Help with my Vietnam war education

[rjx]

I am trying to educate myself about the Vietnam war and just ordered "Fire in the Lake: The Vietnamese and the Americans in Vietnam" after reading a bunch of reviews on it. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679723943/103-8957990-9725408

I have also been looking at the following websites for information

http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/vwarlib/world.html
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/VNngo.htm

Besides the following, what other liberal concerns were there?

#1 Vietnamese nationalism. Underestimating the loyalty of the Vietnamese people and their ability to slaughter Americans with their guerrilla warfare tactics.

#2 U.S. said that going into Vietnam was supposed to be an easy victory. And an easy victory would be good for the reputation of the U.S. after the Bay of Pigs incident. And Vietnam was anything but easy, resorting in massive death, destruction, and poverty to the Vietnamese, and the deaths of Americans that should not have happened.

#3 The U.S. was afraid of the "Domino Theory." That communism would spread to neighboring countries, but never was proven to be true before the war.


What if any ( I assume there was) falsities and exaggerations that were given by the U.S. regarding N. Vietnam and/or communism? Were there lies given to the public then, like there was lies given to the American public now for support of the Iraq war?

[Redstone]

1. First, find out how many different wars there were over there

at any given time. You can't just study "the war" because there wasn't just one. Ever.

You'll be on the path to understanding, as much as anyone can be, if you start from that point.

Redstone

[libhill]

35. The U.S.

Missed a prime opportunity to make a friend of Ho Chi Min during World War 2. He requested military supplies from General Stillwell, American Commander in the China theater. These supplies and armaments would have been used against the Japanese who were then occupying Indochina, with the approval of the Vichy French colonial authorities. The request was denied, because Ho Chi Min was a communist.

[adwon]

2. A suggestion

Vietnam: The Necessary War by Michael Lind

The author is a 'radical centrist' Democrat. The book came out about five years ago and lays out the arguments for American intervention and addresses the arguments against intervention.

[rjx]

3. Thank you!

:)

[kclown]

4. For God's sake don't forget the Pentagon Papers.

You'll learn more than can imagine.

[rjx]

12. Thanks!

I have heard of the Pentagon Papers before, but never knew what they actually were. I am listening to the Nixon tapes as I type this and will definitely learn what these are about.

[Hissyspit]

15. There was a TV or cable movie based on Elsberg's Pentagon Papers...

revelation/experience, a year or two ago. Might be interesting to watch that.

[BillZBubb]

7. I thought he wanted the liberal viewpiont,

not the DINO/reactionary viewpoint. My mistake.

[BillZBubb]

5. There were MANY problems with VietNam.

First, we got involved immorally helping the French try to re-establish colonial dominance after WWII. The Vietnamese fought the Japanese and deserved their independence. The Japanese had beaten the French.

Second, the partition of Vietnam was a cruel joke. Both sides fudged on promised elections.

Third, the South Vietnamese governments were always US puppets and had little popular support. If we didn't like the government, it got removed. There was a sham democracy.

Fourth, in spite of the fact that South Vietnam had a significantly larger population than the North, they never could muster anywhere near the fighting capacity of the North--and that's with billions in US military aid. That should have told even the most brain damaged conservative that the situation was not going to turn out well.

Fifth, contrary to the propaganda of the time, there was no evidence of outside Communist intervention. The Russians and Chinese did not supply any significant number of troops. They did supply arms.

Sixth, also contrary to the propaganda of the time, it was clear that the North Vietnamese leadership was not a puppet of either China or the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, the Vietnamese have always been leary of China.

Seventh, the Gulf of Tonkin "attack" was a total fabrication. Our excuse for a wider war was lame and dishonest and everyone knew it.

Eighth, the draft was totally unfair and allowed well-connected assholes like Bush to get out, while the poor did all the heavy lifting.

Ninth, it was a quagmire. There was no end in sight. Simply put the US was not going to win that war without resorting to "medieval" tactics.

Tenth, it lead to the inflationary spiral of the seventies. The war drove consumption by pumping a lot of government money into the economy, but that money didn't help build domestic supply--it went to military supplies.

