Death penalty: For or against?

[BikeWriter]

Officials: DNA tests clear man convicted of girl's '92 murder

If released, Rivera would be the 160th person in the nation exonerated by DNA evidence and the 28th in Illinois.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-dna27.html

[davidinalameda]

1. only for people who feel the need to post Schiavo stories

enough already!

[BikeWriter]

Hee hee hee! Good point!

[imenja]

2. Is there a correlation between death penalty supporters and gun owners?

My hypothesis: yes. Am I right? Am I wrong? I'd be interested in knowing.

[BikeWriter]

3. Make a poll. ;-)

[imenja]

19. I sure love to do polls

But how exactly shall I phrase it. I suppose I could do four responses: I support guns and not the death penalty, etc.... Might look like an SAT question though. Any ideas?

[BikeWriter]

28. Does this look right?.

I support gun rights and I'm against the death penalty

I support gun rights and I'm for the death penalty

I don't support gun rights and I'm against the death penalty

I don't support gun rights and I'm for the death penalty

[imenja]

31. that's good

I guess it's not so SATish. What do you think: GD? It will get lost in the Gungeon.

[BikeWriter]

32. Here may be best. There is good participation on this poll. :-)

[imenja]

34. here it is

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3371852

Being a gun-hating radical, I changed the language from gun rights to gun control, but kept both in the message of the post.

[BikeWriter]

41. Okay, that sounds fine.

[imenja]

38. hey, help me keep it kicked

It's sinking fast

[Mr_Spock]

11. I wonder how productive it is to think like that?

Painting issues like this as black and white just makes us all look grey.

[imenja]

18. just a curiosity, a hypothesis

It's not meant to lead to the destruction of human kind.

[Stand and Fight]

22. No.

Own a gun. Strongly against death penalty.

Given the crooks in charge now, owning a gun may be the tipping point between them and us. </sarcasm>?

[imenja]

27. certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong in my assumptions

I think I'll do a poll on the question though.

[OneBlueSky]

54. don't know . . . but there's a correlation between gun owners . . .

and small penises . . .

(sorry . . . couldn't resist) . . . :)

[imenja]

56. :)

and paranoia. Have you noticed how many are certain the government is going to storm into their house, or that they can't survive without guns to protect them from the millions of criminals in their neighborhoods? My first time posting this theory, cause I haven't wanted to get flamed or banned over it.

[jojo54]

4. Against with some reservations

and that reservation is, we need to perfect the legal system because there are too many inconsistencies. I hope the government approves this new lie detector thing, even if it's only 99.999% accurate. Just like this man who's just been cleared, there are many others our there on death row whose case won't be reopened, despite new evidence or the accuracy of DNA testing.

[BikeWriter]

7. You're right, there are too many flaws in our Justice system.

[me b zola]

70. ...or injustice system, depending upon ones view.

I see a direct correlation between race & wealth and the type of "justice" one obtains. I hate our criminal justice system, and the rest of the industrialized world believes that it is barbaric as well.
Any time that we can send a 14, 15, 16. or 17 year old into the prison system we should all be ashamed, because we are sentencing them to be raped every day for their entire sentence...and the world is a more dangerous place if that child survives to be released into the community.

But you asked specifically about the death penalty. NO. The death penalty is reserved, overwhelmingly, for ethnic minorities & the poor. It does not make us safer and there have been far too many people prooven by DNA to be innocent AFTER they were scheduled to die, and that does not even touch all of those who were wrongly convicted who cannot be freed by DNA.

[BOSSHOG]

5. I've never been able to figure out which would be the

worst punishment, life in prison or death? If there were three eyewitnesses, DNA, drug tests, motive, opportunity, withadoubt the 22 year old young, handsome, rich young man raped and murdered the coed, which would be the worst punishment, life or death? I try to answer that question from the defendants standpoint but just can't do it.

Is it worse for society to take the life of a murderer or put him in a small cell for years and years and years and years. Which is worse? And if one believes he'll burn in hell for eternity because of his crime, how does the sentence enter into that eventuality? Too complex for me so I'll just keep on not committing crimes.

[quinnox]

6. against

for many reasons, one is simple economics. It costs more to execute people then to let them be in prison for life because of all the appeals they get.

The other is it isn't a moral value to say killing someone is wrong and they the government turns around and does it. And it doesn't send a clear message. Plus it has little deterrent value too.

