Myths about the Schiavo case debunked

[Kelvin Mace]

In order of stupidity:

Michael Schiavo tried to kill his wife. Terri's nurse said so.

If you want to believe this you must also believe that practically person involved in Mrs. Schiavo's care conspired to cover up attempted murder. The court did review the affidavit of one Carla Iyer, registered nurse who claims:

- Mrs. Schiavo was lucid.
- All of her notes indicating Terri was lucid were mysteriously deleted.
- She saved Mrs. Schiavo's life after her husband "injected her" with insulin.
- A fellow LPN was possibly killing patients.
- She was fired after she told police about all these crimes.

The court found Ms. Iyer's tales "incredible" which is legalese for "bullshit". In order for her claims to be true everyone from Mrs. Schiavo's doctors to the police had to decide to cover up for Michael Schiavo.

Theresa Schiavo is lucid.

I do not wish to be disrespectful here, but I am dealing with people determined to ignore cold facts, so I will be blunt. Mrs. Schiavo is about as lucid as your average Venus Flytrap. She responds reflexively to some stimulus, but there is NO willful, deliberate or conscious actions.

The cerebral cortex of Mrs. Schiavo's brains was destroyed 15 years ago due to anoxia (oxygen starvation) brought about when heart stopped beating due to a potassium imbalance. The cerebral cortex is responsible for all higher brain functions. It is the part of the brain that makes you "you". It allows you to think, it contains your personality, your language and and voluntary motor functions. Without this part of your brain you are like a computer with know operating system. They can boot you up in the morning, but you pretty much just sit there and do nothing except consume electricity.

Theresa Schiavo could get better.

Yes, theoretically, in a parallel universe, two hundred years in the future where Star Trek is actually real, Dr. McCoy could travel back in time and stumble across Mrs. Schiavo and give her a pill (which she couldn't swallow, since swallowing is a conscious action) and she would regrow her cerebral cortex. Mr. Spock would then find the keeper of her katra and restore her personality via a Vulcan Mind Meld™.

But, short of that, no, she won't get better.

But people have come out of these types of situations before. I read in Reader's Digest about this guy who was in a coma/vegetative state who suddenly started writing a novel...

Stop! This is an "apples and oranges" situation. The folks you have read about suffered physical trauma to their brain, usually as a result of falls and car crashes. The cerebral cortex was damaged, but still there. Mrs. Schiavo's cortex is not damaged, it is DEAD. The brain tissue died from lack of oxygen. In fact, the cortex has shriveled and liquefied.

Let's go to the CT Scan where Carol Merrill is standing:

]

As you can see, you can't think with what isn't there.

Future medical advances, like stem cell research, could help her regrow dead brain tissue.

Yeah, like stem cell research is blazing along in Bush's America. That issue aside, such things are WAY in the future. Also, assuming such a technology showed up courtesy of Dr. McCoy's vacation layover in this dimension, and you regrew the dead brain tissue, the tissue would be BLANK. The unique essence that was Theresa Schiavo has been lost forever. It was lost 15 years ago.

Nothing is going to change this. Not Wendi Freisen hypnosis CDs, not Bob with a truckload of Enzyte™, and not Benny Hinn and a Holy Ghost Machine Gun (pat pending).

Senator Bill Frist, who is a heart surgeon said Terri's diagnosis was wrong and he looked at the tapes and she wasn't really in a vegetative state.

1) Dr. Bill is a quack. Why do I say that? Because only a quack would diagnose a person he has NEVER met, never mind examined.

2) It's Mrs. Schiavo to you.

3) While Dr. Bill is a medical doctor (or at least he plays one in the senate), he is NOT a neurologist or a neurosurgeon. He is not qualified to make ANY diagnosis of Mrs. Schiavo's condition. A civil engineer is not a nuclear engineer and we don't give much credence to his opinion on nuclear reactor design.

4) Dr. Bill is using Mrs. Schiavo as a tool to pander to the religiously insane side of the Republican party. In 1989 Frist advocated changing the definition of "brain dead" to include anencephalic babies. Anencephalic babies are in the same state as Terri Schiavo except that she suffered a physical trauma that put her into a vegetative state while the anencephalic babies are born that way.

Michael wants his wife dead so he can collect the money from her settlement.

1) The fund was exhausted years ago. This charge was made back in 1998 and was found without merit by the court. Michael had at the time formally offered to surrender his wife's trust fund to independent administration. He would in now way benefit from the money.

2) That's Mr. Schiavo to you.

Michael Schiavo wants his wife dead so he can marry another woman.

Mr. Schiavo could have divorced his wife long ago and married anyone he wanted. Mr. Schiavo started dating again at the insistence of his in-laws who encouraged him to get on with his life. Mr. Schiavo went so far as to introduce women he was dating to his in-laws.

Michael Schiavo abused his wife and neglected her care.

Dr. Wolfson, the court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem who spent a month investigating the Schiavo case found that Mrs. Schiavo received outstanding care from both her parents and her husband. In fact, he noted in his report that after 13 years in a bed, she had never ONCE developed a bed sore. The medical professionals out there will tell you that this is indicative of near miraculous, exceptional care.

Theresa Schiavo's parents are evil.

No, they just love their daughter. They have allowed their love to cloud their judgment so much that they have become pawns of outside groups with political agendas who are lying to them and giving them false hopes.

Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to kill his wife.

No, he asked the court to step in (in accordance with Florida law) and determine whether life support should be stopped. The court, acting as a proxy, ruled that Mrs. Schiavo was in a "persistive vegetative state", had no hope of getting better, and had told people at various times (funerals) before her accident that she had no desire to be kept alive in such a state.

The court found all the evidence "clear and convincing" and order her feeding tube removed. The COURT did this, not Michael Schiavo.

A feeding tube is nourishment, not life support.

Not according to Florida law:

Life-prolonging procedure" means any medical procedure, treatment, or intervention, including artificially provided sustenance and hydration, which sustains, restores, or supplants a spontaneous vital function.

§ 765.101(10)

The video tape I saw shows here reacting to people.

The video you saw was edited to give that impression. It was culled from hours of video where Mrs. Schiavo did absolutely nothing. Random or reflexive reactions do not demonstrate cognition.

Removing the feeding tube is a cruel thing to do. She will be in agony, dying of hunger and thirst.

No. The part of Mrs. Schiavo's brain that would register pain of this sort is gone. Medical professionals describe the death as peaceful.

A summary of Mrs. Schaivo's Guardian Ad Litem's report can be found here:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001986.html


Further reading:

Abstract Appeal - Timeline and excellent source of court rulings
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

Dr. Jay Wolfson's <i>Guardian Ad Litem</i> report
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/0319schiavo_finalreport.pdf

Q&A on legal issues in Schiavo case
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11197084.htm

Bio of Theresa Schiavo
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11183098.htm

Death when a feeding tube is withdrawn is "placid"
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11183111.htm

[BlueEyedSon]

1. Thorough, as usual... kick.

Although I think her parents *may* be evil. Sometimes ignorant stubbornness = evil outcome.

[NYCGirl]

2. Great post. Recommended. NT

[Lindacooks]

3. Wonderful! Bravo and nominated!

Plus copied to my hard drive.

[Willy Lee]

4. Well said.

[ultraist]

5. Again, it's a matter of FACT vs. RW fundie talking points

:thumbsup:

[Kota]

6. Excellent post. Thank you.

[thinkingwoman]

7. I can't praise this enough!

Great post!

[LiberalinNC]

8. Excellent post!

Did you hear about the guy who is trying to raise money to pay off Michael Schiavo - the intention is to get Schiavo to either walk away from his wife or divorce her.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. Gotta love

them caring about the sanctity of marriage. :eyes: Only when it works for them. Oy. Nice post. Thanks for the brain scan too. I might have to use this later so I'll know where to come if I need to. :toast:

[Kelvin Mace]

18. The money offer

was very telling to me. Once again it demonstrates the shallowness of the Right. They think everything can be solved with money.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

15. Yes, but he turned it down

PLUS, even if he walked away, it doesn't matter. The decision was made by the court. Even if he walked away it was the court's decision and they have refused to back down.

[LiberalFighter]

47. I heard on local radio that scumbag Glen Beck was raising money

[comsymp]

9. Good stuff - a minor nitpick, though

Theresa Schiavo's parents are evil.

No, they just love their daughter. They have allowed their love to cloud their judgment so much that they have become pawns of outside groups with political agendas who are lying to them and giving them false hopes.

Speculation. While I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're correct, I don't think that anybody other than the Schindlers know what their motivations are.

Otherwise, it's terrific.

[Kelvin Mace]

16. That was the opinion of the GAL

and his report is well written and very inciteful.

From what little I have read from before this became a crircus, I feel that is the case. Besides, no one ever sees themselves as evil. <s>

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[comsymp]

34. GAL's report is well written and insightful, indeed~

Shame, really, that ppl aren't required to read it in its entirety before attempting to publicly discuss the "details" of the case (same for Churchill's essay)- of course, then it never would have made the news.

Y'know, I'm looking forward to meeting you one of these days, neighbor.

ON EDIT: recommended, also.

[spanone]

10. Kick!!!!

[sonicx]

11. nominated.

[DireStrike]

12. Thank you. kick.

[SW FL Dem]

14. Good unemotional summary of the facts n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

17. Well done Kelvin Mace. Clear, Concise and Well Researched.

I'm not all that easily impressed - but excellent work!
Nominated :-).

[hunter]

19. Raw Meat! Raw Meat!

That's all we are to the vampires, rat-bastards, and maggots who now run this show.

[The White Tree]

20. Here is a good article I about the situation from the Miami Herald

It clarifies a lot of the background of what has been going on with this situation, partucularly in regards to the husband and the parents.

It was posted today.

<http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11215317.htm>

[sonicx]

22. requires registration, so...

to get to the link...

go to google...paste the link in and search for it...click link.

[The White Tree]

31. Sorry, I got to it through Yahoo and it required no registration for me

I went to this link and then clicked on the article, Husband, In-Laws once united incaring for Terri in the list of featurs on the left.

<http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050324/ts_usatoday/schiavonotlikelytoexperienceapainfuldeathneurologistssay>

[kskiska]

69. Use bugmenot.com

Paste in the URL and it'll give you passwords.

[NewJeffCT]

21. I hate to tell you this

But, sadly, Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy is dead (in real life)... there will be no mission back in time to save Terri Schiavo.

[Kelvin Mace]

25. I know...

I am a fan of his.

De Kelley was a kind, gentle and funny man and I had the honor of meeting him many years ago (I am an unapologetic Trekkie, the real kind, not one of them new fangled ones).



