Did Michael Schiavo beat Terri? Village Voice article

[Zuni]

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0347,hentoff,48738,6.html

from the Village Voice by Nat Hentoff

[sniffa]

1. i beat her

i'm responsibLe.

[LynneSin]

3. I didn't think you were that type of guy

:cry:

[Zuni]

9. At least you came clean

now at least we found the 'real batterer'

[Az]

2. All the doctors say no so far

Its just inuendo and desperation from the family. Trying to find any means to take custody.

[Zuni]

7. This isn't from the family

this is from Michael Baden, PHD--the world's most well known Forensic Pathologist, former chief of New York State's Forensics Lab.
He is now the Host of Autopsy on HBO.

I would NOT discount his opinion.

[Connie_Corleone]

10. Did Baden know she was bulimic??

I didn't read that in the article. Bulimia would answer the question of why she had a chemical imbalance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

He Is Saying That The Chemical Imbalance Which Allegedly

was caused by her bulimia can not have caused the blockage of oxygen to her brain because she had a healthy heart...


He is saying that the chemical imbalance didn't adversely affect her heart and cause the blockage of oxygen to the brain because she has a healthy heart...

[Zuni]

22. I am sure he went over the case

this guy is not an amateur hobbyist. If he said anything, he would have reviewed the whole medical file on Terri

[moobu2]

120. Dr. Baden also testified that O. J. Simpson

couldn't have possibly murdered Nichole Simpson and Ron Goldman all O. J. had to do is pay him $50,000.

He's a hired gun and will say anything for $$

As far as the rest, it's just a bunch of false accusations from the anti-abortionists who are financially supporting the Schindlers.

[mondo joe]

20. Well if someone from HBO said it it must be true! Now let's go shoe

shopping!

[Zuni]

24. He is not just from HBO

He is a world famous Forensic Pathologist, former head of NY State's crime lab.
He is not a lay person offering an opinion.

[Az]

Meaning he has followed the money

Nothing against him on that count. Just that he is now in the fame and fortune game. He has not examined Terri. Other doctors have. They do not report signs of abuse. And they looked for it.

[Zuni]

57. In 2005, an examiner is not going to find signs of a 1990 beating

But based on medical reports made at the time, Baden concluded that something other than Bulimia caused her collapse

[mondo joe]

59. But whhen it DID happen multiple physicians did NOT find that - not even

in the malpractice case which found that it WAS caused by the bulimia.

Why didn't the defense in that case put forth the evidence Baden suggests?

[Zuni]

61. read the article

[mondo joe]

64. Read the court case. Please.

[Lerkfish]

119. what is the agenda here? by discrediting Mr. Shiavo, you accomplish...what

exactly?

no, no, really, answer the question.

by making slanderous, baseless accusations against the husband, this affects her current situation and the legitimacy of Jeb bush to reinsert the tube....how?

It smacks of rovian strafe and smear tactics.....mmmmkay, but after you strafe and smear the husband...then what? does that now make it Delay's jurisdiction to overule the judge's decision on her care?


WTF are you accomplishing, really?

[mondo joe]

31. And you'd think a physician would know better than to suggest

a "diagnosis" on someone he hasn't examined.

[Zuni]

66. doctors review case records all the time

it is not uncommon to review cases when there is doubt involved

[mondo joe]

77. You mean when called to do so by the court

and under sworn testimony.

Or does he do all his commentary on HBO?

[Zuni]

84. He is a former head of NY State's crime lab

He has testified in hundreds of cases. Just because he retired and now works for HBO is no reason to doubt his credibility

[mondo joe]

87. The fact that he hasn't examined the pt is reason enough to

doubt his credibility.

How many physicians are required before a case can be closed? 8? 12? All of them?

