The victims of the Red Lake Incident - and more about Jeff Weise.

[mzmolly]

The entire list of victims here: :(

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S7237.html?cat=1



Jeff Weise (The Shooter)

It had been awhile since the 16-year-old had been to Red Lake High School after he was placed in "Homebound" schooling - where a teacher visits a student at home - for breaking the rules. Students say he was a loner.





The grandfather of Jeff Weise and one of his first two victims, 58-year-old Daryl Lussier was a lifelong tribal police officer known around the reservation by his nickname: Dash.

"If you knew him, you said Dash, and everyone knew who you were talking about," said Ed Naranjo, a retired Bureau of Indian Affairs officer who worked with Lussier in 1979 and again from 1985 to 1990.

...

He was that kind of individual who could calm a very hot situation," Naranjo said. "He just projected that feeling."


The Wounded:

http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S7238.html?cat=1

The Smoking Gun has more "disturbing" information as well:

http://thesmokinggun.com/archive/0323051weise1.html

[imenja]

1. why have you put shooter in quotes?

[mzmolly]

2. I dunno, is this an English exam?

I edited my message, because I actually did not intend to post so soon, but instead of hitting preview I hit post.

Did you have a comment on the carnage, or just my lack of good grammar?

[imenja]

5. I was asking about the point you were making

I'm hardly going to spend my time correcting grammar errors on DU. I'd have time for nothing else. Your use of the quotes suggested that you did not think he was a "shooter." Or that what he did didn't amount to shooting. That is why I asked. Punctuation conveys certain meanings.

I don't have anything to say about the murders, other than the obvious fact guns are far too available. Comments about gun control, however, are not viewed as acceptable on DU, so I'll avoid further discussion of that subject.

[mzmolly]

7. Sorry, you dumped first. I emphasized "shooter" because he was in fact

the "shooter" and is known as such now. "Shooter" has become his identity.

I happen to agree that guns are too available.

But, Jeff Weise's grandfather was a cop, which is where he got the guns and the bullet proof vest he wore while killing his fellow class mates.

[imenja]

24. okay, but I didn't dump. I asked so that I would understand your meaning

nothing more. You read into my question offense that was not intended or expressed.

[shelley806]

9. Excuse Me? Quoting YOUR quote...What do you mean by this remark?

"Comments about gun control, however, are not viewed as acceptable on DU..."

[mzmolly]

10. I didn't get that either?

I've personally never experienced a bias against gun control here?

[shelley806]

15. Nor have I...Only one of the many reasons that DU keeps me sane! nt

[imenja]

23. Really? Look at this poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1671048

52% of DU respondents believe the Democratic party should abandon debate on gun control. I asked a number of them what debate they were talking about, since I haven't heard any in a long time. Every time I mention the subject I get piled on. Let's see if that happens here.

[mzmolly]

26. You mistated the situation.

YOUR question was:

"If you were asked by someone high up in the Democratic party which issue should us Democrats drop to help become more competitive nationwide which would you choose and why?"

You then posted a list of issues to choose from.

Clearly the issue of gun control is an issue that would make us far more competitive than dumping the need for universal health care.

[imenja]

55. no, that wasn't my poll

I would never post such a poll because I dislike the idea of excluding any positions from debate. I merely pointed this out because it provided on convenient example of anti-gun control positions on DU. That a majority chose gun control, over 50 percent, out of several options, tells you there is a great deal of anti-gun control sentiment on DU.

[imenja]

57. I posted a poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3357891

here. Let's see what happens. I sincerely hope that my statements above are proven wrong.

[shelley806]

29. I missed this poll before, but perhaps you should repeat it, and

change the wording...judging by some of the respondents posts, I think that many might have voted opposite to what they meant to do. At any rate, a major question was left out...stance on the Iraq war. Also, 100 or so votes may not be statistically significant.

I would have voted for gay 'marriage'. The sole 'raison de etre' (purpose, reason for existence etc) in all civilized nations and in all religions, is to bear children, and to protect offspring.. Gays can't do this. Marriage and gays are simply an oxymoron; completely antithetical. Civil Union is OK with me, but not marriage, as traditionally and naturally understood. I'm certain this is not a popular opinion on DU, and I can't recall having ever posted it, but this is my opinion. If you obstinately argue against nature, it will surely come up to bite you. Much as the entire 'right to life' hypocrisy of the Radical Conservative Right Wingers, who support Guns, Death Penalties, This current evil War, Unborn Children, and now, the poor woman who has been brain dead for 15 years. IMHO.