David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[NYCGirl]

26. So good to see De! I, too, am a Classic trekker, and I met him

a couple of times. A lovely, lovely man.

[NewJeffCT]

30. great post, by the way

Sorry, forgot to mention that in my original response. I've never met anybody from any Star Trek, though I'm a big fan. I had heard that DeForest Kelley was a great guy as well.

[freedom_to_read]

37. I think Bones' comment on this would be

"I'm doctor, not a miracle worker, dammit."

[Heddi]

23. THANK YOU - the medical ignorance shown on this board is astounding

a simple reading through ANY high-school level Anatomy & Physiology book will illustrate COMPLETELY why Terri Schaivo will never 'get better', why she isn't 'there' to begin with, and why her body functions and doesn't function as it does (and doesn't)

Here's from my Nursing School-level Anatomy and Physiology book re: Cerebral Cortex (Anatomy & Physiology : Elaine N. Marieb : Benjamin Cummings Publishing 2002 pgs375-382)

"Cerebral Cortex
The cerebral cortex is the 'executive suite' of the nervous system, where our conscious mind is found. It enables us to be aware of ourselves and our sensations, to communicate, remember, and understand, and to initiate voluntary movements (bold mine). Because it is composed of gray matter, the cerebral cortex consists of neuron cell bodies, dendrites, and unmyelinated axons (plus associated glia and blood vessels), but no fiber tracts....

In the late 1800's, anatomists were able to map subtle variations in its thickness and in the structure of the crebral cortex. Most successful in these efforts was K. Brodmann who produced an elaborate numbered mosaic of 52 different cortical areas, called Brodmann areas, in 1906. With a structural map emerging, early neurologists were anxious to localize FUNCTIONAL regions of the cortex as well. Modern imaging techniques (PET scanss or functional MRI scans) have shown that specific motor and snsory functions are localised in discrete cortial areas called domains. However, many higher mental functions, such as memory and language, appear to have overlaping domains and are spread over very large areas of the cortex (emphasis mine).....

Some generalizations about the cerebral cortex:

1) THe cerebral cortex contains three kinds of functional areas:
--Motor Areas, that control voluntary motor functions
--Sensory Areas, that provide for conscious awareness of sensation
--Associative Areas that act mainly to intergrate diverse information for purposeful action

Parts of the Motor Areas:
1. Primary (somatic) motor cortex: allow us to consciously control the precise or skilled voluntary movements of our skeletal muscles

2. Premotor cortex: this region controls learned motor skills of a repetitious or patterned nature, such as playing a musical instrument or typing. The premotor cortex coordinates the movement of several muscle groups simultaneously or sequentially. Think of this region as the memory bank for skilled motor activities. This area also appears to be involved in planning movements. It can control voluntary actions that depend on sensory feedback, such as moving an arm through a maze to grasp a hiddne object

3. Broca's area: Broca's area has been considered to be a special motor speech area that directs the muscles of the tongue, throat, and lips involved in speech production. Broca's area becomes active as we prepare to speak and even as we think about (plan) many voluntary motor activies other than speech

4. Frontal Eye Field: This cortical region controls voluntary movement of the eyes

SENSORY AREAS:
1. Primary somatosensory cortex: Neurons in this gyrus receive infomration from the general sensory receptors in the skin and from proprioreceptors in skeletal muscles> They then identify the body region being stimulated

2. Somatosensory association areas: The major function of this area is to integrate different sensory inputs (temperature, pressure, etc) relayed via primary somatosensory cortex to produce a comprehensive understanding of an object being felt: its texture, its size, and the relationship of its parts. Someone with damage to this area could not recogonize hidden objects without looking at them

3. Visual Areas: The primary visual cortex receives visual information that originates on the retinas of the eyes
---Visual asscoiation area: interprets visual stimuli (color, form, movement)using past visual experiences, enabling us to recognize a flower or a person's face and to appreciate what we are seeing

4. Auditory Areas: Sound energy exiting the cochlear receptors of the inner ear causes impulses to be transmitted to the primary auditory cortex where they are related to pitch, rhythm and loudness.
---Auditory Association Areas permits the perception of the sound stimulus which we 'hear' as speech, a scream, music, thunder, noise and so on. Memories of sounds heard in the past seem to be stored here for reeference

5. Olfactory (smell) cortex: Conscious awareness of different odours

6. Gustatory (taste) cortex: region involved in teh perception of taste stimuli

7. Vestibular (equilibrum) cortex: responsible for conscious awareness of balance, that is, of the position of the head in space

ASSOCIATION AREAS

1. Prefrontal cortex: The most complicated cortical regin. It is involved with intellect, compex learning abilities, recall, and personality. It is necessary for the production of abstract ideas, judgement, reasoning, persistence, long-term planning, concern for others, and conscience. . THe prefrontal cortex is linked to the emotional part of the brain (limbic system) and plays a role in intuitive judgements and mood. It is the tremendous elaboration of this region that sets human beings apart from other animals

2. Language Areas: area for language comprehension and articulation. Nonverbal emotional compotents as well as speech mechanism. These areas allow the lilt or tone of our voice and our gestures to express our emotions when we speak and permit us to comprehend the emotional content of what we hear

3. General interpretation area: This region receives input from all the sensory association area and integrates all incoming signals into a single thought or understanding

4. Visceral Association Area: Involved in conscious perception of visceral sensation (upset stomach, full bladder, etc)

---

Here is a map of the Cerebral Cortex

[BurtWorm]

24. OT: Is that Michael Dunn in your avatar?

The little person who was on Wild Wild West?

[Kelvin Mace]

27. Yes, it is our very own Miguelito Loveless

I am a fan of off-beat actors.




David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[BurtWorm]

32. What a great face he had.

:cry: He died too young.

[SemperEadem]

28. Well said

Thank you for exposing the cruxt of this issue with regards to the ultra-right-wing fundamentals pimping Congress to usurp the Constitution's function. This is exactly why it was written.

[arwalden]

29. Excellent Post.

[TheMightyFavog]

33. May I use this on another message board?

This would be great to make the freeper type's heads explode.

[Kelvin Mace]

35. Please, help yourself.

I also have it posted on my web site:

www.thoughtcrimes.org

The direct link is:

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001991.html

I also just posted an answer to Wingnut congressman Dave Wheldon's letter to the editor on the issue.



David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[blondeatlast]

38. Then would it be okay for me to e-mail the article around?

I read this at work and could not spread it, although my colleagues were very interested after I mentioned it. Since we work for a government agency, throwing e-mails linked to DU, while not forbidden, just isn't a good idea.

I can't recommend this enough. I've cared for people in the same situation as Mrs. Schiavo and varying degrees of vegetative states. You nailed the situation perfectly, and I'd love to spread your wisdom and insight far and wide. I will link from thoughtcrimes to help drive your traffic, as well.

Any objections?

I can't recommend this enough--excellent work.

[Kelvin Mace]

56. Please feel free...

to forward the thoughtcrimes.org link.

And thank you for your kind compliments.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[mainer]

36. See what a headless chicken can do -- Link!

I just found this posted over on a Yahoo board. It's a chicken that lasted for years without its head. Shows that even a brainstem prep can look "alive"!

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/

[kurtyboy]

159. I've been using Mike the Headless Chicken in all sorts of contexts

This case (Schaivo), and also in my ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology classes. Mike is a chicken that just keeps giving...

By the way, for a few years at least, Mike could swallow without asphyxiating--putting him functionally ahead of Ms. Schaivo. It kills me that so many people on the "life" side think that it is abmominable for her caregivers to "withhold" even an ice-chip -- when said ice chip might in fact kill her in short order.

Idiots....

[jmcon007]

39. Last thing I want to hear.....

The last thing I want to hear from Jeb Bush and all the other grandstanding neonuts in Congress and, frankly, even by the members of her family trying to keep the shell of what used to be Terri Shiavo alive are the words after she dies, "Well, we can comfort ourselves by knowing Terri is in a better place."

[Pithlet]

40. Great post.

Interesting that none of the Save Terri crowd choose to respond. I think I'll just copy this and post this link when answering them from now on, because it couldn't be said better.

[Frangible]

41. Not factually correct

The human body is, in fact, capable of regrowing neural tissue... I for one have recovered from nerve damage to my eye... and people have in fact recovered from PVS: http://www.all.org/issues/eol07.htm. And no, trying to be funny by typing stuff about Star Trek really doesn't change basic biology.

Now, even if you want to ignore the fact that humans can regrow neural tissue, and dismiss PVS recovery, you must admit the fact that medical technology is improving, and effecting regeneration in mammals is not impossible, but a mere inevitability.

And even if you still think Terri needs to die, and considering that 90% of Americans think she should die, maybe she should, but perhaps you should look in yourself and find the compassion to at the very least give her a quick, clean death. Not even a mass murderer would be killed so inhumanely, and Terri committed no crime. Yes, her brain stem is quite capable of percieving and reacting to pain. I realize no one wants to admit biological facts that run contarary to political opinions, of course.

[Pithlet]

43. So

An entire frontal cortex has been regrown? Wow, that would be major news. Where did you see this?

You don't think that a legal next of kin can assert what their loved one would have wanted? You think that we should be able to override the next of kin's decisions because of what MAY happen in the future? Too bad so sad if I don't want to live hooked up to life support, because YOU think their MIGHT be a chance that we can grow brains in the future? We can no longer allow people to be disconnected because of possible future medical research that is likely years and years away? Future research which is often stymied by right wingers, I might add, like stem cell research.

Sorry, but nothing you've said has effectively refuted anything the OP stated. Unless you come up with evidence of a miracle brain from a reliable source.

[Frangible]

83. You're right

Neurogenesis cannot regrow an entire frontal cortex, but it can heal damage to the brain, and people have recovered from PVS, so to state otherwise is simply untrue. No, Terri will never recover with today's technology, but some people with less extensive damage can. So I hope you'll forgive me if I get tired of reading post after post of how my brain can never heal itself and how people from PVS can never recover, etc.

[Solon]

112. That no one has ever said that on this board, I think.

The brain repairs itself by reconnecting lost synapses and creating new ones. This is done by "disconnecting" living brain tissue from dead tissue and reconnecting with other living brain tissue. All done without any of these brain cells reproducing, they do NOT reproduce under any circumstances beyond the developing stage. The problem with Terri is that she simply doesn't have enough living brain tissue to make a difference. Other PVS patients and those in comas can and do regain consciousness over time, because they DO have enough tissue to regain some lost ability that they previously had.

EDITED SUBJECT LINE, didn't make sense.