I could go on, but it's late.

[adwon]

8. Actually

Working Paper Number 22, published by the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, entitled 77 Conversations between Chinese and Foreign Leaders on the Wars in Indochina, 1964-77 cites a September 23, 1968 conversation between Mao and Pham Van Dong, the North Vietnamese premier, in which they discuss the fact that over 100k Chinese troops were then in North Vietnam performing support functions. This was published in 1998

Also, the Chinese government has admitted the deaths of over 1000 Chinese soldiers and more than 4000 wounded as a result of antiair defense in North Vietnam. The citation is On the Vietnamese Foreign Ministry's White Book Concerning Viet Nam-China Relations by the People's Daily and the Xinhua News Agency. This was published in 1979.

[rjx]

9. Thanks for everything you wrote, I appreciate it

So the North doing what they did to the South was a direct result of the U.S. supporting the French in trying to take over Vietnam, and the South having U.S. influence? Or am I off with that assumption?

[adwon]

11. Both North and South were client states

The Vietnamese civil war was a proxy war with the US supporting South Vietnam and the USSR and China supporting North Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh & co. were simply carrying out the Stalinist policy of exporting revolution, which the West resisted.

Truman didn't like supporting the French in Vietnam at all. He firmly believed in anti-colonialism, just like FDR. Support for the French came after Giap, on Ho's orders, purged the nationalist movement of all non-Stalinist patriots. Ho petitioned Stalin for aid in 1950-51 and Stalin directed Mao to give it. That's what got the ball rolling on US aid to France.

[BillZBubb]

24. This is BULLSHIT!

Vietnam was NOT a proxy war, that is why we failed so miserably there. Our propaganda painted it as one. The North Vietnamese wanted to unify the country, not be a puppet state for China or the USSR.

We used it as a proxy war against "Communist Expansion".

Your history of US aid to France IS TOTAL BULLSHIT AS WELL. The US supported the French claim on Indochine after WWII. Why did your right wing source omit this key piece of information?

[adwon]

28. I cited my sources

I cited 2 sources regarding the level of Chinese involvement in Vietnam. One of them was Xinhua, the Chinese state news agency. I hardly think that it would qualify as right wing, nor do I think it would qualify as US propaganda.

The argument that Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist is half right. He was a communist-nationalist who sought to unify the country under a Stalinist line. What of the fact that Cam Ranh Bay, the main US naval base in South Vietnam, became the largest Soviet military base outside Eastern Europe after 1975?

Did Ho Chi Minh seek true neutrality between the blocs? Here's reasons to doubt.

Vietnamese communists called Diem My-Diem (America-Diem), which was a translation (and revision) of the Chinese communist name, Mei-Chiang (America-Chiang). Definitive? No. Suggestive? Maybe.

At the end of WW2, the Vietminh (Ho's faction) executed noncommunist nationalists like Quang Chieu, Vo Van Nga, and Ngo Dinh Koi (Diem's brother. Source: John Buttinger, Vietnam: A Dragon Embattled

In addition, the Vietminh hunted down the Trotskyists, such as Ta Thu Thau. Source: Loren Goldner, "The Anti-Colonial Movement in Vietnam" from the summer 1997 issue of New Politics

Giap, left in charge while Ho was in Paris for postwar negotiations, used 1500 Japanese troops and sold noncommunist nationalists out to the French authorities as well. Source: Cecil B. Curry, Victory at Any Cost

A Chinese general, Chen Geng, help organize the Vietminh's military forces before leaving in November 1950 for a command in Korea. Source: Chen Jian, "China and the First Indo-China War, 1950-54" in issue 133 of China Quarterly

If the Vietminh (later North Vietnam) did not seek to be a client state of either the USSR or China, they went about it in an odd manner. Rather than embrace Titoism, which was genuine neutrality while still being communist, Ho and Giap were not interested in working with any nationalists, even Trotskyists, that were not Stalinists.