[Skip Intro]

8. Killing to punish Killers because Killing is wrong is insane.

:crazy:

[BikeWriter]

53. Seems redundant, doesn't it?

[sui generis]

9. I'm torn

I can't say if it's more barbaric to put a clearly guilty human down or to warehouse them for life at the cost of society's resources.

I do know that if there is any doubt whatsoever, i.e., a circumstantial case, the state should err on the side of life. It's what differentiates us from neo-cons. Unfortunately that is not the case today - we're perfectly happy to execute people based on circumstantial evidence, and perfectly unwilling to admit when we have done so mistakenly.

In our minds as liberals we think it's better to not put a guilty person to death if it means that we spare the possibly innocent, while in a neo-con's mind they think it's better to kill as many criminals as possible, even if it means you accidentally get an innocent person from time to time. Somehow the latter does not fit with what I believe morality to be.

In the 21st century, we should have better tools than capital punishment, and certainly, the prison industry should not be for profit with paid lobbyists, because that means that they have a vested interest in getting as many people into jail as possible.

[Satara]

13. Not the worst punishment

98% of the time I am against the dealth penalty because of two reasons.

#1- death is the easy way out, IMHO.

In rare occassions I am ok with an inmate choosing to be put to death like Wurnos did in FL. To me that was more a assisted suicide thing, but well.. that's a different topic.

#2- two wrongs do not make a right- talk about mixed messages !

I don't think it deters murder or crime, either. And isn't that supposed to be the point ?

[sui generis]

39. well if you don't look at capital punishment as a deterrant

to begin with, there is still a necessity for it in a more efficient society.

I think the argument could be made that if someone is dangerous enough to lock up forever using our tax dollars, they are dangerous enough to get rid of as quickly as possible.

The goal is not to punish the criminal - it is to unburden society of a danger and the responsibility for that danger's welfare.

Like I said, I'm torn. I think as a "mature" society we should have better alternatives. On the other hand, we also have to be realistic. Life imprisonment is inefficient, especially when you have ganglords operating organized crime cartels from behind bars, and people committing murder and rape behind bars with impunity.

Pick your evil -

[sui generis]

10. how many people here have read "The Truth Machine"

did you agree or disagree with the "three strikes" law and mandatory immediate capital punishment? Did you interpret that as a mandate for eugenics or a mandate for preservation of social resources?

[Stand and Fight]

24. Read it.

Mandate for eugenics.

[Dogmudgeon]

25. I read it

It was the most chilling book I'd ever read -- basically, one's life was in the hands of a machine that was supposed to be perfect. But when a Very Special Member of the Elite breaks a law, it triggers the very first argument over the use of the machine, ever.

I kind of understand the point the author was trying to make. But it was still a Technocratic nightmare. And blamed on Al Gore, too.

--p!

[Pawel K]

12. I'm for it only against the worst criminals after long due processes

If there is any doubt if the person did it I am against it. However, this makes the issue very complicated.

[BikeWriter]

15. Yes, it does. The people who decide are fallible.

[prolesunited]

20. "Worst criminals"

How would you define that?

[BikeWriter]

42. ...and who would decide that?

[Pawel K]

43. Exactly why I meant it makes it extremely complicated

I think a person that kills and rapes a 9 year old girl should be put to death such as in the case in Florida. This guy is scum. Who decides? Well, the jury should. This isn't much different than how we do it now but for example, I would probably be against the death penalty for Peterson if I was in that court room as there is still some doubt.

[BikeWriter]

48. Too much doubt in my mind on Peterson.

I would not have voted to convict him of murder.

[yurbud]

14. I'm pro-choice with reservations

I don't think it's a deterrent, but I'm not too bent about it's use as long as it's not used on an assembly line for the poor, retarded, and black like in Texas.

They should at least have a trial and some evidence, or save it for uncontestable cases like when they caught the guy stabbing a hooker for the 47th time.

[yurbud]

16. Corporate killing, subversion of democracy, or fraud worth over $1 billion

If a business kills people as part of their business model, undermines foreign or domestic democracy to increase profits, or does serious damage through fraud, the CEO and board of directors should be executed.

I would also say the top half dozen shareholder, but how likely is that to happen?

[Old and In the Way]

17. I'd make special accommodations for convicted war criminals

and I wouldn't be opposed to televising their executions. I good deterent for future wannabe war criminals.