[Pithlet]

129. I never said the brain can't heal itself

I said that Terri's brain is beyond healing. It's basically not there. If Terri cannot be healed with today's technology, then why is that even an issue? I still think it should be up to the individual to decide.

[Griffy]

206. Funny.. you hear it over and over and still dont get it!

YOU CANT REGROW A BRAIN!!! and even if you did "grow" the tissue it wouldnt be the brian that was there. So I will see if I'm the lucky one that snaps you back to reality (doubtful, you will defend again). Now.. if you believe in magic and miracles, please step out of the way of science and reality. Perhaps you cant quote your sources since fox and limbutt would show us why you think this. NO ONE has ever recovered in any way from this sort of brain injury. This medical debate is only the backdrop on a case of right to die, we will all die, why would you not honor her wishes, letting her go wont reduce our love for life, just an honest reaction to the suffering of another.. I shudder to think she is aware.. living in a nightmare, let her go.

[fleabert]

45. www.dyingwell.com re: cessation of nutrition and hydration as a

natural means of death.

You are basing your opinion on feelings and not facts.

re:regrowth of brain tissue, please cite one case study even remotely similar to Terri's please and I will consider it.

[blondeatlast]

51. The site equates coma and SVS/PVS--not at all the case.

I have studied coma as a hobby my entire life, as I had what they would consider a "miracle" awakening from one at the age of 7. The doctors said they had nothing to do with it, but I don't attribute entirely to otherworldly forces either (even though I do believe in God). I was lucky--extremely lucky.

I've also cared for SVS/PVS patients. In terms of neural function, the two are almost unrelated. I cared for someone very similar to Mrs. schiavo and as painful as it is to consider it, she would be better off to have been allowed to die (this was before right to die was an issue, and she was a ward of the state anyway--very sad situation).

[fleabert]

84. I never saw that on the site, if so, then I disagree with that part, but

the stories about people choosing to end nutrition and hydration as a natural part of the dying process, and what that experience is like for them was the most important to this thread, IMO. I should have linked directly to that page, but didn't have time. I also agree that people in similar situations to Mrs. Shiavo should be allowed to pass if that was their wish.

[Frangible]

72. See my reply below

Neurogenesis happens every day in every person's brain, this is basic stuff here, not science fiction. The damage to Terri's brain is too extensive but lost neural tissue *is* regrown (albeit very slowly).

That's not feelings. That's fact.

My "feelings" on the issue are that a quick, clean death is preferable to a slow and painful one. I guess I'm just being unreasonable!

[fleabert]

87. my point is that cessation of hydration and nutrition are not considered

painful when part of the natural dying process. journal entries from those lost in the woods, those that fast regularly, and those individual experiences documented on dyingwell.com cover that angle. It is our supposition from feeling hungry from missing a few meals sometimes that makes us think that it is painful to die in this manner. We amplify that empty, growling feeling and think 'it must be agony if it's this uncomfortable now', when in reality the hunger 'pains' go away after a few days.

Now the pain of malnutrition is a different animal, but that is accompanied by disease, lack of diversity in nutrition and vitamin intake, and unsanitary water. It also occurs outside of the natural dying process and is thrust on otherwise healthy individuals.

I am just saying, that even if she could feel pain, this wouldn't be painful. But, the part of her brain that feels anything is gone.

I support assisted suicide, btw. but it is not legal in fl, and cannot be used in this instance. Plus, Mrs. Shiavo did not give any indication that she would want to expire under those conditions, she did, however, state that she wouldn't want to be kept alive artificially.

[Frangible]

93. I've read accounts where it seemed pretty painful

I've read the studies on dehydration performed by the Nazis on jewish prisoners in WW2, and it seemed pretty damned horrible and painful to me.

The part of her brain that "feels" is gone. Yes. That is true. But the brain stem is quite capable of percieving and having a basic reaction to pain. I cannot answer the question of morality on whether or not it matters if a brain stem alone suffers, but personally I'd prefer to just have it ended quickly.

[geekgrrl]

132. yes, but someone in hospice care would be on pain killers for this- she

wouldn't be in pain during this process.

you can't compare it to starving in the woods or to nazi prisoners in WW2. She has and is on major pain killers, as far as I have read (I read a lot on carework for school). She is being allowed to die naturally (but with painkillers), instead of being kept alive by a feeding tube.

And Randi Rhodes talked about this today on Air America.

[fleabert]

157. again, not part of the natural process, this was imposed on

otherwise healthy people under horrific circumstances.

I would personally prefer a shot to end it all as well, if only to end my family's pain.

[Kelvin Mace]

96. Please provide links to back up your claim

My "feelings" on the issue are that a quick, clean death is preferable to a slow and painful one. I guess I'm just being unreasonable!

No,you are not. But the law says such a death is murder. Take it up with your representative.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Griffy]

207. HAHAHAHA wow you are confused.. or a plant!

You kidding right.. you know, your working to cause trouble. I was at the politics online conference in DC and I heard they have 1000+ plants in DU to create division! PLEASE.. if your not a freep .. SHOW SOME PROOF of these impossible tissue regrowth! Having a PVS diagnosis isnt enough.. if the details are too confusing stop being so adamate about knowing the truth... you are being fooled, and trying to pass this bogus info on.. notice how everyone doesnt buy it.. in fact many people DO reply to you to tell you your mistaken!

[blondeatlast]

48. Possible to regrow neural tissue, yes--brain tissue--no.

If you can cite otherwise, please do so. Please not that I provide reference service in a library and can tell bullshit from empirical research very easily--the site you link to that indicates people have recovered from PVS is the former, and I make it clear why below.

The citation you put up as evidence of people recovering from PVS equates coma with PVS--it most assuredly is not.

I have cared for PVS patients; there is no neural activity beyond reflex, and the OPs graphic indicates why in Mrs. Schiavo's case it would be impossible.

I've also cared for SVS patients--there is a degree of hope for them, I will grant you that.

People wake up from deep comas--I did.

[Frangible]

71. It is possible and happens every day in your brain

http://biology.about.com/library/weekly/aa102199.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11808011

Feel free to Google or search the NIH database ("neurogenesis"), your brain regrows lost tissue every day.

Now, is it possible for this to happen in Terri's case? No, the damage is too extensive for natural healing mechanisms. However, to state that neural / brain regrowth does not happen is simply untrue... so I get annoyed every time I read someone saying this stuff. Your brain regrows lost neural tissue every day, and you probably wouldn't be alive if it didn't.

[Kelvin Mace]

102. Ah, read the article closely

...researchers at Princeton University have discovered that new neurons are continually being added to the brains of adult monkeys.


...and increasing evidence has indicated that the potential for regrowth and functional reorganization is much greater than previously deduced.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

124. Oh, come on

There's plenty of data about neurogenesis in human brains.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=neurogenesis&btnG=Google+Search

This is hard science, and it's not even that new.

[Kelvin Mace]

143. And each article from a REPUTABLE

medical site talks about rat and monkey brains and about the possibility that this may happen in humans but no one has yet found evidence that it does.

The brain does have the ability to "reorganize" function. I have seen this in my wife as well. As parts of her brain has suffered damage, it re-routes signals through undamaged sections.

Sadly, once the damage reaches a certain point, this is no longer possible and the function is lost. This has now occurred in her feet which are now permanently numb and affect her balance and gate.

Again, while I am NOT a neurologist I am certainly abreast of the field and I can tell you that brain tissue destroyed by inflamation or anoxia does NOT regenerate.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[qazplm]

164. so I guess I am confused then

as to what your point is. You have repeatedly admitted now that in Terri's case, her brain CANT grow back, so then what exactly are you disputing since we are only talking about Terri's case?

[Griffy]

208. PERHAPS you dont understand the difference between..

a neuron and a braincell... please open your mind, many people are trying to help you understand.. perhaps you want to cause doubt!

[mondo joe]

52. Talk about not being factually correct

No one WANTS Terri to do - what is desired is that her wishes be carried out.

And there is nothing inhumane about this process - it is by and large peaceful and not painful.

[Kelvin Mace]

57. I've seen this objection

many times. In an ideal world, she would get a nice morphine push and be gone quickly. But this is the best we can do.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[mondo joe]

68. Your ideal world is not everyone's. For myself I would not choose

the "morphine push".

But I do think in an ideal world it would be an option.

[Frangible]

73. Um, what?

First, there is no proof whatsoever as to what her wishes are/were, which is why living wills are important. If she did in fact have a living will we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Secondly, I guess your definition of inhumane differs from mine, because the death she is dying is one I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Even the most brutal killer deserves a quick, clean death in my book.

[mondo joe]

75. To the contrary, there is evidence of her wishes.

And the anti-choice fucks would contest the living will - "she didn't really mean it" or "she was forced to sign it" they'd say.

Think a living will can't be challenged? Think again.

As to what's humane, you clearly don't know anything about this process, though you've imagined a lot.

[Frangible]

79. wow, thanks for the insults

She certainly doesn't have a living will, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. The only "proof" is what her next of kin claims... which is good enough legally, but I really don't believe that's definitive proof of her wishes.

As far as humane? Well, I guess your humanity just isn't up to par with mine. It's a simple fact that even a brain stem alone can percieve and react to pain. If you require a certainly threshold of intelligence before you have moral issues, I hope you enjoy pulling the wings off bugs, because I don't stoop that low.

[mondo joe]

80. Who insulted you? I never said she had a living will - I said

she expressed her wishes and there was evidence that she did.

And before you go on about how painful the process is, you would be well served to learn more about it.

[Frangible]

86. So where's the evidence?

Please present this evidence other than the heresay from other people, if you can do so I will admit I was wrong about it and change my stance.

As far as pain, yes, the brain stem has a pain response, whether or not you consider it suffering or not in the abscence of a frontal cortex is entirely your opinion. I don't want to argue about semantics.

[mondo joe]

89. The evidence is the testimony of multiple witnesses.

And this isn't about whether the brain stem feels pain or not - it about whether the dehydration process is painful or not.

If you could take the energy to actually read what's written this would be a lot more efficient.

[Frangible]

95. heh, that isn't evidence

Sorry, but heresay from a biased party is hardly evidence. Appearently you didn't read my last post at all. The fact is, no one has any proof either way of what she wanted.

[mondo joe]

97. Funny, acccording to the court it was.

And it's been upheld 19 times.

[Frangible]

99. Testimony isn't evidence

Not in court, and not here.