I never claimed Ho Chi Minh and North Vietnam were puppets. I said they were clients. The best example of a client state I can give is the relationship between Israel and the US. US aid to Israel is critical for its survival, but Israel goes it own way when it suits the Israelis. Patrons have influence, not control, over their clients.

Regarding US aid to France:

It started in 1950 after the beginning of the Korean War. Truman sent military advisors to help the French and began subsidizing the fight against the Vietminh. Truman had chosen to cut his losses on the Asian mainland, with the possible exception of Korea, due to the incompetence and corruption of Chiang in China. With the furor over who lost China and the subsequent North Korea invasion, the Truman administration started a policy of supporting noncommunists throughout the region.

On a side note, please be civil with disagreement. I've tried to do that by simply saying I disagree, then laying out reasons why. Anyway, enjoy and decide for yourself :P

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. You seem to have forgotten that Ho sought US aid and was refused...

...help just like Castro was refused help.

Both leaders turned to the Communists for economic and military aid after our refusal. Both became much more dogmatic in terms of Communist thinking once that decision was made.

As far as Truman sending military advisors, I've never seen that referenced before. The earliest that military advisors were sent to Vietnam was 1954 at Ike's direction, shortly after the defeat of the French army. We took our first casualty in Vietnam in 1956.

[adwon]

33. Hmm

I don't remember ever reading that Ho sought US aid. What I do remember reading is Ho requesting that America pressure France to quit recolonizing. Regardless, American policy in Asia at that point was largely tied up in China. When it became apparent that Chiang was going to lose in 1947, Truman cut bait. That combined with the tension in Iran in 1946 and the beginning of Soviet intransigence sapped the will to end colonialization.

Castro I just blame on Eisenhower. That is a clear cut case of just screwing the pooch.

Advisors were sent in 1956 to South Vietnam because the treaty required the presence of no outside forces. Ike sent some advisors, very few, to cement the relationship between Diem and the US. Information on their exact role gets really fun to find, even after 50 years :P

I thought the first American military deaths were in 1959? Or maybe you mean injuries! So much for me jumping to conclusions.

[libhill]

37. The U.S.

Not only supported the French claim to Indo China, but we also supported the Netherlands in the East Indies, and looked the other way while Britain attempted to resume her Imperial Salad days. The logic, I believe, was that European hegemony in these areas would help fend off the Communist bogey men, at little or no cost to the United States.

[adwon]

38. Fear of a vacuum of power

Anybody could step in and take over. While that's simplistic, it was the core of anticommunist policy. Considering the massive upheavals going on in Europe at the time, I don't think it was an unwarranted fear.

[kclown]

39. Don't forget that Ho petitioned Truman before Stalin

for aid against the French.

[BillZBubb]

23. To a large degree you are correct.

The North Vietnamese, like most Americans, were nationalists. They first fought for a Vietnam nation free from colonial domination. If you look at Ho Chi Minh's biography, you see he started out a dedicated nationalist, but slid into the communist camp more and more over time as the West rejected his ideas.

The Vietnamese fought and defeated the French in the North, despite US aid to the French. The French still held most of the South and this provided the basis for the partition.

But the partition was doomed to fail. The Vietnamese wanted a unified Vietnam--bad enough to fight a long and bloody war. The North/South split should never have existed it was a bad colonial era legacy. A big part of the US failure there was not understanding the national aspirations and confusing them with Vietnam being some communist puppet state.

[adwon]

34. Which biography?

[KharmaTrain]

13. Nicely Done...A Touch More

You've hit on many of the key discrepencies...that some knew at the time but a vast majority of American were kept in the dark about.

The government attempted to lie and distort what the war was about, how it was going and what our real goal there was. Sound familiar?

In 1965, the Domino theory was rampant as China had just exploded it's first nuclear weapon, Sukarno was introducing socialism into Indonesia and insurgent armies (not communist...but supplied by the Chinese) had erupted in Laos, Burma, Cambodia and Malaysia. There were concerns that all these events were some massive Moscow plot and America, still in the cold war tizzy, bought it.