[imenja]

54. the poll wasn't mine and I don't like it

I dislike the entire premise of excluding ideas from debate. I might do a poll about gun control alone though. That would be interesting.

[imenja]

58. Here's a new poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3357891

[imenja]

22. because it seems to be the case

If anyone mentions gun control hundreds of gun owners get freaked out. There clearly is a very strong gun lobby on this site. That's what I meant.

[shelley806]

30. Like I inferred before, that has simply not been my impression

of my experience at DU. Re-post your Poll, and try different wording and/choices. Gun Control is such an obvious necessity for me in this murderous culture that it almost doesn't need mention. Look at the daily death tolls; kids killing kids everyday in major cities, sometimes for tennis shoes. I know this is the case; I had direct experience of it at a major county forensic medical examiners office. But 'our' (believe me, not mine) 'love' of guns is as artificial as our love of oil. Both have become artificial needs, and both have resulted in thousands of innocent deaths...(with respect to oil, I'm not just talking about Iraqis and others who have died because of our insatiable psuedo need for oil, but also all of the accidents due to automobiles...not an insignificant number in terms of percentages of causation of death).

[imenja]

56. well obviously I agree with you

but the poll isn't mine. I could post a gun control poll, but I would have to refrain from entering into discussions with the anti-gun control people, who already hate me as it is.

[Straight Shooter]

3. The kid looked just like his grandfather.

A shame he didn't share the same DNA for character, apparently.

I despise people who take out their problems on other people. I really have no sympathy for them. The only "silver lining," I suppose, is the kid didn't grow up and then blow up a building filled with 200 people.

[mzmolly]

4. It's tough to have sympathy, but we can try to understand so as to prevent

such things from happening in the future?

This kid lost his father to suicide four years ago and his mother to severe brain damage not so long after.

Not that this forgives his actions, but he certainly had a different set of circumstances than most.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Have there been any details released about Jeff Weise's life

in the years before the shooting?
EDIT: Thanks mzmolly. That sort of answers some of the questions. I did hear that he had been relocated to his grandparents' home after his mother's accident, he had been the victim of quite a lot of bullying at school, that he was on Prozac, and that the school he attended, a very poor school on a Native American Reservation, had one guidance teacher for 400 kids.
As you said, no excuses, but a little perspective, and a bit of sadness that after what happened at Columbine we, as a nation and a society still have not put into place, processes that could have prevented this.

[mzmolly]

8. Yes, many details.

Tragic life. His father killed himself 4 years ago, and his mother is in a nursing home with severe brain damage after a near fatal wreck.

Additionally, the Reservation he lived on has a high poverty/unemployment rate.

His family claims they never saw it coming, that he was a kind kid. Those at the school claim he (for the most part) creeped them out.

[shelley806]

I was going to ask what the cause of the brain damage was, but you

mentioned it. I wonder if she's in a PVS (persistent vegetative state)? And being tube-fed...(rather than being starved to death, murdered,....I jest in disgust)

[mzmolly]

17. EEK!

I had a reply in jest, but I'll save it. ;)

[shelley806]

21. Oh come on! Spill it! LOL nt

[mzmolly]

11. Indeed.

I visited the Reservation 20 plus years ago, and I'll never forget my experience there.

I agree with you that understanding may lead to future prevention.

[ananda]

12. prozac

Tonight on the Lehrer report, an interview with Jeff Wiese's aunt revealed that the boy had been put on Prozac, to treat his depression, and right before the murders his dosage was upped!

I can't believe that anyone in a position to know better would defend the use of pyschotropes as a way of helping young people. All the evidence shows that psychotropes increase tendencies towards violence and suicide.

It's clear that both the boy and his family were very poorly done by.. by authorities and by the mental health system.

Sue

[mzmolly]

13. Oh my, I did not know that!

I do know that many of these drugs make people quite aggressive. UGH

[BrklynLiberal]

14. The media will paint him as the monster, no doubt. The bureaucrats

who dropped the ball in this case will start covering their asses immediately and all the blame will end up on the head of one of the first victims in this tragedy:Jeff Weise.