[Weembo]

93. As we in Houston can attest

Being the head of an area's crime lab is not necessarily a glowing recommendation. "What was it that you wanted me to find, Mr. D.A.?"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. This Michael Baden

http://www.selets.com/Dr.Baden_Bio.htm

Michael M. Baden is a Board-certified, forensic pathologist, former Chief Medical Examiner, New York City and author of “Dead Reckoning: The New Science of Catching Killers.” In addition to maintaining a private practice, Dr. Baden is the co-Director of the New York State Police Medico-Legal Investigation Unit. After receiving his Medical Degree in 1959 from New York University School of Medicine, Dr. Baden interned in New York City hospitals. From 1961 to 1986, Dr. Baden worked in the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in New York City and was the Chief Medical Examiner from 1978 to 1979. He was also the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner for Suffolk County from 1981 to 1983. Dr. Baden has held professorial appointments at Albert Einstein Medical School, Albany Medical College, New York Law School and John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Dr. Baden has lectured at numerous universities, has been affiliated with the New York State Police for twelve years and has worked closely with the New York State Police Child Abuse and Violent Crime Analysis Unit (VICAP). He has served as the President of the Society of Medical Jurisprudence and Vice President of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. He was the Chairman of the Forensic Pathology Panel of the U.S. Congress Select Committee on Assassinations that investigated the deaths of President John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Dr. Baden has been involved as an expert in forensic pathology in many cases of international interest, including:

The examination of the remains of Tsar Nicholas of Russia and his family
The death of John Belushi
The re-autopsy of Medgar Evers, Civil Rights Leader
The death of Billy Martin
The deaths of Mary Beth Tinning's nine children
The exhumation and re-autopsy of the five Hoyt children who were murdered by their mother
The re-examination of the Lindbergh kidnapping and murder
Autopsies of the victims of TWA Flight 800
Dr. Baden has also served as an expert witness for the defense in many criminal cases, including the Claus Von Bulow murder trial, Marlon Brando's son's murder trial, as well as the O.J. Simpson trial. Dr. Baden has also served as an expert witness for the prosecution in the case of State of Nevada v. Tabish and Murphy, the highly-publicized trial of the murder of casino mogul, Lonnie “Ted” Binion.

During his career, Dr. Baden has been published in numerous national and international medical journals. He has also published factual accounts of several of his cases in the books “Unnatural Death, Confessions of a Medical Examiner” and “Dead Reckoning – The New Science of Catching Killers.” In addition, Dr. Baden has been the subject of nine (9) HBO specials beginning in 1994 and continuing through the present, including a “Best of” which highlights several of his interesting cases to demonstrate the value of forensic sciences allied with solid police investigative techniques in homicide investigations. Dr. Baden is a medical commentator for the Fox News Channel, the Catherine Crier Show (Court TV) and MSNBC.

[ultraist]

98. Commentator for Fox, expert witness for OJ & Von Bulow

expert witness for the defense in many criminal cases, including the Claus Von Bulow murder trial, Marlon Brando's son's murder trial, as well as the O.J. Simpson trial

He helped two high profile wife abuser/murderers. What does that say?

Sounds like he is a high dollar hired gun.

[oldcoot]

108. He might want to remove the Binion Case from his resume

Both Sandra Murphy and Rick Tabish were acquitted during the second trial, largely based on the fact that the defense was able to produce nine experts while the prosecution only produced one, Dr. Baden(http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2004/nov/24/517879149.html?Sandra%20Murphy%20and%20jurors). These experts all testified that Baden's theory about how Murphy and Tabish were killed was not based on "science" and instead was "outrageous" and "impossible" (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2004/nov/24/517879504.html?Michael%20M.%20Baden). One of these experts was Dr. Cyril Wecht, a friend of Baden's (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2000/sep/15/510771290.html?Michael%20M.%20Baden).

While I do not necessarily agree with the jury placing such a high importance on the quantity of expert witnesses, I would caution against making any assumptions about Schiavo's innocence or guilt based simply on Dr. Baden's opinions.

[Corgigal]

23. Agreed

We at least owe that to Terri. If the x-rays show old injuries and if local law enforcement has a history to where they use to live then we need to look at that. Wouldn't it be a kick if Terri dies and then at a later date the husband goes up for trial for domestic abuse.

Dr Baden wouldn't just jump in there. He was the head ME in NYC for several years I believe.

[mondo joe]

38. But the X Rays don't show that. Read the court transcripts.

Multiple radiologists found NO indication of that sort of trauma.

Even in the original malpractice case none of the defendants claimed it.

[Ruby Romaine]

35. didn't Baden say Laci was killed by a satanic cult?

I think he's had many scandals- likes the limelight!