In 7th grade (1968) I had a teacher who set up a Vietnam studies program (very unique for the time). We studied the war in a very objective manner...from Ho Chi Mihn's fashioning the first Vietnamese constitution in 1945 along the lines of the U.S. version to all the various tribes and ethnic groups of the region. Too bad something like this isn't being taught about Iraq. Most kids don't even know where it is until they're on the plane to Baghdad.

[chaumont58]

25. 3 books did it for me

The first was "A Bright Shining Lie. John Paul Vannn and the Vietnam experience." The second was David Hackworth's "About Face." and the last was Halberstam's "The Best and the Brightest."

[MountainLaurel]

26. Don't forget

The links between Vietnam and U.S. activities (covert and otherwise) in Cambodia and Laos.

[diamond14]

6. WAR-PROFITEERS drive the USA to war continuously....(info LINKS)

the SAME war-profiteers that made TONS OF MONEY on Vietnam, are still going strong in IRAQ today...stealing OUR money, BIG profits on war, no oversight on where the money went (afterall, you can expect any auditing....it's a WAR ! we MUST spend whatever it takes to WIN !!!)....same companies: Brown and Root (now called Halliburton), Lockhead Martin, Boeing, Dyncorp, Smith and Wesson, Dow Chemical, Dupont explosives, etc. etc....these companies make NO money unless they can LOBBY America into a WAR, for any reason at all, war-profiteers MUST HAVE WARS to continue in business and make PROFITS for their stockholders, use up their inventories, and produce MORE....so its a continuous WAR throughout MY lifetime, Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Columbia, Somalia, Lebanon, Cuba, Nicaragua, Kosovo, etc. etc.....


these war-profiteering corporations are VERY concerned about the PUBLIC's perception of the Iraq war (because WE THE PEOPLE could shut it all down in a New York minute)...so the war-profiteers figured out the BIG SCAM for Iraq....regular soldiers no longer COOK, CLEAN, or take out the garbage, do laundryn...all the business is CONTRACTED (at HUGELY BLOATED prices) to the war-profiteers, AND that means LESS regular soldiers (a LOT less, almost 60% less)...replaced by CIVILIAN contractors who THE PUBLIC never notices, and aren't added to the DEATH COUNT....so NOW, wars can continue FOREVER...perpetual WAR, because WE THE PEOPLE never feel the pain, and we see very few soldiers there, and never read the BUDGET or see a casket, or a walking wounded....without the BIG SCAM (the cheney scam), Iraq War would need at least 400,000 American Soldiers (like Vietnam) just to cook, clean, etc....and AMERICA would be in a RAGE right now...we still have 400,000 AMERICANS, but most are contractors for war-profiteers, and so low-profile that Americans don't notice at all...





WAR IS A RACKET...written in 1935
http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/racket.html


here's a good overview of the issues...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War


under the BIG photo....read "The Archives" about the Vietnam War...from the NYT...good overview....
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/saigon/

[concord]

27. Isn't there oil

off the coast of Vietnam?

[Blue_In_AK]

10. Fire in the Lake was an excellent book

I read it a long time ago.

[lonestarnot]

14. That it would NEVER end. n/t

[Hissyspit]

16. Chronology of Vietnam Involvement: Timeline posted here at DU...

Someone posted this chronology in a thread here at DU. I saved it but didn't save the URL for some reason (duh...), so I have been trying to do a search on the thread the past few minutes. Can't find it, though, so I'm pasting it into this post. Apologies to original timeline poster!

"Chronology of U.S -Vietnam Relations

1930
Indochinese Communist Party, opposed to French rule, organized by Ho Chi Minh and his followers.

1932
Bao Dai returns from France to reign as emperor of Vietnam under the French.

September, 1940
Japanese troops occupy Indochina, but allow the French to continue their colonial adminstration of the area. Japan's move into southern part of Vietnam in July 1941 sparks an oil boycott by the U.S. and Great Britain. The resulting oil shortage strengthens Japan's desire to risk war against the U.S. and Britain.