[mondo joe]

103. According to the Second District it is.

From the Second District:

We note that the guardianship court's original order expressly relied upon and found credible the testimony of witnesses other than Mr. Schiavo or the Schindlers. We recognize that Mrs. Schiavo's earlier oral statements were important evidence when deciding whether she would choose in February 2000 to withdraw life-prolonging procedures. See § 765.401(3), Fla. Stat. (2000); In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So. 2d 4, 16. Nevertheless, the trial judge, acting as her proxy, also properly considered evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's values, personality, and her own decision-making process.

[Frangible]

108. That is a figure of speech.

There still is no hard evidence as to her wishes. Perhaps she didn't want to be kept alive, perhaps she did. I don't really know. I am not claiming either, I am merely claiming a lack of proof.

[mondo joe]

110. So the Second District doesn't know what EVIDENCE means?

And hospice docs don't know about dying people?

Yeah I'm impressed.

[Frangible]

117. They certainly do

But one out of context quote is hardly the basis for that. Further, maybe hospices do know about dying people, but pasting a small study on fasting that was not about dying people isn't proof of anything other than fasting. If hospices have data on dying as you claim, please, present that data.

[mondo joe]

120. See below.

[mondo joe]

125. You need to learn what EVIDENCE is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3341688&mesg_id=3346847&page=

[Realityhack]

190. I fail to understand

Frangible,
I understand that you are upset about people not adminting that very small numbers of neruons are re-generated in the human brain... But I do not understand why you are claiming "factual inacuracy" The closest I can come to spotting anything in the orgiginal post claiming to the contrary is "and she would regrow her cerebral cortex." Note its talking about an entire cerebral cortex not claiming nerons are never re-grown.

Furthermore you have consistantly claimed there is no evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's as if the only evidence is one persons statement. As I under stand it there are several witnesses. Just because there is not written documentation (you HAVE heard of forgery right?) does not mean it is not evidence. You might say "I am not conviced that she wanted x even in light of the evidence" but you can not debate the existence of evidence with any intelectual honesty.

/Realityhack

[Kelvin Mace]

193. There were three witnesses

Michael Schiavo, his brother and sister-in-law.

It should also be noted that court testimony by the Schindlers stated that even if there had be written instructions, they would NOT have been honored.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

115. Now you are really talking through your hat

Testimony most certainly IS evidence.

direct evidence: Eyewitness accounts or other evidence that demonstrates a fact about the case at hand.

http://peace-officers.com/content/glossary/def-direct.shtml

evidence: (law) all the means by which any alleged matter of fact whose truth is investigated at judicial trial is established or disproved.

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/evidence


"Relevant evidence" means evidence having any tendency to make the existence of any fact that is of consequence to the determination of the action more probable or less probable than it would be without the evidence.

http://www.courts.state.nh.us/rules/evid/evid-401.htm

[mondo joe]

118. Didn't you hear? When legal authorities say "evidence" it's just a

figure of speech.

Or so I'm told.

[qazplm]

166. as a lawyer

let me assure you, testimony IS evidence...it's testimonial evidence.

Were we to follow your standard, no one could ever be convicted of slander, after all, the only evidence of the slander would be testimony.

[fleabert]

92. Her husband and others. she mentioned her wishes while in attendance

of funerals.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

145. The law is very clear on this matter,

and you're skipping over it very conveniently.

The law says the next-of-kin speaks for the patient when she has no voice. That issue has been litigated ad nauseum, and the courts have ruled - every time, in 26 different forums - that Mr. Schiavo is, indeed, competent and obligated to fulfill his wife's wishes.

You're putting a gloss on this that's inappropriate. The part of Mrs. Schiavo's brain that would experience pain is no longer there. She is, in effect, a shell, or, in reality, a corpse who has been maintained on life support for fifteen years, an ungodly and surprising length of time. That she's lasted so long is a tribute to the care given her by her husband.

[Kelvin Mace]

146. Thanks. Now

could you explain to Frangible that testimony *is* evidence?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

149. Not without a fat retainer

I don't work cheap, and when I'm dealing with clients who think with their asses, I charge extra.

You did great, KM. Thanks.

[qazplm]

165. I dont mind pulling the wings off flies...

but thats my own pecadilloe, the bottom line is that while pain avoidance is certainly a consideration, it is LESS of a consideration when there isnt a sentient, cognizant entity to feel that pain.

At this point, Terri doesnt exist as a living human being, she is a body that still has some autonomous functions going on.

[Kelvin Mace]

104. This is not so

First, there is no proof whatsoever as to what her wishes are/were, which is why living wills are important. If she did in fact have a living will we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you are not going to read the proof offered,why post? The court found "clear and convincing" evidence to deduce Mrs. Sciavo's wishes.

READ the GAL's report.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

109. I *did* read it

I'm sorry, but I just don't consider testimony to be absolute proof. I'm aware that the wishes of her next of kin are good enough legally, and I am not debating that. What I am debating is that there is a lack of hard proof here.

[mondo joe]

111. "Proof" is not the standard. "Evidence" is.

[Frangible]

114. As I said, the testimony is good enough legally

That's not what I'm discussing, go back and reread.

[mondo joe]

128. But when I reread I look again at the funny posts in which you

claim testimony is not evidence, even though it is.

[Kelvin Mace]

119. I'm sorry you do not consider "testimony"

as evidence, but about a 600 years of law disagrees with you.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

122. Yes well

After we get done debating semantics, can you please go google neurogenesis? :P

[mondo joe]

130. Semantics? The law has specific definitions. You should just admit

you don't know what you're talking about.

[Frangible]

134. There is a distinction between hard evidence and testimony

Sorry if you don't understand this.

[mondo joe]

135. Please cite a legal source.

Thank you.

And please note, you didn't say testimony wasn't HARD evidence - you said it's not EVIDENCE.

[qazplm]

167. gotta tell ya...

after three years of law school and four years of practice, 2 of those years in criminal law as a defense attorney, I am pretty sure I have never heard the words "hard evidence" before.

Can you tell me what that is, because I know that when multiple witnesses said that my client "said" something, that turned out to be pretty "hard" evidence...unfortunately. ;)

[Kelvin Mace]

180. I would think the only place where "hard evidence"

would come into play would be in a Viagra product liability law suit.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Griffy]

209. this guys HARD EVIDENCE is in the bible! no fact here.. miracles! nt

[Kelvin Mace]

133. The law is all about semantics

This is obvious to even someone's whose only legal experience is watching Perry Mason re-runs

And neurogenesis in monkey brains is not relevant to the discussion.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

136. Neurogenesis has been proven in human brains

I've pasted links to the information like 5 times now, is there some reason you're not reading the material?

[Frangible]

137. Here, another link!

http://www.nature.com/neuro/web_specials/supp_info/nm1198_1313/index.html

In an adult human brain even! Neurogenesis isn't the stuff of Star Trek, it's something brains have been doing for millions of years.

Be happy! Your brain healing itself is a good thing.

[mondo joe]

138. Funny, the 1st sentence in your link says it has NOT been demonstrated

in adult humans.

"The genesis of new cells, including neurons, in the adult human brain has not yet been demonstrated."

[Kelvin Mace]

141. And I read them

and they talk about evidence in monkey and rat brains and "possibility" of it in humans.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[mondo joe]

142. Has the ritual self-humiliation ended for the night?

I wonder if it was the fact that testimony is evidence, or that the link states MONKEYS not HUMANS.

[Frangible]

150. No, you didn't.

Half my links contained information about humans specifically.

[Kelvin Mace]

152. Yes, and they talk about

the "possibility" in humans and that neurogenesis has "yet to be proven".

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

155. Provide me with a link

and quote the sentence from a reputable medical source that says neurogenesis has been proven to occur in the human brain.

The one you cited for Mondo specifically stated:

The genesis of new cells, including neurons, in the adult human brain has not yet been demonstrated.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Kelvin Mace]

156. I stand corrected

Reading much further down in one article I find:

Although our results demonstrate that cells in the adult brain undergo cell division and that some of the newly generated cells can survive and differentiate into cells with morphological and phenotypic characteristics of neurons, we have not proven that these newly generated cells are functional. We also do not yet know the biological significance of cell genesis in the adult human brain. However, this does provide a basis to investigate a newly discovered type of 'neuroplasticity' in humans, one based on addition of neurons, that has not been previously considered. Studies in rodents have shown that the adult hippocampus contains progenitor cells that can be expanded in vitro and grafted back into the adult brain, where they can respond to regional cues by differentiation into site-specific phenotypes, including neurons26, 27. The presence of progenitor cells in the human dentate gyrus, reported here, indicates that these cells also may be used for in vitro and in vivo studies of cell differentiation and possibly subsequent transplantation studies. Furthermore, environmental stimulation can influence the rate of neurogenesis in the adult and senescent rodent dentate gyrus12, 17. The potential to regulate human neurogenesis should prove to be an interesting area of investigation.

Translation: We have seen that some cells in the hippocampus appear to regenerate, we do not know if these cells actually function. Studies in rodents show that transplanting progenitoer cells into other parts of adult rodent brains results in their changing to match the cell type. Whether these cells function is not determined.

So, yes, some brain tissue appears to regenerate, but we don't have any evidence that the tissue works. Also, the regeneration that is taking place does not involve tissue damaged to the extent that we see in Mrs. Schiavo. Tissue must be ALIVE to regenerate. Live skin regenerates, dead skin does not.

So, yes, even with this, we are talking about Star Trek level tech before it MIGHT be useful.

My apologies for my error.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

147. You know what?

You just spat on everything that is America.

We are a nation of laws, not of emotions or feelings. I'm proud to be part of that system, and that it's working so well in the Schiavo case is proof of how brilliant it is.

That you deign not to accept what courts rule suggests to me that you're speaking out of your ass.

You don't even know what "hard proof" means, and neither do I. What would you like? That Mrs. Schiavo write out a letter tonight, stating her wishes?

Do you have a durable Health Care Power Of Attorney? I sure do hope so.

[blondeatlast]

53. Coma and SVS/PVS are two very different conditions. I had a "miracle"

awakening--I'm sure "dyingwell.com" would love my story, but they won't get it because they clearly have an agenda.

My recovery was pretty inexplicable, but to call it a miracle isn't the case. It was a trick of biology and medicine--and I believe strongly in God, btw.

[Frangible]

74. Yes, I realize that

And I'm not really sure there's anything miraculous about neurogenesis. If anything, it's pretty unremarkable, because of how slow it is. Hopefully in the future better medical technology will lead to accellerated neural healing and regeneration.

[Kelvin Mace]

54. I'm afraid your link doesn't hold any water.

I require hard science, backed up with links to reputable sites, not anecdotal evidence.