[BikeWriter]

55. Like *?

[Old and In the Way]

64. Like anyone who is tried for war crimes. I mean anyone.

I believe in fair and equal application of the law. If the world convicts you of war crimes, you need to go. Seems to me that'll be the best way of keeping war-mongering dictators from acting on their urges.

[Stand and Fight]

21. Strongly Against & Have First-Hand Experience...

Homicide in Las Vegas in September 2002. My mother was murdered. Cut down by a couple of punks. I am more against the death penalty now than I've ever been. Them receiving the death penalty will not assuage my lost, and it will not bring my mother back. There is no justice in government sanctioned murder. There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent. Life in prison is far worst. Appeals process costs too much. Killing others because they killed is the height of hypocritical insanity. There simply is no call for it.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. damn...

I'm very sorry to read of your mother's tragic death, and encouraged to read of your nuanced sense of justice.

The death penalty is always barbaric.

[Stand and Fight]

30. Thank you.

I never had much to go off of in the past. There was a time when I was staunchly in support of the death penalty. However, I came to see the futility of the act. My mother's untimely passing only served to deepen those reservations. I cannot imagine anything more barbaric and uncouth than killing someone else's loved one so that I MIGHT experience a MOMENT of "justice." I would not have someone else feel this kind of pain.

[BikeWriter]

29. You have my condolences. That was terrible!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. You have my sympathy. This reminds me of something that happened in Brazil

in 1992. The 21 year old daughter of a famous soap opera writer (who was in the soaps herself, as an actress) was gruesomely murdered. They caught the perp. Some asshole reporter, interviewing the grief-stricken mother, asks, "Do you wish there was capital punishment in Brazil?"

Her answer? A categoric NO. Certainly not what the reporter expected.

This woman deserves this emoticon: :yourock: Her name is Gloria Perez.

[K-W]

23. Against the American death penalty.

Because our justice system is no where near just enough.

[Walt Starr]

33. Strongly in favor of n/t

[Fountain79]

35. There are extreme cases

When I think of men such as Ted Bundy I see a great example of the death penalty. This was a man who was caught, escaped and then proceeded to kill more people. His execution relieved this planet of a very dangerous person, who would have likely killed again if he had been given a chance. Cases like this, I don't really have a problem with the death penalty. However there are many more cases where one has to wonder if the public good is being served by executing someone.

[mvd]

37. I am against having a death penalty

Like Mike Malloy said recently, I get emotional in certain cases and wouldn't want to test my belief. I favor getting rid of the death penalty entirely because the system will never be completely fair, plus I'm against killing of any sort as long as we have a good system like life in prison. That way, my emotions can't get in the way. In states where there is no life in prison, I'm consistent and am still against the death penalty - but strongly prefer a life option be added.

[Lone Pawn]

40. Against, except for treason in military courts in times of declared war.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Why?

Why that specific crime?

[sui generis]

47. well, military courts can accuse you of treason for just about

any reason at all.

If you mean, selling state secrets or engaging in an activity that leads to the death of your fellow citizens or soldiers to the advantage of the enemy, I might be inclined to agree. Being "at war" the way we're supposed to believe we're "at war" with the terraists is bullshit.

If you mean, insubordination based on conscientious objector status - I disagree.

I have a very narrow definition of why I think somebody in the military should line their fellow soldier up against a wall and shoot him or her, and it has to involve pure evil, not just ideological differences.

[Lone Pawn]

49. A few points.

1. We are not at war. War was not declared. That is what 'declared war' meant. We are not at a state of war with any nation, nor have we at any point under GWB.

2. Being a CO during a draft is not insubordination. Declaring yourself a CO after enlisting is. Neither are treason.

3. I define treason as quite literally lending aid to the enemy. And that does not mean 'supporting them in public,' but more to the tune of 'acting in a manner that immediately, physically, and maliciously causes harm to Americans and advantages the enemy with whom a state of war exists."

[sui generis]

51. It's not your definition of treason I'm worried about

it's every damn neocon out there who thinks that holding your mouth wrong while breaking wind is treason that worry me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Legalized barbarism.

It serves no purpose except to make the perpetraters feel powerful.

[Cuban_Liberal]

46. Absolutely against. n/t

[Left Is Write]

50. I am opposed to capital punishment.

[jbnow]

52. Strongly against though

I might be for it if killing the killer brought the dead victim back to life.

There are reasons like the unfairness of who ends up on death row and imperfect systems and so on, but they aren't even the point.

