Army recruiters at my work.

[Dangerman]

Clearly there were army recruiters where I work, I try to suppress my anti-war feelings, but I thought to myself they want to send poor guys to Iraq and return home in body bags.

:puke:

[Tux]

1. Not their fault

They are serving their nation as they see fit. It's their job to recruit more of them. Each wants to protect America and this is how they do it; by fighting wars many people can't/won't fight for one reason or another. Don't hold it against them. Hold Bush accountable since he is sending these people to death.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Correct, it is not the recuriters fault

and they are also trying to stay here and suport a family

[mike_c]

4. I disagree....

We are all responsible for what we do. We're responsible when we serve corruption and evil, and being ordered to do so does not absolve us of responsibility. Every soldier who has died in Iraq died for nothing worthwhile, and some recruiter shares responsibility for every one of their deaths.

[Tux]

9. What about those

That joined right after 9/11?

[mike_c]

13. are you talking about soldiers who died in Iraq...

...or about recruiters? I presume the former (?)-- I don't think *when* they enlisted makes any difference. If they died in Iraq, they threw their lives away for nothing good, no matter what their motives for enlisting. If you mean that they did not need to be convinced to enlist, that does not absolve the recruiters for exploiting the circumstances of those they HAVE preyed upon.

[Tux]

15. Once enlisted or comissioned

They MUST obey orders. When sent to war, they have to fight. If they disagree, too bad. My uncle hated the Vietnam war yet was drafted, did his tours, got a Purple Heart, left and never really speaks of it. No hard feelings. Somethings just require a person to see beyong politics and fulfill a duty they chose.

[mike_c]

28. that is not correct....

In fact, just the opposite-- once enlisted they have an obligation to refuse ANY unlawful order. It's late, and this ground has been gone over so thoroughly in the past that I'll simply refer you to previous discussions or other sources. Here's a good start: http://www.counterpunch.org/mosqueda02272003.html

[Tux]

29. However

Once ordered to war and fight they must.

I wash my hands of this. Too many anti-military types here. Makes me sick they'll ignore the futile war effort and condemn our troops in battle.

[FlemingsGhost]

5. Bullshit! These folks prey on the poor and naive

At some point, it ceases to be "just a job," when one is enabling crimes against humanity.

[blogbear]

43. BS Is Right..Many of us have heard and seen all this all before..

Some poor guy or gal is sent to 'serve' with their life and later to return to their love ones in a bodybag while some scumbag son of some rich snot who makes phone calls and has connections gets his kid safely out of harms way..Is there supposed to be something new or called for about this?

[TrustingDog]

7. Serving their nation? or serving their masters?

[Tux]

8. Serving the people

Who is represented by the politicians. SO far, we aren't looking good.

[TrustingDog]

11. when was the last time you did?

not personal so Don't get off our chair.

When was the last time your 'army' served you honourably? They serve others, not you. They serve the war factories and the bushlikes and grubbing $ machine.

[Tux]

14. No war

Since WW2 was justifiable however, the military doesn't declare war, it's the politicians. The military is a tool for a use: war. The politicians are the users.

[FlemingsGhost]

17. The military is a tool for DEFENSE.

Is there a "Department of War?" Nope.

[Tux]

19. Was a Dept of War

Back in the WW2 days. Name doesn't change it's purpose. It's still a tool of the military.

Why do you hate our troops so much?

[FlemingsGhost]

23. LOL ... Are you serious?

"Why do you hate our troops so much?"

That's all you can muster? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz ...

[Tux]

27. Yes

The troopers are just doing their duty. It's Bush's fault for Iraq war, not them. Is there any evidence Private Jones encouraging Congress for the war's budget?

[FlemingsGhost]

31. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

We were discussing recruiters.

[Tux]

34. And some people

Got us offtopic. Oh well. Leave it to Dems to act as fools then ignore thier actions.

[TrustingDog]

42. ahahahahahahah! Dems aren't the fools (well, considering, actually)

who owns the fricken Media and still comes out shining like shit?

How more foolish can any actions be that the ChimpBits? the renegade pretzeldent. the idiot not so savant? Of course, there are Their interests and Our interests, ya know the pleebs that foot the bills for his mental lacking fuckionaries.

[mike_c]

22. surely you're not suggesting that America's military adventures...

...since the second world war had anything at all to do with national defense? If so, I'd be interested in hearing your theories. Let's start with Iraq, since our military is currently busy murdering tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians in their zeal to defend us from..., what? Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction?

[Tux]

24. OK

People here are confused. They can't separate the troops in the field from the politician in the office. One fights wars the other points them at. The trooper signs on for whatever reason and has to fulfill thier duty. The trooper is not a foreign policy expert nor makes those policies. They just do as ordered.

[mike_c]

35. uh huh, and we hung them at Nuremberg for that....

With good reason. Obviously I'm taking some license here, but the point is that your perspective is pretty naive. I posted you a link to a counter-punch article above-- you really should have a look at it, and then follow up with some additional research about the responsibilities that the Nuremberg decisions and the Geneva Conventions place on individual military personnel at every level of command.