[mzmolly]

16. It's already begun. The local media shows various people covering keester

I do feel both pity and anger toward this young man. My heart cries out for him and his victims. And, I agree that ultimatley it is WE, the adults in this society that failed him and his fellow students.

[Ariana Celeste]

18. That's how I see him,

the first victim.

This could have been prevented. This kid should have been placed in therapy, and someone should have been paying attention to him.

Kids don't just up and evolve into monsters. Something makes them snap. I think a father who committed suicide, a mother in a home, poverty, and an obvious problem with depression would damage any kid.

I don't agree with what he did, but it pisses me off to see people talk about him like he was some kind of evil demon.

These things can be prevented, but as a society we need to take care of some of the problems that cause this. Poverty is a big one.

[mzmolly]

19. Bravo.

"as a society we need to take care of some of the problems that cause this. Poverty is a big one"

[ananda]

35. absolutely

"This kid should have been placed in therapy, and someone should have been paying attention to him."

Exactly. Drugs are not the answer, that's clear.

Did ya'll know that all the school shooters so far have been on psychotropes, had unhealthy relationships, were mostly bullied, and lived a secret life on the internet?

There's a pattern here...


Sue

[mzmolly]

38. Indeed, we are beginning to see a typical "profile"

I did not know that all the shooters were on "psychotropes" :wow:

To add to your list:

facination with death - a given I guess

fans of morbid rock music (I'm not suggesting censorship ~ just noting a connection)

access to guns

discussed shooting at school before hand

[shelley806]

20. Exactly...if ANY GOOD can possibly come out of this for many young

people, it will relate to the misuse of pharmaceutical drugs (I would include Ritalin) to treat depression (or hyperactivity or whatever other label)in youths, and to perhaps pinpoint the similarities in the high school shooting cases that would lead to a greater understanding and prevention. Clearly tolerance is something that teens simply don't have...it seems to be a 'normal' cycle of growth. Only adults who retain intolerance is pathological. But in this particular case, you have a troubled isoalated teen, pre-occupied with violence (Anderson Cooper had a bit of his presumed postings on the internet tonight) and you isolate him further by home schooling and give him anti-depressants and unlimited acess to the internet? Some bad judgement calls here IMO that led to this tragedy.

[ananda]

37. ritalin & ADD drugs bad too

Definitely. It's not just psychotropes that are bad.

You know, it's so nice to see so many people here who understand that all of these drugs are bad, and that the answer is paying attention to kids and getting them the right kind of therapy or counseling... which also includes family therapy/counseling.

Don't forget, Jeff Wiese came from a very dysfunctional family.

Sue

[Redstone]

39. "Ritalin and ADD drugs bad?" You're out of line on that one.

Are you going to condemn insulin next?

"Ritalin and ADD drugs" have been a godsend to me and two of my kids. Don't condemn it unless you've been there, please.

Redstone

[shelley806]

45. It is so over-prescribed, that if you and yours are some of the

extremely few that it has any merit for (other than a placebo effect) good for you. Hyperactivity is often intelligence that has to be subdued. Teachers keep the bright ones 'down' by doping them. This happened to my brilliant nephew. He did benefit scholastically, but at what cost? Ritalin and other ADD drugs make big money.

[mzmolly]

48. I agree. I've heard that Ritalin actually shrinks the brain?

My husband was one such intelligent kid that had to be mentally subdued in order to sit for hours a day at a desk listening to a droning teacher.

[shelley806]

49. LOL ! I've never heard that it shrinks the brain and I wouldn't believe

that without rigorous proof, but I do believe that it is over-prescribed to smart kids who are normally hyperactive, and not mentally ill. And the lazy teachers and the pharmaceutical companies benefit greatly from this. And the intelligent hyperactive kids ...we don't know the long term effects. My nephew is doing very well....he is so darn smart. (and very good as a human being) Some have linked Ritalin to later drug addiction...makes sense to me and I pray that it isn't true, but who knows?