[NashVegas]

63. He Is a Strategist Looking to Increase His Fame and Fortune

feh.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Five Dispassionate Points...

Nat Henthoff is a renowned civil libertarian


The Village Voice is a decidedly left of center newspaper...


Michael Baden is one of the most respected and acclaimed forensic pathologists in the nation...


The doctors in this case have mainly spoken to the state Ms. Schiavo is not to sequelae of events that led to this state...


When the emts arrived at the Schiavo home pursuant to the 9-11 call they were originally suspicious of the circumstance in which they found Ms. Schiavo and notified the police...

[vi5]

13. You left out that Hentoff is a rabid pro-lifer as well...

Just as important as all the other points you made. It's not like he's without an agenda here.

[Dr.Phool]

41. He is rabidly anti-abortion

But he writes a lot of well reasoned articles, mainly on first amendment rights in other publications.

I've lost all respect for him over this one.

[vi5]

51. I have always enjoyed his first amendment writing...

...but when he gets outside of that realm he loses me.

[formernaderite]

50. That's because he's also an atheist....

many atheists, like myself are pretty squeamish on life issues. I just don't inflict my views on others.

[vi5]

55. How does him being an atheist matter?

I'm an atheist as well. My point was mostly that it's not like he's someone without an axe to grind or an agenda on this. He may be an atheist but he is closely alligned with the anti-choice movement. So like Randal Terry and his ilk, Hentoff is clearly looking to spread any information which strengthens his standpoint and casts doubt on Michael Schiavo.

[geek tragedy]

14. Hentoff was a big fan of the Swiftvets--wrote a column praising them

Not worth reading anymore, imo

[Zuni]

15. exactly

This is not coming from the wing nuts in some radical fundie group---this is coming from a liberal paper, with a libertarian writer quoting a very well known expert on Forensics.

There might well be credibility to Baden's claims

[mondo joe]

28. Actually, Hentoff is a wingnut on right to choice

[Connie_Corleone]

18. self delete-answered

[Az]

19. Fame is not respect

HBO is not a medical journal. Baden has not directly examined her. The doctors that have do not report signs indicitive of abuse.

[Zuni]

27. But he has gone over the records

and has offered his opinion.
He is not HBO's doctor, he was head of the crime lab in NY State for many years and is one of the world's premier Forensic Pathologists. He should not be brushed off as an HBO hack.

[Az]

33. Nor should the attending doctors be brushed off

My support goes towards those that have had their hands directly in the process. Not some individual that was likely approached by supporters of the the Schindler family looking to dig up some way of changing the outcome.

[Clark2008]

21. The Village Voice is owned by Murdoch Holdings... n/t

[mondo joe]

26. 1. Baden never examined Terri and MULTIPLE physicians who DID

disagree.

2. Hentoff is a rabid right to lifer and kiss my ass

3. In the malpractice trial in which physicians were found responsible for Terri's state not even the defendants ever suggested Michael was responsible

[Connie_Corleone]

30. Exactly!

Terri's parents had nothing but praise for Michael before they found out that they weren't going to get any of the settlement money about 7 years ago.

[Zuni]

34. Hentoff's bias doesn't change Baden's opinion

he never alluded to examining her.
But reviewing the medical findings, he found things he thinks are red flags in her medical report.

[Ripley]

39. You mean like Frist did?

So you think we should believe Frist's assertions too? He also reviewed the medical findings and found things he thinks are red flags.

[mondo joe]

40. You mean Baden's uninformed opinion

And her medical records have been reviewed multiple times in multiple cases and appeals.

Shame on you.

[Zuni]

54. He is talking about the medical report from 1990

He looked at it and said that he doesn't believe this was caused by bulimia
He found a number of red flags that point to abuse.
I don't think it is far fetched

[mondo joe]

65. Of course YOU don't think it's far fetched - you are grasping

at straws to support your predetermined conclusion.

[Zuni]

70. and you are not?

You have already decided that your version is the only one that is credible, and that everyone else is a paid agent of Randall Terry

[mondo joe]

76. Nope - I'm trusting the facts of the case. Not gossip or

personal smears made Swift Boat style.