1945
An OSS (Office of Strategic Services, forerunner of the CIA) team parachutes into Ho Chi Minh's jungle camp in northern Vietnam and saves Ho Chi Minh who is ill with malaria and other tropical diseases.

August, 1945
Japan surrenders. Ho Chi Minh establishes the Viet Minh, a guerilla army. Bao Dai abdicates after a general uprising led by the Viet Minh.

September, 1945
Seven OSS officers, led by Lieutenant Colonel A. Peter Dewey, land in Saigon to liberate Allied war prisoners, search for missing Americans, and gather intelligence.

September 2, 1945
Ho Chi Minh reads Vietnam's Declaration of Independence to end 80 years of colonialism under French rule and establish the Democratic Republic of Vietnam in Hanoi. Vietnam is divided north and south.

September 26, 1945
OSS Lieutenant Dewey killed in Saigon, the first American to be killed in Vietnam. French and Vietminh spokesmen blame each other for his death.

November, 1946
Ho Chi Minh attempts to negotiate the end of colonial rule with the French without success. The French army shells Haiphong harbor in November, killing over 6,000 Vietnamese civilians, and, by December, open war between France and the Viet Minh begins.

1950
The U.S., recognizing Boa Dai's regime as legitimate, begins to subsidize the French in Vietnam; the Chinese Communists, having won their civil war in 1949, begin to supply weapons to the Viet Minh.

August 3, 1950
A U.S. Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) of 35 men arrives in Saigon. By the end of the year, the U.S. is bearing half of the cost of France's war effort in Vietnam.

May 7, 1954
The French are defeated at Dien Bien Phu. General Vo Nguyen Giap commands the Viet Minh forces. France is forced to withdraw. The French-indochina War ends. See also:

Dien Bien Phu: A Vietnamese Perspective
Dien Bien Phu: A Website of the Battle

June, 1954
The CIA establishes a military mission in Saigon. Bao Dai selects Ngo Dinh Diem as prime minster of his government.

July 20, 1954
The Geneva Conference on Indochina declares a demilitarized zone at the 17th parallel with the North under Communist rule and the South under the leadership of Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem.

October 24, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower pledges support to Diem's government and military forces.

1955
The U.S.-backed Ngo Dinh Diem organizes the Republic of Vietnam as an independent nation; declares himself president.

1956
Fighting begins between the North and the South.

July 8, 1959
The first American combat deaths in Vietnam occur when Viet Cong attack Bien Hoa billets; two servicemen are killed.


Kennedy was sworn in as president in 1961. Doh!"

[kineneb]

17. By siding with the French

we blew an opertunity to have Ho Chi Minh on our side. If I remember correctly, he made overatures to the US, and the administration could not tolerate the thought of supporting a horrid communist. So Ho went to the Chinese for help to drive the French out of Indochina.

Think of how history would have been different if we had not backed a colonial power.

[sandnsea]

18. well you know

Ho redistributed the land to the people, that just ain't capitalist-like.

Never mind we did the exact same thing after the Revolutionary War.

[rjx]

19. I did a search on google

http://vi.uh.edu/pages/buzzmat/htdtishochiminh.html

You are right. Truman ignored Ho's overtures regarding the Vietnamese Independence. So after the French left, Ho started going strong with the communist agenda.

[adwon]

20. This is a myth

Ho Chi Minh was a founding member of the French Communist Party. He was a member in good standing of the Comintern. During Stalin's purges, he lived in the USSR and toed the party line. Between 1954-1960, he consolidated his grip on North Vietnam and imported Chinese advisors to carry out a war on the peasantry under the guise of 'land reform.' Just like in China and in the USSR, especially Ukraine in the 1930s, quotas of 'landlords' to be executed were installed. Somewhere between 10k-100k people were executed on the basis of 'class.' A Soviet study, cited by Bernard B. Fall, carried out in September 1957 found that the average landlord in North Vietnam owned rice lands less than 2 acres in size. Further, on November 2, 1956, villagers in Nghe-An protested the class genocide and were witnessed by Canadian observers. The protest was quickly suppressed by the 325th Division and up to 6000 farmers were executed or deported, according to Bernard Fall.

