Imagine Terri Schiavo was a pregnant woman who wanted an abortion

[Heddi]

Imagine that Terri Schiavo was a pregnant woman who wanted an abortion.

Imagine that the parents of either the woman or the husband didn't want her to abort

Imagine that the "grandparents" petitioned the court to prevent Terri from going through with the abortion.

Would we still have DU'ers saying "Why doesn't she just have the child and turn over custody to the grandparents? It's OBVIOUS that THEY want the child, even if she doesn't?"

Those are the same arguments being made regarding Michael Schiavo. He should just turn over custody to the parents. If they want to care for her, let them.

Would those DU'ers who so vehemently support the parents in THIS case support the 'grandparents' in the hypothetical abortion case?

Do you not realize the ABSOLUTE ramifications of this very real case regarding Terri Shiavo and her right to die (or more importantly, the legal next-of-kin having the right to follow through with her decisions?)

You DO realize that this "case" concerns matters far greater than Terri Schiavo. You DO realize that the Right-To-Lifer's have NO concern for Terri other than using her and her medical instances as a political ploy, right?

Once the right of medical intervention is taken out of the legal next-of-kin's hands in THIS case, it has the potential to be taken out of legal next-of-kin's hands in EVERY case. In OTHER cases.

How far are we willing to allow the government to intrude upon (normally) Personal, intra-family medical decisions?

Don't think an abortion case is next? Don't think there will be some forsaken 'grandparents' beating their chest and wringing their hands at a daughter or daughter-in-law who wishes for an abortion that they object to? Don't think that THIS case basically paves the way for anyone, no matter how far removed, to interject THEIR opinion and THEIR objection and THEIR motivation into OTHER medical procedures?

Just wait.

Just fucking wait.

[LisaL]

1. There have been a case where a father of the child didn't want

the mother to have an abortion. It never went anywhere because she had a miscarriage.

[Heddi]

4. I'm speaking BEYOND the father's input

I'm not talking about the father not wanting the mother to have an abortion.

I'm talking about the woman's parents..or the husband's parents NOT wanting the woman to have an abortion, or put a child up for adoption, or take birth control, or have a tubal ligation....

The parents in this case, IMO, have NO legal say as to what happens to their daughter. When she married her husband, as good or as bad of a person he may be, they were given UNDER THE LAW, the right to make decisions on behalf of the other. Had they been dating for 300 years and not married, her PARENTS then would have the right to make decisions on her behalf (unless she had given him power of attorney or whatever other legal documents can appoint next-of-kin status to those who aren't related or considered next-of-kin by law).

However, she was married. That gave HER the absolute right to make decisions on behalf of her husband, and HIM the absolute right to make decisions on behalf of his wife.

THe parents in this case have NO legal standing. None.

And I fear that if they get their way in this instance, a great and terrible presidence will be set that allows non-next-of-kin (grandparents? cousins? siblings?) to step in and override decisions made by legal next-of-kin.

Very slippery slope, and I don't think the ramifications will be seen right away....but I guarantee you this is one very drastic step in the efforts to curb abortion rights and abortion access.

I guarantee that there will be some fundy parents, or non-fundy parents hijacked by the right-wing, who will petition that their adult daughter or daughter-in-law not be allowed to have an abortion. And the Schiavo case is putting a red-carpet down for their efforts to do so.

[Bunny]

2. Speak it, sister!

You're so right, and it's scary how many people don't recognize this.

[Heddi]

10. Even when it happens, we'll have our flock of ostritches

with their heads in the sand saying "oooh...well....it's not that bad...RvW hasn't been TOTALLY banned yet..."


I hope people are enjoying their right to medical privacy in life and medical privacy and dignity in trauma, and I really hope people are hugging their next-of-kins now and their right to make medical decisions (legally!!!) because I fear in short order those will be old-timey things that don't exist.

Want surgery? What, you're a 47-year old Married Woman? Too bad...mommy and daddy and uncle Ray and aunt Charla and cousin Chris and nephew Blake and sister and brother must all approve before surgery can be scheduled....I mean, we don't want to offend their delicate sensibilities, do we?

[CountAllVotes]

3. and to think I felt kinda bad

I cannot have children anymore. I never had any - never wanted any. I was feeling sort of bad about this aspect of my life anyway, but now, given what we are seeing, I am VERY glad!

Next:

Overturn Roe v. Wad
Keep the dead alive while we torture them
Throw the disabled and the sick out on the street because
... no more social security.

:grr: :grr:

We can't seem to win for shyte can we? :argh:

[Heddi]

5. Sadly, I think we can't win

because we're the only ones rooting for our team. Our team gets on the field and plays for the opposing teams and gives them point after point. And we still sit in the stands with our pom-poms and foam fingers HOPING that ONE DAY, our team...our once shining team...will actually make a play for its own advantage instead of giving every play to the OTHER team...hoping that maybe if we give them THIS goal, they'll give us one down the road...give them THAT goal and maybe they'll give us one down the road.