[Zuni]

78. Dr. Baden is a forensic pathologist

of high standing. Why would he make false accusations or raise questions?
It doesn't add up. I think his opinion should at least be taken into account.

[mondo joe]

85. For more celebrity.

He's a CELEBRITY after all.

And why should his opinionbe taken into account more than any other physician?

[Ruby Romaine]

44. hentoff is PRO-FETUS

very anti women's choice

[H2O Man]

29. I think that

it is a separate issue. There appears to be some evidence that there may have at some point been issues of domestic violence. But the court process that is unfolding is entirely separate from this, as there is no evidence that connects the rumored domestic violence with the right to life vs right to die case being heard in court. It is indeed sad that anyone would try to use this issue to disguise the issues.

[atommom]

4. Whether he did or not, she is still in a vegetative state.

And wasn't she an anorexic? That does sometimes result in heart failure.

If he did batter her, of course he should be prosecuted. But the fact remains that she's been in this condition for many years. It's even more tragic if this situation is a result of domestic violence. But the true Terri died many years ago when she incurred this brain damage. What we see now is just an empty shell.

[lonestarnot]

5. Pllllllease!

[Connie_Corleone]

6. BULIMIA!!

[underpants]

8. Let's ask the guardian ad litem appointee-Jay Wolfson

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-locmiket25022505feb25,0,566960.column?coll=orl-home-headlines

That said, I begin with the most explosive allegation:

Did Michael try to kill Terri?

Wolfson laughs. "No!"

In 1990, Terri went into cardiac arrest, which shut off oxygen to her brain. A potassium imbalance, perhaps caused by an eating disorder, triggered the attack.

[Zuni]

12. I saw Wolfson on the news last night

and he had to sit next to Carla Iyer, the pyscho ex-nurse who claims Michael said "when is the bitch gonna die", that Terri spoke, and that Michael injected her with insulin to kill her.

He seemed completely reasonable. I was just pointing out the opinion of another doctor.
I in no way believe Wolfson is incompetent. He said Terri was well taken care of.

[underpants]

67. What show?

Iyer was on Hannity's show (I watched about as much as I could stand) last night.

Wolfson was on ABC WNT the other day as part of a NEWS STORY pretty much destroying the RW arguments.

[Zuni]

72. I am not sure

but they were interviewed sitting right next to each other. I found Iyer completely unbelievable. Her story did not have a ring of truth at all to it. It was nonsense.

It might have been Greta van Susteren.

[underpants]

97. Apparently Iyer was on EVERY Fox News show yesterday

Just in case you missed her "story"

Greer dismissed Iyer's charges, noting that they -- along with a similar affidavit given by Heidi Law, another nurse who formerly took care of Terri Schiavo -- were "incredible to say the least" and that "either in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo." From Greer's decision:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503230001

[Ripley]

16. So, there is a conspiracy?

And all of the doctors, courts and witnesses involved are standing firm to protect a wife-beater who attempted murder?

I don't know how so many people could be fooled. That's usually a sign that this is hysteria and last-minute maneuvering. The guy admits any injuries showing up on a scan could have been from a car accident or a fall, so why assume they come from spousal attempted murder? Are there police reports against Michael for abuse?

[Connie_Corleone]

25. We don't need no stinkin' reports!

We only need accusations!

[Ripley]

32. See, that is starting to bother me.

There are so many female DUers saying just THAT! Hey, I don't want to let him get away with attempted murder. But every single source for his "dirty deeds" has been total bullshit. The nurse who claims he was injecting her with insulin. The parents who claim he didn't take care of her (contrary to all evidence that he did and THEY didn't). And now oh, hey! A liberal paper says he could have beat her, so it must be true!

This guy is no different than Frist. Maybe he is an expert, but he did not examine her or discuss her case with her doctors, so he is guessing.

[HeeBGBz]

47. The V V is just a shadow of it's previously liberal self

I think it's all bullshit.

For the record, I'm female and survived an abusive marriage.