And it's not for the killer's sake...it is for societies sake. Cold, deliberated murder is no better then murder done due to greed, jealousy , craziness or whatever. It brings us down to the lowest level. It puts killing in the air...makes it a part of all of us.

It is an easier sentence for the murderer then life in prison. I'd say let them live locked up with boring but nutritious food. If they get TV let them have an educational station and a religious one or something. No pampering. Let them live out their life...what better punishment.

Now let me use the bible. I just wrote this on a thread earlier today about the death sentence that was overturned because the jury had used the bible in their deliberations:
Cain committed the first murder. God exiled rather then killed him but even more he put on him "the mark of Cain". This wasn't to shame him, it was to protect him from others killing him.

Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me." Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall he taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod , east of Eden." (Genesis 4:14-16 RSV

So if they want to use that god, they might want to answer why they think they know better then him and why they don't fear the sevenfold vengeance! That OT God was pretty mean but how he treated a killer made sense...he would live out his life away from all that he love, unable to grow things from the earth which was his living but he would live until time for him to die naturally.

The world is a bit more populous now and a wandering exile doesn't work...thus life in prison.

[Kinkistyle]

57. I'm for it only if it is REQUESTED by the convict.

If the convict WANTS to be executed rather than spend the rest his or her life in prison, then I fully support it. Otherwise, I am strongly against it.

[candle_bright]

58. I'm against the death penalty

For a whole bunch of reasons.

I do understand the reasoning of those for it, though. And I have no real sympathy for rightfully convicted people meeting their maker ahead of schedule.

[adwon]

59. Only problem with it

The centralization of discretion in the prosecutors. The discretion to apply it needs to be dispersed to some extent. Perhaps this could be spread between judges and juries, though I understand that this is currently unconstitutional, or maybe the old murder one/two distinction could be resurrected (where murder one was only punishable by death). Of course, the problem of discretion still exists because the discretion of which charge to pursue still rests with prosecutors.

I also think that the only penalty for treason should be death. Lesser penalties simply don't convey the magnitude of the betrayal.

[foreigncorrespondent]

60. Up until last year...

...I was for the death penalty. But after some deep soul searching around the middle of last year, I changed my views considerably and am now strongly against the death penalty.

Too many innocent people have been put to death, while the guilty still walk free.

[MrSlayer]

61. Strongly in favor.

I'd like to see it expanded to include pedophiles and violent rapists. Of course it must only apply in "open and shut, no doubt about it" cases. And in those cases it should be carried out immediately. No endless appeals, no burden to the taxpayer.

[Solon]

62. So, how many innocents will die under such a system?

There is no "open and shut" cases out there, none, the media makes it out to be that way, but it isn't that way. Either we have a system that minimizes the risks and mistakes of the justice system, and has a process to correct those mistakes, or we simply have a legalized murder system. How do you propose that we "perfect" the system to prevent innocents from being put to death without appeals?

[MrSlayer]

66. I beg to differ.

There are open and shut cases. People caught on video, admissions, acts committed in public, DNA. Take the walking excrement that raped and murdered Jessica Lunsford a week or so ago. There is no doubt in that case at all, zero, nada. He should have been hanged right after the body was recovered. In my world she would still be alive because the scumbag in question would have been dead after his first pedo conviction. How about the asshole who broadcast his rape of a three-year-old on the internet? There is no doubt he did it, none. He's on the video doing it. He should be executed immediately. You dig what I'm saying? There are hundreds of cases like this where there is zero doubt. In cases where there is enough evidence to convict but not supported by DNA, admission or some sort of eyewitness evidence, life in prison is acceptable.

[Solon]

67. So beat a confession out of someone...

and then hang them, hell why not just bring back lynchings then? While it is true that cases can be stong on the prosecutors side, it still needs to be aired out in court, otherwise you just encourage vigiliantiasm, and worst, despotism. You appeal to emotion, not logic, in these cases, and that is the wrong way to go about it, if you really advocate this type of system, move to Saudi Arabia, its more to your likeing then.

