phrase this right so bear with me

It would depend on how you view denial. The most common of the Deniers usually say that six million Jews never died in the concentration camps. They usually say that 250,000 died and that was near the end of the war and not really the Germans fault because they died of disease and starvation cause by the Allied bombing of the German transportation network. They also usually say that there was NO campaign to wipe out the Jews and no network of mechanisms (gas chambers) to do so. More or less they claim that the Jews were in internment camps and were there for their own protection. They usually try and back up this claim by saying that their is no order from Hitler, its impossible for the gas chambers to have worked or they didn't exist etc. Now some of the fringe in their numbers totally deny it. Basically they say it is a mass hoax that was forced upon Germany after the war by the Allies and the secret Jewish cabal that controls them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. The Best Measure Is The Number Of Jews In Pre WW2 Europe

And Post WW2 Europe controlling for the realatively few who escaped to Palestine and the United States...

[LibraLiz1973]

96. Don't doubt Trusting. I knew a denier.

He really, really believed that the Holocaust was a lie. Said that maybe 1,000 jews had been killed- but killed for "crimes".Some people are just GONE.

[candle_bright]

33. Holocaust deniers are sick

I would encourage any such people to visit a Holocaust Museum, and spend the whole day there. That's just a start. Then talk to Holocaust survivors, before they are all gone.

If Chomsky has taken this position, then screw him. I don't read all that much of his stuff, and as such I never knew this aspect.

[AlienGirl]

40. They make my head explode

:argh:

I am something of a history geek, because I think if you can recognize patterns that were precursors of prior events, you can interrupt those same patterns when they recur--or at least get the heck out of the way. So I studied 30's and 40's Germany for a while, and the BBS I used to ask a lot of my questions on was infested with Holocaust deniers.

I ended up too bugged by them to keep reading the site much.

Tucker

P.S. I read that book too, and it sounds like David Irving is a buttmunch.

[lenidog]

50. David Iriving strayed from being a serious historian

to wanting to be the biographer of a victorious Hitler.

[foreigncorrespondent]

49. No matter who they are...

..if they deny a part of history as ever taking place, then they are sick, pathetic induviduals, with no moral values what so ever.

[bin.dare]

55. Finkelstein should be taken seriously, not hysterically, ...

... about anti-semitism and the holocaust. here is a good commentary on Finkelstein's book:

http://www.counterpunch.org/green03192005.html

The Holocaust Industry Comes to the University of Illinois
By DAVID GREEN

In his 2000 book The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering, scholar and critic Norman Finkelstein convincingly argues three general points. First, since the 1967 war and Israel's military alliance with the United States, the Nazi holocaust-a historical event-has become the Holocaust, a narrow and ideologically-driven Zionist interpretation of that genocide that has been used to justify Israeli and American policies, and aggrandize Jewish-American elites in the halls of power. Second, and concurrently since 1967, a Holocaust literature has evolved apart from credible historical scholarship about the Nazi holocaust, the former which is without scholarly merit and is often fraudulent. Holocaust literature, most notably that of Elie Wiesel, has propagated specious notions of the "uniqueness" of the Holocaust and the eternal nature of anti-Semitism, both of which serve to silence criticism of Israel. Third, Finkelstein elaborated the evidence for a "double shakedown" during the late 1990s by which both survivors of the Nazi holocaust and European governments (primarily Switzerland) were exploited by Jewish organizations seeking exorbitant amounts of monetary compensation, while being held to standards far beyond those to which either the U.S. or Israel has been held in relation to the bank holdings of survivors.
...
(more)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. There Is So Much Wrong With That Thesis One Doesn't Know Where To Begin...

One does not establish the destruction of European Jewry and the eternal persecution of the Jew is not unique to criticise Israeli policy....

[bin.dare]

85. the article and the book are well written, maybe you ...

... also could try to be cogent in what you say. please.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Is This Cogent Enough...

To deny that the Holocaust was a unique event or that Jewish history is replete with persecution and pogroms is just silly....


The fact that a credentialed academic makes the argument gives it no more weight...

But if he impresses you I am glad...

[bin.dare]

104. cogent refers to rational argument, so no ...

... but lets you and i end it there. please and thanks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. My argument was rational

The opposite of unique is common...


Is it not?


If the persecution of the Jew and the war against them by the Nazis is not uniuqe then by definition it must be common..


Thanks for playing

[K-W]

120. It all depends on your context and perspective.

In the context of the entire history of humanity, unfortunately, it is common to see attempts at genocide, and even to see scarily effective attempts.