[seabeyond]

17. does anyone know, and do we feed such a horrid rumor and gossip

without any evidence what so ever. it has been in front of 19 judges and how many doctors. and never was there mention of it. the family supported michael until he started talking taking tube out, 7 years into it, and they never mentioned it

does anyone know

why would we spread such gossip about a person

oh, because that is what we do now as a nation, now that the christians have taken over. we liie and gossip and are ugly in the name of jesus

[Dr.Phool]

37. I used to have some respect for Nat Hentoff

But this article turns my stomach. Classic character assasination. No evidence whatsoever. "Could have", "May have", and Greta Sustern is real hard evidence.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I Thought Gretta Was Merely The Interlocutor...

His article rests on assertions made by Dr. Michael Baden who we have already established is one of the most acclaimed forensic pathologists in the nation...

[Azathoth]

42. I'm not a pathologist, but I would think the doctors who initially treated

Terri would have been able to tell the difference between brain damage caused from cardiac arrest, and brain damage caused from blunt trauma to the skull. If Michael had beat the shit out her until she went into a coma, I think at least one of the doctors would have noticed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I Believe Dr. Baden

would point to possible stragulaton as the cause of injury not blunt trauma to the skull...

[Connie_Corleone]

46. And the physicians who actually examined her found no

evidence of abuse. That's why charges were never brought against Michael.

[Azathoth]

53. He refers to the bone scan indicating a head injury

and says that head injuries can lead to persistent vegetative states. Unless he's suggesting that she was both strangled and hit in the head. Either way, I would expect a competent physician to recognize signs of either severe skull trauma or strangulation when treating a patient.

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. the bone scan referred to multiple bruises* ...

Please reread the article...



I'm not a doctor but I believe bone scans can discover breaks and what not but not the vintage of the breaks... I guess a physician could look at the surrounding area and try to determine the vintage by looking at the healing process in the surrounding area...


My only point is that Dr. Michael Baden isn't a quack... He's a renowned forensic pathologist; arguably one of the most acclaimed in the nation...

[buzzard]

80. I have had many bone scans all showing areas of increased uptake that

could look like old fractures but that is not what they were. There are other reasons for bone scan abnormallities.

[mondo joe]

83. But those wh examined her were physicians - plenty of them -

and none found this to be the case.

[Azathoth]

88. He doesn't mention strangulation though

All he talks about is the bone scan and the fact that it might indicate blunt trauma. The part about being strangled is just another accusation from the Schindlers. I have no idea whether or not Terri was abused. However, if she had been violently beaten/strangled into a coma, I'm fairly certain that somewhere along the line one of her attending physicians would have noticed it.

[mondo joe]

48. I'm ashamed of you Swift Boat Veterans for Terri - falling for the same

crap the Swift Boat vets used on John Kerry - pushing gossip and innuendo and "renowned experts" over the actual case and law.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. I Don't Think It's Fair To Lump Dr, Baden In With The Swift Boat Vets...

The Swift Boat Vets had an ideological axe to grind and made no bones about it...


Dr. Michael Baden appears to be offering his opinion based on his education, training , and experience...


Now a worthy debate would confine itself to the following issues...


Does Dr. Michael Baden have the education, training and experience to offer such an opinion?

and

Does Dr. Michael Baden have sufficient information to form such an opinion?

Everything else is commentary...

[mondo joe]

58. I meant you.

Baden's opinion is not based on the patient, and flies in the face of every physician who has examined Terri.

A WORTHY debate would not place the commentary of a physician who has not even examined the pt on the same footing with legal testimony by those who did.

And I remember plenty of "experts" speaking against Kerry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Why Are You Inferring From My Commnents That I Support This Allegation

I am just saying I respect Dr. Baden and find his findings interesting...


It's really puerile to attack the person making an argument or stating a fact because you don't like that person as some are doing with Mr. Hentoff or Dr. Baden..

In academic circles where logic reigns supreme these arguments are frowned upon and considered unworthy..

If Adolf Hitler said there are twelve inches in a foot I would be inclined to believe him...

As far as the Swift Boat Vets their accusations rested on differing recollections of past events... I don't really see where expert testimony could help us find the truth except perhaps in the area of what constitutes a self inflicted wound for purposes of awarding the Purple Heart...

[mondo joe]

95. In academic circles these sort of smears would be considered

unworthy.

It's no different from the Swift Boat Vets trying to smear someone and call into question well established and documented facts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. How Is It A Smear...

A renowned forensic pathologist is questioning the genesis of an injury ;nothing more or nothing less...