The myth of Ho Chi Minh actually desiring American support is largely based on his borrowing from the Declaration of Independence in his proclamation of an independent Vietnam in 1945. The simple observation that all communist countries adopted the forms of democracy and played at elections, in addition to having much more liberal written constitutions than even the US, should be enough to show this myth to be false.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. No, it's not a myth, no matter how much you may want to believe it.....

Eagleton Institute of Politics
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey
<http://www.eagleton.rutgers.edu/e-gov/e-politicalarchive-Vietnam-prelude.htm>

QUOTE:

"Through the fall and winter of 1945-1946, the U.S. received a series of requests from Ho Chi Minh for intervention in Vietnam. While there was no official response to these requests, the U.S. declined to assist the French military effort, and prohibited American flag vessels from carrying troops or war materiel to Vietnam."

[adwon]

36. The myth

Refusing to get involved is a world away from 'siding with the French.' Example: Many people resent the Clinton administration and the UN for not stopping the Rwandan genocide, but nobody accuses them of having sold the Hutus the machetes.

[Redstone]

22. And siding with the French

came closer to causing America sailors to mutiny than any other incident in the history of the US Navy. dig deep, and you'll find information on this little-known incident.

Redstone

[dogman]

21. We were told we were fighting for Nationwide elections.

Elections that we would not allow because the people's choice was Ho.

[TrogL]

29. Follow the money

The Vietnam war was about profits for the industro-military complex. Any excuse would do. Any lie (or any means) was justified by the outcome.

Remind you of anything?

[FloridaPat]

32. 4 million citizens were killed by special US forces to "Vietnamize"

Vietnam and get rid of the enemy.

Now look at Iraq

[rjx]

40. Robert McNamara spoke out against the Vietnam war

Can anyone give me names of other high ranking officials involved with the war that has spoken out? Someone big spoke out about a year ago, but I can't remember who it was. I think whoever it was was about to die?

Thanks!

[diamond14]

41. mcNamara PREYED on people with disabilities...sending many to be KILLED

in Vietnam, as CANNON FODDER for his own political gain....read this and WEAP....we should never allow mcNamara to be HONORED for what he did...words are cheap....mcNamara's recruitment of disabled people tells about his REAL heinous ACTS....PREYING on those least able to defend themselves....


http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/29/mcnamara/index_np.html

McNamara's "Moron Corps"

HBO's "Path to War" leaves out some of the most shameful brainstorms of the Vietnam War's masterminds -- including a little-known recruitment program that turned the mentally and physically deficient into cannon fodder.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Myra MacPherson

-snips-


But the film spares McNamara from the deeper moral condemnation he deserves, entirely overlooking, for instance, one of his most heinous acts as the chief architect of the war -- a cynical recruitment gambit aimed at the underclass known as "Project 100,000."

By 1966, President Johnson was fearful that calling up the reserves or abolishing student deferments would further inflame war protesters and signal all-out war. And so, even after McNamara began privately declaring the war was unwinnable, the defense secretary devised Project 100,000.

Under his direction, an alternative army was systematically recruited from the ranks of those who had previously been rejected for failing to meet the armed services' physical and mental requirements. Recruiters swept through urban ghettos and Southern rural back roads, even taking at least one youth with an IQ of 62. In all, 354,000 men were rolled up by Project 100,000. Touted as a Great Society program that would provide remedial education and an escape from poverty, the recruitment program offered a one-way ticket to Vietnam, where "the Moron Corps," as they were pathetically nicknamed by other soldiers, entered combat in disproportionate numbers. Although Johnson was a vociferous civil rights advocate, the program took a heavy toll on young blacks. A 1970 Defense Department study disclosed that 41 percent of Project 100,000 recruits were black, compared with 12 percent in the armed forces as a whole. What is more, 40 percent of Project 100,000 recruits were trained for combat, compared with 25 percent for the services generally.