In the context of modern western history, it is very unique.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

129. The Holocaust And The Jewish Experience Is Unique....

The holocaust was the largest of pogroms against the Jews but not the first...

[K-W]

133. Well certainly, but unique is a relative word.

Yes they are certainly unique, the issue is whether they are significantly unique to warrent exceptional historical prominance.

I am not arguing they don't. I think the nature of the event and the facism surounding it makes it particularly saliant to our culture and western culture in general. But tat the moment the nazi holocaust is really the only genocide you would need to know to be culturally literate in America. The solution certainly isnt forgetting about it, it is very saliant to modern western culture, it is very important to art, literature, political/ethical/moral thought, etc. They just need to fill in the history on other tragedies of epic proportions so that people have the proper historical context on a very important part of human history, the part we all need to know to avoid future violence.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. If You Go Back To My First Quote...

All I said is it wasn't necessary to demonstrate the Holocaust wasn't unique or that Jewish suffering wasn't unique to criticize Israeli policy as Professor Finkelstein does...



The policies of the Israeli government should fall or stand on their inherent correctness not whether Jews have been persecuted for nearly six thousand years...

[K-W]

143. I think you missed Prof. Finkelstein's point.

Unfortunately I am not familiar enough with the work to say for sure, but I think he was making a different point with the holocaust uniqueness, one about the perceptions the Isreali state tries to encourage.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

146. He's Saying That Jews Use The Holocaust As A Cudgel Against

Criticism...

Maybe true... Maybe false...


My bone of contention and it'a big one is that one doesn't have to deny the uniqueness of the Holocaust to make that point...

[Walt Starr]

61. Anybody who is a holocaust denier is a fool, a liar, or a son of a bitch.

I could never ever consider a Holocaust denier to be a "hero".

[TrustingDog]

78. most are Holocaust questioners, not deniers.

imho. But when you question anything on this ultra sensitive topic, you become a denier. all or nothing.

[Walt Starr]

82. I think that the evidence is pretty clear

What is there to question about it?

[TrustingDog]

84. numbers for one thing, another...

why don't the Armenians get 1/100th the attention and museums? that was also a holocaust, amongst many

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. What Does The Persecution And Murder Of One And One Half

Million Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turks have to do with the Holocaust...

One doesn't obviate the other...

Both were acts of genocide writ large .....

[TrustingDog]

105. you'd think they'd get at least 1/6th the attention?

no?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. I See Where You're Going..

Slavery was an abomination...

The destruction of the American Indian was an abomination..


The persecution of the Kurds was an abomination...


Pol Pot's murder of 5,000,000 Cambodiams was an abomination


Mao's murder of 50, 000,000 Chinese was an abomination...

Stalin's murder of 20,000.000 Russians was an abomination...

None of these crimes diminish the others...

[AlienGirl]

119. What he's saying is the Jews have monopolized all the attention

probably through the Jewish-owned media.

Tucker

[DaveinMD]

151. oh my lord

I am ashamed to see the rampant anti-semitism here.

[mogster]

156. Even if there wasn't a single Jew left

The events still would have carried weight and momentum in our history. To call the momentum 'Jew-driven' is a stiff overstatement, because the events of the Holocaust is rooted deeply in our human records, and has become the turning point of the modern world. Please don't reduce this to a number count and comparison of death toll.

It is not about NUMBERS; it is about the METHODICAL and INDUSTRIALIZED extermination of a group of people living in our midst, done with as much afterthought and regret as you would have had when exterminating rodents or killing a fly.

It was about PROCESSING people from living human beings to material ready for recycling; glasses, gold teeth, clothes, hair--all spared and packaged for reuse while the original owner was BURNING to ashes because he was OF NO VALUE.

It was about the slash of the axe of fascism; which side are you on--good or bad? Quisling or Jøssing? Can you tolerate people being dragged away in the middle of the night or will you put down the foot and accept personal risk to defend your neighbour?
It was the formative moment of modern Man; after 2000 years of progroms and persecution it finally DAWNED on him that this was TOO MUCH to face and then just carry on as before.

OK. Rant over.
Sorry, this wasn't really an answer to your post, AlienGirl :-)

[TrustingDog]

121. our history is packed full of abominations.

we collectively suck, big time.

but in all that list you have, none other has quite the knee jerk reactions than this one, The Holocaust. You'd think there'd be more attention paid to the American Indian holocaust...

odd, that.

[Blue_In_AK]

148. I so agree with that...

Absolutely what the American government did to the Native Americans was genocide -- carefully planned and executed, definitely not some innocent by-product of westward expansion.

ed - after reading the entire thread, I didn't mean to imply (if I did) that the near-extermination of the American Natives was somehow "more than" the slaughter of innocent Jews, etc. in the death camps. It's all horrible to contemplate, the inhumanity of man to man.