You cannot regrow what is dead and GONE. Some people have recorved from a PVS state. All of them suffered physical trauma to the brain. Mrs. Schiavo suffered anoxia which resulted in CELLULAR death of the brain tissue. It is gone and not coming back. If I punch a hole in your hand, it will heal and depending on the size of the hole, you may regains functional use of it. If I cut off your hand and let it rot, you will NEVER regain the use of that hand.

As to perception of pain, I am not quoting "poltical opinion", I am quoting medical fact. My mother was a nurse and I have a number of close friends who are nurses, including one who worked as a hospice nurse. She assures me (and her assurances are verified by neurologists) that Mrs. Schiavo is not suffering.

Please go and read the links provided before your post.

[Frangible]

76. Hard science?

Here are two links about it, enjoy:

http://biology.about.com/library/weekly/aa102199.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11808011

Neurogenesis happens every day in every person's brain. It's a very slow process... but it mostly cerrtainly happens.

Now, the damage to Terri's brain is beyond what neurogenesis can heal, I won't disagree with that, but to state it doesn't heal, and that no one can recover from PVS, is simply factually incorrect. Terri will never recover with today's technology, I grant you that, though.

As far as pain response, there certainly is a pain response even in a brain as damaged as hers... whether or not that constitutes suffering? It depends on how you define suffering. There is no higher self-aware brain to suffer for Terri, but the brain stem certainly can react to it.

But then, people complain about lobsters being boiled alive. They certainly percieve and react to pain as well, but probably aren't self-aware either.

Still, I personally don't like to see even a simple animal like a lobster being killed in a painful manner, no more than a braindamaged woman, when at the very least we can do is give them a quick, clean death.

We humans are so good at killing, it is the one thing that drives everything else in our culture, you'd figure that when medical technology fails we could at least get that part right.

Guess not, though.

[mondo joe]

78. Why do you think this is painful? You should review some of the accounts

posted right here on DU about family members that did it.

Or you can reference Hospice data, if you prefer.

[Frangible]

81. I think it's painful because of biological fact

It's just how the brain stem works. Sorry if that's at odds with your political opinion, but I don't think the brain stem cares much about politics.

[mondo joe]

85. But the dehydration process is not painful. Plenty of hospice data

and personal accounts to confirm it.

The first days are reported to be uncomfortable, but as the body begins to shut down it is a peaceful process.

[Frangible]

88. I can get you a link if you like

Once, I read accounts of the experiments the Nazis did in the holocaust on jewish prisoners. One dealt with giving prisoners salt water, fresh water, and salt water treated with a chemical to mask the taste of the salt to test if such a method would help German sailors survive at sea. The net effect was that all subjects other than the fresh water control group died a slow and agonizing death.

I won't go into the details here, but I will say, from even the Nazi doctors' accounts of the ordeal, death from dehydration doesn't sound too peaceful to me.

I guess it depends on what you consider "peaceful" though.

[mondo joe]

91. Please do. But you should also provide an account of a hospice patient

in a process like Terri's.

If you're interested in accuracy, that is.

[Kelvin Mace]

94. Apples and Oranges

Nazi experiments where conducted on people with intact cerebral cortexes. Again, please share your medical credentials or provide a link to back up your argument that people with no cerebral cortex will suffer the same way Nazi victims did.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

98. As I said

The brain stem certainly does have a pain response. To what degree that extends to "suffering" which is a perception of a sentient mind, I don't think anyone can say.

The Nazi water experiment trials are here: http://www.mazal.org/archive/nmt/02/NMT02-T0062.htm but I'll caution you in advance, reading about the holocaust is rather depressing, just take my word for it that people with cerebral cortexes suffered greatly.

[mondo joe]

105. You need to learn a lot more. But I can help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3341688&mesg_id=3346743&page=

[Bridget Burke]

174. He'll show us his medical credentials after we see his legal credentials..

Don't hold your breath.

[mondo joe]

101. Here's some free education for you

An extensive review of the scientific literature relevant to starvation and dehydration appears in an article by Sullivan entitled, Accepting Death without Artificial Nutrition or Hydration.

Published studies of healthy volunteers report that total fasting causes hunger for less than 24 hours. Ketonemia occurs and is associated with relief of hunger and an accompanying mild euphoria. When ketonemia is prevented by small feedings hunger persists, explaining the obsession with food commonly observed during semi-starvation occurring in times of famine or war. Animal studies also suggest that ketonemia may have a mild systemic analgesic effect. Experimentally induced dehydration in normal volunteers may report thirst, yet this sensation is consistently relieved by ad lib sips of fluid in cumulative volumes insufficient to restore physiologic fluid balance.

Two important clinical studies have been published which investigate the effects of fasting and dehydration in the patient population relevant to hospice. Burge surveyed patients at two inpatient palliative care units in Canada. Visual analog scales (100-mm) were used to assess seven symptoms: thirst, dry mouth, bad taste, nausea, pleasure in drinking, fatigue and pain. Reported symptoms were studied in relation to potential confounding variables. Thirst was considered to be the principal outcome of interest. The mean symptom rating for thirst was 53.8 mm. In multiple linear regressions no statistically significant association between thirst and fluid intake, serum sodium, urea or osmolality was found. The presence of oral disease yielded the most significant association between thirst and examined variables.

In the October 26 issue of JAMA, McCann, et. al. report a prospective study of patients in a ten-bed "comfort care unit" located within a long-term care facility. The physical care described closely resembles benchmark hospice care. "Food was offered and if necessary fed to patients but was never forced. All patients received meticulous mouth care that included combinations of cleaning, various swabs, ice chips, hard candy, and lubricants. Narcotics were used for most of the patients to treat symptoms of pain and shortness of breath when present. The dose of narcotics was titrated to provide pain relief while avoiding sedation. When the window of providing pain relief and causing sedation was small, the patients' wishes were weighed regarding the discomfort of pain vs. the discomfort of sedation in determining subsequent doses and intervals of narcotic administration."

Of 32 patients assessed by this group during a 12 month period, 63% denied hunger entirely, while 34% reported hunger during only the initial part (first quarter) of their course in the unit. Thirst or dry mouth was reported by 66% of patients; 28% transiently and 38% throughout the terminal phase of their illness. Thirty-four percent denied either symptom. The authors found that in all patients reporting either hunger or thirst, these symptoms were consistently and completely relieved by oral care or the ingestion of small amounts of food and fluid. While patients could eat or drink ad lib, the amount of food or fluid ingested -- and documented to relieve associated symptoms -- was consistently less than that required to correct dehydration or to meet obligate fluid and energy requirements.

Perhaps the most persuasive of recent articles is that entitled, A Conversation with My Mother. It is a narrative written by Dr. David Eddy regarding the progressive illness and dying of his mother. Initially published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, it was subsequently reprinted in the New York Times, eliciting substantial discussion and notably favorable public response. Mrs. Eddy was suffering from progressive debilitation, chronic depression, anemia, recent surgery and recurrent rectal prolapse. She expressed a desire to die and, in the course of relentless decline, asked her son for help. Dr. Eddy sought to provide his mother with the means to end her life peacefully. However, prior to obtaining a lethal prescription, she developed pneumonia and was hospitalized. Antibiotics were begun (we are not told why), but quickly withdrawn at the patient's request. When she began to improve despite the lack of life-prolonging intervention, Mrs. Eddy asked her son about the option of refusing food and fluids. (It was her idea.) He assured her that without nutrition and, especially without adequate fluid, the end would come quickly. She was elated and, following the celebration of her 85th birthday and with the support of her primary physician, she stopped eating and drinking. (Her last morsel was chocolate.) She died, peacefully, six days later. The description of her last few days is compelling. "Over the next four days, my mother greeted her visitors with the first smiles she had shown for months. She energetically reminisced about the great times she had had and about things she was proud of... She also found a calming self-acceptance in describing things of which she was not proud. She slept between visits but woke up brightly whenever we touched her to share more memories and say a few more things she wanted us to know. On the fifth day it was more difficult to wake her. When we would take her hand she would open her eyes and smile, but she was too drowsy and weak to talk very much. On the sixth day, we could not wake her. Her face was relaxed in her natural smile, she was breathing unevenly, but peacefully. We held her hands for another two hours, until she died."

[Frangible]

106. Yes well...

The first one didn't take the study to a lethal level, so it's not applicable. I never said fasting was horrible and inhumane, I said death by dehydration was. As for the second, the plural of anecdote is not data.

[mondo joe]

107. Blah blah blah blah

Right - the body of hospice data is bunk because you read about torture by salt water.

Fine.

[Frangible]

113. Try thinking rationally for a change, eh?

Evidence of well-being during fasting isn't proof of a pain-free death of dehydration/starvation, any more than evidence of well-being during acupuncture is evidence that being stabbed isn't painful.

No, when we talk about lethality, that's the data you'll have to use. You don't have any. You have no basis in fact to make your claim that it is a "peaceful" way to die.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frangible]

121. Hey, not bad!

You're getting there. Now all you need is a control group and the elimination of variables such as painkillers. I'll get a scientific study outta you yet!

[mondo joe]

123. Want more science? Here you go.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/11214294.htm

Starvation not painful way to die, doctors say

By KAREN KAPLAN and ROSIE MESTEL Los Angeles Times

NEW YORK — If Terri Schiavo dies from the removal of her feeding tube, her passing should be peaceful, medical experts say.

In the evolving saga of the brain-damaged Florida woman, the prospect of her suffering a slow and painful death from starvation has been a galvanizing force.

But medical experts say that going without food and water in the last days of life is as natural as death itself. The body is equipped to adjust to death, they say.

In fact, eating and drinking during severe illness can be painful because of the demands they place on weakened organs.

“What my patients have told me over the last 25 years is that when they stop eating and drinking, there's nothing unpleasant about it. In fact, it can be quite blissful and euphoric,” said Perry G. Fine, vice president of medical affairs at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization in Arlington, Va.

...

But even if her brain were functioning normally and she were aware of her condition, she would be comfortable, doctors say.

“The word ‘starve' is so emotionally loaded,” said Fine, of the hospice organization. “People equate that with the hunger pains they feel or the thirst they feel after a long, hot day of hiking. To jump from that to a person who has an end-stage illness is a gigantic leap.”

Contrary to the visceral fears of humans, death by starvation is the norm in nature — and the body is prepared for it.

...

Without fluids, the body loses its ability to maintain the proper balance of potassium, sodium, calcium and other electrolytes in the bloodstream and inside cells.

The kidneys react to the fluid shortage by conserving as many bodily liquids as possible.

The brain, which relies on chemical signals to function properly, begins to deteriorate. So do the heart and other muscles, causing patients to feel tired and lethargic.