[mzmolly]

50. Check this out.

http://www.google.com.ar/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-45,RNWE:en&q=ritalin+shrinks+brain


:shrug:

[shelley806]

53. YIKES! I checked out the thread, and read a bit of the Frontline

article on it (PBS documentary) but didn't get too far-too tired to comprehend last night. Not too many of the articles appear to be reported in medical journals, but you know how medicine and the pharmaceutical companies practice CYA (Cover your Arse) when there is a potential for malpractice. Very scary though. I'd like to see CT scans on these supposedly shrunken brains.

TU for the post mzmolly!

[DARE to HOPE]

42. I agree with you, Shelly, and with Sue who posted above...

...about the MALPRACTICE of handing out psychotropic drugs to teens and younger. I am AGAINST replacing with drugs the very nutrients the brain REQUIRES to work, even were there no other dangers. But the siren is sounding all around us.

We had several tragedies in the Chicago area with doctor's wives, of all things, one jumping out a window in the postpartum stage, the other killing her children. Of course, punishment is all people think about. The medical interests have bought Illinois inside and out (eg, no midwifery allowed.)

Every portfolio in America has pharmaceutical stocks at the top. And they are fighting like cats and dogs to keep it that way.

Blessed holy weekend, everyone. Light in the midst of darkness.

Lin

[shelley806]

43. And I could not agree with your post more...especially with respect

to pharmaceuticals. All (almost all) about money, but what else is new. A friend of mine was one of the medical examiners in the Yates case (the Houston woman who drowned her children) and another friend knew her husband who worked at NASA, and another friend knew the "old"
Andrea when she worked at MD Anderson Cancer Center as a nurse. I'm convinced that over-medication of the wrong sort, and mis-diagnosis were the cause of these childrens deaths. I'm not surprised that it affects doctors wives; in fact I would imagine that they would be more suseptible to it since pushing meds is all most doctors do now.

"Blessed holy weekend, everyone. Light in the midst of darkness"

Back at you Lin! And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not

[OneBlueSky]

25. the U.S. media is beneath contempt . . .

compare the coverage of this tragedy to the coverage of Columbine . . . one was in a suburban middle class town . . . the other was on an Indian reservation . . . the disparity in coverage speaks volumes about this country and, particularly, the media . . .

[mzmolly]

27. I have noted a sad disinterest on the part of DU-ers as well.

It's mind boggling.

[countryjake]

46. I, for one, am ashamed. Some don't even know that this happened.

The apathy towards the poor is why things like this occur.

[DARE to HOPE]

28. Not disinterest, just sick onto death and sad for this child,

and for all those he killed.

My whole life is caring for kids in Chicago's south suburbs, often shuttled between parents, or raised by grandparents when the parents are divorced or dead.

This child is showing sadness all over the place.

Which is why they put him on Prozac, a disaster waiting to happen!

Dear God, I keep trying to spread the news--fish oil/omega-3's and B vitamins are ESSENTIAL for brain health, for pregnant mothers, for the children they bear, for ALL of us!
The calcium series also helps. (And coconut oil helps the brain absorb it all.)

But this child needed someone's arms to sob into. I mean, losing your Dad to suicide?!! OF COURSE the son is vulnerable! His role model has given him the pattern! And then, to lose his only comfort, his Mom, AND HIS VERY HOME!!

Was there no church? No boys' club? No counselor at school? The other children who are speaking up spoke of words they had heard which should have been reported to SOME caring adult.

Poor, poor child. I see so many, just let alone to "raise themselves like Topsie." And it breaks my heart.

[shelley806]

31. What a compassionate, wonderful post. It sounds as if you are in the

right field.


"Was there no church? No boys' club? No counselor at school? The other children who are speaking up spoke of words they had heard which should have been reported to SOME caring adult."

No, they put him on anti-depressants, gave him home schooling (further isolating an already isolated, disturbed child) and apparently gave him full access to the internet!

[mzmolly]

34. Just a slight note. The school put him on a "Homebound" program because

of his talk of violence at school, however (as you point out) they did not deal with the greater issues this boy faced.

[shelley806]

40. Thanks for the info mzmolly; I didn't know that detail. nt

[shelley806]

32. Dare to Hope, an afterthought after my last post to you; if you read this,

I wish that you'ld also take the time to read and comment on my post #20; would very much appreciate your insight. Thanks.