[everythingsxen]

149. This has been an... "interesting" thread to read...

Especially your comments Trusting.

I'd like to go over some of the things you said.

"but in all that list you have, none other has quite the knee jerk reactions than this one, The Holocaust. You'd think there'd be more attention paid to the American Indian holocaust... "

Well, as an American, I can tell you I was brainwashed very well in school and the fact that we stole the native lands and raped their civilization is pretty much glossed over and barely covered. However, that isn't really what we are talking about here, we were talking about the Nazi holocaust.

"I doubt very much that the 'deniers' say it didn't happen. I'm wondering if it happened exactly the way the Media tells us it did."

Why do you think they are called 'deniers'? What is it exactly that the big scary Jew-media tells you that you don't believe?

"and whether one has questions about the holocaust...is forbidden.

I just have great mistrust on what is shoved down our throats as truth and history, we have plenty of examples, don't we? It's been proven many times over, so why is this subject so beyond that? That's all I'm asking."

I mistrust history as well. However... I think enough Nazis came forward after the war and admitted to the Holocaust that it alone should be enough. So I guess you think they were tortured by the Israelis and so that evidence is fake.

What about all the pictures? Fake right?

The Wansee notes? Forgeries as well no doubt? Ja?

87. Are you suggesting that Jews control the media?

"in fact, they do, overwhelmingly."

Funny I thought Rupert Murdoch did, overwhelmingly.

"most are Holocaust questioners, not deniers."

If you say so. Every Holocaust questioner I have known is really a denier.

[Walt Starr]

93. I do not think the numbers are questionable

Sorry, I do not doubt the numbers. If anything, the numbers are conservative, IMO and were probably much higher.

As far as the Armenians go, yes that was a Holocaust.

[TrustingDog]

106. I doubt everything I'm told a gazillion times, I'm quirky that way.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

97. Problem is generalities...

What do you question? That their weren't gas chambers? You are free to visit them in various places in Europe now. Same with the camps, look to photographic evidence, eyewitness testimony of hundreds of THOUSANDS of survivors, look at the census number disparities from between WWI and the end of WW2, even accounting for the war, a lot of civilians, mostly Jews, disappeared without a trace. Did Aliens rescue them?

[mondo joe]

79. Same way I do about evolution deniers.

And a few other types of deniers.

[MrSlayer]

80. I think they are in denial of reality.

It's quite easy to prove that there was genocide going on. If they are willfully ignorant in the face of the facts then they simply have a hate filled agenda. It's silly and ridiculous to deny it happened.

[LibraLiz1973]

89. Pieces of Sh*t. That sums up what I think

[LibraLiz1973]

92. In addition, I'm not even Jewish but it INFURIATES me

People who say shit like that make me sick.
Same with homophobes & racists.
Get the F off the planet is pretty much my philosophy toward them

[UTUSN]

102. What *I* Think? Holocaust-deniars SUCK.. So Does NADIR n/t

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alarimer]

130. How can they deny all the photgraphic evidence for one thing?

I've never understood that. Unless it is a delusion brought on by extreme anti-Semitism.

[Selteri]

137. Hateful, foolish, ignorant or unable to reconcile

that people could do an atrocity like that.

Wait... Yeah, I'm talking about Holocost deniers... sorry, I thought we were mentioning the present right wingers for a second there with their Bu$h excusism.

[knight_of_the_star]

139. Very simple message for them

Your proctologist called, they found your head.

[Blue_In_AK]

147. How can any sane person deny the Holocaust

in the face of all the photographic, documentary and personal evidence?

[DaveinMD]

154. ask

trusting dog. He's doing it in this thread and it infuriates me.

[stanwyck]

157. My father was among the Allied troops

who "liberated" one of the concentration camps in Germany. Liberated is not accurate. The prisoners were all dead, stacked up like firewood with lime on their bodies. Tell him there was no Holocaust.
My thoughts on Holocaust deniers are too corrosive for my fellow Duers, who don't deserve to read such contempt. (Babs Bush and her "beautiful mind" you know).
Mel Gibson's father is a proud denier. And, I admit, that makes me suspicious of Mel. Mel Gibson also belongs to a fundamentalist form of Catholicism which does not hold with Vatican II, in part because of the apology to the Jews for the Vatican's anti-Semitism before and during the Holocaust.
There are many of these people. And I believe we should be relentless about allowing them credence within our culture.