SO far it hasn't happened. Our "team" is rolling over on Abortion Rights, Gay Rights, Civil Rights, Social Security....I really have a hard time distinguishing between Republicans and Democrats now-a-days. We've stopped being the opposition party and become the enablers...all in hopes of winning an election...one day.

"If we roll over on Abortion, we can mabye get some moderates and maybe win in 2008"

"If we just let the Gay Marriage issue fall silent, we may be able to get some centrists to vote for us and that'll really give us a chance for 2008"

"You know, Affirmative Action is just a wedge issue. We should drop that hot potato and get some Moderate Centrists in our court, and I'll betcha we might be able to pull out a win in 2008"

:shaking head:

[Karenina]

11. and maybe win in 2008...

:eyes: :SIGH: Kindchen, Kindchen, Kindchen... the 2006 "vote" is, and will remain in a "lock box" unless you go to paper and pen and regain some control of your destinies. THAT IS what *IT* ALL is about.

:freak: :freak: :freak: ???WHO DECIDES??? :freak: :freak: :freak:


No, I'm not "tired" of Schiavo threads cuz what's REALLY GOING DOWN is a full out frontal assault on SELF-DETERMINATION by a *gubmint billing itself as x-tian defenders oferrraaa, freedom, democracy an the MuriKKKan Way. They are nazified theocrats be a cancer on your body politic for 50 years.

I know ya'll got a heavy percent be a bit slow but there's an important distinction between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance, unlike Terri, can be cured. STOOPID is FOREVER.

You GO, Heddi!!! :loveya:

[Heddi]

12. i've always said

that I'd rather vote for a party that stands for values and looses than be vote for a party that has no values and wins.

[TahitiNut]

6. She's not property. Yet.

There seems to be a whole lotta confusion about the moral obligations of a guardian - seeing it as an opportunity to substitute one's own choices for those of the person under guardianship.

The parents have proven themselves unfit. They've willingly admitted they'd ignore Terri's wishes, no matter how clearly conveyed. That's a clear abrogation of duty.

The same duty exists for a person with a Power of Attorney. "Duty" is a very powerful legal concept.

[Karenina]

13. But the X-tian Coalition

sees itself as the now wants police powers employed to take possession of the body. "Duty" is a very powerful religious concept, too.

You got any Jiffy Pop?

[TahitiNut]

21. I prefer nuking Orville.

:silly:

[Midlodemocrat]

7. One thing that I have wondered about from the beginning.

the fundies have long welcomed 'the Rapture'. Wouldn't they be happy for Terri? that she was going to Heaven to meet Jesus? Or is this just their way of fighting back to our claims that they only care about the pre-born?

I don't think that Terri Schiavo had a conversation with her mother and father about what she wanted done in the event of a catastropic event such as this. I wouldn't even consider having this conversation with my parents when they were alive, because I have a husband and I know that he would respect my wishes.

As a parent, I would find it very difficult to pull the plug on my child, because burying a child is simply not the natural order of things. Yes, it would be hard to bury a spouse, but if this is what the spouse wanted, it is sacrilege to keep her alive.

Pro-life? Tell that to the Iraqis. Tell that the many that * signed an order to execute as governor of Texas.

God Bless this woman, let her go. It is way past time.

[TahitiNut]

8. Amen.

Fifteen years ... including way too many ghoulish years.

[Heddi]

9. I had minor back surgery about 2 years ago

and even though I was out of the OR in about 4 hours, I still had to sign forms stating that in the unlikely event of a water landing...sorry...in the unlikely event that I became brain-damaged, or in a coma, or on a respirator/ventilator because of the surgery, these are my wishes...

I thought that I just had the option of Vent/No Vent.

Ha!

Vent/No Vent
Food/No Food
CPR/No CPR
Water/No Water
etc
etc
etc

I had about 5 forms to sign, I had to get them notarized, had to list my next of kin (husband) and who should make decisions should he not be able to (mother) and who should make decisions should the first two not be able to (grandmother).

Just to make sure my wishes were well known (which I know they are), I sent a copy of the forms to my mother & grandmother, you know--just so there was no misunderstanding. I also asked them before appointing them "second and third decision makers" whether they were willing to follow my wishes in the unlikely event that I should be not well after surgery. They were well aware of my wishes before hand and were more than happy to take the responsibility to follow through with MY wishes. Not theirs. Not the neighbor's. Not jerry fallwells. MY WISHES.