[G_j]

33. Chippewas shutting out rest of world to mourn

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0503240248mar24,1,4673700.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=3&cset=true

Chippewas shutting out rest of world to mourn

By Margaret Ramirez
Tribune religion reporter
Published March 24, 2005


As the Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians mourned the deaths of its community members, tribal elders sealed off their reservation and gathered Wednesday, alone in their grief.

The isolation offered little insight into why a 16-year-old Chippewa shot his grandfather, eight others, and then himself. But the separation from the outside world does shed some light on Chippewa culture, religious beliefs and their rituals at death.

The Chippewas are one of the largest American Indian groups in North America with nearly 150 bands throughout the northern United States and southern Canada. In historical texts, the Chippewas explain that they are "one people with three names" and are referred to as Chippewa, Ojibwa or Anishinabe. While Chippewa is the official name recognized by the U.S. government, Ojibwa is more popular and preferred among members of the tribe.
<snip>

"The fact that they want to separate themselves makes a lot of sense to me. They want to deal with their own people, and that's a very Ojibwa way to do things," Vecsey said.

..more..

[mzmolly]

36. Thanks for sharing this article.

I do believe they are having a public ceremony on Saturday?

[shelley806]

41. I thank you too. I am very ignorant of native americans and their

'plight', but my older brother (psychologist) was very well versed and spent hundereds of hours of volunteer time with the reservation Indians in Colorado. Recently, I read (online) Black Elk Speaks and I wept with grief. The story is unbelievably moving.

[G_j]

51. I have read that a few times

a rare glimpse into the life the Lakota.

I would also recommend "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee"
an historical overview of the tragic 'relationship' of Native Americans and the white 'conquerers'.

[dxstone]

44. Seems like he was really crying out for help too...

Haven't seen his postings yet, but the video, the name he signed it with, other names he used on post... it's quite apparent that he needed something there, and that he didn't get it...
I am disgusted by the overuse of pharmaceuticals in this country today, ESPECIALLY with kids (though I think the problems much broader than that, and that modern psychology is at least partially a pseudoscience used quite a lot as a political tool, a way to deny the very REAL problems many people face, to mask their truly deep and often political nature in a pretense of personal difficulties--because even when this system breaks people down, we don't all break at the same rate of speed... so they can deal with each on a personal basis, one by one, using a lot of theory and psychobabble to convince victims of intolerable stress that it is THEIR fault, that the problem is not real at all but simply "all in their minds"... IMHO.)
But as noted earlier in this thread, the misdiagnosing and overprescribing of these drugs is particularly pernicious in the case of kids...
It's easy for fearful and ignorant people to cast the boy as a monster.
But ALL monsters are tragic... it is in fact their very nature.
And in nearly all cases of the truly horrifyingly tragic such as he, we can see a larger, more universal pattern that makes this continuing cycle all the more tragic still:
In EVERY case, there's always a lack of love, a lack of warm human connection with some, indeed, ANY other.
You can manufacture serial killers, make 'em right to order. It's EASY. Just take a child when they're born, remove 'em from any warm human interaction for the first two weeks, keep 'em in a warm incubator but deny 'em the comforting caress of mother or caring nurse of either sex (it doesn't matter), and voila!... instant psychopath.
Love is the most important thing, the greatest force in the universe.
It's so easy to give, costs you nothing... and when you give it away, it makes you stronger and larger and more luminous than before...
It is The Force. It is all we ever really need; every other impossible challenge can be faced and even impossibly surmounted when love is a vital component of the individual life. In this sense, then, it is our GREATEST need... and yet for some impenetrable reason, some perversity of the human animal, so many people are still so goddamned stingy with it.
When the hell is the human race EVER gonna wake up already?
But as you said, Molly, it is nice that so many here seem to 'get' what evades so many others who need to judge and label and condemn...
A terrible tragedy.
And no, it has not gotten nearly enough attention on these pages, especially when compared to some conspicuous others...
D

[mzmolly]

47. Very thought provoking post.

Thank you.

[Judi Lynn]

52. Thanks, mzmolly, for the helpful information. Tragic for all concerned

It helped to learn more. Not that many kids could carry the burden he was given. Very, very sad.

His community has handled this blow with real character and dignity. I don't blame them for preferring to do without a herd of reporters stampeding through with satellite trucks and cameras.

A few very decent, thought-provoking comments on this thread.