[MrSlayer]

68. Ah yes, the "corrupt cops" card.

I knew you were going to do this beating a confession bit but I had hoped you'd be more reasonable. I know you think all cops are evil, evidence planting torturers and all but that simply isn't the case. I do not believe the cops beat a confession out of either of the two people I mentioned nor do I believe it happens in 99% of the cases. Rouge cops do exist but for every one of them there are a hundred who genuinely want to help people. OK, to solve this problem I decree that all police interrogations must be videotaped and all claims of coercion will be brought before a judge to determine their authenticity. That aside, what makes you think I'd want to live in Arabia? That's a crazy generalization. A position on a single issue doesn't make me a radical Muslim. I'd rather be here than anywhere else except maybe Amsterdam. I support the death penalty but I'm not going to leave if they abolish it. I just know what I would want done if someone hurt my family.

[Selatius]

69. 99% is way too much credit to police officers; 85 to 95% is more realistic

I'm talking about evidence tampering or evidence planting in addition to beating or "sweating" confessions out of suspects.

Regardless, I object to the death penalty personally because I don't feel I have the right to judge another worthy of death regardless of their crime, and in its current form the death penalty system, especially in places such as Indiana and Texas, is wholly inadequate and sometimes grotesquely incompetent to the point of shocking the conscience.

Putting the murderer to death won't do anything except make people feel good. I have seen no evidence that the death penalty in the US is having any deterrent against crime. The Chinese government puts more people to death each year than the rest of the world combined, yet is that stopping murders and rapes and molestations?

I believe I was given the gift of thought and reason in addition to free will, but I do not believe I was given the gift to put to death a fellow human being. If I was taught anything, I was taught to forgive, but I was also taught not to forget.

[MrSlayer]

73. If all it does is make people feel good then that's good enough.

I agree with a lot of your concerns. The reason it's not much of a deterrent is because it isn't carried out correctly or in a timely manner so it really doesn't scare anyone. And I also agree that the system in a lot of states is fucked up beyond belief. To not allow a person every chance to defend their innocence before carrying out sentence is wrong. Obviously, my guidelines differ from what is in place in many states. The whole system would be overhauled.

I really have no problem putting myself above a pedophile child murderer. Where you might have a crises of conscience over putting these people to death, I won't. So we're just different. I think we both are interested in justice but I'd simply take a more direct approach to it.

I was taught to forgive too. But I was also taught that if someone hits me to hit them back harder. Some things are just beyond me to forgive. Raping and murdering my child would certainly fall into that category.

[Selatius]

74. Well, we have a truly fundamental difference of views here

For the life of me, if someone killed a member of my family, my first impulse would be to invoke the death penalty as punishment. I'm just being honest with myself about this when I state this, but through long contemplation, I came to the conclusion that seeing that person die will not heal the wounds inflicted upon me, and it will not bring back the victim. It's just another killing on top of blood already shed. On this point, I am committed that reason should trump impulse here.

I could not, on grounds of principle, advocate the death penalty without betraying what I am trying to live up to.

I believe there are better ways to reduce crime, and on this point, I believe many Western European nations are ahead of us with crime control.

[MrSlayer]

76. Well I commend you.

You are a man of your convictions. My convictions tell me to catch the person who did it myself and not even involve the authorities if possible. A good evening to you.

[Solon]

63. I'm against the death penalty...

in a perfect world I wouldn't be, but then again, in a perfect world there wouldn't be a need for the death penalty at all. No, our systems of law are imperfect, and prone to mistakes, and while there are many ways in which to correct those mistakes, innocents are still jailed and put to death. At least those jailed can somehow get free, but what about those who are victims of legalized murder? Who is going to jail for that crime against humanity?

[Auntie Bush]

65. Life...They have more time to think about their heinous crimes.

Timothy McVeigh hasn't suffered a second since his death. If he was still alive he could be suffering in a hell hole for years to come.
Death is an easy way out.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. I agree with you!

I don't it is about "suffering," per se, but rather punishment. Your example is a great one. I am living in Oklahoma and, although, Tim McVeigh is dead, it will be little comfort when the 10 year anniversary rolls around in a few weeks.

I am for prison reform. The idea that they can get college degrees for free, have weight rooms, cable TV, and other 'perks' is disgusting. Prison should be a punishment, not a trip to the "Holiday Inn."

[Biased Liberal Media]

71. Against but with some reservations

those who have fool-proof evidence of being child molestors and killers, half of me want them to be executed, but that's just my maternal side coming out. Mostly I'm against.

[NNguyenMD]

75. I am against the death penalty except in cases dealing with terrorist acts

I did not shed any tears when Timothy McVeigh was executed.

Anyone know what the Unibomber's outcome was?