I still see Dr. Cryril Wecht on tv challenging the validity of the "magic bullet" theory as espoused by the Warren Commision...There were many fine men on that panel inluding the late Supreme Court justice Earl Warren...


Is Dr. Wecht smearing them...


I do find Dr. Baden's observations interesting especially coupled with the fact that the emts who arrived on the scene notified the police that they found the events surrounding Ms. Schiavo's injury suspicious...

I am not making an accusation... I have been careful not to... A review of my posts on this issue will demonstate that..But I find it interesting...

[mondo joe]

104. What does "renown" have to do with actually examining the pt?

[Zuni]

60. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Yeah, this is the same. A renowned forensic scientist looked at her medical records and made a conclusion different than yours! Well, we might as well trust Mondo Joe and his vast knowledge of forensic pathology over Dr. baden.

[mondo joe]

68. No,not different than mine. Different than EVERY physician who

was actually involved in the case.

Sorry - I know you're star struck.

[Zuni]

75. actually, many physicians

have disagreed strongly.
But that doesn't fit into your view of the world.

[mondo joe]

79. Really? LINK PLEASE.

I've reviewed the court case and didn't come across ANY physicians supporting this new smear.

[Zuni]

86. the only ones who did were the 3 court appointed ones

The Schindler's doctors were all left out, but 33 filed a brief with the court that was ignored.

[mondo joe]

92. Incorrect again. LINK PLEASE.

The Schindler physicians did not argue that at all. They argued that Terri could recover, but since they had no medical data to support their claims they didn't get far.

LINK PLEASE.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Are We Discussing The State She Is Now Or How She Got Into That State?

Those are two different questions....

[Suziq]

49. The Malpractice Suit . . .

filed by Michael would never fly if beating her was the reason she is in the state she is in today.

Why no mention of beatings until now? For Christ sake, it has been over 15 years!

The Schindlers are desparate and the smearing of Michael is absolutely disgusting.



:hippie:

[salin]

73. Boom - there it is...

the doctor, hospital and their insurance carriers and ALL of their lawyers would have been able to avoid the big settlement if they were able to prove a history of abuse or even an incident of abuse that could be the "cause" of her condition.

Do we really think that they would avoid this line of investigation during their law suit?

[Walt Starr]

56. The court alread said no

That article is from November of 2003. The court has ruled and said, NO, there was no abuse.

[Spazito]

69. I give little credence to someone who has not examined the

person they are espousing their opinion about, it is simply their opinion as opposed to those who have ACTUALLY examined the person. Baden seems to be very 'media' addicted, imo. He seems to espouse a lot on cases he had nothing to do with other than be asked his opinion on cases he has had nothing to do with.

I give credence to the experts actually involved in this case and there have been enough of them, imo, to negate Baden's opining.

He is entitled to opine, I am entitled to give him no credence regardless of his curriculum vitae, it carries little weight if he has not actually examined or been part of the case.

[Bouncy Ball]

71. It is my educated and knowledgeable opinion,

after having read every document available to me on Terri's case, that Terri was actually abducted by aliens from the planet Tralfamazar in 1990 and THIS Terri is a person they sent back to take her place (we didn't even notice it happening), but they got the human physiology wrong when they were doing the cloning and that's why she's in a persistent vegetative state now. The Tralfamadorians are mighty apologetic about this, but nothing can be done about it now.

[jdj]

82. no shit.

this is a trap.

Nobody knows but her doctors and care-givers, besides Michael and Terri.

And I hate to say this, but it's kind of beside the point. Her present condition is her present condition, regardless.

The only point of contention is her wishes about what to do about it.

Which none of us should be involved in anyway.

[Bouncy Ball]

90. BINGO!

We have a winner:

"Which none of us should be involved in anyway."

[Bridget Burke]

81. Nat Hentoff went around the bend years ago.

Don't you think the Defense in the malpractice suit would have cried abuse if they had any grounds at all? Did they just pay up out of the kindness of their hearts?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. They Might Have Been Afraid Of Inflaming The Jury And Getting

Even A Bigger Adverse Verdict...

[Bridget Burke]

99. If the doctors at the scene couldn't prove abuse...

Why do you think a grandstanding expert knows better--separated by time & geography?