[Tux]

36. I know that

We all do but was the private hung for Hitler's decisions? No. Were generals? Yes. Condemning the entire military for the mistakes of the leaders is like saying the janitor is as corrupt as Wal-Mart's CEO.

[mike_c]

38. that was EXPLICITLY stated in the Nuremberg findings....

Yes, every soldier is responsible for their crimes. This is getting way off topic.

[FlemingsGhost]

39. I think that is the idea, mike

"This is getting way off topic."

Get some rest, it ain't worth the bother.

[mike_c]

41. sounds like a plan....

G'night.

[FlemingsGhost]

26. Precisely my point, mike

We are in complete agreement.

Sorry if my position was unclear.

[mike_c]

37. gotcha, thanks for clarifying.... n/t

[TrustingDog]

20. so is it politicalwarmongers or warmongeringpoliticians?

or warmongeringcorporationlobbyists... yada yada.
whatever, they do not represent Us.

[Tux]

30. They weren't elected

Thus they don't represent you.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. And it is not the used car salesman's fault..

when he sells you a lemon.

Recruiters have a quota of 2-3 bodies a month, and they don't work on commission, but their lives are pretty easy when they meet or exceed quota.

Recruiters have been known to tell any lie they could to get those bodies, and I do counseling and have heard some pretty rotten things.

I have heard of recruiters claiming that the kids could be shot for treason if they got out of DEP. I've heard of recruiters phonying medical exams to get obviously unfit kids in.

Maybe some started out thinking they were "serving their country" but most have become boiler room salesmen. Some have pleaded to get out of it because of what they have to do. Most just live with it, and are happy with the free tickets, expense vouchers, and nice car they get.

[Tux]

12. Been there, done that

I was kicked out of the USMC over some stupid shit my recruiter did. Not all of them are corrupt. Some are just doing their duty.

We may not agree with the Iraq war but we must support are troops. If we can't respect our veterns and troops, who can we respect?

[FlemingsGhost]

21. One earns respect

The U.S. military ain't had much to crow about since WWII

[TreasonousBastard]

25. We can respect the peacemakers...

which seems like such an incredible thing to so many.

I'm not the sort of pacifist that believes we can actually do away with the need for a military in my lifetime. Or any lifetime.

But, I am the sort of pacifist who believes putting the military in their place is necessary. I don't remember who said it, or the exact quote, but it was said by another pacifist that rough men will always be needed to defend the rest of us, but leave it only to those rough men.

Glorifying it to con the rest of us into thinking that taking ordinary kids and turning them into professional killers is perhaps not the best way to defend the country. Using those kids for phony wars overseas is definitely not the best way to defend the country.

When given a choice of whom to respect, and who works best to "defend" would one choose a Marine or Mother Theresa?

Were the marchers with King really any less heroic than the marchers at Bataan?

[Tux]

33. OK

When given a choice of whom to respect, and who works best to "defend" would one choose a Marine or Mother Theresa?

rough men will always be needed to defend the rest of us, but leave it only to those rough men.

So we have a bunch of nuns for our military? They're always needed. What we need is a president that will use them as a last resort. To me, war is an easy way out of a problem. But we still need our military. Nothing wrong with that but we can't give up support for the troops over a crappy war just because we don't like Bush.

[TrustingDog]

44. 'Defense' is a mindfuck word.

I certainly agree defense is always a must. But it must be on your soil, protecting yourself, not projecting yourself onto other defenseless people.

Just think of the vernacular, how would the Military 'Offense ' Department sound? truthfull, but not palatable.

[mike_c]

40. I have ZERO respect for "troops" murdering innocent civilians...

...in defence of a corrupt foreign policy. Why should we "support" them when they are acting like nazis?

[mike_c]

18. back during my misspent youth I was counseled by a navy recruiter...

...to falsify my enlistment papers to cover some inconvenient elements of my juvenile delinquent background. In the end, those lies resulted in my eventual discharge-- a good thing, in retrospect, but yes, you're right-- military recruiters will tell damn near any lie or exploit any circumstance or tragedy to make their quotas, and they ultimately share responsibility for every unnecessary death-- including those of the civilians killed by the soldiers they recruit. I was poor, uneducated, and had few prospects. I attracted recruiters like flies on shit.

[Last Lemming]

3. You think you have it bad

I work at a military hospital (as a civilian) and take care of the recruits. Now I've ranted about this war since before the beginning of time--but the US military saved my husband's life--he was an ethnic Albanian in Kosovo during ethnic cleansing. There are times when war is appropriate but the trouble is, who decides?

I was in favor of the war in Afghanastan--now I can't believe that I was--but Iraq was too much. But this all has to work itself out--people live in a fantasy land and there is no way you alone can wake them up.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. Is there any way you can waste their time by feigning interest?

String them along for as long as you can. It just might save someone's life.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. I don't know how things are where you work...

but obviously someone let them in.

If possible, I would get anti-enlistment material from the War Resistors League, CCW, or other organizations and have it handy should anyone bite at their hook.

www.warresistors.org
www.nisbco.org
www.objector.org

[queeg]

32. just watch out for press gangs

that will take you off and make you work in the rigging and sing bad sea shanties.