Since then, my husband has filled out similar forms and sent them to his parents as well, in the event that something happen to ME and someone needs to make decisions on his behalf.

We're only 29 and 32 respectively, but I guess you're never too young (or old) to have something horrible happen.

Luckily, I think that both of our immediate families are the type of people who would do what WE wanted, even if it conflicted with their beliefs or wishes---at least I can say that about my family since they're fairly non-religious. My husband's family is split between Catholic and Episcopalian and they have given us their word that they'll follow through with his wishes. I only hope that they do, and so far, I have no reason to think that they wouldn't.

And it is past time. It's way past her time.

[GreenPoet64]

14. I see the writing on the wall . . .

you are right--this is paving the way to change abortion laws without overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm very concerned.

[Heddi]

19. I'm sure the Anti-Choicers are scouting their flocks

for SOME grandparents who have a daughter or daughter-in-law who is pregnant and having an abortion against the wishes of the grandparents. Or putting a child up for adoption against their wishes.

Although I think, in the beginning, it would be easier for them to have distraught parents who want to be grandparents who have issues with their daughter or son taking birth control, or getting surgically sterilized. I think THAT will happen first, THEN the abortion will come next (since not many adult women/men tell their parents that they or their spouse is going to have an abortion).

We're seeing the right to medical privacy erode right before our eyes.

Cherish your medical privacy and reproductive privacy, folks. If this case is any indication, you may very well have to have your mom & dad's permission before you exercise ANY reproductive or medical choice, regardless of your age or marital status.

[Kelvin Mace]

15. I Just posted a summary of the Guardian Ad Litem's report

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/001986.html

It is quite obvious that very few people on the Right have actually read even the first page of this report, never mind all 38 pages.

I think folks on this board should read the summary, THEN read the whole report.

[Heddi]

20. I was amazed

at the part about how she had been in nursing home care for 13 years and never had a bedsore---working in hospitals, i've seen people who have been in the hospital for THREE DAYS and have already started to develop decubitus ulcers (bedsores).

Of course, that's not always the fault of hospital staff---some people (the very thin, for example) have bony protrusions that are impossible to keep pressure off of. Heels, hips, buttocks--all common sites for decub. ulcers.

Yes, I think that link is ESSENTIAL reading to anyone who has any opinion whatsoever on this case.

Particularly interesting were these parts:

The Schindlers then said that even if their daughter had told them of her desire not to be kept alive in this state, they would not honor her wishes.


12) Before enmity arose between Mr. Schiavo and his in-laws, the Schindlers encouraged him to "get on with his life" and start dating. Mr. Schiavo even introduced women he was dating to his in-laws. All of this was prior to the court award.

then this:

The Schindler’s new evidence ostensibly reflected adversely on Michael Schiavo’s role as Guardian. It related to his personal romantic life, the fact that he had relationships with other women, that he had allegedly failed to provide appropriate care and treatment for Theresa, that he was wasting the assets within the guardianship account, and that he was no longer competent to represent Theresa’s best interests.

---

So, before an award was made, they encouraged him to date, but once he got a malpractice award, suddenly it's bad that he'd dated.

And Michael's supposed to be the one with greed in his heart? hmmm..

[Kelvin Mace]

22. Yeah, I thought

those were interesting points as well. Again, it paints a very sober picture of the case.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. That's that dangerous open door we all want to keep closed

How about someone who's diagnosed with a disease that might - might - be cured with extensive, expensive, and sickening treatment?

You decide you'd rather just live as good a life as you can until you die.

Your parents or your siblings or your spouse don't like your decision, petition the court to have you declared incompetent, the government comes in and takes custody of you, and they all force you to undergo the treatment.

That's not a joke scenario, by the way.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. For those who missed it the first time around,

I posted this for people who want a durable Health Care Power Of Attorney, but don't know how to go about it, or don't want to incur the expenses of a lawyer. This a form you can fill out yourself, and I've appended all the instructions you'll need for executing it.

The site got over a thousand hits yesterday, after I posted it.

http://tinyurl.com/44wo7

[Heddi]

18. Thanks for posting that site

both my husband and I have advanced directeves---I filled mine out when I was about 26 (I had surgery and had to fill one out)---that prompted my husband (then 29) to fill one out on his behalf.

As much as I love and trust both of our families to abide by our wishes should one of us pass before the other, you can just never be too sure. Denial is a powerful emotion and I don't ever want my family or his family's emotions to be hijacked by people with certain political or religious agendas. I don't ever want their greif to override their logical and rational thought processes and cause ME or HIM to "live" (and I do use that term very very loosely) for years, decades, or longer in a permanent vegitative state because of some delusional "hope" that we'll suddenly recover and ice-skate our way out of the hospital despite all medical and scientific information that says otherwise.