Meanwhile, the body begins mining its stores of fat and muscle to get the carbohydrates and proteins it needs to make energy.

Patients already weakened by disease begin feeling the impact after a few days, Fine said.

They eventually descend into a coma and finally death. The entire process usually takes one to two weeks, although a patient who is otherwise healthy — such as Schiavo — could hold on longer.

Throughout the process, the body strives to suppress feelings of pain associated with deprivation.

That pain of hunger is only felt by those who subsist on small amounts of food and water — victims of famine, for instance. They become ravenous as their bodies crave more fuel, said Robert Sullivan of Duke University Medical Center.

After 24 hours without any food, “the body goes into a different mode and you're not hungry anymore,” he said. “Total starvation is not painful or uncomfortable at all. When we were hunting rabbits millions of years ago, we had to have a back-up mode because we didn't always get a rabbit. You can't go hunting if you're hungry.”

After a few days without food, chemicals known as ketones build up in the blood. These chemicals cause a mild euphoria that serves as a natural anesthetic.

[Frangible]

126. Impressive!

Yes, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

[Kelvin Mace]

90. Could you please

share with us your medical credentials?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

100. Can you share yours?

This is an ad hominem - poisoning the well attack btw, I'd suggest having a better argument than resorting to logical fallacies... but then, I find in politics, people are generally less concerned with whether or not their argument is actually correct as they are concerned with getting other people to agree with them.

[Kelvin Mace]

127. My expertise comes from my life long association

with medical professionals. My wife suffers from MS so I have spoken to neurologists frequently. I read neuro texts and articles and have a decent command of the subject matter. My mother worked in a nursing home, my closest friend is a hospice nurse. I have several other friends who are trauma nurses. We have had discussion of this topic MANY times and I trust their expertise and judgment.

You dodged the question. I assume your medical expertise is the same as your legal expertise, next to zero.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Frangible]

131. And in all this research, you've never once heard of neurogenesis?

I'd recommend you read a little more, then.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=neurogenesis&btnG=Google+Search

It's hardly the stuff of Star Trek as you like to claim. It's hard science.

Don't take my word for it, of course. But I'd hope for your own sake you do a little reading on it.

[mondo joe]

139. Are you suggesting his wife is a research monkey?

[Kelvin Mace]

140. I have heard of it

but I also read ALL of the article:

Recent experiments on monkeys have shown that new neurons are continually added to the cerebral cortex throughout adulthood. Some believe that this finding will prove to be true in the human adult brain as well.

The genesis of new cells, including neurons, in the adult human brain has not yet been demonstrated.

My wife has MS. The sclera of here nerve fibers are damaged by inflamation. They do NOT regenerate. I have seen the MRI scan and know this to be FACT. I have discussed it with her neurologist.

Please don't try and tell me what I know personally from painful and practical experience.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[illuminaughty]

169. No, regeneration has not yet occurred in humans

David, this was a great article. When I read your later post with words like "numbness" and "affects balance" I was pretty sure you were talking about MS. I'm sorry to hear about your wife.

I also have MS and as I'm sure your wife has experienced, I have numbness that comes and goes. But I have had instances where I have looked down to discover I am bleeding and have no idea how I cut myself. No feeling. Why? The part of the brain that sends the signal to feel that area is not functioning. I also have episodes which I describe by saying "my legs are gone today". No brain signal, no feeling, no pain.

My father had heart failure and was without oxygen for 17 minutes. We had seen him resuscitated successfully before but not after that length of time. His EEG was flat, same as Ms. Schiavo's. My family made the decision to remove him from life support. They told us he would pass in about 20 minutes, but it took 2 days. His breathing began to slow until he just stopped. Very peaceful.

So, like yourself, I find it very frustrating and frankly, scary, that people seem incapable of digesting the facts in the Schiavo case. And now these lunatic fundies are surrounding a hospice where people are having their last moments with their loved ones. They have signs about burning in hell and are yelling through bullhorns.
These people have no respect for the living or dying...just agendas to push and blind followers to collect.

[Kelvin Mace]

179. What always amazes me about some of these discussions

Is that when I post things like this, some people come out of the woodwork and demand my credentials. Because I am not a neuro-biologist, my comments are dismissed since I "don't know" what I am talking about. Yet, when real experts who have examined the woman at length are pointed to, they are ignored as "having an agenda".

I could trot out the the Mr. Spock/Dr.McCoy/Einstein/Jesus of neuro science and these people would refuse to accept their opinion.

I also have MS and as I'm sure your wife has experienced, I have numbness that comes and goes. But I have had instances where I have looked down to discover I am bleeding and have no idea how I cut myself. No feeling. Why? The part of the brain that sends the signal to feel that area is not functioning. I also have episodes which I describe by saying "my legs are gone today". No brain signal, no feeling, no pain.

My wife read you last sentence and said, "Yes, I know exactly what she is talking about." She had incidents of numbness coming and going, but now the numbness has come and stayed. She has had three VERY bad falls, including one at work where she fell face first into the curb (when I met her at the hospital and one of the nurses came in, the nurse got wary and asked Lisa is she "felt safe" with me in the room. She had assumed domestic abuse, so I have some understanding for what Michale Schiavo faces with people jumping to conclusions).

The scary part for me is that I don't see these people as "incapable" of digesting the facts, I see people unwilling to accept the facts.

[kurtyboy]

160. I'm no neurologist--so I may be full o' hooey, but

I don't think that the tissue in the brain or spinal cord has ever been regenerated in a mammal, with the exception of some experiements done on lab animals using stem cells.

What a human brain (or any mammal, I suppose) can do is work-around existing dead spots by sort of reengineering new pathways for neural siganlling to utilize--roughly analagous to subordinate arteries assuming bigger loads when vascular damage occurs.

But with the profound damamge that Schaivo appears to have suffered, it seems there just is not enough tissue left living to allow for even a little consciousness to return--can't start a fire without a spark...

As to the examples you cite, some of them were almost certainly misdiagnosed as PVS, some were the work-around recoveries I've described, and maybe some were out and out miracles--but that doesn't seem to be the case with Ms. Schaivo.

And all of that misses the point in any event--she wanted to be allowed to die in this circumstance--why won't these opponents allow that she should have her wish?

Is "God's gift" of free-will, or God's gift of human dignity, or God's gift of compassion less valuable in God's eye than God's gift of life? When did God tell us that? I heard it otherwise.

[Kelvin Mace]

182. The paper I read

I don't think that the tissue in the brain or spinal cord has ever been regenerated in a mammal, with the exception of some experiments done on lab animals using stem cells.

talked about evidence of regeneration of some neural cells in the hippocampus of the human brain. The caveat is that we are talking about regeneration in LIVING brain tissue, the researchers have no idea whether the cells actually worked (it is seen in cadaver brains) or they were just filling space.

What a human brain (or any mammal, I suppose) can do is work-around existing dead spots by sort of re-engineering new pathways for neural signaling to utilize--roughly analogous to subordinate arteries assuming bigger loads when vascular damage occurs.

This is exactly what happens in MS patients. They suffer an exacerbation (inflammation on the sclera in the brain and spine) and neural pathways are destroyed. The brain then re-routes neural traffic to adjacent "circuits" that are still functional. Over time, the brain runs out of functional pathways and the particular signals no longer are processed. Once these neural cells are destroyed, they do not regenerate. I have seen the MRI scans of my wife's brain and I know this as fact.

But with these folks, facts seldom enter into it.

[kurtyboy]

195. Kelvin Mace--You are right, of course, about

the cases observed in the hippocampus--I've now seen the research you're citing. But the hippocampus, if I understand correctly, is very different from the cerebrum (upper brain)--and there are also the questions you raise about the functionality of the regenerated cells---are they actually in use? (While I remain skeptical, I think there is a very good possibility they do work....in evolutionary terms this makes the most sense, but then, how to explain the appendix?)

I'm sorry for your wife's plight--my sister is just now going through episode of sclerosis--and the discussion among the specialists is whether the event is isolated or the beginning of MS--they've only found a single lesion on her spinal cord. We're hoping for the isolated diagnosis, but an MRI this week will measure another suspicious site at the base of her brain--if it has grown in the last two months, the diagnosis will be progressive MS.

I hate this disease--but I deeply admire the people who are able to cope with its challenges. I hope you and your wife are able to do so for many years.

Kurt

[Kelvin Mace]

199. Please let me know how things go

The good news is that there are a number of drugs that did not exist a decade ago which can slow the progression of MS dramatically. There are also a number of promising drugs in developement. My wife and I would be happy to share our experience if this turns out to be the case for your sister. It is not as dark as it looks.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[proudncdem]

172. not factually correct....check your facts please

No one has ever recovered from PVS after 15 years. Most people recover before around 3 years. Do some research. I think that indicates a very cautious approach for removing a feeding tube. I think 15 years is long enough to know she is not coming back. I have no idea what kind of eye problem you had. It is great that you recovered, but it is in no way analogous to the type and amount of brain damage this poor woman has.

[Beguine]

197. Actually

I think if you do a little more research you will find that people suffering from chronic illnesses who chose not to have feeding tubes or have them removed report that their is little discomfort.

Furthermore, the cerebral cortex is responsible for us caring about pain. I know I've read case reports of patients with focal cortical damage that reported being incapable of feeling pain. On further questioning, they stated that while they could perceive the pain, they did not actually find the pain distressing. I know that sounds rather vague, trying to find the specific reference now.

[Cats Against Frist]

42. LOL

"Nothing is going to change this. Not Wendi Freisen hypnosis CDs, not Bob with a truckload of Enzyte™, and not Benny Hinn and a Holy Ghost Machine Gun (pat pending)."

I think I'm in love with you. ;)

[Kelvin Mace]

55. Why thank you

you've made my day. :)

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[fleabert]

44. Thank you - Thank you - Thank you.

send this to all the news outlets please!

[outrage]

46. Thorough, concise, fabulous, thank you much...

[CC]

49. Great job of summarizing

a great deal of information with well thought out opinion. I'll even give you that The parents aren't evil and love their daughter but have to add that they are selfish too. They have put their own wants and needs above what ever Mrs. Shiavo would want and/or what would be best for her. They love is a very selfish love.

[Pithlet]

50. Not to threadjack, but CC, are those all your pets?

If so, I think you may hold the DU record. :thumbsup:

[Kelvin Mace]

59. Hey, put 'em to work...

I do. <g>

http://plan9publishing.com/sunshop/

[BrklynLiberal]

63. Going to have to g back later and order "Dead Vacuum Cleaner"

and "Chew This Book". Great pets!!! Looks like they are doing a great job running your business.