[mondo joe]

100. Is wild unfounded speculation approved in academic

circles?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. I Am A Layman So Correct Me Where I Am Wrong..

Physicians have theorized that Terri Schiavo fell into a persistent vegetative state because her heart stopped for some six to eight minutes causing a blocking of oxygen to her brain...


Physicians have further theorized her heart stopped because her bulimia resulted in an elctrolyte imbalance...


Dr. Baden contends this is not likely because he says she had a healthy heart...

[mondo joe]

103. Why have none of the physicians - including the attending, and

including those who were sued for malpractice - found this to be the case?

What would likely make the small army of physicians INTIMATELY involved in the case fail to mention this - even in a malpractice suit?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

105. I Don't Know...

I'd like to see other forensic pathologists weigh in...

[mondo joe]

107. Why forensic pathologists?

How about actual physicians who actually deal with patients like Terri, particularly those with some knowledge of bulimia.

Didn't THEY weigh in at the malpractice suit?

Sounds to me like you don't like the findings that have been consistently upheld in EVERY challenge, so you'd like to find someone who will disagree.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. Dr. Baden Acknowledges She Had Bulimia....

He's not a fool...


He seems to be saying that the bulimia didn't cause her heart to stop because she has a healthy heart which is different from the argument that she didn't have bulimia...

[mondo joe]

112. Again, why forensic pathologists?

Why not a physician with experience in treating bulimia?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. He Would Be Fine Too...

but we are arguing on parallel tracks...


Dr. Baden would be willing to stipulate that bulimia can cause an electrolyte imbalance that could result in stoppage of the heart that could result in a blockage of oxygen to the brain which would result in brain damage....


He would stipulate to all that...


Then he would go on to say that based on his education, training, and experience Ms.Schiavo had a healthy heart...

[mondo joe]

117. But why does that supercede for you the testimony of the many

physicians who have examined Terri, and whose testimony has held up in multiple challenges every single time?

How many physicians do you feel it takes before a court can render a verdict?

[put out]

122. The health of her heart doesn't matter if she had a severe

electrolyte imbalance. It's not her heart health, but rather that cardiac muscle (and any muscle) cannot work unless electrolyte balance is in order. An otherwise fit individual can get in a terrible mess in a hurry, when electrolyte balance is disturbed.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

114. Gee..then maybe he could clarify why the same thing killed Karen

Carpenter.

Baden is a whore..he testifies on the part of whoever is paying him.

[mondo joe]

118. Celebrity pathologist looks for murder - who woulda thunk it?

[mondo joe]

106. And the wild speculation I was referring to was your statement about

the malpractice case and not wanting to "inflame" the jury by actually having a defense.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. Au Contraire

The poster said the fact that abuse wasn't a factor in Ms. Schiavo's injury and pointed to the fact that the defense didn't bringi it up as dispositive...


I opined that the defense didn't bring it up because they didn't want to risk inflaming the jury....


It is common practice in medical malpractice cases for defense attorneys not to go after the victims...

They usually rest their defense that the health care provider provided a reasonable standard of care...

These charges are explosive... If they couln't convince the jurors of the truth of these charges they would have paid a heavy price in the way of the verict...

[mondo joe]

111. If they couldn't convince a jury then where's the evidence

to support the claim?

And why haven't ANY of the army of physicians who have examined Terri found evidence of abuse?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. I Never Said There Was Any Evidence Of Abuse...

I just said I find Dr. Baden's observations interesting....

[Demit]

91. This article is from November 2003. Why are you bringing this up now?

Just curious. It would seem more germane to let us know what, if anything, the doctor has said lately--say, in March of 2005. Might you have anything on that in your records?

[shrike]

121. My thoughts exactly

Why post a two-year-old article? What's happened between then and now?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

96. That's a twist on the old question "When did you stop beating....

...your wife?". It doesn't matter that the person never raised a hand against his wife, the implication that he did so poisons the thinking of those hearing the question.

[oldcoot]

113. Exactly

Any one of us could be in Michael Schiavo's shoes one of these days and might be forced to make such a difficult decision for a spouse or family member. How would we feel if another family member decided that he or she did not like our decision and decided to make public accusations claiming that we beat or murdered our loved ones?