EDIT: Did I mention what a great post this is, and I am adding my vote to the GREATEST?
I am also sending everyone to your website to read it.

[Kelvin Mace]

65. Check out

"Think Outside the Cat Box"

and "Kevin and Kell".

http://www.plan9publishing.com/sunshop/index.php?action=item&id=40&prevaction=category&previd=25&prevstart=0

http://www.plan9publishing.com/sunshop/index.php?action=category&id=1

[Kelvin Mace]

66. Thanks,

I appreciate the vote of confidence.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Pithlet]

64. LOL!

I love the customer service pug.

[CC]

163. yes they are and

I hope its not a record. We just call it the zoo crew.

[Kelvin Mace]

181. Mine are called "The Four-Footed Mafia"

[fleabert]

194. OT -- that's a lot of ferrets!

back to original programming please...

[Mister K]

58. wikipedia link if anyone is interested. Pretty detailed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo

[Kelvin Mace]

61. Thanks!!!

[BrklynLiberal]

60. Excellent thread about the anatomy and physiology of the brain.

The cerebral cortex does not regenerate.
The brain stem does not feel pain or thirst.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3344232

[Heddi]

153. thanks for linking to me post

nice to have some kickys :)

[Turn CO Blue]

62. You da bomb! Quite thorough.

[Mister K]

67. Maybe you can answer this Kelvin

From my own experience, I do not believe that it's the norm to have people starve to death. My father in-law had a massive heart attack and was left in relatively the same condition as Terri. He sometimes appeared to respond to us but most of the time, he did not. They ran EEG and CT scans and determined that there was no brain activity. We made the decision that he had no chance of recovering so they placed him on a morphine drip and he was gone in less than two days.

I am curious as to why they cannot do this for Terry and why they are prolonging this. Is it for the drama or did her parents stop this type of action?

[Kelvin Mace]

70. Again, read the link above about

what happens when you withdraw the feeding tube.

I would need more details as to your father's case, but I assume they just put him on the morphine to ease his pain and he then died a natural death (did you have a DNR order?).

Giving him and overdose of morphine would be illegal, even in Oregon which has an "assisted suicide" law. *IF* I understand Oregon's law correctly, the doctor can write you a prescription for a lethal dose of medication, but you must administer it yourself. A doctor would not be allowed to give you a lethal dose of morphine. In fact, he could be charged with a crime.

Perhaps some Oregoneons can comment?

That said, the folks at the hospital may have "helped" your father along, but I'm sure the death certificate would not list morphine as the cause of death.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[sugar magnolia]

148. You're right about the Oregon law

You have to be able to self-administer the lethal dose. Doctors, family members, etc can't do it. But I have to imagine that some doctors have been quietly helping patients with this all along.

[Old and In the Way]

151. One of the most hypocritical things I hear in the arguments to "save"

Terri, is how horrible starvation is to her.

(1) She has no functional brain that can comprehend starvation....as others have pointed out, the body of medical knowledge clearly shows that starvation at end of life is not particularly horrible....in fact, it's probably the natural course for the body as it shuts itself down. But specifically, in her case, she has no high level brain functionality, so she's not experiencing anything. Yes, her lower brain can "react" to stimulus, but that is not preception of pain. Perception requires a higher brain function.

(2) The reason we have to choose starvation is because these very same people would scream even louder if her death was hastened via something like a morphine drip. They'd be calling that murder;, so they ought to look in the mirror and admit to themselves that they are the ones who have forced society to use passive, drawn out methods of ending life by witholding food and water. It is utterly shameless and disingenuous that they can pine on about "poor Terri starving to death" when it is their inability to come to grips with humane methods to make the inevitable passing more comfortable and painless (which, in Terri's case is a moot issue).

[brainshrub]

77. Great essay!

:toast:

[SillyGoose]

82. Good summary, but for point of clarification...

In 1999 Florida Legislature passed an amendment which amended Section 765 of Florida Statutes to change the definition of "life prolonging procedures" to add "including artificially provided sustenance and hydration which sustains, restores or supplants a spontaneous vital function.

[gauguin57]

144. Michael Schiavo should sue!!!

Michael Schiavo should sue the right-wingers for slander/libel (I started a thread on this this morning) ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3340564

Great summary in your post, Kelvin.

[Old and In the Way]

154. Kudos Kelvin Mace!

It's cogent, well constructed arguments like this, that makes DU such a great site to read and post to. I am totally amazed at the emotional, inaccurate distortions and outright lies that the "Save Terri" proponents use to make their case. This country is truely screwed when the brainless who seem to be running the show, place more importance on the braindead then they do on the living with brains that function.

[TheMightyFavog]

158. I got a response.... more bullshit.

Your attitude reflects the worst of humanity.

Though Terri Schiavo is dependent on others, she is not terminally ill and her overall health is comparatively good. In other words, she is not dying.

News Flash Mr. Chance. Many more nurses have come forward to support what Mrs. Iyer stated. An affidavit is a sworn testimony, not heresay.

You ARE being disrespectful when you liken Terri to a Venus Flytrap!
You base this on "cold facts" and yet you are a college student! Not a doctor.
If you were so into facts, you'd know it was bulemia, not anorexia which possibly (I use the word "possibly" very loosely) could have caused Terri's situation.
A big difference. Fact here: This proves YOU don't know what you're talking about.

No one knows if Terri could get better! Not even you!
I believe that she will not come out of this current state. Neither will thousands of mentally handicapped people. I guess we MUST starve them ,too, because...well, because, that's why. (?)

"Let's have a look at the CT Scan:"

Yes, she had a CT scan, but if you do your research on PVS, you'll see that qualified neurologists, read "fellows" and "diplomates" of the Academy, state that CT scans are non-determinative in PVS.
I still want the PET and MRI. You can't make this kind of decision based on one nine-year-old CT. How did somebody manage to post confidential medical info on the Web anyway? Did they smuggle it out? Is this a case of Rathergate or Memogate?

"As you can see, you can't think with what isn't there."

When did you examine her? Because doctors who have, feel differently.
14 independent doctors — including six neurologists — adamantly refute the diagnosis of PVS, stating that therapy would be beneficial to Ms. Schiavo, Judge Greer has consistently excluded their testimony in favor of opinions from four doctors that adhere to the PVS diagnosis.

"Future medical advances, like stem cell research, could help her regrow dead brain tissue"

You know Jonathan, no one says that's going to happen. In fact, Michael "Frankenstein" Schiavo said the exact same thing on Larry King Live. Do you get your talking points from him now?
I think you should stick to studying and leave the tv off for awhile. It certainly has warped your brain.

"Senator Bill Frist (Dr. Bill as you referred him as) is a quack..." "Because only a quack would diagnose a person he has NEVER met, never mind examined."

What praytell are you doing then Mr. Chance? Aren't you diagnosing someone whom YOU HAVE NEVER MET? Would you like to match your creditials with Sen. Frists? I thought so.
Stay in college and maybe someday you too can grow up to be somebody.

Sorry Jonathan, I don't subscribe to DC insider. Just another left wing biased BLOG which gives opinions rather than facts. It's right up there with Democratic Underground. I don't consider either one intellegent and neither should you. They just fit your agenda and mabye you'd hope would give you some credibility? Think again.

"Michael wants his wife dead"

That has been the most factual information you've provided so far. But of course I left out the rest of the sentence. Here it is....

"so he can collect the money from her settlement" and "The fund was exhausted years ago"

Actually, you're partially right John Boy.
Although Michael Schiavo was awarded six figures of his own in a malpractice award regarding this case, he has squandered the million dollars plus settlement that was to pay for Terri Schiavo's medical care. A ruling by Judge Greer has allowed that money to be spent on Michael's attorney's fees.
There's a whole lot more we don't know. These records have been sealed by the court.
What we do know is how much Frankenstein spent on lawyers trying to murder his wife.
Felos has received over $350,000.00.
Tell me Jonathan, where does a medical nurse who works at the county jail get that kind of money? Maybe from Terri's settlement? How about the $400,000.00 house he lives in? Or the Mercedes he and his "fiancee" drive around in? But now you say the money's running out, so we must put Terri to death.
That doesn't even make sense! Medicaid has been paying Terri's bills for the past 3 years!
So why end this woman's life? It's not costing him NOTHING!

" Mr. Schiavo could have divorced his wife long ago and married anyone he wanted"

If he did that, he wouldn't stand to get any of Terri's money, now would he? He's not dumb that's for sure! Here's a person who commits adultery (misdemeanor offense), murder his wife in front of millions of people and have it sanctioned by the courts?

"Dr. Wolfson, found that Mrs. Schiavo received outstanding care from her husband. In fact, he noted in his report that after 13 years in a bed, she had never ONCE developed a bed sore."

We can thank the fine nurses who cared, bathed and watched over her EVERY SINGLE DAY of her life!
Michael did neglect her in care. What do you call withholding rehabilitation? Denying Terri visits from her mother, father, brother and sister? Never being taken outdoors, feeling the sun on your skin, smelling fresh air. Letting her teeth to rot so that 5 had to be pulled. Refusing to give her antibiotics to treat a UTI (urinary tract infections) and pneumonia? Taking her from a nursing home and moving her to a hospice where people are meant to die. Refusing to have a MRI or PET scan performed on her to find more out about her injuries.
Terri Schiavo has always been able to swallow but her "husband" denied her the therapy that would allow her to re-learn how to eat even though the therapy is considered mandatory by Florida Statute 744.3215, even to those diagnosed with PVS. I'll have you look that one up as you need the practice. Afterall, you are a student who needs lots of practice.

"Theresa Schiavo's parents have allowed their love to cloud their judgment so much that they have become pawns of outside groups with political agendas"

Absolutely false. More talking points from watching the lib biased media.

"Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to kill his wife" EXACTLY! using your own words again: "he asked the court to step in"

Why?? What did he hope the courts would do? Give him permission to kill his wife.

Michael Schiavo has petitioned to have Terri cremated immediately after her death (which Terri pays for) and no autopsy is to be performed.

"Mrs. Schiavo was in a "persistive vegetative state", had no hope of getting better"

Read the Florida statute that describes what PVS is:
Florida Statute 765.101 defines a persistent vegetative state (PVS) as being a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is: a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind, and b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment.
The opinion that Terri Schiavo's behavior meets the medical and/or statutory definition of PVS doesn't take into account that she responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs and cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. These observations were made by medical professionals and are on record

The question here is, who determined that Terri Schiavo met the criteria for being in PVS?
Answer: 4 doctors were selected to be the court's medical authorities, three were hand-picked by Michael Schiavo and one was selected by Judge Greer. Judge Greer? He's suppose to be impartial!

Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by Greer, has questionable affiliations with Michael Schiavo's lawyer George Felos.

Dr. Melvin Greer insists that a doctor need not examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment.

Dr. Victor Gambone has stated that he has been startled by Terri Schiavo's awareness.

Dr. Ronald Cranford, is on the board of the Euthanasia Society of America, has ties to the Hemlock Society and even advocates denial of spoon-feeding for the disabled.

There you have it. Your four experts on PVS and who testified in court.
To say the very least, the word impartial cannot be used when discussing the medical testimony provided in this case, neither can the word thorough.
In fact, the "deck was stacked" in Michael Schiavo's favor, something easily done when one is the "dealer."
To say that there are no unanswered questions and no bias regarding the medical opinions issued in the Terri Schiavo case is to be ignorant of the facts and ignorant of the truth.

Terri "told people at various times (funerals) before her accident that she had no desire to be kept alive in such a state."

Heresay again. Frankenstein, his brother and his brother's wife testified only to this.
Although there were other's who could refute this, members of Terri's family and some of her friends. The court dismissed their testimonies because THEY were heresay. Figure that one out Einstein.

"The court found all the evidence "clear and convincing" and order her feeding tube removed. The COURT did this, not Michael Schiavo."

I guess you're not that bright after all. We're back to the begining, Michael petitioned (asked) the court to get involved.

"A feeding tube is nourishment, not life support, Not according to Florida law"

Since you seem to like laws Mr. Chance.....how about there is no Florida law which states that an incapacitated person may be denied regular food and water.
To the contrary, the Florida statutes prohibit such an act.

"The video you saw was edited to give that impression, her reacting to people"

Circuit Judge George Greer barred Terri's family from providing her with any form of rehabilitative therapy or from taking still photographs and audio or video recordings of his daughter. Robert Schindler admits that he knowingly violated a court order.
Question: How else are we to see the state Terri is in if Frankenstein refuse visits and video/audio recordings? It's very damaging to say the least if you were in his shoes.
A picture is worth a thousand words. What's Michael hiding?

"Removing the feeding tube, Mrs. Schiavo's brain that would register pain of this sort is gone"

What would be lost by keeping her alive if she feels nothing?
Then how come Terri is prescribed pain medication for menses and occasional headaches.
Clearly, she feels pain and can be made to suffer.

You Jonathan Chance, are welcome to prove that by going without food or water yourself in the meantime.

[Kelvin Mace]

161. Well, what did you expect?

<g>

So many lies and distortions, so little time to slap sense in them

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[TheMightyFavog]

162. The responder did mention DU, though!

That's gotta count for something.

[qazplm]

168. I stopped reading after this...

"An affidavit is a sworn testimony, not heresay"

so many things wrong with that statement you dont even know where to begin...

an affidavit may or may not be "heresay", sworn testimony may or may not be hearsay...

the copies I have seen arent even signed or notorized and from my understanding under the standard rules of evidence unless she was declared unavailable the preference would be to live testimony over an affidavit sworn or otherwise...

the fact that something is sworn doesnt make it true, just sworn...

this guy would believe a grand conspiracy took place, he wont believe the sworn IN COURT testimony of "Frankenstein's" brother and sister-in-law because "that's 'heresay'", but he will believe the out of court sworn affidavit testimony of Nurse Ratchet because, well, I dunno I mean she signed it and everything?

Guys a nutcase.

[riffraff_va]

183. Debunked...kind of

"Michael wants his wife dead"

That has been the most factual information you've provided so far. But of course I left out the rest of the sentence. Here it is....

"so he can collect the money from her settlement" and "The fund was exhausted years ago"


No, that's not true, because if this was about money, he would have accepted a man offer of $1 million dollars to keep terri schiavo alive. So, please don't come up with with stuff that you heard on Faux News.

"The question here is, who determined that Terri Schiavo met the criteria for being in PVS?
Answer: 4 doctors were selected to be the court's medical authorities, three were hand-picked by Michael Schiavo and one was selected by Judge Greer. Judge Greer? He's suppose to be impartial!"

I thought that their was 5 judges, two on the side of Micheal, two on the side of the parents and one independent jugde. And all of them said the same thing, that her condition was irreversable.

More to come!

[Kelvin Mace]

185. About the doctors

4 were neurologists, both of Scvhiavo's, the court's and one of the Schindlers. Three presented thoroughly vetted expert testimony backed by hard science. Two presented anecdotes.

Guess which two?

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[riffraff_va]

184. go to this website

Mr. Chance I think that you should go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo. It is an unbias and great website to find out the TRUE story of the Schiavo case.

And you be shocked, but some of what Mr. Chance is saying is true.

[killbotfactory]

170. Was that hard to compile?

Because the media seems to have a problem sorting fact from slander and gossip. I don't know what there problem is, maybe you can help them.

[Kelvin Mace]

178. It took about an hour

Which just goes to shows how far the media has fallen.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[glenallen]

171. Schiavo positions-Both Sides

The medical arguments are really appreciated. Which medical school did you graduate from? Where was the residency done?

It is also interesting to note that the reported responses to Dr. Cheshire's opinion were not based on technical or medical merit of his response, but were based on the "fact" that he is a "right-wing, religious fanatic." The use of personal attacks in lieu of restating, or clarifying a diagnosis based on one's knowledge and skill, suggests that the diagnosis may not be as firm as the physician wants us to believe, or is this just the expected response from medical professionals when someone has the audacity to question their god-like wisdom?

The facts are relatively simple:
1. Michael Schiavo believes that his wife is in a persistant vegetative state from which she will never recover.
2. Michael Schiavo believes that she should die by removal of all sustenance.
3. Terri Schiavo's parents disagree and wish to continue her existance under any circumstances.
4. Michael Schiavo refuses to relinquish any control, refuses to bow out of the process and allow her parents to care for her as they wish.

This is frankly a circus that has been hyped by the media. This circus is full of the usual clowns. The left sees a great right-wing conspiracy full of evil religious people. And anyone who mentions religion is less than dirt. The right sees this a moral issue.

The facts are that neither side gives a hoot in hell about this person. Both sides see it as a means to promote whichever cause they want to push. Without the media hype, no one would care. We should be ashamed of ourselves for these actions, but we are not. Politics, not Terri Schiavo, are much to important to behave like rational human beings.

[Bridget Burke]

173. Do some more research.

There's no lack of threads on the subject here.

[Kelvin Mace]

175. Do me a favor

The facts are that neither side gives a hoot in hell about this person. Both sides see it as a means to promote whichever cause they want to push.

Go and read the summary of the Guardian's report.

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001986.html

Then come back and tell me if this is still your opinion.

I have provided links to back up my statements. If you have a problem with the evidence, pray cite your specific concern.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Beguine]

200. I'm in U Maryland's Medical School, studying to be a neurologist...

And let me give you a direct quote from Dr. Cheshire

"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her,"

"Distinct sense of presence"?!? Since when does a "distinct sense of presence" take the place of the results of a neurological exam? Even the most experienced clinician's instincts are not as accurate as a diagnosis based on a thorough exam and relevant tests. Yet Dr Cheshire himself admits that his own exam revealed "no compelling evidence" of awareness on Mrs. Shiavo's part, other than his mysterious sense of presence.

[Kelvin Mace]

202. "distinct sense of presence"

You must have missed that part in your text book.

I love how he refres to himself in the third person.

Creepy git.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Beguine]

201. I'm in U Maryland's Medical School, studying to be a neurologist

And let me give you a direct quote from Dr. Cheshire

"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her,"

"Distinct sense of presence"?!? Since when does a "distinct sense of presence" take the place of the results of a neurological exam? Even the most experienced clinician's instincts are not as accurate as a diagnosis based on a thorough exam and relevant tests. Yet Dr Cheshire himself admits that his own exam revealed "no compelling evidence" of awareness on Mrs. Shiavo's part, other than his mysterious sense of presence.

[CBHagman]

176. I'm going to keep this going.

[killbotfactory]

177. Hello? Media?

DO YOUR DAMN JOB AND REPORT THIS STUFF.

[AmyJCNJ]

186. excellent analysis

I saw this last night. And today I sent it to several people.

Keep up the good work.

Amy

[Kelvin Mace]

187. Thank you, I have posted some other

stuff on my web site and welcome comments.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Ripley]

188. Nominated for Greatest!

Thanks for posting that. I love the Star Trek references...I've been using the old "Bones" and Spock routine myself. :hi:

[Kelvin Mace]

191. You're welcome!

I was watching a fundy blather on and I thought of the woman in ST:IV shrieking "The doctor gave me a pill and I grew a new kidney!"

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[brainshrub]

189. Where did you get the image of Schiavo's brain?

And do you have a link to an analysis as to what this scan means? I can't read a CT Scan. For all I know, the brain on the Left could be the brain of a Blue-state voter.

[Kelvin Mace]

192. It came from the Miami Herald web site

There are links to the MH in the post.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[h20skilee]

196. terri schiavo

These are the most sensible comments I have read anywhere in regards to Terry Schiavo. I am really confused over all this stuff and I am sure I don't have all the facts. I do think that Michael Schiavo has a conflict of interest but that doesn't mean he isn't doing what Terry would have wanted. Does Terry want to die, I don't know but I have never met anyone who said if I am in a PVS let me go on living indefinately, I am sure there are people who feel that way but I have never met even one. I am sure that Terry's parents love her and their intentions are from the heart but I told my mother last night that no matter what happens to me if she ever posted my picture at my weakest and most vulnerable on the internet that I would never forgive her no matter what her motives are. Having said all this I am a religious person and for Terry I have this prayer, that God will take you in his arms and make you better or take you home to be with Him.

[Kelvin Mace]

198. To clarify

I do think that Michael Schiavo has a conflict of interes...

To avoid the appearance of such a conflict is why Mr. Sciavo petitioned the court in the first place in 1998. He asked the court to step in and act as proxie on the decision of prolonging his wife's life. This took him completely out of decision making process. Even if he wanted to, he could not stop the process, because his wife is a ward of the court.

David Allen
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[Heidi]

203. Kick. (eom)

[clovis29]

204. Extremely good post.

Thank you for giving a both respectful and factual summary.

[HughBeaumont]

205. ONCE again, the internet triumphs over the Republimedia!

Hundreds of people are dying in Iraq every week, our degrees are being devalued, the economy only serves fatcats, wages aren't keeping up with inflation and the "Everything is SUNNY" Media chooses to focus on this long-lost cause.

Kudos and nekkid harems to ye. Let's ALL continue to do the media's job FOR them.